The #Giants have had trade discussions centered around former first-round OT Ereck Flowers, sources say. He has stayed away from voluntary workouts, and the belief is the new staff will be able to trade him for draft compensation. Could be a fresh start for all sides.
I'd be thrilled with a 5th. Addition by subtraction. He's a cancer.
Who's playing corner?
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I'd be stunned
I'd be thrilled with a 5th. Addition by subtraction. He's a cancer.
A fifth I'd jump at.
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Who's playing corner?
We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season.
Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.
The disaster's already happened. This is the aftermath.
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In comment 13927554 Sean said:
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Who's playing corner?
We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season.
They have a lot of holes to fill. One corner is the most I could see them taking. I'd give Apple another shot.
Its looming. Both macadoo and Reese saying Eric flowers is not the problem speaks volumes
It's already a disaster. Send him out and anything in return is good. He obviously doesn't want to move to RT...
Even worse than re-signing Greco?
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I'd be stunned
I'd be thrilled with a 5th. Addition by subtraction. He's a cancer.
How is he a disaster? He shown some real toughness out there, especially when he didn't miss a game with a high ankle sprain.
Attitude hasn't been his main problem, its his overall play.
It makes sense to move him now though, if you know you are not going to try to resign him. Might as well get something in return for him.
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
Even worse than re-signing Greco?
Greco showed he still had life in him. Could be the starting RG.
He appeared to have performed better the second half of the season, so theres that, despite the problem during the end of the year.
New regime. If theyre ok with moving on from him, then fine. I still feel theres usefulness to his game. Its his last contract year. I wouldnt give him away
all Reese and Ross though (Even though Coughlin seemed on board with the pick) Thank god - we have a fresh start.
That's sad.
this..but Flowers brought it on himself
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
all Reese and Ross though (Even though Coughlin seemed on board with the pick) Thank god - we have a fresh start.
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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
all Reese and Ross though (Even though Coughlin seemed on board with the pick) Thank god - we have a fresh start.
Hind sight is 20-20. There were many on BBI (including myself) that were high on this pick. Its a shame he hasn't been able to elevate his game to the NFL level, and now with his cancerous attitude its time for the team and Mr. Flowers to part company. This is just another example of the draft being a crap-shoot
I wasn't wild about the Flowers pick. But I thought the Apple pick was worse.
Both were brutal reach picks - wishing they were top ten does not make them so.
Flowers has to go especially if we are getting draft compensation - I am assuming that is why he has not shown up these past two weeks and, if so, would be a sensible conclusion to his painful tenure here. But I agree that Apple is worth giving one more shot. I actually think he will surprise us this year... if he doesn't correct both his play and attitude, then he too will be shipped out this time next year.
Eric and that's the disaster in a nutshell was you said.
This is what other teams dont have to overcome (esp if Apple is next) to lose high invested picks. And you wonder why now the Giants have struggled recently to a point.
This draft is utmost importance that I can remember now to turn the table
I never thought anything could be worse than what happened with Marvin Austin. But this would be worse. Austin was a second round pick. Flowers was the 9th pick in the draft. I'd be thrilled with a fifth.
He was the one and only one no show.
Everyone made an appearance, except for Ereck Flowers.
Thats very telling, in my opinion.
cutting Flowers isn't really an option because of the guaranteed salary, but trading him gives us 2.3 mil of cap room and whatever we get for him in trade. We eat the 2+ mil of prorated signing bonus and lose a player who would at least be a quality backup.
I would only trade him IF his attitude is horrendous or IF we get something decent in trade. I don't know what is realistic. guess it all depends on how desperate we are to dump him.
He was the one and only one no show.
Everyone made an appearance, except for Ereck Flowers.
Thats very telling, in my opinion.
Doesnt bother me at all. Its either voluntary or not, regardless of whether there was 1 no show or 10. More importantly? We might find out very soon whether or not the Giants were bothered by it
give a why bruh
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In comment 13927552 jlukes said:
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I'd be stunned
I'd be thrilled with a 5th. Addition by subtraction. He's a cancer.
A fifth I'd jump at.
I think that we are all just jaded, non-objective, and perhaps not very thinking people. There's reason to do a fresh start; there no reason to fire sale him.
The disaster is the overall drafting that brought in mostly so-so or worse players. Flowers is not a disaster by himself, but is part of the overall disaster.
I get what you're saying Eric, but that ship has sailed. He's a liability on the field. Sunk cost. Move forward without him. The last few drafts under Reese were dumpster fires, can't change the past. The franchise has probably been set back 3 years by his last couple drafts.
But doesn't change that it's a disaster. And it's more than a "couple" of drafts.
Look at this shitshow...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
the dramatic impact was 3-13. If the philosophy now is to re-tool and build tho then a QB is the pick at #2.
Link - ( New Window )
But doesn't change that it's a disaster. And it's more than a "couple" of drafts.
Look at this shitshow... https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
Oh yea... how ridiculous is that?????
We're in agreement 100%.
I don't think 'disaster' is a strong enough word.
Do you think one of us could have done a worse job evaluating the draft? I mean, how do you miss on entire drafts? SMH
RE: miscast - not sure how they decided he would be a LT, but I keep wondering if he is on wrong side of the ball. Clearly, he has the physical gifts to be in teh league, I think physically he is an elite athlete. But, those gifts are not translating into performance. I would love to see him as a DT, see how he would perform as a DT - disrupt the OLine, rush the passer. Think he might be better and happier.
This
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In comment 13927589 Andy in Boston said:
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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
all Reese and Ross though (Even though Coughlin seemed on board with the pick) Thank god - we have a fresh start.
Hind sight is 20-20. There were many on BBI (including myself) that were high on this pick. Its a shame he hasn't been able to elevate his game to the NFL level, and now with his cancerous attitude its time for the team and Mr. Flowers to part company. This is just another example of the draft being a crap-shoot
I wasn't wild about the Flowers pick. But I thought the Apple pick was worse.
You guys are forgetting the tweet from Rapoport was about Gettleman using Flowers as a bahgaining chip to move up during the draft, not about trading him away for picks outside the draft. Focus, Daniel-Sans!!
Rumored bad attitude and technique that doesn't seem to be improving.
While he gave up less sacks last season, Mcadoo was also forced to drop any pass plays that required more than a few seconds in the pocket.
Like Eric said, you remain in the dumpster when teams even have to even consider moving on from top 10 picks for peanuts.
Does anyone disagree that taking Gurley instead of Flowers would have been a much better decision? I am not at all opposed to addressing the needs on the line, but it has to be done within the confines of matching talent with value. Picking linemen just because there is a need can get you right where the Giants are now - jettisoning high draft picks in a position of need.
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this isn't really a disaster. It's actually somewhat common.
Except they had options other than tackles when they picked. The obvious one was an MVP candidate last year.
Yeah, but you can play that game six different ways. In 2016 Gurley would have been the argument for not taking a RB high.
At least apple seems willing to try to take this fresh start seriously and turn it around. Whether he does or not is a different story but at least hes there and trying
Absolutely could be
But doesn't change that it's a disaster. And it's more than a "couple" of drafts.
Look at this shitshow... https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
There was a lot of crap in those drafts. Yes, a lot of teams have trouble finding players but we really missed the boat on a number of guys.
Does anyone disagree that taking Gurley instead of Flowers would have been a much better decision? I am not at all opposed to addressing the needs on the line, but it has to be done within the confines of matching talent with value. Picking linemen just because there is a need can get you right where the Giants are now - jettisoning high draft picks in a position of need.
Agreed.
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In comment 13927611 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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this isn't really a disaster. It's actually somewhat common.
Except they had options other than tackles when they picked. The obvious one was an MVP candidate last year.
Yeah, but you can play that game six different ways. In 2016 Gurley would have been the argument for not taking a RB high.
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In comment 13927616 UberAlias said:
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In comment 13927611 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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this isn't really a disaster. It's actually somewhat common.
Except they had options other than tackles when they picked. The obvious one was an MVP candidate last year.
Yeah, but you can play that game six different ways. In 2016 Gurley would have been the argument for not taking a RB high.
I think it's pretty clear what the better option would have been.
Well yeah, everything is a lot easier with hindsight.That's how that works.
The Rams had little to lose, they sucked, they could afford to roll the dice and wait to see if the knee healed.
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In comment 13927601 Beer Man said:
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In comment 13927589 Andy in Boston said:
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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
all Reese and Ross though (Even though Coughlin seemed on board with the pick) Thank god - we have a fresh start.
Hind sight is 20-20. There were many on BBI (including myself) that were high on this pick. Its a shame he hasn't been able to elevate his game to the NFL level, and now with his cancerous attitude its time for the team and Mr. Flowers to part company. This is just another example of the draft being a crap-shoot
I wasn't wild about the Flowers pick. But I thought the Apple pick was worse.
Exactly what we see with every draft, those at BBI who love the pick and those that don't. I suspect it will be worst this year, given there are so many directions that the team can go, and so many posters with strong but differing POVs. This years draft threads have had all the passion that we used to see in the political threads.
Fans are allowed the benefit of hindsight. If a draft pick doesn't work out, or if there is a pattern of failure in draft strategy that isn't corrected - we have every right to bitch and moan about it, regardless of how high or low we were at the time the pick was made.
He tore his acl in his final season and was drafted while rehabbing. People love to play the hindsight game. Imagine the reaction if the Giants had drafted a player who was already broken.
The Rams had little to lose, they sucked, they could afford to roll the dice and wait to see if the knee healed.
The Giants get paid to figure out if Gurley's knees are an issue or if Flowers will be a great or below average prospect. In fact, there were many reports on Flowers regarding his technique issues before he was drafted. Reese ignored them. Thats not hindsight. Its poor decision-making.
Both he and Ross gave the were professionals at this, youre a bunch of idiots / amateurs
How about if someone compares Giants 7 round mocks from the last 10 years to the actual drafts?
I'm not sure that is possible :-)
now under new regime Flowers was relieved of his starting job before he could fight for job and is a no show ..at voluntary training..
how is this Reese's fault ? last time I checked he no longer works for Giants.
Flowers has to be paid $2.4 million for the 2018 season.
That makes his draft pick value to the Giants a lower return.
if I was in this situation - why would I show up to voluntary training with my soon to be former team..?
Why would we cut him if we could trade him?
The Giants get paid to figure out if Gurley's knees are an issue or if Flowers will be a great or below average prospect. In fact, there were many reports on Flowers regarding his technique issues before he was drafted. Reese ignored them. Thats not hindsight. Its poor decision-making.
Sure, that's accurate. And executives are paid with the understanding that sometimes they get it wrong
In comment 13927742 Brown Recluse said:
In fact, there were many reports on Flowers regarding his technique issues before he was drafted.
Sure, that's accurate.
In comment 13927742 Brown Recluse said:
Reese ignored them. Thats not hindsight. Its poor decision-making..
Or, what happens in literally every NFL draft process, acts on opinions of coaches. It's the same thing that's happening with Josh Allen. "Yes, player X needs improvement at ___, ___, and ___. With the proper coaching, he can become ____".
He's already a disaster...
Not sure you can view the situation any other way.
Yes he was..He was the next pick..
His attitude reeks of entitlement and fosters a toxic culture. DG is doing what he has to do at this point.
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on the board when Flowers was selected? Just wondering. Maybe you guys could mention it 3,000 times a day for the rest of our bloody lives just so I'm clear on the matter?
Yes he was..He was the next pick..
So you're saying he was the next pick then? This Gurley fella is pretty good I've been told.
Flowers has to be paid $2.4 million for the 2018 season.
That makes his draft pick value to the Giants a lower return.
CLE
CHI
NE
CLE
CHI
NE
Sy, very nice job on MSG network last night. A friend of mine was also on the show, although it looked like they cut most of his material. He's the Producer for GMFB.
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is a team that has a LT in place, but one that could be moved if somebody came in and won the job. A few teams in that camp:
CLE
CHI
NE
Sy, very nice job on MSG network last night. A friend of mine was also on the show, although it looked like they cut most of his material. He's the Producer for GMFB.
That was a first time thing for me...not sure how much I like being on camera or how good I am at it...ha. Was fun though...Orlovsky is a great listen
what??
one player got a clean slate .. the other lost his starting job
seriously you can argue that Flowers isn't a good player but you can say that his reaction to what Giants have done to him since new regime can into place - shows he is a malcontent .
Sweeten a trade deal that gives us more than a '19 1st, IF, they are a trade partner; maybe get more from '18, or get a '19 3rd + the 1 there.
Negative: The Giants drafted a right tackle with a top 10 pick. They desperately drafted two safeties in a very weak draft at that position, actually spending four picks to do so. The team also drafted a defensive end with a bad hip, a wide receiver who had trouble separating from collegiate defensive backs, and a guard who cant run.
Positive: The Giants drafted three players who many thought could have gone in the first round. In what was widely considered to be a weak draft class, the Giants drafted two immediate starters in offensive tackle Ereck Flowers and strong safety Landon Collins and possible eventual starters in defensive end Owamagbe Odighizuwa and free safety Mykkele Thompson.
I am going to lean towards the positive interpretation for this draft. If you told me before the draft that the Giants would come out with Flowers, Collins, and Odighizuwa, I would have said you were crazy. Even some of the most critical NYG fans were giving New York an A after the first two days of the draft. Day 3 left a bad taste with many, but regardless of how you feel about that day, it should not erase the fact that the Giants drafted three players who should have both an immediate and a long-term impact on the franchise.
Before we get into the pros and cons of the Giants first three players, lets take a higher-level look at what these three players bring to the table: TOUGHNESS. Whether NYG fans want to admit it or not, the New York Giants since 2011 have not been a very tough or physical team. This is best demonstrated by their shoddy ability to run the ball and stop the run. But really, the issue has been even deeper than that. This is a team that has folded in some games after it got punched in the mouth. Ereck Flowers, Landon Collins, and Owamagbe Odighizuwa wont put up with that shit. This team just got a lot tougher on both sides of the football. New York Giants are supposed to be tough. End of story.
OT Ereck Flowers, 66, 329 pounds, 5.35, University of Miami
To be blunt, the team had to come out of this draft with a rookie starter on the offensive line. Thats why it was almost guaranteed that the Giants were going to draft Brandon Scherff, Ereck Flowers, Andrus Peat, or Lael Collins (pre-off-the-field issue). The Giants were clearly targeting Scherff, but were not surprised to see him drafted before they picked. Unless WR Amari Cooper somehow landed in their lap, it was going to be Scherff or Flowers. Now the big question here is were the Giants forced to reach for Flowers because their desperate need on the offensive line? Many who liked Flowers did not consider him a top 10 pick. Top 20 or 30, but not top 10. These people suggest that the Giants may have been better off drafting RB Todd Gurley, DT Danny Shelton, or WR Devante Parker. A few made a case for CB Trae Waynes. But all four of those players had their warts too: Gurley the ACL, Shelton being one dimensional, Parkers mental make-up, and the grabiness of Waynes in coverage.
For weeks leading up to the draft, I thought that unless wideouts Amari Cooper or Kevin White fell to the Giants, from a value-need perspective, the pick was obviously going to be an offensive lineman. Scherff, Flowers, Peat, and Collins were all widely regarded as being worthy first round draft picks. All signs pointed to one of these four. The question really become, which one? The Redskins took Scherff out of the equation. Tragic circumstances took Collins out of the equation. So it came down to Flowers versus Peat. Each has their advocates. Peat is the smoother, more technically-sound left tackle; Flowers the meaner, more physical one. Most assume Peat will be an NFL left tackle; Flowers may be limited to right tackle (though the Giants dont share this view). If I were making the pick, it would have been a coin flip between Peat and Flowers. Im just glad the Giants got one of them. As I said, they needed to come out of this draft with an immediate starter on the offensive line. And they were fortunate that in this case, the value seemed to match up with the need. My only reservation? I do wonder if they missed out on a special player in Gurley. That said, this draft was simply too important for the Giants to screw up. They could not afford to take the risk on Gurleys knee. The responsible pick was the offensive lineman.
Ereck Flowers brings size, strength, toughness, and nastiness to an offensive line that needed all four of those attributes. He looks born to play right tackle in the NFL and the combination of Flowers and Geoff Schwartz will give the Giants almost 700 pounds of beef on the right side of the line. Flowers biggest negative technique is correctable. You cant teach size, athletic ability, or toughness. Moreover, if the Giants are right and Flowers can eventually be a franchise left tackle, then there is no arguing against this pick. But it will be interesting to track the careers of Flowers versus Peat.
I guess Reese liked Flowers just as much as most others when the pick was made?
BBI Draft Review 2015... but yeah, let's shit on the guy for making a pick that most liked at the time... - ( New Window )
I'm also fairly certain that they wanted Flowers to come in and compete to start at RT.
They were both given an opportunity to come in and compete - which, with their performance over the past 2 years, was an attempt by the new regime to start over and give them a chance to redeem themselves.
Apple appears to have taken it.
Flowers appears to want to sulk at home.
A fifth round draft pick would be a dream come true...
Flowers is a HORRIBLE LT who we are now thinking of moving to RT or G, assuming he can beat out guys. This "i don't want to lose a young player" bla bla bla is crap. He is a VET, regardless of age and he has not improved much at all.
On top of that he was (or has been indicated he was) a locker room issue last year.
Bye bye Flowers.
He appeared to have performed better the second half of the season, so theres that, despite the problem during the end of the year.
New regime. If theyre ok with moving on from him, then fine. I still feel theres usefulness to his game. Its his last contract year. I wouldnt give him away
^^^ This. I'm all for giving him a shot at RG.
That is the challenge with this organization. They waste too much time on some guys. It was apparent to quite a few that he was not going to pan out and was given enough opportunity. You are correct about disaster, as it will set us back in a very troubled area of this roster.
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In comment 13927611 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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this isn't really a disaster. It's actually somewhat common.
Except they had options other than tackles when they picked. The obvious one was an MVP candidate last year.
Yeah, but you can play that game six different ways. In 2016 Gurley would have been the argument for not taking a RB high.
There is only one way to play the draft - take the best player available and stop the madness of drafting for need... Our needing a good offensive lineman never made Ereck Flowers a good offensive lineman... Very easy to sign free agents to fill holes. Top ten draft picks need to be transcendent talents irrespective of position.
In comment 13927742 Brown Recluse said:
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Reese ignored them. Thats not hindsight. Its poor decision-making..
Or, what happens in literally every NFL draft process, acts on opinions of coaches. It's the same thing that's happening with Josh Allen. "Yes, player X needs improvement at ___, ___, and ___. With the proper coaching, he can become ____".
It doesn't matter. The point is that Reese went away from his philosophy of taking the best player available. His drafting was a failure. The pattern is clear. Thats why he is gone. Hindsight? I mean, no shit. There are some cases where its hindsight. But this was just a poor decision. Part of a pattern of poor decisions.
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In comment 13927554 Sean said:
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Who's playing corner?
We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season.
"You don't give up on talent." --Dave Gettleman. Apple is a 21-year-old kid with a complicated family life. Let's not write him off so cavalierly.
With all that said, this is a message board, so to the extent we can shoot the shit about what we "think" about a draft is perfectly fine. I would be careful before you rub that in someone's face. As long as people realize that the draft posts and grades are simply guesses, it should not remove the hindsight of actually making a judgment on how the draft came out.
They've handled him very poorly... gave Flowers No Help in 2016---they don't run or Cover him with a TE...no help ever. The team collapsed in 2017---and he was hung out to dry as a major reason. The Pressure...The Criticism...yeah--he probably needs a new start.
It's been an incredibly public stoning of this guy--- he's not at fault for being the #9 Pick. He's showed up and played....and He has battled.
I'd rather see them find a way to save him....he has talent.
...is probably a good idea.
No, make that a great idea.
Fresh start for him; fresh start for the Giants.
the dude is an iron man, comparatively speaking, at least he can stay on the field, which is a lot more than some of the other stiff trotted out there
With all that said, this is a message board, so to the extent we can shoot the shit about what we "think" about a draft is perfectly fine. I would be careful before you rub that in someone's face. As long as people realize that the draft posts and grades are simply guesses, it should not remove the hindsight of actually making a judgment on how the draft came out.
IMO, the 'issue' is many of the same folks who applauded the pick at the time are now... with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how the pick turned out... using that as a way to further bury a guy who, for reasons unknown (I guess?), can't seem to garner the same amount of respect as the guy who coached this team for a majority of the past 10 years when they both helped to deliver to championships to this franchise. You can't applaud the pick and then a few years later use the pick that YOU applauded as an indictment on the guy who actually made the pick. Please...
For anyone that didn't like the pick when it was made... I can respect that because at least you're not faking it now as if you had a problem with the pick or player since he was drafted. But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever...
Nobody would give up that prospect and lower salary to bring in Flowers. Hes a bust.
Matt Lombardo
Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
12s13 seconds ago
Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isnt here. Theres not much to say. Its voluntary, Im of the feeling its very necessary. #Giants
You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment.
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In comment 13927555 jeff57 said:
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In comment 13927554 Sean said:
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Who's playing corner?
We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season.
"You don't give up on talent." --Dave Gettleman. Apple is a 21-year-old kid with a complicated family life. Let's not write him off so cavalierly.
I disagree with your point.. Stop quoting DG as if it is gospel. His comment while valid also doesn't take into account if the player's attitude and mental performance (ie quitting on the field) far outweigh his ability and potential. New regime, new attitude and Apple is questionable talent at best.
Flowers was always a reach as a top 10 pick, but that shouldn't have made him a bad player. I'd like to see how he does on the right side with a competent blocking scheme.
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But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever...
You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment.
And I'm sure that's what Reese thought he was getting as well when he made the pick.
In all my years on this site I can't think of anyone else who's been talked about as badly as Reese has... this includes Handley. The guy played a major part in bringing two championships here and yet you have some posters asking how he was able to help bring those championships here considering his draft record over the past several years and ready to give credit to EVERYONE else who had anything to do with the team during that time period EXCEPT him. And a lot of it is coming from the very same people who if you give even the slightest critique of Coughlin or Eli they attack like a bunch of crazed dogs.
I get some of the anger and resentment... which is why I don't go on every single post that has any criticism of Reese on it and try defending the man (unlike what happens if you so much as mention a Coughlin coaching error or Eli interception). But it seems like every other day there's some new and creative way to say 'Reese sucks!'.
Matt Lombardo
Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
12s13 seconds ago
Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isnt here. Theres not much to say. Its voluntary, Im of the feeling its very necessary. #Giants
I had begun to believe that the Giants front office was requesting that Flowers stay away as it was likely that he would be traded. Shurmur would not be saying this if this was in fact the case...
So it is indeed what we cynically suspected - it is Flowers being Flowers. We simply have to find a willing trade partner asap...
And, what a shock, he can't play tackle. He's been moved to guard. The saints lucked out by getting a pro bowl left tackle in the third round.
Matt Lombardo
Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
18s18 seconds ago
Olivier Vernon throws a monkeywrench into the whole thing. Says he saw Ereck Flowers in the building today. 🤷��♂️#Giants
Matt Lombardo
Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
18s18 seconds ago
Olivier Vernon throws a monkeywrench into the whole thing. Says he saw Ereck Flowers in the building today. 🤷��♂️#Giants
Was it Ereck Flowers or a potted flower?
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In comment 13928024 T-Bone said:
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But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever...
You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment.
And I'm sure that's what Reese thought he was getting as well when he made the pick.
In all my years on this site I can't think of anyone else who's been talked about as badly as Reese has... this includes Handley. The guy played a major part in bringing two championships here and yet you have some posters asking how he was able to help bring those championships here considering his draft record over the past several years and ready to give credit to EVERYONE else who had anything to do with the team during that time period EXCEPT him. And a lot of it is coming from the very same people who if you give even the slightest critique of Coughlin or Eli they attack like a bunch of crazed dogs.
I get some of the anger and resentment... which is why I don't go on every single post that has any criticism of Reese on it and try defending the man (unlike what happens if you so much as mention a Coughlin coaching error or Eli interception). But it seems like every other day there's some new and creative way to say 'Reese sucks!'.
Reeses first 4 years were lauded as being Newsome-worthy
Pat Leonard
Verified account @PLeonardNYDN
Pat Leonard Retweeted Pat Leonard
Im told that Olivier Vernon was joking. Seriously. Flowers isnt here. #Giants
But some of the shit I've seen on here is over the top and it's almost like some want to completely erase what accomplishments the man had while he was in charge here. The man was bad enough his last few years here that shit doesn't need to be made up nor does his past accomplishments need to either be belittled or attributed to someone else.
Pat Leonard
Verified account @PLeonardNYDN
Pat Leonard Retweeted Pat Leonard
Im told that Olivier Vernon was joking. Seriously. Flowers isnt here. #Giants
Pat The Weasel is already getting clowned by Giants. That's what happens when you slander teammates to generate clicks all offseason.
I think it was Matt Lombardo who was "burned".
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There is a negative way and a positive way to look at the New York Giants 2015 NFL Draft class:
Negative: The Giants drafted a right tackle with a top 10 pick. They desperately drafted two safeties in a very weak draft at that position, actually spending four picks to do so. The team also drafted a defensive end with a bad hip, a wide receiver who had trouble separating from collegiate defensive backs, and a guard who cant run.
Positive: The Giants drafted three players who many thought could have gone in the first round. In what was widely considered to be a weak draft class, the Giants drafted two immediate starters in offensive tackle Ereck Flowers and strong safety Landon Collins and possible eventual starters in defensive end Owamagbe Odighizuwa and free safety Mykkele Thompson.
I am going to lean towards the positive interpretation for this draft. If you told me before the draft that the Giants would come out with Flowers, Collins, and Odighizuwa, I would have said you were crazy. Even some of the most critical NYG fans were giving New York an A after the first two days of the draft. Day 3 left a bad taste with many, but regardless of how you feel about that day, it should not erase the fact that the Giants drafted three players who should have both an immediate and a long-term impact on the franchise.
Before we get into the pros and cons of the Giants first three players, lets take a higher-level look at what these three players bring to the table: TOUGHNESS. Whether NYG fans want to admit it or not, the New York Giants since 2011 have not been a very tough or physical team. This is best demonstrated by their shoddy ability to run the ball and stop the run. But really, the issue has been even deeper than that. This is a team that has folded in some games after it got punched in the mouth. Ereck Flowers, Landon Collins, and Owamagbe Odighizuwa wont put up with that shit. This team just got a lot tougher on both sides of the football. New York Giants are supposed to be tough. End of story.
OT Ereck Flowers, 66, 329 pounds, 5.35, University of Miami
To be blunt, the team had to come out of this draft with a rookie starter on the offensive line. Thats why it was almost guaranteed that the Giants were going to draft Brandon Scherff, Ereck Flowers, Andrus Peat, or Lael Collins (pre-off-the-field issue). The Giants were clearly targeting Scherff, but were not surprised to see him drafted before they picked. Unless WR Amari Cooper somehow landed in their lap, it was going to be Scherff or Flowers. Now the big question here is were the Giants forced to reach for Flowers because their desperate need on the offensive line? Many who liked Flowers did not consider him a top 10 pick. Top 20 or 30, but not top 10. These people suggest that the Giants may have been better off drafting RB Todd Gurley, DT Danny Shelton, or WR Devante Parker. A few made a case for CB Trae Waynes. But all four of those players had their warts too: Gurley the ACL, Shelton being one dimensional, Parkers mental make-up, and the grabiness of Waynes in coverage.
For weeks leading up to the draft, I thought that unless wideouts Amari Cooper or Kevin White fell to the Giants, from a value-need perspective, the pick was obviously going to be an offensive lineman. Scherff, Flowers, Peat, and Collins were all widely regarded as being worthy first round draft picks. All signs pointed to one of these four. The question really become, which one? The Redskins took Scherff out of the equation. Tragic circumstances took Collins out of the equation. So it came down to Flowers versus Peat. Each has their advocates. Peat is the smoother, more technically-sound left tackle; Flowers the meaner, more physical one. Most assume Peat will be an NFL left tackle; Flowers may be limited to right tackle (though the Giants dont share this view). If I were making the pick, it would have been a coin flip between Peat and Flowers. Im just glad the Giants got one of them. As I said, they needed to come out of this draft with an immediate starter on the offensive line. And they were fortunate that in this case, the value seemed to match up with the need. My only reservation? I do wonder if they missed out on a special player in Gurley. That said, this draft was simply too important for the Giants to screw up. They could not afford to take the risk on Gurleys knee. The responsible pick was the offensive lineman.
Ereck Flowers brings size, strength, toughness, and nastiness to an offensive line that needed all four of those attributes. He looks born to play right tackle in the NFL and the combination of Flowers and Geoff Schwartz will give the Giants almost 700 pounds of beef on the right side of the line. Flowers biggest negative technique is correctable. You cant teach size, athletic ability, or toughness. Moreover, if the Giants are right and Flowers can eventually be a franchise left tackle, then there is no arguing against this pick. But it will be interesting to track the careers of Flowers versus Peat.
I guess Reese liked Flowers just as much as most others when the pick was made? BBI Draft Review 2015... but yeah, let's shit on the guy for making a pick that most liked at the time... - ( New Window )
I can honestly say I was against then and still am. He was never going to be a good LT. I remember being in like at Dicks buying some stuff for my daughter after her soccer game earlier (as we were seeing a movie shortly after and she needed a change of shirt) and when the selection came up I was so disappointed.
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There is a negative way and a positive way to look at the New York Giants 2015 NFL Draft class:
Negative: The Giants drafted a right tackle with a top 10 pick. They desperately drafted two safeties in a very weak draft at that position, actually spending four picks to do so. The team also drafted a defensive end with a bad hip, a wide receiver who had trouble separating from collegiate defensive backs, and a guard who cant run.
Positive: The Giants drafted three players who many thought could have gone in the first round. In what was widely considered to be a weak draft class, the Giants drafted two immediate starters in offensive tackle Ereck Flowers and strong safety Landon Collins and possible eventual starters in defensive end Owamagbe Odighizuwa and free safety Mykkele Thompson.
I am going to lean towards the positive interpretation for this draft. If you told me before the draft that the Giants would come out with Flowers, Collins, and Odighizuwa, I would have said you were crazy. Even some of the most critical NYG fans were giving New York an A after the first two days of the draft. Day 3 left a bad taste with many, but regardless of how you feel about that day, it should not erase the fact that the Giants drafted three players who should have both an immediate and a long-term impact on the franchise.
Before we get into the pros and cons of the Giants first three players, lets take a higher-level look at what these three players bring to the table: TOUGHNESS. Whether NYG fans want to admit it or not, the New York Giants since 2011 have not been a very tough or physical team. This is best demonstrated by their shoddy ability to run the ball and stop the run. But really, the issue has been even deeper than that. This is a team that has folded in some games after it got punched in the mouth. Ereck Flowers, Landon Collins, and Owamagbe Odighizuwa wont put up with that shit. This team just got a lot tougher on both sides of the football. New York Giants are supposed to be tough. End of story.
OT Ereck Flowers, 66, 329 pounds, 5.35, University of Miami
To be blunt, the team had to come out of this draft with a rookie starter on the offensive line. Thats why it was almost guaranteed that the Giants were going to draft Brandon Scherff, Ereck Flowers, Andrus Peat, or Lael Collins (pre-off-the-field issue). The Giants were clearly targeting Scherff, but were not surprised to see him drafted before they picked. Unless WR Amari Cooper somehow landed in their lap, it was going to be Scherff or Flowers. Now the big question here is were the Giants forced to reach for Flowers because their desperate need on the offensive line? Many who liked Flowers did not consider him a top 10 pick. Top 20 or 30, but not top 10. These people suggest that the Giants may have been better off drafting RB Todd Gurley, DT Danny Shelton, or WR Devante Parker. A few made a case for CB Trae Waynes. But all four of those players had their warts too: Gurley the ACL, Shelton being one dimensional, Parkers mental make-up, and the grabiness of Waynes in coverage.
For weeks leading up to the draft, I thought that unless wideouts Amari Cooper or Kevin White fell to the Giants, from a value-need perspective, the pick was obviously going to be an offensive lineman. Scherff, Flowers, Peat, and Collins were all widely regarded as being worthy first round draft picks. All signs pointed to one of these four. The question really become, which one? The Redskins took Scherff out of the equation. Tragic circumstances took Collins out of the equation. So it came down to Flowers versus Peat. Each has their advocates. Peat is the smoother, more technically-sound left tackle; Flowers the meaner, more physical one. Most assume Peat will be an NFL left tackle; Flowers may be limited to right tackle (though the Giants dont share this view). If I were making the pick, it would have been a coin flip between Peat and Flowers. Im just glad the Giants got one of them. As I said, they needed to come out of this draft with an immediate starter on the offensive line. And they were fortunate that in this case, the value seemed to match up with the need. My only reservation? I do wonder if they missed out on a special player in Gurley. That said, this draft was simply too important for the Giants to screw up. They could not afford to take the risk on Gurleys knee. The responsible pick was the offensive lineman.
Ereck Flowers brings size, strength, toughness, and nastiness to an offensive line that needed all four of those attributes. He looks born to play right tackle in the NFL and the combination of Flowers and Geoff Schwartz will give the Giants almost 700 pounds of beef on the right side of the line. Flowers biggest negative technique is correctable. You cant teach size, athletic ability, or toughness. Moreover, if the Giants are right and Flowers can eventually be a franchise left tackle, then there is no arguing against this pick. But it will be interesting to track the careers of Flowers versus Peat.
I guess Reese liked Flowers just as much as most others when the pick was made? BBI Draft Review 2015... but yeah, let's shit on the guy for making a pick that most liked at the time... - ( New Window )
I can honestly say I was against then and still am. He was never going to be a good LT. I remember being in like at Dicks buying some stuff for my daughter after her soccer game earlier (as we were seeing a movie shortly after and she needed a change of shirt) and when the selection came up I was so disappointed.
I have no reason to doubt your word... but back then you were in a very small minority with that feeling.
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Giants coach Pat Shurmur acknowledges the absence of Ereck Flowers from minicamp: Hes not here, so theres not really much to say.
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He appeared to have performed better the second half of the season, so theres that, despite the problem during the end of the year.
New regime. If theyre ok with moving on from him, then fine. I still feel theres usefulness to his game. Its his last contract year. I wouldnt give him away
He actually had a really good 2nd half. I remember reading he went like 8 straight games without allowing a sack, maybe more.
I know the majority won't agree with your opinion but I do somewhat. The deal breaker for me would be attitude. Is he skipping these workouts as an FU for replacing him at LT. If so the only choice may be to dump him rather than have a disgruntled player.
Other GM: Done, but only if you remove Flowers from the deal...
This talk of 7th round or release him is stupid.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
Well stated!
Now... show me where he's been praised for his successes.
*insert Jeopardy tune here*
This talk of 7th round or release him is stupid.
Getting a 2nd or 3rd for this guy is hard to envision.
My best guess is that some team might be sweet-talked into surrendering a late 5th as the final piece in a much larger deal.
But a 2nd or 3rd? Wow... that would be great!
This talk of 7th round or release him is stupid.
Then you're not trading him because no one in the NFL is giving you a third or second for this guy.
And he's only signed for this year.....best you'd get is a 6 or 7 IMO, if that..........
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Giants have the rights to him. He was their starting left tackle for 3 years and while he was not great...he has value. He is 23 years old. I don't trade him for less that a third round pick, maybe a second.
This talk of 7th round or release him is stupid.
Then you're not trading him because no one in the NFL is giving you a third or second for this guy.
And he's only signed for this year.....best you'd get is a 6 or 7 IMO, if that..........
You may get a conditional mid-round pick depending upon on much he plays for the team he's traded to.
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Had we the same resources that NFL teams do to these college prospects, you could use the benefit of hindsight as some reason why we shouldn't be so hard on poor Jerry. But all most of us have are the games we watch on TV, and whatever we're fed from the media with scouting reports and such.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
Well stated!
Now... show me where he's been praised for his successes.
*insert Jeopardy tune here*
He drafted some good players and signed some good free agents. But overall it was a mixed bag. I'm not sure what more you're looking for. Its just the truth. Nicks, Manningham, JPP, Steve Smith, Beckham - I'm sure there are more. Good draft picks. We can praise him for those successes all day, but he's also going to get slammed for failing to build his roster through the draft (which is more important anyway.) I'm not sure what more you expect. He just wasn't that good. The results speak for themselves.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
You can have this take and also realize that nobody anywhere in the league is immune to draft mistakes. If Reese was the only guy to swing and miss at draft picks, by all means, have a field day. That isn't the case. Name a GM you consider excellent, and there is plenty of failure on his draft report card.
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.
He is in name only. Accorsi put together the bulk of the 2007 team, and a lot of those guys were on the 2011 team as well. Yes, Reese was part of the organization when Accorsi was there, but you can really see a sharp decline in the quality of overall drafts as soon as he took the GM chair. He hit on some picks here or there, particularly in rounds 1 and 2, but was pretty awful for the most part in rounds 3-7.
In comment 13927975 Russ in Queens, NYC said:
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still be a valuable back-up and still might develop, albeit in an ORT role. He is allowed to pass on VOLUNTARY stuff and shouldnt be ostracized for it, otherwise have the NFLPA agree to remove the voluntary from their agreements.
He appeared to have performed better the second half of the season, so theres that, despite the problem during the end of the year.
New regime. If theyre ok with moving on from him, then fine. I still feel theres usefulness to his game. Its his last contract year. I wouldnt give him away
^^^ This. I'm all for giving him a shot at RG.
He can be a starter, and has improved, but I don't see a team looking at him as anything more than a gamble. Just like a 6th or 7th rounder. I don't see many looking at the situation and saying to themselves, "yeah, I can fix him".
Seriously? Barry Cofield (2006 round 4). Justin Tuck (2005 round 3). Brandon Jacobs (2005, round 4). Reggie Torbor (2004, round 4). Fibrillation Wilson (2004, round 5). David Diehl (2003, round 5). David Tyree (2003, round 6). Its not about superstars, its that Accorsi was able to find key contributors in mid and late rounds. Reese rarely found anyone beyond round 2, which is why we are always an injury or two away from sucking every year because we have no depth. Look at the cash he laid out for special teams guys the last few years. Those should be mid and late round draft picks.
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In comment 13928324 Brown Recluse said:
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Had we the same resources that NFL teams do to these college prospects, you could use the benefit of hindsight as some reason why we shouldn't be so hard on poor Jerry. But all most of us have are the games we watch on TV, and whatever we're fed from the media with scouting reports and such.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
Well stated!
Now... show me where he's been praised for his successes.
*insert Jeopardy tune here*
He drafted some good players and signed some good free agents. But overall it was a mixed bag. I'm not sure what more you're looking for. Its just the truth. Nicks, Manningham, JPP, Steve Smith, Beckham - I'm sure there are more. Good draft picks. We can praise him for those successes all day, but he's also going to get slammed for failing to build his roster through the draft (which is more important anyway.) I'm not sure what more you expect. He just wasn't that good. The results speak for themselves.
He was good enough to play a major role in bringing two Super Bowl championships here... which is a lot more than what, 90% of the NFL GMs currently employed can say?
In case you're still not sure what I'm looking for? One word... balance.
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We weren't exactly rolling out waves of young talent before then.
Seriously? Barry Cofield (2006 round 4). Justin Tuck (2005 round 3). Brandon Jacobs (2005, round 4). Reggie Torbor (2004, round 4). Fibrillation Wilson (2004, round 5). David Diehl (2003, round 5). David Tyree (2003, round 6). Its not about superstars, its that Accorsi was able to find key contributors in mid and late rounds. Reese rarely found anyone beyond round 2, which is why we are always an injury or two away from sucking every year because we have no depth. Look at the cash he laid out for special teams guys the last few years. Those should be mid and late round draft picks.
Gibril Wilson, lol, stupid auto correct.
Still not sure what I'm looking for?
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We have no idea what we will get from the draft, and if you draft someone, that means nothing until you see them actually play.....
You try Flowers at RT/G, and if you have something better, then you dangle him out there.....
This OL is a shambles, with only two positions locked in thus far.....if Jerry is considered the third, good grief....
This is a contract year for Flowers, and he should realize that......he won't be back with the Giants, but he wants that future contract with someone else....to think otherwise, would be stupid in throwing away millions on a future contract....
When you look at how the whole line played last year, why was Solari given a pass? He made absolutely no attempt to change Flower's technique....he is supposedly, a big strong guy.....yet I never saw a play where he attacked anyone in pass protection....he was constantly backing up right at the snap....Ever watch JPP when he was neutralized? Hit right at the line and he had no momentum to do anything....never saw Flowers attempt that move.....never saw any attempt to change his technique.....not saying Solari is the reason for Flower's failure, but it sure looks like he was a part of it, along with the failure of the rest of the line.....to see those bozo's on the right side of the line not be able to handle a simple stunt week after week, I would have benched Solari....
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Had we the same resources that NFL teams do to these college prospects, you could use the benefit of hindsight as some reason why we shouldn't be so hard on poor Jerry. But all most of us have are the games we watch on TV, and whatever we're fed from the media with scouting reports and such.
NFL teams go to these college games. They break down tape. They interview these players and take them to dinner and meet their coaches, BFF's, teammates, and their mommas. They do everything they can to analyze physical skills, maturity, intelligence, etc etc.
It doesn't matter at all what we think about their draft decisions at the time they are made because we don't have the resources and knowledge to accurately grade them. Sure, everyone has an opinion - but they are more or less based off of second-hand information and the hope that everything will work out.
The Giants are in the business of entertainment. And if that entertainment doesn't mean a certain standard, they have every right to be criticized and judged for their mistakes - as much as they deserve to be praised for their sucesses. The only thing fans care about are results. That is part of the job.
You can have this take and also realize that nobody anywhere in the league is immune to draft mistakes. If Reese was the only guy to swing and miss at draft picks, by all means, have a field day. That isn't the case. Name a GM you consider excellent, and there is plenty of failure on his draft report card.
No one said anything about a GM having to be perfect or infallible to mistakes. Completely off topic.
Gilbride and Coughlin were the first two scapegoats, and then Reese finally got the ax. Reese always had a knack for picking WRs and was pretty good at the defensive line aside from Marvin Austin. But man, he couldnt draft an offensive lineman to save his ass. And it wasnt for lack of effort. Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, thats some serious draft capital. The decline of the offensive line destroyed Gilbrides offense, that scheme relied heavily on being able to run and long developing pass plays. The Coughlin situation was just unfortunate, I felt like everyone knew it was Reese, yet he got a pass.
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Matt Lombardo
Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
12s13 seconds ago
Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isnt here. Theres not much to say. Its voluntary, Im of the feeling its very necessary. #Giants
I had begun to believe that the Giants front office was requesting that Flowers stay away as it was likely that he would be traded. Shurmur would not be saying this if this was in fact the case...
So it is indeed what we cynically suspected - it is Flowers being Flowers. We simply have to find a willing trade partner asap...
The trouble is that the Giants have had little success with picks after the 2nd round, and recently neither of them. Probably a 4th rounder at best.
At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot.
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finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-).
Thoguht Flaherty was pretty well respected on the board. He'd been an O-line coach for a while, he just had garbage to work with.
At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot.
There were alot of people here who couldn't wait to dump Flaherty, and were singing when Solari got hired. They know who they are.
I agree from a perceived value perspective, but it seems like Flowers has checked out so he is quickly becoming a worthless asset. I would take anything for him at this point, Im amazed they think they can trade him.
What 5-year period are you referring to with "no hits"?
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In comment 13928495 Victor in CT said:
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finally rid us of the dreaded Flaherty? And weren't those people right! Look at the shit job Flaherty did in JAX last year ;-).
Thoguht Flaherty was pretty well respected on the board. He'd been an O-line coach for a while, he just had garbage to work with.
At this point, I don't see the benefit of moving Flowers for a 6th or 5th round pick. Those players are less likely to pan out than Flowers is to turn it around. Rather just give Flowers one final shot.
There were alot of people here who couldn't wait to dump Flaherty, and were singing when Solari got hired. They know who they are.
He had a track record of successfully putting out quality offensive lines just like Flaherty did. What's the point of casting the guy as a hack?
Likeo OBJ (had no concern about his height in WCO) and JPP.
Please consult me on your next first round pick Mara.
OK I admit I wanted us to trade up to take Warmack or Fluke XD
I also want to see Flowers somewhere other than LT and see if that changes anything. I don't see how a 5th round pick is worth not finding out if our former #9 overall OL can contribute in some capacity to this new regime's plan.
I understand, the thing about Flowers for me was that he was never going to be a LT. He just always looked awkward to me. I really was not happy with the choice. Just felt he was a round peg square hole choice.
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We weren't exactly rolling out waves of young talent before then.
Seriously? Barry Cofield (2006 round 4). Justin Tuck (2005 round 3). Brandon Jacobs (2005, round 4). Reggie Torbor (2004, round 4). Fibrillation Wilson (2004, round 5). David Diehl (2003, round 5). David Tyree (2003, round 6). Its not about superstars, its that Accorsi was able to find key contributors in mid and late rounds. Reese rarely found anyone beyond round 2, which is why we are always an injury or two away from sucking every year because we have no depth. Look at the cash he laid out for special teams guys the last few years. Those should be mid and late round draft picks.
Ron Dayne? Will Allen? Tim Carter? William Joseph?
That's three blown first round picks and a blown second round pick in back to back to back years.
If you could somehow combine Reese's ability to draft in rounds 1 and 2 with accorsi's ability to draft after round 3, you'd have the GM of your dreams. Credit accorsi with being able to draft guys that stay in the league at the lower levels, but his record in rounds 1 and 2 is what?
There's plenty to get on Accorsi about, and it would be a mischaracterization to suggest the Giants had some talent pipeline that reese came along and ruined.
Ehh...we can and will recover. Kennard was a good or even very good draft pick and he left as a FA. Flowers could have kicked butt and then we'd have given him Solder's contract.
Don't get too melodramatic. Move on. Shit, some people want to move Beckham who is fantastic. Flowers didn't work out here but at least he won't struggle under a bigger and more costly second contract.
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.
Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years?
No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end.
If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire.
Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many?
Yep. Flowers has only been working his way down the ladder of success with the high point being his draft day.
I would like to give Eli Apple a new lease on life though and see how he performs (including attitude) this summer and early in season before making him the next dismissal...
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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.
Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years?
No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end.
If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire.
Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many?
unlucky for 7 years?
Call me crazy but I think the OL was setup to fail last year. Actually, i'd bet my life on that theory.
THE OL will be better in 2018. The offense will be better.
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In comment 13927564 dep026 said:
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In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:
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a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.
Its really hard to fathom that Reese is a 2x SB GM.
Is it really? George Young drafted Cedric Jones, Derek Brown, Dave Brown, Wheatley and other failures. He won 2 bowls. Didn't Ozzie Newsom step down or is rumored to be stepping down while the Ravens have languished in mediocrity the last 3-4-5 years?
No one wants to hear it...but GMs need to get lucky. The best thing they can do is hire the brilliant HC and pray their players stay healthy. Reese's biggest problem here was McAdoo was a disaster and Eli didn't cover up the warts. Maybe Reese is a football idiot, but I prefer to think he was a good or even very good scout/GM that got a little unlucky and desperate towards the end.
If guys like Manninghmam, Smith, Burress, Boss, Phillips, Thomas, Nicks, Chad Jones, JPP, Prince, Wilson, Pugh, Richburg (yes Richburg) didn't spend more time in the trainers room after flashing good to great play in years 1-2-3 Reese would have had a better go at things here. Not to mention he was saddled with the shittiest HC hire in NYG history. And that was a Mara hire.
Everyone here, ask yourself how many GMs have impeccable long term records NOT named Belichick? How many?
unlucky for 7 years?
I can't take that seriously. Argue with someone else.
Based on that:
2007 - excellent
2008 - very good
2009 - OK
2010- - good
2011 the trouble started. Prince is a decent player now but never panned out here. The rest of that draft sucked.
2012 --even worse
2013 - good
2014 - good or even great
2015 - shaky--really only Collins unless I am forgetting someone.
2016 ickk--but maybe Apple gets it going in year 3. He was good as a rookie.
You want to throw back the 2017 class? I don't.
HE still wasn't as bad as this thread would indicate.
2 Titles. Deal with it.
I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?
'15 - Collins and nobody if Flowers doesn't turn around. A huge miss at 9 overall
'14 Beckham and nodody. Not good. OBJ's greatness makes it passable. the rest is shit. NOT GOOD, not even CLOSE to great
'13 best player Hankins not resinged. Pugh a reach who is extremely overrated here. how is this good?
'12 awful
'11 Prince meh and zippo. stinker
'10 JPP and Linval players, nil from the rest. 2 good players thouhg, so GOOD
'09 Nicks a great pick, Beatty meh, then nada
'08 good
'07 best of his tenure
For example, could we oackage Flowers and #34 to the Patriots for #32.
For example, could we oackage Flowers and #34 to the Patriots for #31.
Unlikely
I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?
he has never been media friendly. I doubt he is giving interviews or posting updates on insta
if I was in this situation - why would I show up to voluntary training with my soon to be former team..?
giving the next employer a good look/impression that attitude won't be a problem..maybe??
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it is obvious that Flowers and his agent have probably heard that Giants were looking to trade him ..
if I was in this situation - why would I show up to voluntary training with my soon to be former team..?
giving the next employer a good look/impression that attitude won't be a problem..maybe??
I believe his father is his agent. Looks like he is trying to force a trade , or maybe he is just getting dental work
Out of the league.
I haven't heard any quotes from him - did he just disappear?
That's what I don't understand. When OBJ didn't show up at least it was reported that he was working out with a trainer. I haven't read anything about Flowers. You would think with new coaches and a new position, he would show up so that he can stay as a starter. To coin a relatively new phrase (used too much) it's a bad optic.
Richburg was everyones darling after 2015. Then injuries took over. Again, thats bad luck.
True - except he is simply hurting himself. His next contract is completely dependent upon this year. He may not want to be an RT but where is his avenue to be an LT? I can't see anyone trading for him to be anything other than a backup with upside right now. He needs to nail down a starting job first.