Ian Rapoport: Trade Talks centered around Flowers

of Flowers, every game missing 2, 3 guys on a play. As in not even touching them. He avoids contact when he pulls. He is a toddler, pop warner scared of contact in a huge body. Anything we get for him is a bonus. He is terrible, point blank. I was thinking Guard he might work out, but watching him avoid contact, I want to avoid him in Blue.

on the board when Flowers was selected? Just wondering. Maybe you guys could mention it 3,000 times a day for the rest of our bloody lives just so I'm clear on the matter?

get togethers are voluntary, but what is he doing with himself in late April? Is he working out on his own? Is he getting information on what it will take to switch to the right side? Is he getting instruction on how to improve his technique? Or is he just sitting at home moping because they signed Solder to replace him at LT? I've read nothing about what he is doing in place of reporting for these team activities.

In comment 13927844 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

on the board when Flowers was selected? Just wondering. Maybe you guys could mention it 3,000 times a day for the rest of our bloody lives just so I'm clear on the matter?

Yes he was..He was the next pick..

things at my work too. Everyone knows that they are really mandatory and you better be there otherwise it's not going to look good. I'd imagine a lot people have them at their jobs. It's not right, but it's reality. Not going speaks volumes.
His attitude reeks of entitlement and fosters a toxic culture. DG is doing what he has to do at this point.

In comment 13927858 blueblood said:

Quote:

In comment 13927844 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: on the board when Flowers was selected? Just wondering. Maybe you guys could mention it 3,000 times a day for the rest of our bloody lives just so I'm clear on the matter? Yes he was..He was the next pick..

So you're saying he was the next pick then? This Gurley fella is pretty good I've been told.

I sense one of these zero compensation type trades like the Osweiler thing last year. Just take the salary off our hands and it's a deal. Ultimately I think he just get cut since I can't imagine anyone taking on $2.4 million.

Yankee28, that is pretty affordable these days. He has been a starter for four years. He had that long streak of no sacks. 23 years old.

Quote:

the issue with any trade is the cost to the next team. Flowers has to be paid $2.4 million for the 2018 season. That makes his draft pick value to the Giants a lower return.

is a team that has a LT in place, but one that could be moved if somebody came in and won the job. A few teams in that camp:

CLE
CHI
NE

In comment 13927900 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

is a team that has a LT in place, but one that could be moved if somebody came in and won the job. A few teams in that camp: CLE CHI NE

Sy, very nice job on MSG network last night. A friend of mine was also on the show, although it looked like they cut most of his material. He's the Producer for GMFB.

In comment 13927909 aimrocky said:

Quote:

In comment 13927900 Sy'56 said: Quote: is a team that has a LT in place, but one that could be moved if somebody came in and won the job. A few teams in that camp: CLE CHI NE Sy, very nice job on MSG network last night. A friend of mine was also on the show, although it looked like they cut most of his material. He's the Producer for GMFB.

That was a first time thing for me...not sure how much I like being on camera or how good I am at it...ha. Was fun though...Orlovsky is a great listen

Quote:

DG and Shurmur reached out to guys like Apple and Flowers to let them know what they are doing and how the coaching staff/front office want them to have a clean slate and want them to be a part of the NYG moving forward - one guy took them up on the offer - the other - decided he didn't want to try.

what??

one player got a clean slate .. the other lost his starting job

seriously you can argue that Flowers isn't a good player but you can say that his reaction to what Giants have done to him since new regime can into place - shows he is a malcontent .

Needs a LT; maybe a scenery/scheme change may help him, and it gives them a bod y there for now.
Sweeten a trade deal that gives us more than a '19 1st, IF, they are a trade partner; maybe get more from '18, or get a '19 3rd + the 1 there.

Quote:

There is a negative way and a positive way to look at the New York Giants 2015 NFL Draft class: Negative: The Giants drafted a right tackle with a top 10 pick. They desperately drafted two safeties in a very weak draft at that position, actually spending four picks to do so. The team also drafted a defensive end with a bad hip, a wide receiver who had trouble separating from collegiate defensive backs, and a guard who can�t run. Positive: The Giants drafted three players who many thought could have gone in the first round. In what was widely considered to be a weak draft class, the Giants drafted two immediate starters in offensive tackle Ereck Flowers and strong safety Landon Collins and possible eventual starters in defensive end Owamagbe Odighizuwa and free safety Mykkele Thompson. I am going to lean towards the positive interpretation for this draft. If you told me before the draft that the Giants would come out with Flowers, Collins, and Odighizuwa, I would have said you were crazy. Even some of the most critical NYG fans were giving New York an �A� after the first two days of the draft. Day 3 left a bad taste with many, but regardless of how you feel about that day, it should not erase the fact that the Giants drafted three players who should have both an immediate and a long-term impact on the franchise. Before we get into the pros and cons of the Giants first three players, let�s take a higher-level look at what these three players bring to the table: TOUGHNESS. Whether NYG fans want to admit it or not, the New York Giants since 2011 have not been a very tough or physical team. This is best demonstrated by their shoddy ability to run the ball and stop the run. But really, the issue has been even deeper than that. This is a team that has folded in some games after it got punched in the mouth. Ereck Flowers, Landon Collins, and Owamagbe Odighizuwa won�t put up with that shit. This team just got a lot tougher on both sides of the football. New York Giants are supposed to be tough. End of story. OT Ereck Flowers, 6�6�, 329 pounds, 5.35, University of Miami To be blunt, the team had to come out of this draft with a rookie starter on the offensive line. That�s why it was almost guaranteed that the Giants were going to draft Brandon Scherff, Ereck Flowers, Andrus Peat, or La�el Collins (pre-off-the-field issue). The Giants were clearly targeting Scherff, but were not surprised to see him drafted before they picked. Unless WR Amari Cooper somehow landed in their lap, it was going to be Scherff or Flowers. Now the big question here is were the Giants forced to reach for Flowers because their desperate need on the offensive line? Many who liked Flowers did not consider him a top 10 pick. Top 20 or 30, but not top 10. These people suggest that the Giants may have been better off drafting RB Todd Gurley, DT Danny Shelton, or WR Devante Parker. A few made a case for CB Trae Waynes. But all four of those players had their warts too: Gurley the ACL, Shelton being one dimensional, Parker�s mental make-up, and the grabiness of Waynes in coverage. For weeks leading up to the draft, I thought that unless wideouts Amari Cooper or Kevin White fell to the Giants, from a value-need perspective, the pick was obviously going to be an offensive lineman. Scherff, Flowers, Peat, and Collins were all widely regarded as being worthy first round draft picks. All signs pointed to one of these four. The question really become, which one? The Redskins took Scherff out of the equation. Tragic circumstances took Collins out of the equation. So it came down to Flowers versus Peat. Each has their advocates. Peat is the smoother, more technically-sound left tackle; Flowers the meaner, more physical one. Most assume Peat will be an NFL left tackle; Flowers may be limited to right tackle (though the Giants don�t share this view). If I were making the pick, it would have been a coin flip between Peat and Flowers. I�m just glad the Giants got one of them. As I said, they needed to come out of this draft with an immediate starter on the offensive line. And they were fortunate that in this case, the value seemed to match up with the need. My only reservation? I do wonder if they missed out on a special player in Gurley. That said, this draft was simply too important for the Giants to screw up. They could not afford to take the risk on Gurley�s knee. The responsible pick was the offensive lineman. Ereck Flowers brings size, strength, toughness, and nastiness to an offensive line that needed all four of those attributes. He looks born to play right tackle in the NFL and the combination of Flowers and Geoff Schwartz will give the Giants almost 700 pounds of beef on the right side of the line. Flowers� biggest negative � technique � is correctable. You can�t teach size, athletic ability, or toughness. Moreover, if the Giants are right and Flowers can eventually be a franchise left tackle, then there is no arguing against this pick. But it will be interesting to track the careers of Flowers versus Peat.

I guess Reese liked Flowers just as much as most others when the pick was made?
BBI Draft Review 2015... but yeah, let's shit on the guy for making a pick that most liked at the time... - ( New Window )

I don't remember reading anywhere they were handing a starting job to Apple.
I'm also fairly certain that they wanted Flowers to come in and compete to start at RT.
They were both given an opportunity to come in and compete - which, with their performance over the past 2 years, was an attempt by the new regime to start over and give them a chance to redeem themselves.
Apple appears to have taken it.
Flowers appears to want to sulk at home.

In comment 13927655 Pete in MD said:

Quote:

wrote an article about Flowers' potential trade value in February, citing examples of other high draft pick, underachieving OLs who were traded during their rookie deals in the past few years. The verdict; a 5th round pick would be the most we can hope for. Link - ( New Window )

A fifth round draft pick would be a dream come true...

that he played better is really just the fact that the bar was really low there. He still stunk, regardless of what some want to say and he didn't develop much at all technique wise from year to year.

Flowers is a HORRIBLE LT who we are now thinking of moving to RT or G, assuming he can beat out guys. This "i don't want to lose a young player" bla bla bla is crap. He is a VET, regardless of age and he has not improved much at all.

On top of that he was (or has been indicated he was) a locker room issue last year.

Bye bye Flowers.

when Glenn was injured and he was infinitely better than Flowers.

In comment 13927665 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

With each passing day, Reese/Ross are looking worse and worse.

no shit. People are just discovering this now when the alarm bells were going off for several years. Give these two Snake oil peddlers credit: they managed to persuade Laurel and Hardy in the owners box to fire everyone else first.

In comment 13927582 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

still be a valuable back-up and still might develop, albeit in an ORT role. He is allowed to pass on VOLUNTARY stuff and shouldn�t be ostracized for it, otherwise have the NFLPA agree to remove the voluntary from their agreements. He appeared to have performed better the second half of the season, so there�s that, despite the problem during the end of the year. New regime. If they�re ok with moving on from him, then fine. I still feel there�s usefulness to his game. It�s his last contract year. I wouldn�t give him away

^^^ This. I'm all for giving him a shot at RG.

is Marshall Newhouse and he's better than Flowers.

In comment 13927557 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

a disaster if they have to dump Flowers.

That is the challenge with this organization. They waste too much time on some guys. It was apparent to quite a few that he was not going to pan out and was given enough opportunity. You are correct about disaster, as it will set us back in a very troubled area of this roster.

In comment 13927706 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 13927616 UberAlias said: Quote: In comment 13927611 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: this isn't really a disaster. It's actually somewhat common. Except they had options other than tackles when they picked. The obvious one was an MVP candidate last year. Yeah, but you can play that game six different ways. In 2016 Gurley would have been the argument for not taking a RB high.

There is only one way to play the draft - take the best player available and stop the madness of drafting for need... Our needing a good offensive lineman never made Ereck Flowers a good offensive lineman... Very easy to sign free agents to fill holes. Top ten draft picks need to be transcendent talents irrespective of position.

In comment 13927827 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 13927742 Brown Recluse said: Quote: Reese ignored them. Thats not hindsight. Its poor decision-making.. Or, what happens in literally every NFL draft process, acts on opinions of coaches. It's the same thing that's happening with Josh Allen. "Yes, player X needs improvement at ___, ___, and ___. With the proper coaching, he can become ____".

It doesn't matter. The point is that Reese went away from his philosophy of taking the best player available. His drafting was a failure. The pattern is clear. Thats why he is gone. Hindsight? I mean, no shit. There are some cases where its hindsight. But this was just a poor decision. Part of a pattern of poor decisions.

In comment 13927560 jvm52106 said:

Quote:

In comment 13927555 jeff57 said: Quote: In comment 13927554 Sean said: Quote: . Who's playing corner? We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season.

"You don't give up on talent." --Dave Gettleman. Apple is a 21-year-old kid with a complicated family life. Let's not write him off so cavalierly.

the issue is anyone, including the draft experts on here and on tv, trying to grade a draft in the immediate aftermath of it. I know people do it because "why not," but if you feel happy or upset about a draft the night of the draft you probably are making an uniformed decision. The only way to look at a draft is 2-3 years after it and then grade it. Wait and see instead of instant hyperbole, either way, is the best route to go.
With all that said, this is a message board, so to the extent we can shoot the shit about what we "think" about a draft is perfectly fine. I would be careful before you rub that in someone's face. As long as people realize that the draft posts and grades are simply guesses, it should not remove the hindsight of actually making a judgment on how the draft came out.

3-13 MINUS Flowers and MacAdoo does not equal a Playoff Team.

They've handled him very poorly... gave Flowers No Help in 2016---they don't run or Cover him with a TE...no help ever. The team collapsed in 2017---and he was hung out to dry as a major reason. The Pressure...The Criticism...yeah--he probably needs a new start.

It's been an incredibly public stoning of this guy--- he's not at fault for being the #9 Pick. He's showed up and played....and He has battled.

I'd rather see them find a way to save him....he has talent.

...is probably a good idea.

No, make that a great idea.

Fresh start for him; fresh start for the Giants.

.

has shown progress, even if very small progress, and don't forget,

the dude is an iron man, comparatively speaking, at least he can stay on the field, which is a lot more than some of the other stiff trotted out there

In comment 13928003 Essex said:

Quote:

the issue is anyone, including the draft experts on here and on tv, trying to grade a draft in the immediate aftermath of it. I know people do it because "why not," but if you feel happy or upset about a draft the night of the draft you probably are making an uniformed decision. The only way to look at a draft is 2-3 years after it and then grade it. Wait and see instead of instant hyperbole, either way, is the best route to go. With all that said, this is a message board, so to the extent we can shoot the shit about what we "think" about a draft is perfectly fine. I would be careful before you rub that in someone's face. As long as people realize that the draft posts and grades are simply guesses, it should not remove the hindsight of actually making a judgment on how the draft came out.

IMO, the 'issue' is many of the same folks who applauded the pick at the time are now... with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how the pick turned out... using that as a way to further bury a guy who, for reasons unknown (I guess?), can't seem to garner the same amount of respect as the guy who coached this team for a majority of the past 10 years when they both helped to deliver to championships to this franchise. You can't applaud the pick and then a few years later use the pick that YOU applauded as an indictment on the guy who actually made the pick. Please...

For anyone that didn't like the pick when it was made... I can respect that because at least you're not faking it now as if you had a problem with the pick or player since he was drafted. But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever...

That�s a dream. Not going to see it.

Nobody would give up that prospect and lower salary to bring in Flowers. He�s a bust.

Matt Lombardo
‏Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
12s13 seconds ago

Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isn�t here. There�s not much to say. It�s voluntary, I�m of the feeling it�s very necessary. #Giants

In comment 13928024 T-Bone said:

Quote:

But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever...

You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment.

In comment 13928001 clatterbuck said:

Quote:

In comment 13927560 jvm52106 said: Quote: In comment 13927555 jeff57 said: Quote: In comment 13927554 Sean said: Quote: . Who's playing corner? We will be drafting 1 or more Corners in this draft. I am not concerned about keeping Apple. The guy quit last year and regardless of issues, showed his mental fortitude and aptitude with his behavior last season. "You don't give up on talent." --Dave Gettleman. Apple is a 21-year-old kid with a complicated family life. Let's not write him off so cavalierly.

I disagree with your point.. Stop quoting DG as if it is gospel. His comment while valid also doesn't take into account if the player's attitude and mental performance (ie quitting on the field) far outweigh his ability and potential. New regime, new attitude and Apple is questionable talent at best.

He is not at 'voluntary' workouts with a staff that changed his position but otherwise have given him a clean slate? Point is, if his relationship with the team doesn't improve he is likely to be cut, so any team with interest just has to wait it out.

Flowers was always a reach as a top 10 pick, but that shouldn't have made him a bad player. I'd like to see how he does on the right side with a competent blocking scheme.

In comment 13928061 ATL_Giants said:

Quote:

In comment 13928024 T-Bone said: Quote: But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever... You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment.

And I'm sure that's what Reese thought he was getting as well when he made the pick.

In all my years on this site I can't think of anyone else who's been talked about as badly as Reese has... this includes Handley. The guy played a major part in bringing two championships here and yet you have some posters asking how he was able to help bring those championships here considering his draft record over the past several years and ready to give credit to EVERYONE else who had anything to do with the team during that time period EXCEPT him. And a lot of it is coming from the very same people who if you give even the slightest critique of Coughlin or Eli they attack like a bunch of crazed dogs.

I get some of the anger and resentment... which is why I don't go on every single post that has any criticism of Reese on it and try defending the man (unlike what happens if you so much as mention a Coughlin coaching error or Eli interception). But it seems like every other day there's some new and creative way to say 'Reese sucks!'.

In comment 13928059 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Matt Lombardo ‏Verified account @MattLombardoNFL 12s13 seconds ago Shurmur: Ereck Flowers isn�t here. There�s not much to say. It�s voluntary, I�m of the feeling it�s very necessary. #Giants

I had begun to believe that the Giants front office was requesting that Flowers stay away as it was likely that he would be traded. Shurmur would not be saying this if this was in fact the case...

So it is indeed what we cynically suspected - it is Flowers being Flowers. We simply have to find a willing trade partner asap...

The next tackle off the board was Andrus Peat, who was in lousy physical shape as a prospect, more flab than muscle.

And, what a shock, he can't play tackle. He's been moved to guard. The saints lucked out by getting a pro bowl left tackle in the third round.

Matt Lombardo
‏Verified account @MattLombardoNFL
18s18 seconds ago

Olivier Vernon throws a monkeywrench into the whole thing. Says he saw Ereck Flowers in the building today. 🤷��‍♂️#Giants

In comment 13928115 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Matt Lombardo ‏Verified account @MattLombardoNFL 18s18 seconds ago Olivier Vernon throws a monkeywrench into the whole thing. Says he saw Ereck Flowers in the building today. 🤷��‍♂️#Giants

Was it Ereck Flowers or a potted flower?

In comment 13928087 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 13928061 ATL_Giants said: Quote: In comment 13928024 T-Bone said: Quote: But for 75% (if not more) on this site who liked... if not loved... the pick... whatever... You're not wrong. But I think what people liked (me included) was the hope of quality investment in a top talent OT. I had no idea if Flowers was the goods or not, I trusted Reese, and that trust was rewarded with years of disappointment. And I'm sure that's what Reese thought he was getting as well when he made the pick. In all my years on this site I can't think of anyone else who's been talked about as badly as Reese has... this includes Handley. The guy played a major part in bringing two championships here and yet you have some posters asking how he was able to help bring those championships here considering his draft record over the past several years and ready to give credit to EVERYONE else who had anything to do with the team during that time period EXCEPT him. And a lot of it is coming from the very same people who if you give even the slightest critique of Coughlin or Eli they attack like a bunch of crazed dogs. I get some of the anger and resentment... which is why I don't go on every single post that has any criticism of Reese on it and try defending the man (unlike what happens if you so much as mention a Coughlin coaching error or Eli interception). But it seems like every other day there's some new and creative way to say 'Reese sucks!'.

Reese�s first 4 years were lauded as being Newsome-worthy

There was a thread on Wheeler a few days ago � a move like this during the draft may say just as much about the organizational confidence in Wheeler as it does the lack thereof in Flowers. Two days, we�ll see what happens.

Pat Leonard
‏Verified account @PLeonardNYDN

Pat Leonard Retweeted Pat Leonard

I�m told that Olivier Vernon was joking. Seriously. Flowers isn�t here. #Giants

Flowers is being burned publicly by teammates. YEEESH

That's how I remember it as well... along the way he seemed to had lost his fastball over his last several years here. I have no problem admitting that and have yet to argue that he shouldn't have been let go when he was. Matter of fact, I've even gone so far as to say that I was wrong in stating that Reese deserved to stay when Coughlin was let go because my reasoning was that I felt he should have had a chance to pick his own HC (which he did and who sucked).

But some of the shit I've seen on here is over the top and it's almost like some want to completely erase what accomplishments the man had while he was in charge here. The man was bad enough his last few years here that shit doesn't need to be made up nor does his past accomplishments need to either be belittled or attributed to someone else.

In comment 13928148 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Pat Leonard ‏Verified account @PLeonardNYDN Pat Leonard Retweeted Pat Leonard I�m told that Olivier Vernon was joking. Seriously. Flowers isn�t here. #Giants

Pat The Weasel is already getting clowned by Giants. That's what happens when you slander teammates to generate clicks all offseason.

Before giving up on him.

He and his agent aren't complete morons. They know what's going to happen...and are likely hoping that he'll find a LT position on another team.

In comment 13928155 Bold Ruler said:

Quote:

Flowers is being burned publicly by teammates. YEEESH

I think it was Matt Lombardo who was "burned".