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Eli "wasn’t sure of his Giants future before draft"...

Mike in St. Louis : 5/2/2018 4:12 pm
doesn't look like this was posted...if it was, I'll delete...

from ProFootball Talk...

“For the first time ever, I didn’t know what the future held,” he said, via the New York Daily News. “I tried not to overthink it and draw conclusions off information I didn’t know. Just had to say, ‘Hey, I have to be positive through the season, offseason, and just work out and be ready for whatever is thrown at me.’

“Obviously, I was very excited to hear news from Mr. Gettleman and Mr. Mara they wanted me back. I work extremely hard to keep my job and when you almost lose something it makes you appreciate it even more. That’s certainly the case here.”
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RE: RE: Is there even a precedent for a QB of Eli's caliber getting  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 13952369 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 13952344 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


cut or traded? Maybe Joe Montana getting traded to the Chiefs at age 37?

I honestly can't recall any others.



His big bro? Brett Favre?


I don't think those are comparable. Peyton missed an entire offseason after having four neck surgeries in two years. There was a question whether he could ever play again.

Favre "retired".
RE: RE: Just got back from dentist where I was poked  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 13952348 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13952346 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


scraped, grinded, and prodded.

Reading your posts make me feel like that wasn’t all that bad...



Yeah, well likewise. I'm sorry that the team pretty much went the exact opposite of what you said it would do so adamantly for the past 4 months.


Don't be sorry. What i wanted and what I thought they would do are two different things. Whats most important is that you were right and the Giants are so much better off because of it here on May 3rd.
RE: Now you've softened your stance and deflected that it was....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 13952351 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"both sides".

Bullsh-t. It played out exactly how Fatman said it did.

Whatever you have to do to protect your ego, I guess.


My stance is the same. I just don't go on hissy-fits like some of you on every single thread, and then portray that it is all the fault of the "other guys".

you need to take a down a few notches...
I think everybody here knows what's what....  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 10:23 am : link
Your name is just as synonymous with these conversations as mine. Don't forget that.
RE: Googs..  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 10:25 am : link
In comment 13952230 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there really aren't two sides though.

There is a side that keeps saying that Eli is finished and that his mere presence of the roster is an albatross that hurts us from signing players and building a team, which leads to a position that not drafting a QB (high) is a fatal error. We can leave the Mara conspiracy theories aside even.

There isn't a side saying Eli Manning is great and carrying the team.

The other side is basically refuting the bullshit from the first side. And for that, they are called Eli apologists, cultists, etc.

There is only one extreme position taken. The other position is basically to call out morons for wild conspiracies and for incessently using the term "Jints Central"


Man I hear you...I really do. But i don't agree. Mostly because you keep portraying this other extreme side is like hundreds of guys, and its not. There are plenty of people that disagree with idea of "keep putting Eli out there" but they aren't saying the contra is 100% wrong...
RE: My question is how come Eli gets all the praise for 2 SB wins  
djm : 5/3/2018 10:26 am : link
In comment 13951935 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
putting up memes holding the trophy or commercials flashing the rings. But when team misses playoffs 6 of 7 seasons, its a team game


Only a child or troll thinks that way. Logical nyg fans that have paid attention to the nfl for long enough would recognize Eli, flaws and all, for what he was, is and will be— a gamer. The guy is a gamer only an idiot would question what this guy can do, again, flaws and all.

Some of you think too hard or not enough.
RE: reality  
djm : 5/3/2018 10:28 am : link
In comment 13952318 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
if Giants cuts Eli Manning last year
he would have totally ended up on another team
but there is no way on earth any team would have paid him
$22,200,000

and here lies the problem


What? You wanna bet???
RE: I think everybody here knows what's what....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 13952395 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Your name is just as synonymous with these conversations as mine. Don't forget that.


Oh my, you need medication...
It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
UberAlias : 5/3/2018 11:35 am : link
was the correct way to go. Many teams in this situation would gone that route. We have an aging QB returning from a 3 win season who has not performed close to a probowl level in a few years and the offense has struggled. Even if we accept that he still has it despite the performance due to a lack of talent around him, we have to acknowledge that no one, not DG not PS, no one, can say with certainty that a drop-off isn't going to hit this year. Or next. What we can say with certainty is that it will happen, and it is not very long away. Aging is an undeniable fact of life.

The team had their pick of QBs, who they have acknowledged they liked, and are in excellent position to develop the QB of their choosing without having to rush him into action. The will never be in similar position of having their choice of QBs in the foreseeable future. What is there right now in terms of successors remains a question, as acknowledged by the team.

Look, we can disagree on things. But this position here is not outlandish by any stretch. It is not heresy to question decision given the performance these past two seasons.

We are all just going to have to see how this plays out. Anyone thinking they know the answer doesn't. None of us can see the future.
And that's fine....  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 11:37 am : link
but that reasonable, soft stance is not what is being discussed here.
In fact, that stance was the one that was applied plenty....  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 11:38 am : link
by the guys that said Eli should stay the starting QB for now. I don't think you can find a single "Eli apologist" on this board that was actually against taking a QB at 2, if there was a guy that the team had conviction for.
That was always my stance....  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 11:39 am : link
as well as jt's stance, and we were probably the most vocal "Eli apologists" over the offseason.
The picking of Barkley..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 11:44 am : link
over a QB isn't the issue. It is the commentary that picking Barkley over the QB is a complete disaster or a terrible pick, or that it was a directive from Mara all along to save face for the franchise.

Heck, there are two posters on this thread who think Shurmur, and DG were hired for the main purpose of ushering Eli to retirement in a couple of years because a new QB wasn't ever an option.

It isn't reasonable takes being debated - it is guys like Les who keeps calling people "fanboys" for some ridiculous reason, or bw who keeps referring to "Jints Central" as an incompetent, but dictatorial monolith, both calling all the shots and bungling them too.
RE: It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 13952551 UberAlias said:
Quote:
was the correct way to go. Many teams in this situation would gone that route. We have an aging QB returning from a 3 win season who has not performed close to a probowl level in a few years and the offense has struggled. Even if we accept that he still has it despite the performance due to a lack of talent around him, we have to acknowledge that no one, not DG not PS, no one, can say with certainty that a drop-off isn't going to hit this year. Or next. What we can say with certainty is that it will happen, and it is not very long away. Aging is an undeniable fact of life.

The team had their pick of QBs, who they have acknowledged they liked, and are in excellent position to develop the QB of their choosing without having to rush him into action. The will never be in similar position of having their choice of QBs in the foreseeable future. What is there right now in terms of successors remains a question, as acknowledged by the team.

Look, we can disagree on things. But this position here is not outlandish by any stretch. It is not heresy to question decision given the performance these past two seasons.

We are all just going to have to see how this plays out. Anyone thinking they know the answer doesn't. None of us can see the future.
IMO, while it's not unreasonable to have the opinion that the QB was the correct way to go, it *is* unreasonable, a week later, not to stfu, move on, and get behind the pick, player, and team. More than unreasonable, it's just plain unhealthy.
RE: The picking of Barkley..  
Thegratefulhead : 5/3/2018 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13952576 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
over a QB isn't the issue. It is the commentary that picking Barkley over the QB is a complete disaster or a terrible pick, or that it was a directive from Mara all along to save face for the franchise.

Heck, there are two posters on this thread who think Shurmur, and DG were hired for the main purpose of ushering Eli to retirement in a couple of years because a new QB wasn't ever an option.

It isn't reasonable takes being debated - it is guys like Les who keeps calling people "fanboys" for some ridiculous reason, or bw who keeps referring to "Jints Central" as an incompetent, but dictatorial monolith, both calling all the shots and bungling them too.
For the record and not that anyone cares. I REALLY like the Barkley and the entire draft really. I am Giants over anything else. Giants > than any player for me. If they can convert 3rd & 4th short and stop the other team from converting I will be a fucking happy fan and could care less that did not draft the player at 2 I wanted. I want them to win. That is all. Watching last season sucked, just about everyone was bad including Eli. If Eli can recover from the feeling the pressure due to the OL he has been playing behind for years, I think we can have a big year. I just do not know if he can.
RE: RE: It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
Thegratefulhead : 5/3/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13952605 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13952551 UberAlias said:


Quote:


was the correct way to go. Many teams in this situation would gone that route. We have an aging QB returning from a 3 win season who has not performed close to a probowl level in a few years and the offense has struggled. Even if we accept that he still has it despite the performance due to a lack of talent around him, we have to acknowledge that no one, not DG not PS, no one, can say with certainty that a drop-off isn't going to hit this year. Or next. What we can say with certainty is that it will happen, and it is not very long away. Aging is an undeniable fact of life.

The team had their pick of QBs, who they have acknowledged they liked, and are in excellent position to develop the QB of their choosing without having to rush him into action. The will never be in similar position of having their choice of QBs in the foreseeable future. What is there right now in terms of successors remains a question, as acknowledged by the team.

Look, we can disagree on things. But this position here is not outlandish by any stretch. It is not heresy to question decision given the performance these past two seasons.

We are all just going to have to see how this plays out. Anyone thinking they know the answer doesn't. None of us can see the future.

IMO, while it's not unreasonable to have the opinion that the QB was the correct way to go, it *is* unreasonable, a week later, not to stfu, move on, and get behind the pick, player, and team. More than unreasonable, it's just plain unhealthy.
Agreed Bill. Time for enthusiasm and hope. Barkley is going to be damn exciting to watch.
Yeah, no one cares. You're just wrong because  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 12:09 pm : link
the Giants didn't do what you said they should.

And yes, Barkley, OBJ and Engram  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 12:11 pm : link
will be quite the trio...
RE: Yeah, no one cares. You're just wrong because  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13952632 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
the Giants didn't do what you said they should.


You can continue to ignore or twist what people are saying, you've been doing it for months.

The problem wasn't in the reasoning, it was the delivery. You were adamant about what was going to happen, and dismissed everybody that didn't share that view as foolish.
Oh my, that medication isnt  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 12:14 pm : link
working...
RE: It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13952551 UberAlias said:
Quote:
was the correct way to go. Many teams in this situation would gone that route. We have an aging QB returning from a 3 win season who has not performed close to a probowl level in a few years and the offense has struggled. Even if we accept that he still has it despite the performance due to a lack of talent around him, we have to acknowledge that no one, not DG not PS, no one, can say with certainty that a drop-off isn't going to hit this year. Or next. What we can say with certainty is that it will happen, and it is not very long away. Aging is an undeniable fact of life.

The team had their pick of QBs, who they have acknowledged they liked, and are in excellent position to develop the QB of their choosing without having to rush him into action. The will never be in similar position of having their choice of QBs in the foreseeable future. What is there right now in terms of successors remains a question, as acknowledged by the team.

Look, we can disagree on things. But this position here is not outlandish by any stretch. It is not heresy to question decision given the performance these past two seasons.

We are all just going to have to see how this plays out. Anyone thinking they know the answer doesn't. None of us can see the future.


I pretty much agree with this post, except for the part in bold and I'll get to that in a sec.

Although I'll admit to being a 'Get Barkley' guy throughout the off-season (for the most part anyway), I totally get and understood those that were arguing that getting a QB at #2 was the way to go based on Eli's recent play. Not once did I think that someone who was adamant about selecting a QB at #2 was weird, crazy, or even wrong for feeling that way because I could see the logic behind it. I think where guys like Fats and Britt are coming from is that there was a very vocal faction of BBIers who were of the opinion of it's QB at #2 or bust and anyone who didn't agree (including the Giants) were idiots. To me that's a very arrogant (for lack of a better word) stance to take. As has been said there are plenty of ways to build a winning team for both now and the future and it seemed like some either aren't aware of that fact... or are aware of it but choose to ignore it because they think they know what's best. USUALLY (not always, see Uber's post above) these folks include the following sentence (or something like it) in their post:

'This is a once in a lifetime opportunity because we will never be picking this high again!'

Which brings me to the bolded sentence in Uber's post. Every time I've read that from someone I've winced because it's like your suggesting that there's some unwritten NFL rule that states the Giants are to never pick below pick number 8 in any given draft except for every 20-25 years. We all know no such rule exists, yet the sentence I said above has been repeated over and over throughout the off-season and I've yet to understand why. We've been fortunate to not have had to see too many season where the previous team was so bad that we were picking in the Top 5... let alone 2 or 3... in a draft and we can all HOPE that it never happens again (unless of course we need a QB lol) but hope don't pay the bills or ensure it won't happen again.

What's funny is that a lot of the same people who are saying Eli sucks now... and the team HAD to go QB at #2 because Eli now sucks... and are also saying a QB HAD to be the pick at #2 in order to get a 'franchise guy' (as if picking that high automatically makes one a franchise-caliber QB)... don't seem to be putting two and two together because if Eli sucks as much as most of them seem to think he does... then you can be damn sure we'll probably be picking AT LEAST Top 5 again next year.

So what are you trippin for?
That pretty much sums it up, T-bone.  
Britt in VA : 5/3/2018 12:47 pm : link
.
Even the biggest Mara supporters...  
bw in dc : 5/3/2018 12:53 pm : link
in a rare, quiet moment of honesty and reflection have to at least admit the GM search was a complete joke. That there wasn't some extensive search. No, it was a total ruse.

Instead, what does Mara do? He dials Ernie, the man who drafted Eli, who quickly recommends Gettleman, who was with Ernie when Eli was drafted, who then hires Shurmur, who very quickly comes out to say he thinks Eli has plenty of gas in the tank, and suddenly Eli is, again, the future.

So much for the interest, as Mara highly suggested, that they were all in on a massive evaluation of the current crop of college QBs...

To not find that series of actions remotely questionable is strange to me.

Which brings me to why I was disappointed in taking a RB. It was just a short sighted move in the best interest of Eli, and not the long term interest of the team.

I have been - and have said so - that I was okay with Eli being the QB as the stop gap as long as we took advantage of this rare - well, hopefully rare at #2 - to draft a QB. A QB from a very deep, talented QB pool.

But since that was never going to be the case, because Jints Central decided to do this hard pivot back to Eli, I think we may have missed a tremendous opportunity to find his best replacement...

Jints Central  
dep026 : 5/3/2018 1:03 pm : link
jut comical at this point.
beedub  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 1:14 pm : link
Quote:
Even Mara's biggest supporters... in a rare, quiet moment of honesty and reflection have to at least admit the GM search was a complete joke. That there wasn't some extensive search. No, it was a total ruse.


I straddle the fence on that because I can definitely see where you're coming from... but at the same time they DID interview a few guys (one or two to be exact) that weren't part of or had ties to the Giants already (Louis Riddick immediately comes to mind). But I can't help but agree with you in that I didn't think the team did as extensive a search as they probably could've (or should've?). I actually was someone who was very excited at the beginning of the off-season because I saw this as a chance... for the first time in my lifetime... for the team to go in a COMPLETELY new direction with having to change the Coach AND GM. Alas... I was a little disappointed as well that they settled on a guy with strong Giants ties.

But that said... I mean... the team has 4 Super Bowl trophies in the case... which is more than what, 60- 75% of the teams in the league? So maybe there's nothing wrong with continuing to do things the 'Giants Way'?[/quote]

Quote:
So much for the interest, as Mara highly suggested, that they were all in on a massive evaluation of the current crop of college QBs...


I don't see how Mara saying that they had a strong interest in evaluating all the QBs coming out in this draft had to mean that they were going to take one of those guys? Maybe it's BECAUSE they took such a strong interest... and scouted them extensively... that they felt none of them was worth passing up a player of Barkley's caliber?

AND the fact that ONE team (the Jets) actually traded up into the Top 5 picks for one... instead of waiting for over half of the top 5 to drop to them (or at least closer to them where they could more comfortably trade up for one (see Allen and Rosen)... would seem to suggest that maybe more teams around the league weren't as mesmerized by the QBs coming out as some fans. All I kept hearing from those that wanted to draft a QB at #2 or else was 'See! IF none of the QBs are any good, why is everyone trying to trade into the top 5 for one?!'. Then after the draft Gettlemen comes out and says he barely got any serious offers and so far the only team we've heard that MAYBE had a real interest in trading up for one was the Pats.

Quote:
Which brings me to why I was disappointed in taking a RB. It was just a short sighted move in the best interest of Eli, and not the long term interest of the team.


I said it yesterday and I'll say it again today... the draft is about accumulating the best available talent on your roster. Judging by where the QBs wound up getting picked... it appears that this group of QBs wasn't anywhere NEAR as highly though of as most fans thought they were. Thus... I feel it can be assumed that Barkley was so far as away the better player than anyone else in the draft... particularly the QBs... that it would've been foolish to pass on him for a guy who may not be as good as he is relatively speaking. It now appears that Mayfield (and maybe Darnold) were the only two that were close and both came with their fair share of questions marks... meanwhile a player who checked (and in some cases DOUBLE checked) every single box for RB that he could possibly check and was universally thought of as the best player in the draft fell into our laps.

I've covered your next sentence earlier and all I'll say is that I think some are putting waaaaay too much... energy... into the thinking that the Giants made the wrong move. Had the Giants picked a QB (especially if that QB was Rosen for me)... I'd have been a little disappointed but would've gotten over it and just rooted for the guy we did select and hope for the best. But some of you are acting like Thanos and if they had the ability would use the Infinity Gauntlet to go back in time and change the pick if they could... damn whatever consequences happen!

We picked Barkley and not a QB. Get over it and root for the kid why don't ya?
As a Giants fan..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 1:18 pm : link
I could give two shits about the GM search. what I want is a competent hire.

They hired a guy who has had success wherever he's been, as a scout, as a director of player evaluation and as a GM. I never really care how exhaustive of a process it is.

Heck, the Bills didn't do a massive GM search, they hired Gettleman's assistant GM and made the playoffs for the first time since quite a few people on BBI had been born.

Gettleman has been on teams who have gone to 9 SB's. He got the Panthers out of the cap hell Marty Hurney put them in (and is putting them back in), got to a SB with them, and was fired for standing up to ownership, which puts a damper on the ridiculous idea he's a puppet for Mara.

I half believe people keep talking about the hiring process because they can't find a whole lot to dislike about Gettleman but have to bitch about something.

Wouldn't fit the fucking moronic Jints Central depiction otherwise.
T-bone- the logical question wasn't if Eli sucked or not. He doesn't.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 1:19 pm : link
With that, and the rest of our roster, you know it is clearly unlikely to be picking in the top 5 again, no less #2 next season.

And yes, a franchise QB could be found almost anywhere if you use enough history and are lucky enough. But logic again will tell you that it is best to at least give yourself the best chance/options to find one. And its tough to beat the #2 pick if that is the case. It is also expensive to purchase that option if we have to in the near future.

But maybe we will be lucky...
RE: As a Giants fan..  
Thegratefulhead : 5/3/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13952775 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I could give two shits about the GM search. what I want is a competent hire.

They hired a guy who has had success wherever he's been, as a scout, as a director of player evaluation and as a GM. I never really care how exhaustive of a process it is.

Heck, the Bills didn't do a massive GM search, they hired Gettleman's assistant GM and made the playoffs for the first time since quite a few people on BBI had been born.

Gettleman has been on teams who have gone to 9 SB's. He got the Panthers out of the cap hell Marty Hurney put them in (and is putting them back in), got to a SB with them, and was fired for standing up to ownership, which puts a damper on the ridiculous idea he's a puppet for Mara.

I half believe people keep talking about the hiring process because they can't find a whole lot to dislike about Gettleman but have to bitch about something.

Wouldn't fit the fucking moronic Jints Central depiction otherwise.
Strong post, completely agree.
RE: RE: It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
UberAlias : 5/3/2018 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13952605 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13952551 UberAlias said:


Quote:


was the correct way to go. Many teams in this situation would gone that route. We have an aging QB returning from a 3 win season who has not performed close to a probowl level in a few years and the offense has struggled. Even if we accept that he still has it despite the performance due to a lack of talent around him, we have to acknowledge that no one, not DG not PS, no one, can say with certainty that a drop-off isn't going to hit this year. Or next. What we can say with certainty is that it will happen, and it is not very long away. Aging is an undeniable fact of life.

The team had their pick of QBs, who they have acknowledged they liked, and are in excellent position to develop the QB of their choosing without having to rush him into action. The will never be in similar position of having their choice of QBs in the foreseeable future. What is there right now in terms of successors remains a question, as acknowledged by the team.

Look, we can disagree on things. But this position here is not outlandish by any stretch. It is not heresy to question decision given the performance these past two seasons.

We are all just going to have to see how this plays out. Anyone thinking they know the answer doesn't. None of us can see the future.

IMO, while it's not unreasonable to have the opinion that the QB was the correct way to go, it *is* unreasonable, a week later, not to stfu, move on, and get behind the pick, player, and team. More than unreasonable, it's just plain unhealthy.
Perhaps. But while we're on the topic of unhealthy --you seem awfully heated about this...
RE: RE: RE: It is not unreasonable to have the opinion that QB  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13952804 UberAlias said:
Quote:


Perhaps. But while we're on the topic of unhealthy --you seem awfully heated about this...
Really? Sorry to make it appear so. I honestly haven't lost sleep. At least about this.
T-Bone  
UberAlias : 5/3/2018 1:37 pm : link
I can't speak for others, but for my part... perhaps I'm just more optimistic than you. I'm not expecting another top 5 pick anytime soon.
RE: T-bone- the logical question wasn't if Eli sucked or not. He doesn't.  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13952777 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
With that, and the rest of our roster, you know it is clearly unlikely to be picking in the top 5 again, no less #2 next season.


How many of us expected to be picking #2 after the 2016 season when we made the playoffs? And that was WITH Eli playing all but one game. A HUGE part (at least for me) of what made last season so disappointing was how it seemed to come out of nowhere that we'd be as bad as we were. Yeah the offense wasn't a juggernaut the year before... and losing a lot of players to injury (including 90% of the WR corp) played a big part... but still, I'm still in a little bit of shock at how a team could go from 11-5 to 3-13 with basically the same cast (and with what was believed to be improvements in many places where the team was lacking such as #2 WR, TE and S. So yeah... the likelyhood of the team not picking in the top 5 is probably pretty unlikely... but I'm not falling for THAT banana in the tailpipe ever again. If I wasn't before, I am NOW a true believer that every season is COMPLETELY different from one to the next in today's NFL. Not sure I believed that as much before this past season.

Quote:
And yes, a franchise QB could be found almost anywhere if you use enough history and are lucky enough. But logic again will tell you that it is best to at least give yourself the best chance/options to find one. And its tough to beat the #2 pick if that is the case. It is also expensive to purchase that option if we have to in the near future.

But maybe we will be lucky...


But again... it appears the team (and a majority of the league... see my earlier post where I talk about this) didn't think there was a QB who had a chance to become a good enough player at the QB position to pass up a player of Barkley's caliber. If Barkley was Elliot or Gurley.... maybe they would've selected a QB over them. But Barkley has been viewed as better than even THEM by almost EVERYONE. To me that says a lot. The QB would've had to be on the level of a Carson Wentz AT LEAST (nevermind the Peyton or Luck level) in order for them to bypass Barkley as a prospect. Just my opinion.
RE: T-Bone  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13952811 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I can't speak for others, but for my part... perhaps I'm just more optimistic than you. I'm not expecting another top 5 pick anytime soon.


Yeah well... I wasn't expecting one after an 11-5 season... where the team made what was believed to be significant upgrades to areas of weakness like TE (and TE2 for that matter), Safety and even RB... were you?
RE: RE: T-Bone  
UberAlias : 5/3/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13952815 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13952811 UberAlias said:


Quote:


I can't speak for others, but for my part... perhaps I'm just more optimistic than you. I'm not expecting another top 5 pick anytime soon.



Yeah well... I wasn't expecting one after an 11-5 season... where the team made what was believed to be significant upgrades to areas of weakness like TE (and TE2 for that matter), Safety and even RB... were you?
I wasn't either, but for starters, it has been a while since NYG was in that position, but more importantly, if you were running the show, what's the expectation you're operating off of? The assumption is that you are expecting to improve and should plan accordingly. If you are assuming the alternative, well I'm not sure what to tell you, other then that just might be a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's not likely to matter much what you do.
I hear you T. My quick response is the Giants weren't all that good  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 1:51 pm : link
an 11-5 team. They had fatal flaws on the oline and overrated people on the defense. They were bad last year for many reasons AND Eli played 15 games to boot...think about that when you assess value. With that, I tell you getting to the #2 pick ain't easy, and it won't be this year with what i think are true improvements on the Offense, and a little on defense.

Also, I am not debating how good Barkley will be... I assume he will be superb which will only improve our record, and lower our chances to get to #2. Glad he is on the squad, but I would have gone QB.

I don't know if Darnold, Rosen or one of the others will be really good. But if they are, i at least hope Eli rebounds or Webb/Lauletta are good because we could be in deep shit...
RE: beedub  
bw in dc : 5/3/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13952764 T-Bone said:
Quote:


I actually was someone who was very excited at the beginning of the off-season because I saw this as a chance... for the first time in my lifetime... for the team to go in a COMPLETELY new direction with having to change the Coach AND GM. Alas... I was a little disappointed as well that they settled on a guy with strong Giants ties.


That's where I was. Let's get out of this "Giants Way" box, break that mold, and move in a fresher direction. Let's try to break this long era of - several years of mediocrity, a year that pops, a pull back, maybe another good year, another ordinary period, repeat.

I got the impression early, once the house cleaning was executed, that's exactly where Mara was going, too. But the lure of comfort is just habit for him. It takes a real disciple to change that. I see that in the business world all the time.

I like Barkley. I follow the high school game pretty closely and was excited when Penn State got him (being a lifelong PSU fan). He's a real good player. And my guess is he should have a lost "bust factor". Most of his game should convey nicely to the pros.

But I am a full subscriber to the position that the RB position has been commoditized and these guys grow on the RB trees found in a RB orchard near you. So there is no need to load up big, long-term, guaranteed cap money on them. Use the cap dollars for oline, dline, QB, and corners.

I know some say that the landscape is changing, and that the high profile RB is back. But the multi-back system continues to dominate more. So we'll see how it plays out with these feature backs like Gurley, Zeke, Barkley.

This was THE absolute best year in a long time to hedge and take RB later in the draft. This RB draft class was loaded.



RE: RE: RE: T-Bone  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13952823 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13952815 T-Bone said:


Quote:


In comment 13952811 UberAlias said:


Quote:


I can't speak for others, but for my part... perhaps I'm just more optimistic than you. I'm not expecting another top 5 pick anytime soon.



Yeah well... I wasn't expecting one after an 11-5 season... where the team made what was believed to be significant upgrades to areas of weakness like TE (and TE2 for that matter), Safety and even RB... were you?

I wasn't either, but for starters, it has been a while since NYG was in that position, but more importantly, if you were running the show, what's the expectation you're operating off of? The assumption is that you are expecting to improve and should plan accordingly. If you are assuming the alternative, well I'm not sure what to tell you, other then that just might be a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's not likely to matter much what you do.


Yes it has... and hopefully it will continue to take a few decades between top 5 picks (with 4 Super Bowl wins mixed in lol). But hope and expectations mean nothing in the grand scheme of things buddy. I learned a valuable lesson after last season and that's to not 'expect' anything based on what happened the year before or the off-season. I've never had a more depressing season than last season (and the Giants season was only part of it) and I hope to never experience it again.
RE: I hear you T. My quick response is the Giants weren't all that good  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13952829 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
an 11-5 team. They had fatal flaws on the oline and overrated people on the defense. They were bad last year for many reasons AND Eli played 15 games to boot...think about that when you assess value. With that, I tell you getting to the #2 pick ain't easy, and it won't be this year with what i think are true improvements on the Offense, and a little on defense.

Also, I am not debating how good Barkley will be... I assume he will be superb which will only improve our record, and lower our chances to get to #2. Glad he is on the squad, but I would have gone QB.

I don't know if Darnold, Rosen or one of the others will be really good. But if they are, i at least hope Eli rebounds or Webb/Lauletta are good because we could be in deep shit...


Yeah... it's easy to say NOW they weren't all that good of an 11-5 team... but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't thinking of AT LEAST a playoff bound... if not Super Bowl... season after that season. I agree with you about the fatal flaws on the O-line (and Reese not at least having a backup plan there is why I had absolutely not problem with him being fired) but the defense was #2 in the league the year before and added guys returning from injuries (like FS D. Thompson) or were hopeful of playing better than the year before (like JPP and his hand) and it was the D that was most disappointing. Here's to hoping that we won't NEED to get to the #2 pick in next year's draft because Eli is lighting it up and either Webb or Lauletta (I need to learn how to spell his name!)... or BOTH... have shown some good stuff in mop up duty and pre-season.

Again, I don't have a big issue with those that say they would've gone QB because I could see the logic behind it. What I do have a big issue with is the notion that anyone that didn't think taking a QB at #2 was/is an idiot.
RE: I hear you T. My quick response is the Giants weren't all that good  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13952829 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
an 11-5 team. They had fatal flaws on the oline and overrated people on the defense. They were bad last year for many reasons AND Eli played 15 games to boot...think about that when you assess value. With that, I tell you getting to the #2 pick ain't easy, and it won't be this year with what i think are true improvements on the Offense, and a little on defense.

Also, I am not debating how good Barkley will be... I assume he will be superb which will only improve our record, and lower our chances to get to #2. Glad he is on the squad, but I would have gone QB.

I don't know if Darnold, Rosen or one of the others will be really good. But if they are, i at least hope Eli rebounds or Webb/Lauletta are good because we could be in deep shit...
They are all on different teams. We will be in shit or not depending on Eli/Webb/Lauletta/next draftee/next FAQB/next QB by trade's performance *independently* of whether Darnold/Rosen et al are really good or not.
RE: RE: beedub  
T-Bone : 5/3/2018 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13952830 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13952764 T-Bone said:


Quote:




I actually was someone who was very excited at the beginning of the off-season because I saw this as a chance... for the first time in my lifetime... for the team to go in a COMPLETELY new direction with having to change the Coach AND GM. Alas... I was a little disappointed as well that they settled on a guy with strong Giants ties.




That's where I was. Let's get out of this "Giants Way" box, break that mold, and move in a fresher direction. Let's try to break this long era of - several years of mediocrity, a year that pops, a pull back, maybe another good year, another ordinary period, repeat.

I got the impression early, once the house cleaning was executed, that's exactly where Mara was going, too. But the lure of comfort is just habit for him. It takes a real disciple to change that. I see that in the business world all the time.

I like Barkley. I follow the high school game pretty closely and was excited when Penn State got him (being a lifelong PSU fan). He's a real good player. And my guess is he should have a lost "bust factor". Most of his game should convey nicely to the pros.

But I am a full subscriber to the position that the RB position has been commoditized and these guys grow on the RB trees found in a RB orchard near you. So there is no need to load up big, long-term, guaranteed cap money on them. Use the cap dollars for oline, dline, QB, and corners.

I know some say that the landscape is changing, and that the high profile RB is back. But the multi-back system continues to dominate more. So we'll see how it plays out with these feature backs like Gurley, Zeke, Barkley.

This was THE absolute best year in a long time to hedge and take RB later in the draft. This RB draft class was loaded.




Again beedub... I'm probably A LOT closer to the way you were/are thinking than we both think. BUT... as I said to Googs... where I happen to disagree big time is the notion that them NOT picking a QB there was the absolute wrong move that the team will regret for the next 15 years. IF Darnold, Rosen, Allen or even Jackson become upper echelon QBs... and the Giants are looking for a QB and are suffering through mediocrity for years to come... then you have every right to puff your chest out and say 'I told you so!'. But I don't believe that not taking a QB there... and taking the best, cleanest prospect (who happened to fill a position of need... unlike the LT pick in '81) to be available to the team since that '81 draft can automatically be classified as the 'wrong' move.

As has been said... I don't even look at Barkley as just a running back. He's so much more than that... and this is just as a rookie. What's he going to be in 2 or 3 years when he REALLY starts to understand the pro game? To think that he probably hasn't even hit close to his ceiling yet is what excites me the most about this kid... and he seems to really, REALLY want to get to that level.
RE: RE: beedub  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13952830 bw in dc said:
Quote:
....

This was THE absolute best year in a long time to hedge and take RB later in the draft. This RB draft class was loaded.


The most likely scenario would have been that we had the same draft that we got, except swapping Darnold for Barkley. In fact, once you got to round 3, I think you would have had a hard time saying that we would would get was appreciably better than what we have. And that ain't much. It really is the philosophical difference of whether or not a ground game is very important at all.
I didn't infer they were dependent.  
Jimmy Googs : 5/3/2018 2:25 pm : link
Only that I will be hoping our guys are good too otherwise we may have left money on the table...
RE: RE: RE: beedub  
bw in dc : 5/3/2018 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13952878 Bill L said:
Quote:
The most likely scenario would have been that we had the same draft that we got, except swapping Darnold for Barkley. In fact, once you got to round 3, I think you would have had a hard time saying that we would would get was appreciably better than what we have. And that ain't much. It really is the philosophical difference of whether or not a ground game is very important at all.


I was arguing with someone last Saturday - it kills me that I can't remember who - about this.

I said QB/Nick Chubb/Geno Christian was the better package than the actual combination of Barkley/Hernandez/Carter. Then we changed out Carter for Lauelleta.

Still get a terrific RB (Chubb) and outstanding OL (Christian)...and the QB > Barkley...

I think the ground game is very important, just on the cheap.
I will jump into the fire and say  
BestFeature : 5/3/2018 3:25 pm : link
It's not surprising that there are conspiracy theorists in regards to Eli and Mara. He gave them plenty of ammo when he fired the HC for benching Eli and the replacement coach put Eli back to start when the team was out of playoff contention and it would have been under the best interest of the franchise to play Webb. He sacrificed the franchise's best interest to appease the lowest common denominator of the fan base.
They couldn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 4:39 pm : link
play Webb because McAdoo failed to prep him. That's not on spags - it is on Mac.

The choice wasn't Eli or Webb, it was Eli or Geno. That's why so many people were pissed, confused, in shock, etc.
RE: RE: RE: RE: beedub  
JOrthman : 5/3/2018 5:34 pm : link
In comment 13952962 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13952878 Bill L said:


Quote:


The most likely scenario would have been that we had the same draft that we got, except swapping Darnold for Barkley. In fact, once you got to round 3, I think you would have had a hard time saying that we would would get was appreciably better than what we have. And that ain't much. It really is the philosophical difference of whether or not a ground game is very important at all.



I was arguing with someone last Saturday - it kills me that I can't remember who - about this.

I said QB/Nick Chubb/Geno Christian was the better package than the actual combination of Barkley/Hernandez/Carter. Then we changed out Carter for Lauelleta.

Still get a terrific RB (Chubb) and outstanding OL (Christian)...and the QB > Barkley...

I think the ground game is very important, just on the cheap.


If that happened I doubt they would of even picked a RB. RB wasn't such a need that, they would of passed on other players to take one later like that. I think the only reason they went RB that high was because of who he was.
Right. At that point there would have been  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 6:00 pm : link
Incremental difference at th very best from Gallman. They would have just punted (literally and figuratively).
RE: Right. At that point there would have been  
bw in dc : 5/3/2018 6:08 pm : link
In comment 13953320 Bill L said:
Quote:
Incremental difference at the very best from Gallman.


Well there you have it - it's been declared.

All of the RBs AFTER Barkley were only incrementally better.

Does that mean you think Gallman is great, so we have another great back. Or Gallman is average, so we have another average back? Don't answer - just being a wise ass...I know your answer. ;)
I will answer  
Bill L : 5/3/2018 6:15 pm : link
It’s a bit of both.

That hated word “generational”is actually applicable. And 3rd down back in s 3rd down back.
This franchise is 51-61 since 2011  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 6:22 pm : link
If you want to be optimistic, fine. You're entitled to. Go be that without telling other people what to think.

There's been plenty of reason to question the things this team does.
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