Sorry if some of you immeduately think I am "post happy", but I felt that this, along with the other thread I started would provide a little bit more interesting talking points other than Darnold v. Barkley v. Chubb v. Rosen at 2.
This thread was another issue that came to me: those saying we dont HAVE to get a QB this year, when do we?
I think we can all agree that this draft has at least the highest concentration of potential starting QBs, if not the most talented group in about a decade. Yes, all have warts, but so did the last couple years' and there are at least 4 young starting QBs showing immense promise (Goff, Wentz, Trubisky and Watson...leaving out Mahomes). Thats 2.5 in each draft year. We have a chance to pick ONE of the TWO BEST this year. What I did was take note of which teams are going to have an issue/fairly dire need at QB in the next 2 years (meaning it could also be a position of immense need for these teams in the next YEAR). I chose 2 years because thats the remainder of Eli's contract....the results are NOT favorable to us waiting past this year because there are 14 teams including us that are going to need to think about life beyond ______.
There are 4 players (Darnold, Mayfield, Rosen and Allen)that are DEFINITELY going to go in this years 1st round, so that leaves us among roughly 10 teams that are going to have a serious need at QB. This is eliminating 2nd or 3rd round possibilities this year turning into starters, but until I put pen to paper and really looked at it, I had no idea how many teams would have to find new options. The list is as follows with explanations following teams you might question. In lieu of the Giants taking one, I assume 2 of the Bills, Broncos and Phins would take one, but included them on the list because based on draft position, you cant assume them getting one. So the list is assuming at least 2 of the 4 QBs are off the board meaning 10 teams are left still with the option of taking a QB in the first round in the next 2 years.
Arizona
Buffalo
Cinci- no dead money hit on dalton after this year...signed thru '20, but if they stink this year, they might be looking for a clean sweep
Denver
Indy- Luck says he is okay after injury, but if he doesnt bounce back, after a 40 mill cap hit this year, he is 12.4 in '19 and 6.4 in '20. Colts have a couple years but I also wouldnt rule out then surprising and taking a QB at 6 this year. Especially if Giants take Barkley and Bills dont move.
Jax- only committed to Bort-face for 3 years. Only 5 mill dead cap hit in '20 in case he decides to become someone other than Alex Smith part deux.
Chargers
Miami
NE- Brady has got to die at some point right? :/
NO
Pitt
Seattle- this was THEE tricky one. He is 29, is signed THRU '19...can they rebuild in enough time to warrant giving him another 20 mill per contract? Or will they be smart and just realize they squeezed one Super Bowl and two appearances out of him and let him go a la the methode du Terps'? I dont see them paying him to run for his life behind that line while he watching that fast, furious D get old.
Tampa- has Jameis earned a big contract from the Bucs? Probably not. How much is Winston worth as your starting QB? I think they part ways.
So two of these teams get the other two QBs in the top ten. MAYBE one takes a shot at Jackson. Another will make an offer to Wilson and yet another will take a chance on the psychopath that is Jameis Winston. But those of you saying we can wait, sure....we could. But it might cost a ton more and be a much bigger headache than you think.
If we have to trade up one day, it will be very costly.
If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Well, where they are pocking, if a QB has a few "warts", it still represents good value not only at where they currently pick, but also in a trade up to wherever.
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but if the rumors are true that NE is looking hard at QB with Brady, what does that say about NYG passing on QB at 2?
Well, where they are pocking, if a QB has a few "warts", it still represents good value not only at where they currently pick, but also in a trade up to wherever.
The rumors are that NE is trying to move way up, into the top ten.
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This is totally my thought process. To me the idea of getting “too cute” is thinking you are smarter than all these other teams trying to get a QB. I really think Gettleman will be a bad memory if he passes on up to 3 possible franchise QBs. I don’t believe the Giants don’t believe in any of them. Mara knew we needed a QB when Reese was still here. Maybe the backlash over the benching of Manning is why they are gonna pass I don’t really know.
If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Interesting thought process. My only thing is I would either resign immediately or pick who I felt best suited and take the firing. For this reason I find it hard to believe that Mara exacts that kind of influence over a tenured GM like DG. That would be a pretty damning directive: draft this player or else.
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In comment 13932172 Sean said:
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but if the rumors are true that NE is looking hard at QB with Brady, what does that say about NYG passing on QB at 2?
Well, where they are pocking, if a QB has a few "warts", it still represents good value not only at where they currently pick, but also in a trade up to wherever.
The rumors are that NE is trying to move way up, into the top ten.
Ill believe it when I see it based on their history. Plus, they kind of HAVE to. Their QB is 40 and could fall off a cliff at any time.
If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Mara has paid Eli plenty, he’s not going through the Danny kannel years again
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In comment 13932165 mattyblue said:
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This is totally my thought process. To me the idea of getting “too cute” is thinking you are smarter than all these other teams trying to get a QB. I really think Gettleman will be a bad memory if he passes on up to 3 possible franchise QBs. I don’t believe the Giants don’t believe in any of them. Mara knew we needed a QB when Reese was still here. Maybe the backlash over the benching of Manning is why they are gonna pass I don’t really know.
If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Interesting thought process. My only thing is I would either resign immediately or pick who I felt best suited and take the firing. For this reason I find it hard to believe that Mara exacts that kind of influence over a tenured GM like DG. That would be a pretty damning directive: draft this player or else.
If there is such a directive (and with Chris Mara still VP of player evaluation who knows) then we're in Snyder territory and lots of 3-13s are in our future.
Very well said. He looked erratic last year and missed a lot of open throws. It’s not getting any better. I don’t see the championship run happening with Eli. It’s not all on the line, Eli missed when he had time to. Everybody likes Eli but the opportunity to grab a QB right now is to great. Eventually you become Cleveland, Buffalo, the Jets and have no choice but to keep drafting and drafting QBs.
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by taking Barkley is this: What if Manning goes down with an injury? It seems logical that the older he gets, the greater likelihood of getting injured. Who's the QB then? In that scenario, they would have passed up the opportunity to draft a top QB prospect for a .500 year at best. As tempting as Barkley is, they can't pass on what may be the once in a decade opportunity at drafting a top QB. I'm hoping they go with Rosen.
Very well said. He looked erratic last year and missed a lot of open throws. It’s not getting any better. I don’t see the championship run happening with Eli. It’s not all on the line, Eli missed when he had time to. Everybody likes Eli but the opportunity to grab a QB right now is to great. Eventually you become Cleveland, Buffalo, the Jets and have no choice but to keep drafting and drafting QBs.
Even the amount of money Eli makes for the level of play is not equivalent any longer. Sentimentality in sports is really ridiculous.
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If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Mara has paid Eli plenty, he’s not going through the Danny kannel years again
I tend to agree.
Optimal move is to somehow convince Cleveland we are picking Barkley at 2, having them offer us their first two 2s, Jets taking Mayfield or Allen and leaving Rosen to us with the first 3 second rounders to use or move back into the first with.
That woukd be highway robbery of thw draft. Probably the only scenario comparable to the Browns netting Darnold and Barkley.
You know, that is an interesting point, one that I never really thought about. I don't know the ages of everyone here. I'm only 37, but I remember when we had Dave Brown and Kent Graham and Danny Kannell and really stunk, and I don't want to go back to that. We have a chance to be the unique envy of every team that goes from Peyton Manning to Luck, from Favre to Rodgers, and hopefully Eli to ___. We cannot pass it up.
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In comment 13932173 Giants34 said:
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If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Mara has paid Eli plenty, he’s not going through the Danny kannel years again
I tend to agree.
Optimal move is to somehow convince Cleveland we are picking Barkley at 2, having them offer us their first two 2s, Jets taking Mayfield or Allen and leaving Rosen to us with the first 3 second rounders to use or move back into the first with.
That woukd be highway robbery of thw draft. Probably the only scenario comparable to the Browns netting Darnold and Barkley.
I don't know concretely, but I certainly believe the Jets will grab Rosen at 3. I do not believe we will land him at 4.
Bingo.. it says the Giants are conservative and stupid. I don't really think they will pass on a QB. The choice is so obvious. But if they do, they deserve to lose the city to the Jets.
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In comment 13932216 V.I.G. said:
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In comment 13932173 Giants34 said:
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If we pass on a QB, I am convinced it is because Mara ordered the front office to do so. Because I remain in the camp that no competent GM and coach would pass on a potential franchise QB at two for a RB, even if he happens to be Barkley. And I don't care how many people on this board or in the media try to convince me how good that guy is.
Mara has paid Eli plenty, he’s not going through the Danny kannel years again
I tend to agree.
Optimal move is to somehow convince Cleveland we are picking Barkley at 2, having them offer us their first two 2s, Jets taking Mayfield or Allen and leaving Rosen to us with the first 3 second rounders to use or move back into the first with.
That woukd be highway robbery of thw draft. Probably the only scenario comparable to the Browns netting Darnold and Barkley.
I don't know concretely, but I certainly believe the Jets will grab Rosen at 3. I do not believe we will land him at 4.
I agree. If the Jets have a choice of Rosen, Mayfield and Allen I think they will take Rosen.
And we'd all want what they're smoking. Click their heels 3 times and pretend 2017 didn't happen.
Tell me - which Pro Bowl OL do they have? How many Pro Bowls did SOldier get with NE? Which of the other 4 guys are close to being Pro Bowl caliber? And ofc we have YOUR assurances that beyond Rd 1, the OL they draft will immediately step in and be very good, right?
Sy is a bright guy, he probably gets things wrong, but you look at the rankings or ratings of the QBs and you can’t tell me that the Giants opinion is so far off on all these QBs that you would pass. It just seems that something else must be happening for them to pass on all these QBs now.
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If the younger fans don’t recall the years between Simms and Collins or Manning. The Giants were tough to watch and so many QBs cane and went. I know it was worse before “my time” but not having a QB is horrible and when you can get one without wasting 3 years of picks or something you do it.
You know, that is an interesting point, one that I never really thought about. I don't know the ages of everyone here. I'm only 37, but I remember when we had Dave Brown and Kent Graham and Danny Kannell and really stunk, and I don't want to go back to that. We have a chance to be the unique envy of every team that goes from Peyton Manning to Luck, from Favre to Rodgers, and hopefully Eli to ___. We cannot pass it up.
I feel like Ive been saying this since about the bye week. Actually before. I was saying to myself after the Detroit game (yes that soon) that if we go 0-7 or 1-6 into the bye, we could make the transition like Manning to Luck. Despite wavering I keep coming back to that same dogma just like Costner in Draft Day when he wrote down "(the LBs name) NO MATTER WHAT."
We almost HAVE to do this. Eli can still play this year or even next. But not taking a qualified candidate for QB (no matter where you rank him as a player) would be really irresponsible. There are two QBs that assuredly fit that mold. Gotta grab one.
Sy is a bright guy, he probably gets things wrong, but you look at the rankings or ratings of the QBs and you can’t tell me that the Giants opinion is so far off on all these QBs that you would pass. It just seems that something else must be happening for them to pass on all these QBs now.
How can something be well documented and supposedly at the same time? It's either well documented or it isn't.
That said, the only person I heard interested in Mahomes was McAdoo. Considering how shit of a coach he was, I wouldn't trust his judgment.
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pretty well documented that last year after an 11-5 season the Giants wanted to draft Mahomes, well supposedly. I don’t see how a year older and a lot worse that we suddenly don’t need a QB.
Sy is a bright guy, he probably gets things wrong, but you look at the rankings or ratings of the QBs and you can’t tell me that the Giants opinion is so far off on all these QBs that you would pass. It just seems that something else must be happening for them to pass on all these QBs now.
How can something be well documented and supposedly at the same time? It's either well documented or it isn't.
That said, the only person I heard interested in Mahomes was McAdoo. Considering how shit of a coach he was, I wouldn't trust his judgment.
Alot of the people “in the know” around here stated the Giants were interested in trading up to get Mahomes. That would have been Jerry Reese doing that not Macadoo. When that didn’t succeed we traded up in the third round to take Webb.
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In comment 13932201 mattyblue said:
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If the younger fans don’t recall the years between Simms and Collins or Manning. The Giants were tough to watch and so many QBs cane and went. I know it was worse before “my time” but not having a QB is horrible and when you can get one without wasting 3 years of picks or something you do it.
You know, that is an interesting point, one that I never really thought about. I don't know the ages of everyone here. I'm only 37, but I remember when we had Dave Brown and Kent Graham and Danny Kannell and really stunk, and I don't want to go back to that. We have a chance to be the unique envy of every team that goes from Peyton Manning to Luck, from Favre to Rodgers, and hopefully Eli to ___. We cannot pass it up.
I feel like Ive been saying this since about the bye week. Actually before. I was saying to myself after the Detroit game (yes that soon) that if we go 0-7 or 1-6 into the bye, we could make the transition like Manning to Luck. Despite wavering I keep coming back to that same dogma just like Costner in Draft Day when he wrote down "(the LBs name) NO MATTER WHAT."
We almost HAVE to do this. Eli can still play this year or even next. But not taking a qualified candidate for QB (no matter where you rank him as a player) would be really irresponsible. There are two QBs that assuredly fit that mold. Gotta grab one.
I agree, but as it looks they are not going to. All you can do is hope at this point and then pray Webb is good enough. He should be starting by week 10 or so.
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In comment 13932254 Giants34 said:
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In comment 13932201 mattyblue said:
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If the younger fans don’t recall the years between Simms and Collins or Manning. The Giants were tough to watch and so many QBs cane and went. I know it was worse before “my time” but not having a QB is horrible and when you can get one without wasting 3 years of picks or something you do it.
You know, that is an interesting point, one that I never really thought about. I don't know the ages of everyone here. I'm only 37, but I remember when we had Dave Brown and Kent Graham and Danny Kannell and really stunk, and I don't want to go back to that. We have a chance to be the unique envy of every team that goes from Peyton Manning to Luck, from Favre to Rodgers, and hopefully Eli to ___. We cannot pass it up.
I feel like Ive been saying this since about the bye week. Actually before. I was saying to myself after the Detroit game (yes that soon) that if we go 0-7 or 1-6 into the bye, we could make the transition like Manning to Luck. Despite wavering I keep coming back to that same dogma just like Costner in Draft Day when he wrote down "(the LBs name) NO MATTER WHAT."
We almost HAVE to do this. Eli can still play this year or even next. But not taking a qualified candidate for QB (no matter where you rank him as a player) would be really irresponsible. There are two QBs that assuredly fit that mold. Gotta grab one.
I agree, but as it looks they are not going to. All you can do is hope at this point and then pray Webb is good enough. He should be starting by week 10 or so.
I'm not doing that. If the only people who really know the pick are the GM, HC, and the owners, then it is possible no one knows the Giants' intentions. I will hold out hope that we are taking Rosen. I will hope that it will give Gettleman great pleasure to speak to all the reporters when they ask why he passed up Barkley. I might be wrong, but that is what I'm hoping. But if those guys are the only ones who know the pick, then no one here (or in the media) knows what is going down tomorrow. About the only consistent thing we've seen is that the Giants like Darnold. I guess we'll see on that too if the Browns pass him up.
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but if the rumors are true that NE is looking hard at QB with Brady, what does that say about NYG passing on QB at 2?
Bingo.. it says the Giants are conservative and stupid. I don't really think they will pass on a QB. The choice is so obvious. But if they do, they deserve to lose the city to the Jets.
If they draft a QB, THAT will be conservative.
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In comment 13932280 mattyblue said:
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pretty well documented that last year after an 11-5 season the Giants wanted to draft Mahomes, well supposedly. I don’t see how a year older and a lot worse that we suddenly don’t need a QB.
Sy is a bright guy, he probably gets things wrong, but you look at the rankings or ratings of the QBs and you can’t tell me that the Giants opinion is so far off on all these QBs that you would pass. It just seems that something else must be happening for them to pass on all these QBs now.
How can something be well documented and supposedly at the same time? It's either well documented or it isn't.
That said, the only person I heard interested in Mahomes was McAdoo. Considering how shit of a coach he was, I wouldn't trust his judgment.
Alot of the people “in the know” around here stated the Giants were interested in trading up to get Mahomes. That would have been Jerry Reese doing that not Macadoo. When that didn’t succeed we traded up in the third round to take Webb.
Not according to Hitdog.
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In comment 13932295 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 13932254 Giants34 said:
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In comment 13932201 mattyblue said:
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If the younger fans don’t recall the years between Simms and Collins or Manning. The Giants were tough to watch and so many QBs cane and went. I know it was worse before “my time” but not having a QB is horrible and when you can get one without wasting 3 years of picks or something you do it.
You know, that is an interesting point, one that I never really thought about. I don't know the ages of everyone here. I'm only 37, but I remember when we had Dave Brown and Kent Graham and Danny Kannell and really stunk, and I don't want to go back to that. We have a chance to be the unique envy of every team that goes from Peyton Manning to Luck, from Favre to Rodgers, and hopefully Eli to ___. We cannot pass it up.
I feel like Ive been saying this since about the bye week. Actually before. I was saying to myself after the Detroit game (yes that soon) that if we go 0-7 or 1-6 into the bye, we could make the transition like Manning to Luck. Despite wavering I keep coming back to that same dogma just like Costner in Draft Day when he wrote down "(the LBs name) NO MATTER WHAT."
We almost HAVE to do this. Eli can still play this year or even next. But not taking a qualified candidate for QB (no matter where you rank him as a player) would be really irresponsible. There are two QBs that assuredly fit that mold. Gotta grab one.
I agree, but as it looks they are not going to. All you can do is hope at this point and then pray Webb is good enough. He should be starting by week 10 or so.
I'm not doing that. If the only people who really know the pick are the GM, HC, and the owners, then it is possible no one knows the Giants' intentions. I will hold out hope that we are taking Rosen. I will hope that it will give Gettleman great pleasure to speak to all the reporters when they ask why he passed up Barkley. I might be wrong, but that is what I'm hoping. But if those guys are the only ones who know the pick, then no one here (or in the media) knows what is going down tomorrow. About the only consistent thing we've seen is that the Giants like Darnold. I guess we'll see on that too if the Browns pass him up.
I hope they take Rosen too. I admit this might be stupid, but after seeing that interview today with the NY reporters -- the first time I've really seen him act that way -- I have a fear that the Giants brass might have found him to be too brash. I'm not suggesting that one annoyed comment to a reporter should take him off the Giants' board by any means, but I'm just saying that if he came off across that way with any of the Giants brass in his meetings, that could have spelled doom for him.
In that case, maybe the Giants do only like Darnold. The two of them are probably the only QBs in this class I'd take at 2. I would never take Mayfield at 2 and Allen is too raw and risky for a team that hasn't picked at 2 in almost 40 years. If Darnold goes to Cleveland, maybe the Giants don't take a QB. I'll be very disappointed with this, but I'll have to be the first one to admit that the reason why Rosen wasn't taken by the Giants is b/c they didn't like his personality. His talent and skill set should make him the #1 pick in this draft. Maybe his injuries ended up being a big concern to the Giants, but I have a feeling those checked out.
While I want them to get the next guy, I will be ok with the decision if they truly believe guys available at that pick do not equal the value.
But if there is credence to the idea that they don t want to create controversy behind Eli, as was reported by Phil Simms, that would be very disappointing.
I get the loyalty for Eli, especially from younger fans. All the fury about his benching and talk of making another run, were the same things I said and felt for Phil Simms at a similar age.
But if there is a quarterback that could be the next guy and the Giants factor Eli into the decision as to whether they should draft him, that could be a fireable offense, unless they win another Super Bowl.
Being competitive with Eli, competing for or even making the play offs during the next 2-3 years would not justify that move. At least that s how I see it.
But, if the QB prospects do not inspire the selection I'd rather go with the prospect that does. This pick needs to be one that lifts the entire franchise and energizes it.
Don't force the QB if you do not believe in one.
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In comment 13932280 mattyblue said:
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pretty well documented that last year after an 11-5 season the Giants wanted to draft Mahomes, well supposedly. I don’t see how a year older and a lot worse that we suddenly don’t need a QB.
Sy is a bright guy, he probably gets things wrong, but you look at the rankings or ratings of the QBs and you can’t tell me that the Giants opinion is so far off on all these QBs that you would pass. It just seems that something else must be happening for them to pass on all these QBs now.
How can something be well documented and supposedly at the same time? It's either well documented or it isn't.
That said, the only person I heard interested in Mahomes was McAdoo. Considering how shit of a coach he was, I wouldn't trust his judgment.
Alot of the people “in the know” around here stated the Giants were interested in trading up to get Mahomes. That would have been Jerry Reese doing that not Macadoo. When that didn’t succeed we traded up in the third round to take Webb.
Why does this false information continue to get passed around? The Giants DID NOT trade up for Webb.
That is huge,if you give one of them the 2 years to develop behind Eli we will have a franchise QB for the next decade.
JonC : 7:46 am : link : reply
and a declining 37 year old QB, I think it's obviously an excellent time to pick the successor.
But, if the QB prospects do not inspire the selection I'd rather go with the prospect that does. This pick needs to be one that lifts the entire franchise and energizes it.
Don't force the QB if you do not believe in one.
amen to that. very well said. Just because we want a QB at #2 doesn't mean one is worthy of picking at #2.
one of these QBs is probably going to be a top NFL QB. Which one, though? the 'pick a QB, any QB' crowd will look back and point to the success story and say 'see, we shoulda picked a QB' and conveniently forget the ones that didn't pan out.
I disagree with the notion that the Giants should ignore their own scouting and pick a QB because other teams will take one. IF the Giants don't feel the love for a QB, they shouldn't take one just because NE, or Cleveland, or the Jets do.
But glad we keep getting the valuable opinion over and over again that the "Giants shouldn't make bad picks". That makes it clear as day now..
The reason I ask this is simple. If you had the number 2 pick in this draft and both Eli and Michael Strahan were there - who you taking?