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NGT: Elliott or Ramsey?

Strahan91 : 5/2/2018 6:00 pm
Iíve seen a few writers mention in regards to the Barkley pick that as good as Zeke is, the Cowboys would likely be a better team with Ramsey and would take him if they could do it over again.

Forgetting for a moment that Barkley is a better prospect than Elliott was, is the above true? I personally donít think so and was surprised to read that several times. When Elliott played the full 16 games in 2016, they won 13 games. They donít have a ton of talent on defense so they werenít winning 13 games in 2016 or 2017 with Ramsey. Adding a single corner doesnít add to your win total like controlling the clock, keeping your defense rested (making it more effective) and opening up opportunities for the quarterback. Without Elliott, Dak didnít just look pedestrian like he did with him in 2017, but he looked terrible. Other than a much better QB and possibly an absolutely dominant pass rusher (think Von Miller or a healthy JJ Watt), itís hard to see how any player could effect Dallas in the way that Elliott has.

Most point to the Cowboys 3-3 record without Elliott but they didnít hit double digits in points for 3 weeks. They beat the Giants and Raiders who by all accounts were terrible teams and had largely given up at that point. They did easily beat the Skins but Cousins was sacked 4 times in that game, turned the ball over 3 times and Dallas had a special teams TD. While the score looks lopsided today, a lot had to go right for them to win that game given that Dak threw for all of 100 yards. Morris did have a big game but Washington has the worst run D in football and he wasnít nearly as effective in other games during Elliottís absence.

What do you think bbi? Am I crazy? I could see the argument made in favor of Ramsey having a lengthier career or him being far cleaner off the field but as football players I just donít see where that conclusion comes from.
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Also  
AcesUp : 5/2/2018 9:03 pm : link
To put this in perspective. Ramsey is JUST hitting his prime, Zeke entered the league mid-prime. We've seen the best of Elliot, we're not there yet with Ramsey.
RE: RE: And Dallasí OL wonít be the same for long  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:06 pm : link
In comment 13951775 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951702 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


they canít afford to keep them all, so putting any old body back there isnít going to be a viable option.



Again, all the more reason paying an RB at the top of the market hurts your roster. Save huge money at QB, CB, or DE and you can splurge at OL. Pay top of the league money at RB and you have to scrimp elsewhere.

As to who you can put back there, again, Alf Morris averaged over 5 yards a carry last season as the starter.


It really doesnít. The fact that RBs make so little means paying a top one doesnít keep you from spending elsewhere. What donít you get about that?

Iím not suggesting to just go out and pay every RB but paying guys like LeVeon Bell help your team more than giving the same money to an above average guard, for example.

This notion that RBs arenít valuable because they are paid the least is exactly why capitalizing on rule can be smart. Get ahead of the curve, not behind it, and have fun paying top dollar for average players at other positions.
I don't get your math for starters  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 9:18 pm : link
You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?
The bottom line, Zeke Elliott is a heck of a player,  
barens : 5/2/2018 9:23 pm : link
and if it weren't for the suspension, who knows what would have happened with the Cowboys. As much as I hate them, they got a great one, and we'd be lucky if Barkley was just as good as Elliott.

It's been quite clear that when Zeke comes off the field, the Cowboys do not run the ball as effectively.
RE: I don't get your math for starters  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?


Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And Iím only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.
There wasn't much of a drop off  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 9:34 pm : link
From Zeke to Morris.. let that sink in.. cowboys won 13 games with their oline.. not Zeke.. with a healthy Murray they will just as many games.. Ramsey on the other hand makes people around him better because he is a shut down guy.. the loses for cowgirls came last year because their all pro LT was out..

In a vacuum... Knowing Zeke gets suspended  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 5/2/2018 9:35 pm : link
And all the drama it caused last year... Ramsey would be the pick.
RE: RE: RE: You can make the argument for either  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 9:37 pm : link
In comment 13951695 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951632 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951626 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


the ďeasilyĒ posts are terrible.



Thatís why the league pays cornerbacks more on average than running backs.



Amazing argument, really, I canít believe you thought of something so brilliant.


Perfect retort for something you canít dispute.
In a Vacuum, Ransey > Elliot, but...  
jcp56 : 5/2/2018 9:38 pm : link
Elliot fits perfectly with the Cowboys. Strong running game, play action for Dak, keep the defense off the field.

But a shut down corner lets you deploy an extra player (safety help) creatively. (perhaps a safety dropping into the box to stop a dominant runner like Elliot).
A good way to look at a real life example of the two  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 9:38 pm : link
is to look at the Champ Bailey, Clinton Portis trade back in 2005 or so. Champ had an historic career and contributed to Denver for over a decade. Portis was oft injured and never lived up to the billing pretty much from day one. He had a few decent years but he didn't alter the losing culture in Washington one bit.
Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 9:39 pm : link
Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..
Lies, damn lies and statistics  
djm : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
Darkwa averaged the same or more than zeke last year. Is he better?

Zeke is a stud. Hes one of the best players in football. No one cares how much money he makes until heís no longer a great player. Same will apply to Barkley.

Lies, damn lies and statistics  
djm : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
Darkwa averaged the same or more than zeke last year. Is he better?

Zeke is a stud. Hes one of the best players in football. No one cares how much money he makes until heís no longer a great player. Same will apply to Barkley.

RE: There wasn't much of a drop off  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
In comment 13951857 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
From Zeke to Morris.. let that sink in.. cowboys won 13 games with their oline.. not Zeke.. with a healthy Murray they will just as many games.. Ramsey on the other hand makes people around him better because he is a shut down guy.. the loses for cowgirls came last year because their all pro LT was out..


I donít know how people believe this. He had 2000 yards and 16 TDs in 2016 and still had 1200 yards and 9 TDs in 2017. Morris isnít a threat in he passing game and had a WHOPPING 1 TD in 2017.

Morris being just as effective as Elliot is the definition of bullshit.
And letís not even discuss Elliott  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:51 pm : link
spending all of 2017 focusing on a legal battle. Iím not defending that piece of shit but itís comical to compare Alfred Morris to him.
RE: Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13951870 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..


Darkwa is much better than Fournette. THat extra .5 YPC would have guaranteed them the Super Bowl.
RE: RE: Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 10:07 pm : link
In comment 13951906 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951870 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..



Darkwa is much better than Fournette. THat extra .5 YPC would have guaranteed them the Super Bowl.


unfortunately they (Darkwa and Fournette) played for different Oline.. also their game flow dictated different running condition.. Zeke and morris played behind Dallas Oline..

Zeke is better than morris but he isn't a huge game changer.. Demarco Murray did the same thing with that Oline.. Zeke also provides better pass catching ability and therefore is three down back.. but make no mistake at pure running there isn't a huge difference.. let Zeke run behind a bad Oline and then you can judge him.. Guys like Bell, David johnson and Gurley are much better than him..
RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And Iím only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.


A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.
Iíve had enough stupid for one day  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 10:44 pm : link
I draw the line at Darkwa being in the same discussion about production with the top RBs in the game. Itís comical.

As for 2nd contracts, tops RBs get second contracts. The only reason why Bell hasnít is because he wants WR money. Heís making over $14 million this year because they canít come close to replacing his production without him. Would love to see Darkwa and Perkins generate 85%, heck even 50% of his production which you conveniently cap at yardage and donít even discuss scoring (you ignore it with Elliott, Bell, and Johnson). But continue spewing your garbage.
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 11:12 pm : link
Again, is the perfect example.
RE: Dude  
Vanzetti : 5/3/2018 12:02 am : link
In comment 13951499 huygens20 said:
Quote:
Itís reallt not even close


Ramsey, whose a top 5 cb already, if not top 3, is probably 2x as valuable than Elliot When it comes to win contribution. When it comes time to pay Elliot and Ramsey, this will be reflected in their salaries too.

Positional value matters

Qb
Edge rusher/de
Cb
Ot
Wr

In that order ^


Ramsey over Elliott. And it's not close.
RE: Itís not just Ramsey for Elliott  
Mdgiantsfan : 5/3/2018 12:29 am : link
In comment 13951680 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Dallas couldíve went Ramsey then Derrick Henry or Kenyan Drake in the third. I think both backs wouldíve been just as productive as Zeke. Even more do bc neither has been suspended.

Dallas OL makes life easy for RBs. I think thereís a good chance they wouldnít miss a beat if Bo Scarborough had to get the lionís share of the carries for whatever reason.


Good grief!! Put the pipe down! If you donít like Zeke fine, but he is much better than Kenyon drake! Now way heís putting up Zeke-like production.
RE: RE: Itís not just Ramsey for Elliott  
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 2:25 am : link
In comment 13952083 Mdgiantsfan said:
Quote:
In comment 13951680 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Dallas couldíve went Ramsey then Derrick Henry or Kenyan Drake in the third. I think both backs wouldíve been just as productive as Zeke. Even more do bc neither has been suspended.

Dallas OL makes life easy for RBs. I think thereís a good chance they wouldnít miss a beat if Bo Scarborough had to get the lionís share of the carries for whatever reason.



Good grief!! Put the pipe down! If you donít like Zeke fine, but he is much better than Kenyon drake! Now way heís putting up Zeke-like production.


Look at Drakeís production the last 6 games or so last year when they finally featured him. Itís a legitimate debate Zeke v Drake getting 20+ touches behind Dallasís OL. Like someone said earlier, Demarco Murray was the NFL leading rusher in Dallas and they let him walk.

And like I said earlier, itís not just Ramsey v Zeke. It would be Ramsey and Drake vs Zeke and Maliek Collins.
Dallas made the miatake  
fanatic II : 5/3/2018 5:50 am : link
in the 2015 draft.

Dallas should have selected Tevin Coleman instead of Randy Gregory.

Then in 2016 Dallas selects Ramsey instead of Elliott.

Coleman and Ramsey would have been better than Gregory and Elloitt.

Behind the Dallas OL Coleman would be a top 5 RB, just like Murray and McFadden before him.
RE: RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
ajr2456 : 5/3/2018 6:00 am : link
In comment 13951969 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And Iím only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.



A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.


In fact only 5 QBs the last decade have sat a year, and four of them it probably had with that they werenít good:

Locker
Tebow
Manziel
Lynch
Mahoney (the only possible good one)
I donít care about history  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:48 am : link
If we drafted a QB thereís a very real possibility that he would sit all of 2018 and possibly part of or all of 2019. Iím not making that up, have you paid attention to anything this off season?
RE: RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 7:28 am : link
In comment 13951969 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And Iím only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.



A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.


This is pretty much the biggest reason for why a QB at 2 was never an option. Everything this team has said and done this offseason indicates that they feel Eli has 2+ good years left in him. Teams in todayís NFL donít draft quarterbacks in the first round to have them sit for 2 years.

And then if you cut Eli  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 7:32 am : link
please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.
RE: I donít care about history  
ajr2456 : 5/3/2018 8:07 am : link
In comment 13952133 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
If we drafted a QB thereís a very real possibility that he would sit all of 2018 and possibly part of or all of 2019. Iím not making that up, have you paid attention to anything this off season?


A QB at 2 would not have sat 2019.
Ohh ok  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:09 am : link
thanks Gettleman.
RE: And then if you cut Eli  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 8:34 am : link
In comment 13952152 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.


That is a good point, I think the cap hit for cutting Manning next year is close to, if not more than, what Barkley will earn next season.
RE: Ohh ok  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 8:41 am : link
In comment 13952183 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
thanks Gettleman.


This was a thread about Ramsey v. Elliot and general discussion of RB value. You gave turned this into a debate about the value of the Giants picking a QB at 2. Pretty much irrelevant.

As to the other backs mentioned in this thread, what you're missing is that the point isn't really that they'd be just as good as Elliot. I think he's a really good back (though not really an asset in the passing game). The point is that behind that OL, a lot of reasonably good backs could be very productive. While they may not quite put up Elliot level production, uthink they'd do enough for the cowboys to be successful. That's why I think the team is better overall by adding a guy like Ramsey.
Positional value..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 8:41 am : link
would've been a powerful tool in the mid 90's when the salary cap was onerous. George Young would've probably stayed the GM for awhile had we used it.

Today, positional analysis often devolves into pithy conclusions like run of the mill RB's will produce as well as star RB's. Heck, one poster yesterday discussed how Darkwa and Gallamn produced better rushing yardage than McCoy. The inference being that if you cut McCoy and replaced him with two mediocre backs, you wouldn't lose any output.

We all know that's bullshit, but it is the meat of why so many people are now saying that RB's are just slightly more valuable than kickers and punters. When you say that last sentence with a straight face and conviction, it might be time to re-evaluate the positional value argument.
RE: RE: And then if you cut Eli  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:46 am : link
In comment 13952220 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13952152 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.



That is a good point, I think the cap hit for cutting Manning next year is close to, if not more than, what Barkley will earn next season.


Hat is correct. His dead cap this year is $17 million and next year itís $6.2 million I believe. So if you drafted Darnold youíd be paying close to $30 million in 2018 in the 2 QBs, then in 2019 if Manning was cut you are still paying close to $12 million if you factor in Eliís dead money. And then if you choose to upgrade at RB (he cheapest position) you have to add in another $5 million give or take.

So at year 2 with Darnold and a FA RB youíve already spent almost 2/3 of Barkleyís entire rookie contract. And then you have to factor that in 2019 Darnold is basically getting his first playing time and may suck so itís possible we donít even see an upgrade in QB play.

Lon story short, your bold statements have a lot of layers you didnít bother to get into. Iím not saying Iím right, but I could be, and if I was, this scenario isnít the greatest if you are going to talk positional value and give lectures on how an NFL franchise should operate using average salaries per position as your only focus.
Giantfan  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:48 am : link
Iím not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliottís absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and donít talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.
And positional value was brought up  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:51 am : link
by someone else so blame them.
At least from my perspective  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 8:56 am : link
That's not the discussion. The question isn't whether Darkwa = Elliot. The answer to that is clearly no.

The question is whether the added value of Elliot vs. other guys that were available with a lesser investment justifies the high cost the Cowboys paid for him. As others have argued, plug Derrick Henry or Tevin Coleman in behind that line, and I just don't think it meaningfully alters the expected trajectory of the Cowboys season. Add Jalen Ramsey to the mix on top of that and I think you have a better team overall (and healthier one from a long term cap perspective).
But then that bogs..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 9:04 am : link
down the idea of roster construction.

When every team starts to use cut-rate RB's to be the feature back they do free money up elsewhere, but that doesn't mean the pool of elite backs have shrunk.

Here's a funny thing about the positional value argument, though. The teams in the last 5 years who have been over the cap or had to make significant moves to get under the cap weren't teams with expensive RB's. So it really isn't helping in cap management terms. The two teams over the cap this past offseason, the Eagles and Rams have a small portion of $$ tied to the RB. The Rams with Gurley being on his rookie contract, and the eagles are in the bottom half of the league in RB salary.

Teams with an excellent OL can win with mediocre backs. Teams with an average line can win with an elite RB. We won with Bradshaw and Jacobs, but looked like shit with Rashad Jennings and Perkins.
RE: Giantfan  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 9:10 am : link
In comment 13952232 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Iím not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliottís absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and donít talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.


Elliot started 10 games and scored 7 TDs.

Alf and Rod Smith split 6 starts and scored 6 times. That's actually a higher TD rate.

I'm not arguing Elliot is anything other than one of the best backs in the league. But, despite popular belief to the contrary, the Cowboys running game renained perfectly productive without him.
When it comes to Ramsey v Elliott  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:17 am : link
I think positional value plays a factor. If you factor in where each player plays, thatís also something that needs to be considered. But itís worth noting that the Jags oline is also very good and Elliott may even have better success with them considering they have better weapons than the Cowboys.

After that my comments are directed towards the Darkwa bullshit. Iím sick of watching our run game, itís pathetic. Iím glad we have what should be a game changing back and his cost vs drafting Darnold and having him sit + he dead cap hit for Eli makes that whole cost argument a wash.
RE: RE: Giantfan  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:20 am : link
In comment 13952273 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13952232 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


Iím not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliottís absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and donít talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.



Elliot started 10 games and scored 7 TDs.

Alf and Rod Smith split 6 starts and scored 6 times. That's actually a higher TD rate.

I'm not arguing Elliot is anything other than one of the best backs in the league. But, despite popular belief to the contrary, the Cowboys running game renained perfectly productive without him.


I am using the same stats and logic to state that Zeke isn't a top 5 RB..Even McFadden did really good the year before once Cowgirls started giving him the workload... there are quite a few RBs that are better than Zeke.. David Johnson, Fournette, Dalvin Cook, Bell, Gurley, Howard and Hunt are all better.. I may be in minority but thats my opinion.. Barkley will also be better than Zeke..
The OP lost me  
MetsAreBack : 5/3/2018 9:28 am : link
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.
I really donít agree with you  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:31 am : link
too much stock is being put into his 2017 performance which, by his own fault, he was dealing with a year of legal issues. I think itís fair to say that Football wasnít the only thing or even the most important thing he was focusing on.

Heís a bellcow who can score from anywhere and catch. He has the body to handle 300+ touches per year. I think heís better than Fournette, Howard and the jury is out on Cook and Hunt despite early success. The only RB in the NFL thatís definitviely better is Bell, possibly Gurley. Johnson would be too but I need to see him post injury.
As far as the value of the position and why it isn't getting paid..  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:31 am : link
I think it just has to do with the fact that NFL hasn't really had any great RB come out over a several year span when the best RBs coming out of college were pretty replaceable.. that has not been the case over the last 3 drafts.. last years draft was loaded with 5-6 legit RB.. Barkley is also a legit superstar RB.. 3 years from now when Gurley, Zeke and David Johnson are getting paid 12-15M per year.. the RB franchise tag number will be super high as well..

I don't have anything against the position as much as I think Zeke is over ratted.. when scrub level players can replicate your performance then you aren't a top 5 player..
RE: The OP lost me  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 13952308 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.


Also that 6-4 includes a win against the eagles when they weren't trying to win and had their playoff position setup.. yet Dallas Offense wasn't good.. so really it was 5-4 with Zeke.. but don't let facts and stats get in your way of judging Zeke as a top 5 RB..
RE: The OP lost me  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 9:34 am : link
In comment 13952308 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.


Not to mention they were 13-2 with Zeke on the field in 2016, and 0-1 without him. So over the last 2 seasons they are 19-6 with Elliot and below .500 when he is playing.
Itís funny that his rookie season is being ignore  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:46 am : link
I loathe the man but Iím taking that out of my assessment of he player. His 2017 was still very good despite the time missed + off he field issues. If you canít see it or wonít factor that in, itís pointless debating.
I think that this year's draft is a pretty good indication that  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 9:46 am : link
teams are changing the way they value running backs. There were 3 taken in the first round (Barkley, Penny, Michel) and a total of 6 in the top 43 picks (Chubb, Jones, Johnson). Add in Derius Guice and thats 7 RBs in the first 2 rounds.

Compare that to the previous few year: in 2017 there were only 4 taken in the first two rounds, 2 in 2016, 4 in 2015, 2 in 2014.

RE: I think that this year's draft is a pretty good indication that  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 11:05 am : link
In comment 13952336 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
teams are changing the way they value running backs. There were 3 taken in the first round (Barkley, Penny, Michel) and a total of 6 in the top 43 picks (Chubb, Jones, Johnson). Add in Derius Guice and thats 7 RBs in the first 2 rounds.

Compare that to the previous few year: in 2017 there were only 4 taken in the first two rounds, 2 in 2016, 4 in 2015, 2 in 2014.


It was a good year for RBs. Drafts are like harvests. Sometimes you have a bumper crop at a certain pointion. Other years there's maybe one worth a damn.
I am not going out on a limb...  
hitchchops2 : 5/3/2018 7:32 pm : link
...in saying that every NFL team would take Ramsey over Elliott. For a variety of reasons, including longevity and positional value, this is pretty clear. Beyond that however, is the fact that Ramsey is just a far superior football player, and the best player in that draft by a significant margin. Elliott had a great season behind a great line, but his impact will continue to decrease, and he will more than likely be on his second team while Ramsey is still an All Pro.
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