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Leave it to a Wash. Post writer to question the Barkley pick

GFAN52 : 5/2/2018 2:21 pm
Long article basically saying the Giants overvalued Barkley and should have gone with Darnold, summed up with this statement:

Quote:
Time will tell if Gettleman and the Giants made the right choice, but if history is any guide, it was a shortsighted move that could keep the team at the bottom of the standings for the foreseeable future.

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RE: RE: Some of you should really find some highlights of Tiki Barber  
djm : 5/2/2018 4:36 pm : link
In comment 13951293 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13951286 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


to jog your memory - so you can remember what a back like Barkley can do that fringe journeymen like Darkwa, Jennings, and Gallman can't.



Odds are that Barkley is never as good as Tiki was, because vergy few are.


I would say the giants and most scouts don’t agree. Let’s not forget tiki needed two full seasons to even become a pro out there. Then he needed one more year to become a star. Then he went through the fumbles and didn’t reach his peak until his 7th season.

Barkley won’t need 7 seasons.
uh huh  
Greg from LI : 5/2/2018 4:37 pm : link
We'll see, won't we?
Barkley is going to be ridiculous  
djm : 5/2/2018 4:37 pm : link
I have no doubt.
RE: RE: The fact remains that running back  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 4:38 pm : link
In comment 13951268 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13951146 eugibs said:


Quote:


is the least valuable position on the field other than kicker and punter. It has been proven time and again that you can find guys off the street who can ably play that position. Quarterback is a very different story. If Darnold is a star, the Giants decision is a disaster regardless of what Barkley does.





That is spot on. The RB position may be more fungible than the K position. The K position is extremely difficult to find one who can consistently deliver and handle the enormous stress since most games, I believe, are separated by less than a 6 points.


So if Darnold is a star and SB is a star and the Giants win 2 Super Bowls but the Jets also win 2, then the pick was a disaster? That doesn't make sense.
Eugibs  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 4:38 pm : link
why stop at RB? Just sell Beckham and replace with Marquis Lee and Dez Bryant, right?
You can get elite production from a low draft pick...  
Dunedin81 : 5/2/2018 4:39 pm : link
and high draft picks at the position bust because of injury or just the speed of the pro game. Additionally, longevity in a running back is rare, especially lately (go back five years, see how many of the top RBs are still top RBs, or are even still in the game). But the difference between elite production for a running back, especially one who catches passes as well, and a "replacement level back" is still quite substantial.
It’s insane how dumb people are  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 4:47 pm : link
who’s replacing LeVeon Bell even at 85%? No one. Put Darkwa and Perkins over there and have fun watching Brown get tripled again.

How did Kerwyn Williams and AP do backing up David Johnson? THey barely sniffed 50% of his 2016 production for yardage and it’s not even worth discussing the TDs.
RE:  
RobCarpenter : 5/2/2018 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13951336 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Tiki Barber posted the third-best yards from scrimmage season of all time in 2005. What exactly constitutes "much better" than that?

See, this is what's amusing about the hype bandwagon. The same people making these absurd statements also are tut-tutting about how unfair it will be when people consider anything less than 2000 yards rushing to be a successful season for poor Saquon. You can't have it both ways - either he's the bestest super-dee-duper player ever to grace an NFL field, or he's not. He either lives up to the ludicrous hype, or he doesn't.


I think if he gets more than 1,500 total yards combined in rushing and passing that would be 'much better' than Tiki did -- and about 200 more than Tiki had in his first two seasons combined.

Tiki was a good player but Barkley -- like OBJ -- is a home run threat every time he has the ball. Tiki wasn't.
Tiki did that at age 30?  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 4:53 pm : link
I thought RBs don’t live past 25?
OK, if that's the case then I don't get the comparison  
Greg from LI : 5/2/2018 4:54 pm : link
You're saying he'd be much better than rookie 2nd round pick Tiki Barber? You're probably right....but who cares? Is he going to be much better than 2005 Tiki Barber?

For a guy who supposedly wasn't a home-run hitter, Tiki sure broke a shitload of really long runs.
Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/2/2018 4:54 pm : link
it will only apply to certain metrics:

Quote:
The point is that the difference between elite and replacement level running backs is not that dramatic. You can get 85% of what an elite running back gets you without having to invest anything


If you replace a LB with a lesser player, you'll likely get at least 85% of the total in tackles in return. Same with most defensive positions.

That's why this line of argumentation is pretty poor. The recent trend is to say RB's aren't valuable, but if you have a damn good RB, the past few years have shown you'll be in the hunt.

Trying to say two mediocre players can replace a great player in certain stats is pretty useless. You can do it for almost any position, including QB. Prescott isn't as good as Romo, but his rookie year TD/INT ratio I think was better than Romo's ever was.
RE: Tiki did that at age 30?  
Greg from LI : 5/2/2018 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13951377 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I thought RBs don’t live past 25?


Yes, he did, and no, they generally don't last very long. All of that is part of what made Tiki so exceptional. However, as I know you're very well aware, his relatively few carries in his first three seasons likely contributed greatly to his durability and longevity at an age when most RBs decline significantly. Barkley isn't going to have those lightly used years at the beginning of his career.
RE: OK, if that's the case then I don't get the comparison  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13951381 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You're saying he'd be much better than rookie 2nd round pick Tiki Barber? You're probably right....but who cares? Is he going to be much better than 2005 Tiki Barber?

For a guy who supposedly wasn't a home-run hitter, Tiki sure broke a shitload of really long runs.


Tiki seems to be an anomaly. I don’t really get it anyway, that was year 10 for him when RBs are considered dead and forgotten. Let’s all hope we get that from Barkley year 10 but the argument here is Barkley has the talent to do that year 1.
RE: OK, if that's the case then I don't get the comparison  
RobCarpenter : 5/2/2018 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13951381 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You're saying he'd be much better than rookie 2nd round pick Tiki Barber? You're probably right....but who cares? Is he going to be much better than 2005 Tiki Barber?

For a guy who supposedly wasn't a home-run hitter, Tiki sure broke a shitload of really long runs.


When he wasn't fumbling the ball.

I'm saying if you are comparing the players you should be comparing how they do as rookies.

And I'll go out on a limb and say if he stays healthy he'll have better career stats than Tiki.
RE: It’s insane how dumb people are  
eugibs : 5/2/2018 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13951366 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
who’s replacing LeVeon Bell even at 85%? No one. Put Darkwa and Perkins over there and have fun watching Brown get tripled again.

How did Kerwyn Williams and AP do backing up David Johnson? THey barely sniffed 50% of his 2016 production for yardage and it’s not even worth discussing the TDs.


I don't understand why my comparison of Darkwa/Gallman to McCoy is unfair. McCoy had more carries than both of them combined, and the Darkwa/Gallman platoon was slightly more productive with its carries. There are only so many plays in a game. If McCoy gets 30 carries in a game and Darkwa/Gallman get 15 each - what difference does it make?


Some people have brought up McCoy's ability to catch passes and I think that is a fair point, so I've tried to clarify that I'm not saying there is zero difference between McCoy and the Giants platoon. What I'm saying is the difference is not worth heavy investment in terms of dollars and draft picks to have the elite running back when you could be addressing more important positions on the field that also have holes.

I would also point out that this entire discussion assumes that Saquon Barkley is instantly a top 3 to 5 running back in the league. His entire value to the team is premised on that fact. If you getting anything less than that from him, the pick is a bust based on what you invested. So, the margin of error with picking him is virtually zero. Another reason why I don't think selecting a running back so high is a good idea.

There's like three different debates happening in this thread  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2018 5:05 pm : link
all at once, but it's really stunning to me how quickly we're willing to forget about things that happened on championship teams only ten years ago.

With a strong offensive line a few middling runningbacks did some excellent, important work for this franchise en route to a championship season and, until someone went stupid and shot himself in the leg, what looked like a repeat season in the making.
eugibs  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 5:14 pm : link
because Darkwa and Perkins suck and don’t deserve 30 carries a game. If they were any good we’d be a run heavy offense to take pressure off the QB. Just amassing a decent YPC doesn’t = production.

Care to address why AP and Williams didn’t even sniff what David Johnson is capable of? I’m dying to hear this.
RE: RE: RE: Not just WaPo  
Mike in NJ : 5/2/2018 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13951160 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13951078 Mike in NJ said:


Quote:


In comment 13951046 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


many people suggesting a similar argument. This guy at the ringer does as well.

And for the same reasons many fans discussed on here. The Ringer - ( New Window )



Clark’s argument on The Ringer was all over the place. He first argues that taking a RB high doesn’t make financial sense, which is a fairly common argument people are making. If that’s his stance, fine, but later in the article he says the smart choice would have been to choose a QB to have sit behind Manning. So it is more financially responsible to pay a guy to sit on the bench for the next 3 years than it would be to pay a potential All-Pro RB?



QB's get paid the most money out of any position, so having him sit for 1 season to develop is perfect. Look at Wentz and Goff. Goff redshirted came in and lighted it up. Wentz played as a Rookie and the following year he was a MVP.

Both teams took the money they would be using on a QB and invested in Weapons around them because they had the money to do so.

I don't get what's so hard to comprehend there. Easier transition, and more money to distribute to other players to make a better overall team.

Instead of overpaying a rookie at a position that is least valuable, and more injury riddled then any other position on the field offense or defense (excluding of course punters and kickers).




There are 2 issues with this line of thinking. First, it seems pretty apparent from everything that has been reported and all of the actions that the franchise has made this offseason that they think Eli Manning has 2 good years left at a minimum. If that is their evaluation of him, why would we take a quarterback and let him sit on the bench for 2 full seasons? Teams in that situation don't take a QB top 5 in the draft.

Second, where are the contending teams that are spending a significantly lower than normal percentage of their salary cap on the QB position? According to Vegas, these are the teams with the best odds to win this year:

1. New England (12.15%)
2. Pittsburgh (12.27%)
3. Philadelphia (9.25%)
4. Minnesota (12.87%)
5. Green Bay (11.84%)
6. New Orleans (12.86%)
7. Oakland (12.96%)
8. Atlanta (11.33%)
9. LA Rams (4.22%)
10. Seattle (13.39%)

The number in parenthesis is the percentage of the salary cap that each team has allocated to their starting quarterbacks. So of the predicted 10 best teams in the league, 1 of them is paying a small amount to the QB.

Sure the Eagles did it last year, but they are the outlier, and not even a good example at that. They won the Super Bowl behind a strong defense, and the number 3 rushing attack in the league.
I'll say it again,  
Go Terps : 5/2/2018 5:20 pm : link
the Giants could draft an inanimate carbon rod and arguments would be made here about how it was a good pick.

That's not to knock Barkley, who I expect to be really good. It's just that since Thursday some odd shit is being said that no one would have said last Wednesday.

1. Running backs are easier to find than quarterbacks (and nearly every other position).
2. Running backs tend to have a shorter shelf life.


You could have made those two statements on BBI two weeks ago and the responses would have generally been along the lines of, "No shit." Now we're seeing those generally accepted statements being challenged.

Perceptions and observations seem to get clouded around here when it involves questioning the Giants. I noticed it first on BBI when we signed Lavar Arrington years ago. He was openly mocked as a punchline when he was on the Redskins, but when we signed him it was a great pickup.

Questioning the strategy behind the Barkley pick, and what it says about the front office's perception of where this team actually is, is more than fair.
not only that, but it directly contradicts what has been accepted CW  
Greg from LI : 5/2/2018 5:26 pm : link
here for a long time, which was that a quality OL is the key to a good running game much more so than a star running back. The best Giants rushing attack of my lifetime featured a 4th round pick, a 7th round pick, and a castoff 7th round pick from another team.
Some people on here as well as so called  
DonnieD89 : 5/2/2018 5:41 pm : link
sports writer experts often use sports analytics to prove there arguments never to consider the impact of such a talent that will gain full attention of the defensive from many aspects of the game. Analytics cannot measure how the opposing teams adjust to a RB that can split out into the slot and run an accurate route or pass protect picking up a blitz or force a defense to respect the run. It’s all about impacting the game.
RE: Some of you should really find some highlights of Tiki Barber  
DonQuixote : 5/2/2018 6:08 pm : link
In comment 13951286 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
to jog your memory - so you can remember what a back like Barkley can do that fringe journeymen like Darkwa, Jennings, and Gallman can't.


Or Bradshaw, one of my favorite Giants.

I watch this from time to time just to jog my memory. Great burst, power, elusive. WAY underrated.
Lonk - ( New Window )
Last Year the Eagles Won  
Giants34 : 5/2/2018 6:17 pm : link
Without a RB on the roster making more than $750,000. We just drafted a RB to pay him $31 million, all guaranteed.

For all of you discussing Tiki, incidentally, we found him in the 2nd round. We were also pretty good when we had Bradshaw carrying the load, and we got him in the 7th round. We also coaxed 1000 yard seasons out of Jacobs (4th round) and Derrick Ward, neither of whom were even close to 1st round draft picks.

You don't need anything close to a 1st round pick to succeed at the RB position in the NFL.
All you are doing is pointing to  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 6:17 pm : link
cases where production was high using less resources, which anyone can do for any position.

It comes down to the highest ranked QB not being close to where Barkley was ranked AND said QB possibly sitting for 2 years. It also doesn’t factor in Shurmur and how he just might be comfortable with and able to get good QB play without investing in a top pick.

Blast the pick all you want, but there’s many factors that exist outside of the talent of the players in question.

And we just might be seeing a shift in this sport. I’ve said it countless times, who’s taking the reigns from Brady, Rodgers, Brees and the 2004 class? Wilson, Wentz who just got injured and who else?

Teams will be finding new ways to win without having to strap themselves with Kirk Cousins contracts, I guarantee it.
UConn  
Go Terps : 5/2/2018 6:22 pm : link
Quote:
Teams will be finding new ways to win without having to strap themselves with Kirk Cousins contracts, I guarantee it.


I've been calling for this approach for a couple years and gotten killed for it by several posters, including you I think.
RE:  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:23 pm : link
In comment 13951336 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Tiki Barber posted the third-best yards from scrimmage season of all time in 2005. What exactly constitutes "much better" than that?

See, this is what's amusing about the hype bandwagon. The same people making these absurd statements also are tut-tutting about how unfair it will be when people consider anything less than 2000 yards rushing to be a successful season for poor Saquon. You can't have it both ways - either he's the bestest super-dee-duper player ever to grace an NFL field, or he's not. He either lives up to the ludicrous hype, or he doesn't.

You are Eh of the few guys that I’m actually shocked with by your disdain for the Barkley pick. You really wanted a freakin QB just for the sake of taking a QB? Brilliant. But knowing you, you’d have bitched about that too. Especially if the one they chose turns out to be a turd, which they obviously felt was likely
RE: All you are doing is pointing to  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2018 6:26 pm : link
In comment 13951504 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

Teams will be finding new ways to win without having to strap themselves with Kirk Cousins contracts, I guarantee it.


You can say a lot about the NFL, but there isn't a whole lot of revolutionizing the game going on. Even the most coldly unemotional and non-sentimental franchise and by far the finest head coach and football mind in the history of the sport understands how important that QB is to their process.
RE: I'll say it again,  
lax counsel : 5/2/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13951425 Go Terps said:
Quote:
the Giants could draft an inanimate carbon rod and arguments would be made here about how it was a good pick.

That's not to knock Barkley, who I expect to be really good. It's just that since Thursday some odd shit is being said that no one would have said last Wednesday.

1. Running backs are easier to find than quarterbacks (and nearly every other position).
2. Running backs tend to have a shorter shelf life.

You could have made those two statements on BBI two weeks ago and the responses would have generally been along the lines of, "No shit." Now we're seeing those generally accepted statements being challenged.

Perceptions and observations seem to get clouded around here when it involves questioning the Giants. I noticed it first on BBI when we signed Lavar Arrington years ago. He was openly mocked as a punchline when he was on the Redskins, but when we signed him it was a great pickup.

Questioning the strategy behind the Barkley pick, and what it says about the front office's perception of where this team actually is, is more than fair.


Go terps, you make an excellent point. It's incredible how the fans here fall in line and think the organization is beyond question. When a poster suggests that selecting a running back with the second pick with an aging qb who has lead this team to 4 losing seasons of the last 5 - with the one good season featuring one of the worst offenses in the NFL- might now be prudent, they are immediately dismissed, or, worse, personally attacked.

You would think with this being one of the worst run franchises in the NFL over the past half decade plus, posters questioning the direction of the franchise would not be met with such contempt and derision.

If you were to take a poll of the general fan base prior to the start of the 2017 season, without hindsight of the disaster that 2017 became, I bet more than half would question picking a running back with the number 2 overall pick. Now that Gettlemen told us it's all ok, the decline of the qb was just in our heads, he must be right! How dare anyone question this team.

Then I come across posters on this thread making legit points that you can find running back value easier in later rounds than at the qb and they are immediately dismissed and mocked. However, the defense one Giants can do no wrong poster uses is David Johnson- a freakin late THIRD round pick- as justification for taking a running back early and/or duplicating value value at the position by committee is mind boggling.

It's amazing the well reasoned opposing view points are so quickly dismissed. But if we're all happy using DG hollow one line platitudes as justification that all is well in Giants land, so be it. Good luck.
RE: not only that, but it directly contradicts what has been accepted CW  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13951432 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
here for a long time, which was that a quality OL is the key to a good running game much more so than a star running back. The best Giants rushing attack of my lifetime featured a 4th round pick, a 7th round pick, and a castoff 7th round pick from another team.

So, there’s only one way to build a team? Super Bowl teams have won with shitty QBs too. You can say the same about any position. again, drafting a QB that they didn’t think was any good would be asinine and a whiny fan base shouldn’t influence these decisions
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13951511 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Teams will be finding new ways to win without having to strap themselves with Kirk Cousins contracts, I guarantee it.



I've been calling for this approach for a couple years and gotten killed for it by several posters, including you I think.


I’ve been with you on this one. Paying market value at QB is pointless unless you are getting a top player at the position. You can get away with paying top dollar at other positions and having the value not work out, but you can’t at QB.

RB contracts are a value right now, IMO. They are super low because they were devalued for so long and I think that will shift, especially when we are talking about dual threats like Bell, Johnson and hopefully Barkley.
Some people on here as well as so called  
DonnieD89 : 5/2/2018 6:29 pm : link
sports writer experts often use sports analytics to prove there arguments never to consider the impact of such a talent that will gain full attention of the defensive from many aspects of the game. Analytics cannot measure how the opposing teams adjust to a RB that can split out into the slot and run an accurate route or pass protect picking up a blitz or force a defense to respect the run. It’s all about impacting the game.
I have disdain for the pick because I wouldn't pick ANY RB at #2  
Greg from LI : 5/2/2018 6:30 pm : link
and because the hype for this guy is so absurdly over the top and ridiculous, and so far out of proportion to his actual accomplishments. And, out of complete disclosure, because I despise that Penn State's football program even exists anymore, and I can't fathom that any decent person would want to be a part of that cult, so I'd rather not have any of their players on the team I cheer for.
The “don’t draft a RB in the first round”  
ryanmkeane : 5/2/2018 6:32 pm : link
is really a tired argument at this point. Gurley was essentially the league MVP, Fournette ran over the entire Steelers defense twice this season (including the playoff game), Elliott has a tremendous impact on the Cowboys, etc. Barkley will completely change the way we operate as an offense and how the defense plays.
RE: There's like three different debates happening in this thread  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:32 pm : link
In comment 13951397 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
all at once, but it's really stunning to me how quickly we're willing to forget about things that happened on championship teams only ten years ago.

With a strong offensive line a few middling runningbacks did some excellent, important work for this franchise en route to a championship season and, until someone went stupid and shot himself in the leg, what looked like a repeat season in the making.

And again, apparently there is only one way to build a team...

I keep getting told that it’s a different game now, but then get told to look at our teMs from a decade ago. Depends on whoever’s agenda I guess
RE: eugibs  
eugibs : 5/2/2018 6:32 pm : link
In comment 13951413 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
because Darkwa and Perkins suck and don’t deserve 30 carries a game. If they were any good we’d be a run heavy offense to take pressure off the QB. Just amassing a decent YPC doesn’t = production.

Care to address why AP and Williams didn’t even sniff what David Johnson is capable of? I’m dying to hear this.


Sure, David Johnson had a phenomenal statistical season in 2016. It is better to have a player like David Johnson than to not have a player like David Johnson. But that says nothing about what it makes sense to give up to have a player like David Johnson on your team.

David Johnson was a late third round pick. The team went 7-8-1 in 2016 and he missed virtually the entire 2017 team. Maybe he comes back this year looking like the same player. Maybe he does not. Should the Titans have taken him second over Marcus Mariotta? Now, I personally think that Mariotta stinks. But David Johnson's best year might very well be behind him and Marcus Mariotta still has a chance to be a franchise quarterback. At this point, I still think you'd rather have the quarterback than the running back.

I am not saying that I wouldn't like the Giants to have a star running back. I am saying I wouldn't spend the second pick in the draft to try to get that. You can always find someone to competently run the ball (and if for one season you can't because your star running back got hurt and you had invested nothing in the backup - you can get one the next season). However, you can't always find someone to competently quarterback an offense, rush the quarterback, or cover a wide receiver.
Greg you  
ryanmkeane : 5/2/2018 6:33 pm : link
really need to re-evaluate how you think about things if you don’t like Barkley because of the Penn state scandal.
RE: RE: There's like three different debates happening in this thread  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2018 6:36 pm : link
In comment 13951532 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13951397 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


all at once, but it's really stunning to me how quickly we're willing to forget about things that happened on championship teams only ten years ago.

With a strong offensive line a few middling runningbacks did some excellent, important work for this franchise en route to a championship season and, until someone went stupid and shot himself in the leg, what looked like a repeat season in the making.


And again, apparently there is only one way to build a team...

I keep getting told that it’s a different game now, but then get told to look at our teMs from a decade ago. Depends on whoever’s agenda I guess


Is agenda some kind of catch-all excuse for dismissing things? I don't follow. What part of having a strong offensive line doesn't translate across years?
You can certainly argue or  
ryanmkeane : 5/2/2018 6:36 pm : link
prefer QB over Barkley at 2. But to say that you can’t take Barkley (the best RB prospect in a really long time) at #2, that is just extremely short sighted and stupid, quite honestly. Plenty of amazing running backs in the history of the league get taken high.
RE: I have disdain for the pick because I wouldn't pick ANY RB at #2  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13951527 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
and because the hype for this guy is so absurdly over the top and ridiculous, and so far out of proportion to his actual accomplishments. And, out of complete disclosure, because I despise that Penn State's football program even exists anymore, and I can't fathom that any decent person would want to be a part of that cult, so I'd rather not have any of their players on the team I cheer for.

I’m with ya on Penn State, but Barkley didn’t have anything to do with that and by all accounts is an incredible human being. I’m not sure how anyone on the planet would have an issue having this kind of person on the team
RE: RE: eugibs  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13951533 eugibs said:
Quote:
In comment 13951413 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


because Darkwa and Perkins suck and don’t deserve 30 carries a game. If they were any good we’d be a run heavy offense to take pressure off the QB. Just amassing a decent YPC doesn’t = production.

Care to address why AP and Williams didn’t even sniff what David Johnson is capable of? I’m dying to hear this.



Sure, David Johnson had a phenomenal statistical season in 2016. It is better to have a player like David Johnson than to not have a player like David Johnson. But that says nothing about what it makes sense to give up to have a player like David Johnson on your team.

David Johnson was a late third round pick. The team went 7-8-1 in 2016 and he missed virtually the entire 2017 team. Maybe he comes back this year looking like the same player. Maybe he does not. Should the Titans have taken him second over Marcus Mariotta? Now, I personally think that Mariotta stinks. But David Johnson's best year might very well be behind him and Marcus Mariotta still has a chance to be a franchise quarterback. At this point, I still think you'd rather have the quarterback than the running back.

I am not saying that I wouldn't like the Giants to have a star running back. I am saying I wouldn't spend the second pick in the draft to try to get that. You can always find someone to competently run the ball (and if for one season you can't because your star running back got hurt and you had invested nothing in the backup - you can get one the next season). However, you can't always find someone to competently quarterback an offense, rush the quarterback, or cover a wide receiver.


We aren’t going to agree. You’d rather pay Cousins and have Darkwa/Perkins and I’d rather pay Bell and have Case Keenum.
RE: Greg you  
kes722 : 5/2/2018 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13951537 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
really need to re-evaluate how you think about things if you don’t like Barkley because of the Penn state scandal.


That happened when SB was 14
RE: Last Year the Eagles Won  
ryanmkeane : 5/2/2018 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13951503 Giants34 said:
Quote:
Without a RB on the roster making more than $750,000. We just drafted a RB to pay him $31 million, all guaranteed.

NFL.

And they also won with Nick Foles at QB. Which pretty much cancels out your entire point.
great thing about the NFL  
mdc1 : 5/2/2018 6:41 pm : link
is that all the predictions and bullshit will be exposed when we see the on field play. Amazing how keeping score and stats reveal things of importance beyond jersey sales and popularity polls.
Greg has been hating  
ryanmkeane : 5/2/2018 6:41 pm : link
the Barkley pick because he had “the same stats or worse” as some of the other running backs. Now he doesn’t like Barkley because he went to Penn State. Just wait until Barkley has a 50 yard game.
RE: RE: RE: There's like three different debates happening in this thread  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:42 pm : link
In comment 13951541 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13951532 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13951397 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


all at once, but it's really stunning to me how quickly we're willing to forget about things that happened on championship teams only ten years ago.

With a strong offensive line a few middling runningbacks did some excellent, important work for this franchise en route to a championship season and, until someone went stupid and shot himself in the leg, what looked like a repeat season in the making.


And again, apparently there is only one way to build a team...

I keep getting told that it’s a different game now, but then get told to look at our teMs from a decade ago. Depends on whoever’s agenda I guess



Is agenda some kind of catch-all excuse for dismissing things? I don't follow. What part of having a strong offensive line doesn't translate across years?

So are you saying that having a potentially great RB prevents them from putting together a good OL? Not sure of your point. My point was that just because we won with mid round RBs a decade ago doesn’t mean that’s the only way to build a winner. Drafting a shitty QB at 2 is sure a good way to screw it up though...
We can all point to anomalies  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 6:42 pm : link
or outliers. Doesn’t make you right or smart. Just be open minded. No one wants to be left in the dust in the NFL - just going along with the same old blueprint isn’t wise especially f you try and force it.
RE: Greg has been hating  
BigBlueShock : 5/2/2018 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13951558 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
the Barkley pick because he had “the same stats or worse” as some of the other running backs. Now he doesn’t like Barkley because he went to Penn State. Just wait until Barkley has a 50 yard game.

It’s going to be unbearable. Greg is the absolute worst poster on the site when he decides he doesn’t like a player. There will never be another Giants thread without him pissing and moaning about the pick. There is no changing his mind, it’s already made up and this entire board will suffer because of it
Greg and others who didn't like the Barkley pick..  
BubbaMojo : 5/2/2018 6:46 pm : link
Will you be rooting against Barkley next season? Some of the arguments against Barkley (ex. "We'll see, won't we?" - in reference to being as good as Tiki) give me the impression that you won't enjoy in Barkley turns out to be really good. You'll almost take more pleasure in Barkley not being successful. Just my observation. Curious to your thoughts on that.
Like i said on another thread  
sharpshooter66 : 5/2/2018 6:52 pm : link
the entire value nonsense is blown completely out of proportion. Value is a philosophical opinion based on a lot of individual factors such as scheme, the players talent, character, leadership, and more things than you cam count on both hands. In the system that Shurmer wants to run, in the situation theyre in, Saquon Barkley had by far the most value of any other player in this particular draft, at this time. Period. There is nothing else to argue now. Now its just crying.
RE: I'll say it again,  
Bill L : 5/2/2018 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13951425 Go Terps said:
Quote:
the Giants could draft an inanimate carbon rod and arguments would be made here about how it was a good pick.

That's not to knock Barkley, who I expect to be really good. It's just that since Thursday some odd shit is being said that no one would have said last Wednesday.

1. Running backs are easier to find than quarterbacks (and nearly every other position).
2. Running backs tend to have a shorter shelf life.

You could have made those two statements on BBI two weeks ago and the responses would have generally been along the lines of, "No shit." Now we're seeing those generally accepted statements being challenged.

Perceptions and observations seem to get clouded around here when it involves questioning the Giants. I noticed it first on BBI when we signed Lavar Arrington years ago. He was openly mocked as a punchline when he was on the Redskins, but when we signed him it was a great pickup.

Questioning the strategy behind the Barkley pick, and what it says about the front office's perception of where this team actually is, is more than fair.
An even older maxim is that “the team with the best players usually wins”. A corollary would be that to be good you need to have good players and the better players you have, the better off you’ll be. Yet this draft season people ran away from that as fast as their legs would carry them.
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