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Hope we can Complete a Screen Pass this Year

thomasa510 : 5/1/2018 10:40 pm
I have never seen a hybrid WCO as incapable of completing a screen pass as the Giants were. It has been a major weakness for years. Usually screen passes are a defense against poor o-lines.

If Barkley solves this problem then it will make a major difference for converting many a first down.
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Hopefully  
idiotsavant : 5/2/2018 9:16 am : link
Being able to actually run well will help us get over the fallacy that short passes can or should completely replace the run.

It just left our line without a decent basis from which to improve.

That must be the biggest benefit of run to pass, improvement in line play for both run and pass.
This "Eli can't throw screens" thing is horribly  
Section331 : 5/2/2018 9:17 am : link
overstated. Maybe he's not Drew Brees, but when he has weapons in the backfield, he can execute screens just fine. He did it with Tiki, Bradshaw, and Vereen (when healthy). Vereen caught 114 passes in 37 games, 44 last year, and he was almost exclusively a 3rd down back.
Eli's terrible at screens.  
mittenedman : 5/2/2018 9:24 am : link
Almost inexplicably so. The short game is far and away his biggest weakness - even bigger than his lack of mobility. He throws that sidearm dart & you can tell the pass comes in at an awkward, random angle and speed that catches the RB off guard even when completed.

Romo was on the air last year and said one of the huge things that separates QBs is their ability to hit RBs perfectly in stride, and lead them to open spaces. Romo was masterful at this so it's no surprise he sees it as a key trait, but it's something Eli struggles badly with.

You need Tackles and TE s  
idiotsavant : 5/2/2018 9:24 am : link
That actually know wtf they are doing in space.
Too much confusion here. Of course, Eli can throw screen passes  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2018 9:39 am : link
and there was success with such plays with other RBs in his past. That is different than saying Eli throws a "good screen pass".

My general view is Eli can throw short passes to RBs that may/may not turn into decent plays.

But he indeed does not throw a good screen pass whereas the QB sells the play, properly gets depth in his dropback, has patience to let the rush come in, and then puts proper touch and air on the ball to lead it into the RBs hands.

He does not do this well and really never has...
A lot of things have to go right for a RB screen to work.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/2/2018 9:53 am : link
No one thing is especially difficult - for professionals - but you only need one to go wrong to screw up the play. The Giants have been fairly bad at all of them for years. Blame Eli for the bad throws, Jacobs/Williams/etc. for the drops and poor reads, the various Linemen for the missed blocks and early releases. It all adds up to a low percentage of execution, and the CBAís limits on practice time havenít helped. A team can only invest so many snaps in correcting a weakness.
RE: The most ridiculous thing I consistently read on BBI  
Pep22 : 5/2/2018 10:03 am : link
In comment 13950139 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
Is that Eli canít throw a screen pass. Executing a screen takes coordination and timing between the OL and RB. If it is executed properly the QB is literally dumping the ball off to the RB five yards away. What makes anyone think Eli would have trouble completing that pass? Itís beyond ridiculous. It seemed to work fine when Tiki was here and our OL was decent.

I think some fans watch Eli throw one at the feet of the RB and think it was a bad throw. The vast majority of those instances Eli is just throwing it away on a broken play rather than turn it over or let the RB get tackled for a five yard loss.


Screen passes become lawn darts when Eli is throwing them
Eli didn't seem to have trouble throwing screen passes...  
Klaatu : 5/2/2018 10:11 am : link
To Tiki Barber and Derrick Ward.
The play has to be sold.....  
Simms11 : 5/2/2018 10:15 am : link
in addition to the Oline getting out to do there job. Lastly, would like to see better blocking from the WRs. Both Burress and Toomer were very adept at blocking and that also helps in the screen game too.
Even screen passes fail  
idiotsavant : 5/2/2018 10:15 am : link
If you fail to put the opponent's front 7 on the horns of a dilemma on each and every play as to "is it a run or pass."

If they know it's not run and are therefore able to get skinny and take risks and blow shit up, by definition your playing WUS ball and the moment of QB delay or hesitation (Waiting for ol to get out there in position) mentioned above won't be there.

Forget the screen. Key to the season is a reliable and legit outside run threat.
It would be confusing to be how a QB  
gmen9892 : 5/2/2018 10:25 am : link
Can just forget how to throw a screen pass after having many years of successfully doing so. Its not like its an arm issue. Maybe its just a coincidence that Eli hasnt been good at that past 6-7 years where the OL has also been very bad? Could it be that also they NEVER practiced screen passes in McAdoo's terrible offense? I can probably count on one hand the amount of well-timed/well-executed screens that were called in the last 4 years.
many great screens have the DL practically on top of the QB  
xman : 5/2/2018 10:31 am : link
and then he releases the short pass to the RB. Not always but there are times when this happens. Good luck with Eli doing that.
Tiki fixed many of Eli's throws.
Vereen  
djm : 5/2/2018 10:35 am : link
caught 59 passes in 2015. 44 last year. Gallman caught 34 last year in limited time as a rookie.

Screen passes were probably the last thing on a list of 100 of what was wrong with that shit show of an offense.

And please stop with this thing that Eli can't throw a screen. Tiki went bananas with Eli under center and did a lot of damage out of the backfield. Perkins showed promise in 2016 out of the backfield.

Yea,  
Glover : 5/2/2018 10:39 am : link
Eli doesn't have the touch to be effective in the screen game.
Don't expect him to fix all of his problems in one off season, hopefully he can seize the opportunity that Barkley presents as a pass catcher.
Hopefully.
Eli sucks at throwing screen passes...  
M.S. : 5/2/2018 10:45 am : link



...highly inaccurate.

Can't lead a guy into a spot.

Can't hit a guy AT a spot.

Don't know why it is, but Eli is scary inaccurate in the flat 5-10 yards away from where he stands.

It's gotten to the point where -- he knows he sucks so badly -- that he almost mechanically tries to just push the ball to where he hopes it should go.
A RB screen is probably the most complicated play in football  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/2/2018 10:48 am : link
Good timing and sense by the QB, good deception, football IQ, and athletic movement by the OL, and good abilities from
the QB and RB. We probably didn't have this in spades last few years.
RE: RE: Weren't The Screen Passes With Tiki Very Effective?  
SterlingArcher : 5/2/2018 11:00 am : link
In comment 13950237 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13950140 Trainmaster said:


Quote:


If so, what changed? No Gilbride? No Tiki?


No Snee.
No Seubert.
You are spot on!
Lol at the  
JCin332 : 5/2/2018 11:27 am : link
short passes...then when he puts a perfectly placed ball on a slant that OBJ takes 80 yards to the house say "OBJ bails him out again"...
Lol at the "experts" on here who say he can't throw screens or  
JCin332 : 5/2/2018 11:27 am : link
short passes...then when he puts a perfectly placed ball on a slant that OBJ takes 80 yards to the house say "OBJ bails him out again"...
Please  
JerseyCityJoe : 5/2/2018 11:31 am : link
Eli has been horrible at screens and swing passes. I saw every pass he threw to Tiki and for everyone he caught they missed on two others. He has never been comfortable with these touch passes and saying he has been is just revisionist history.
RE: Please  
Section331 : 5/2/2018 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13950664 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
Eli has been horrible at screens and swing passes. I saw every pass he threw to Tiki and for everyone he caught they missed on two others. He has never been comfortable with these touch passes and saying he has been is just revisionist history.


This is utter bullshit. If anyone is guilty of revisionist history, it is you. I saw every pass Eli threw to Tiki at Giants Stadium live. They missed on a few, but hit on far more. The idea that it was one out of 3 is moronic.
Screen passes  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/2/2018 12:24 pm : link
work best when defenses rush with heavy pressure so that there is a lot of space at the second level. They can be very hard to execute against a cover-2 defense.

The Giants offensive line has been so bad over the last near-decade, that defenses are getting immediate pressure rushing only 4 guys and are sitting in cover 2.
Defenses have been able to sit back, get pressure with minimal numbers and use linebackers and cornerbacks to take away the flats where Eli would check down or throw a screen.

The efficacy of a screen pass going forward will be less about Barkley's ability to catch the ball, and more about our offensive line's ability to offer a run game and be able to pass-protect.
Would be nice if we could, that's for sure.  
Dave in Hoboken : 5/2/2018 12:25 pm : link
.
RE: Screen passes  
JCin332 : 5/2/2018 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13950744 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
work best when defenses rush with heavy pressure so that there is a lot of space at the second level. They can be very hard to execute against a cover-2 defense.

The Giants offensive line has been so bad over the last near-decade, that defenses are getting immediate pressure rushing only 4 guys and are sitting in cover 2.
Defenses have been able to sit back, get pressure with minimal numbers and use linebackers and cornerbacks to take away the flats where Eli would check down or throw a screen.

The efficacy of a screen pass going forward will be less about Barkley's ability to catch the ball, and more about our offensive line's ability to offer a run game and be able to pass-protect.


Great analysis thanks....
Paul  
JerseyCityJoe : 5/2/2018 12:38 pm : link
Eli just seems to panic when he is making those throws. He's never had the knack and I doubt he will get it now.
It's funny, Eli didn't seem to have a problem throwing screens  
Matt M. : 5/2/2018 1:08 pm : link
when Tiki was here.
RE: It's funny, Eli didn't seem to have a problem throwing screens  
Matt M. : 5/2/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13950849 Matt M. said:
Quote:
when Tiki was here.
Or Bradshaw. However, we didn't incorporate a lot of screens in McAdoo's offense.
All threads like..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/2/2018 2:23 pm : link
these do is give people a chance to take more free shots at eli.

They don't have any metrics to show he's bad at screen passes. He just is. Unless he has a back who can catch. Then he still is, but the wonderback bails him out.

It is past the point of inane hilarity.
Is there any pass Eli is/was good at?  
dep026 : 5/2/2018 2:26 pm : link
He cant throw long
He cant throw short or screens
He throws too high on intermediate throws.

How the hell did he ever deserve a chance to start?
RE: All threads like..  
Matt M. : 5/2/2018 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13951040 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
these do is give people a chance to take more free shots at eli.

They don't have any metrics to show he's bad at screen passes. He just is. Unless he has a back who can catch. Then he still is, but the wonderback bails him out.

It is past the point of inane hilarity.
You're right, but I still can't stand it. People act like Eli is Trent Dilfer or the like outside of a couple of games in the post season.
RE: Is there any pass Eli is/was good at?  
Matt M. : 5/2/2018 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13951048 dep026 said:
Quote:
He cant throw long
He cant throw short or screens
He throws too high on intermediate throws.

How the hell did he ever deserve a chance to start?
I know you are being sarcastic, but we can concede that Eli has had issues with touch on some short throws. But, let's not ignore how successful the screen was with Barber and Bradshaw on the receiving end. I don't think anyone here could seriously argue that Eli is the equal of Brady. But, the amount of hate for him I simply will never understand. He has been an excellent QB for us for more than a decade.

In fact, I actually think one of his best seasons was 2010. Yes, he threw 25 INTs. But, that was the crazy year with all the tipped passes and wrong routes run. It seemed like he was en route to monster games every week outside the one or two big mental lapses by receivers that year.

The last two years I honestly believe were on McAdoo and Eli has a lot left.
I always think of this play when this debate gets brought up...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2018 2:44 pm : link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWW0-JpmkQk


just wish I had a metric...
Well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/2/2018 2:46 pm : link
metrics are always better than choosing one failed screen pass.

I think you know the difference, but I'm really not fucking sure.
Oh stop  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2018 2:49 pm : link
you know i was just giving you shit for a silly comment...
I will give him some leeway though  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2018 2:51 pm : link
since it was only his first pass of the season.

He needed to get warmed up...
rueben randle  
sundayatone : 5/2/2018 3:02 pm : link
it was his fault,like always.
You mean..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/2/2018 3:07 pm : link
the Reuben Randle who went on after the Giants to make multiple All-Pro teams??

Oh that's right - it is an eli thread and guess who shows up??
RE: You mean..  
sundayatone : 5/2/2018 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13951144 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Reuben Randle who went on after the Giants to make multiple All-Pro teams??

Oh that's right - it is an eli thread and guess who shows up??


i love these eli cannot dance threads.
Randle definitely could have improved his blocking  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2018 3:17 pm : link
on all those failed screens. You just never saw that because the screen failed closer the LOS...
dep026  
arniefez : 5/2/2018 4:06 pm : link
Eli is a Hall of Fame QB who is good at almost everything. Scrambling for first downs and throwing screen passes are two things he's not good at. But knowing now what I didn't know in 2004 I'd sign up for the Eli trade every time. One of my top 10 all time favorite NY players period in all sports.
Eli is more than capable  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/2/2018 4:39 pm : link
of throwing screen passes. His short throws don't have the same touch as his deep ball, and there are other QBs that execute the short throw better, but he is more than fine at it.

The problem, again, is that our offensive line is atrocious. Defenses had no reason to sell-out to bum-rush the QB. They were getting pressure with minimal effort and could keep linebackers at home.

On top of that, we haven't exactly had the most sure-handed running backs in the receiving game either. I was excited for Vereen, but due to the O-Line issues, everything he could do was negated.
In  
Dragon : 5/3/2018 6:45 am : link
Eli we trust to sink or swim, lets not forget he's got lead feet, lol.
Here is a list from 2014  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2018 10:24 am : link
Eli is 4th worst in NFL

Name Team Yds Total Screen Yds Screen Yds %
Nick Foles PHI 2891 474 16.4%
Alex D. Smith KC 3313 472 14.2%
Andy Dalton CIN 4294 549 12.8%
Chad Henne JAX 3241 409 12.6%
Cam Newton CAR 3379 389 11.5%
Ben Roethlisberger PIT 4276 481 11.2%
Terrelle Pryor OAK 1798 200 11.1%
Aaron Rodgers GB 2536 275 10.8%
Matthew Stafford DET 4647 490 10.5%
Peyton Manning DEN 5477 575 10.5%
Josh McCown CHI 1829 192 10.5%
Robert Griffin III WAS 3203 314 9.8%
Tom Brady NE 4343 410 9.4%
Christian Ponder MIN 1648 149 9.0%
Matt Cassel MIN 1807 151 8.4%
Sam Bradford SL 1689 141 8.3%
Russell Wilson SEA 3357 266 7.9%
Matt Ryan ATL 4515 357 7.9%
Andrew Luck IND 3822 299 7.8%
Geno Smith NYJ 3036 237 7.8%
Jason Campbell CLV 2015 151 7.5%
Philip Rivers SD 4478 326 7.3%
Drew Brees NO 5162 328 6.4%
Matthew McGloin OAK 1547 91 5.9%
Carson Palmer ARZ 4274 217 5.1%
Ryan Tannehill MIA 3913 186 4.8%
Ryan Fitzpatrick TEN 2462 116 4.7%
Tony Romo DAL 3844 175 4.6%
Matt Schaub HST 2310 104 4.5%
Case Keenum HST 1760 74 4.2%
Colin Kaepernick SF 3197 129 4.0%
Jay Cutler CHI 2621 102 3.9%
E.J. Manuel BUF 1972 75 3.8%
Joe Flacco BLT 3912 126 3.2%
Eli Manning NYG 3818 99 2.6%
Kellen Clemens SL 1673 38 2.3%
Mike Glennon TB 2608 39 1.5%
Brandon Weeden CLV 1731 16 0.9%

Here is a video example from 2017 that shows that Eli hasnt progressed much with entirely new players, coaches and schemes

Eli Screen Pass - ( New Window )
Some of you are terrible  
djm : 5/3/2018 10:35 am : link
An we stop speaking in absolutes? Heís terrible at this terrible at that? Same offenders every thread. Same, over the top exaggerated crap. You get called out and move to the next thread where you shit all over it once again with the same exaggerated horse crap. Rinse repeat.
He's been around long enough to be able to draw conclusions  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 11:14 am : link
On what he's good at. It's year 14. I prefer having some data to go by, but only a certified Homer would pretend he was ever tremendously accurate. It took an offense built around the 5 and 7 yard slant to get him consistently above 60%.
The only problem with our screen passes are:  
PatersonPlank : 5/3/2018 11:20 am : link
Our RB's can't catch
Our OL gets pushed back into either Eli or the RB, making the play break down.

Its completely illogical to think Eli can't throw a 5 yard pass
RE: Here is a list from 2014  
Section331 : 5/3/2018 11:25 am : link
In comment 13952402 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Eli is 4th worst in NFL



OK, but where did you get this data? His RB's in 2014 were Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings, neither would remind anyone of Tiki. Context matters. If you can point to seasons when he had good receiving backs and still had poor numbers, fine, but cherry-picking one season when he had poor RB's who were even worse receivers isn't exactly fair.
Section...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 11:39 am : link
I think I found the source of the stats about the screens.

In 2014, Eli only attempted 14 screen to RB's all year. He completed 9 of them for 42 yards.

Such a small sample size. Does Eli not throw the screen well or dis the system rarely utilize them?
Look at bottom of page - ( New Window )
RE: Section...  
Thegratefulhead : 5/3/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13952563 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I think I found the source of the stats about the screens.

In 2014, Eli only attempted 14 screen to RB's all year. He completed 9 of them for 42 yards.

Such a small sample size. Does Eli not throw the screen well or dis the system rarely utilize them? Look at bottom of page - ( New Window )
I can play the position. He can throw them, it just is not a strength. There is this extra flick of the wrist to get more spin on the ball that makes it float, and you throw to a location rather than directly at the back. Eli, far too often throws it right to the back with no loft at all. They are professionals, they should be able to catch what they put their hands on. It is harder on so short a pass though, so little time for the back to react. You have to lead the back to the open space because you can see the defense in a way the back cannot because he is trying to sell the screen. Eli is mediocre at the screen pass. I have watched every game the man has played as most of you have. Anyone really think he does it well?
Good post Dead. This is absolutely crazy for anyone  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 1:30 pm : link
to think Eli throws a good screen pass. I hardly ever post what I am about to say but it really warrants it...

"Do you guys even watch the games?"

I also can't believe I have to say this but it warrants it...

"If you watch the games and still think Eli is good at throwing screens...you are the definition of a Giant homer".
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