Matt Ryan has agreed to a 5 year extension with @AtlantaFalcons that makes him first $30 mill per year QB w $100 mill guaranteed, per league and team sources.
Until they define CAP space by position, which is probably coming in a future CBA, allocating a huge percentage of the CAP to a quarterback, particularly one who hasn't done anything, virtually sows the seeds for a team's demise. Why? Because Football is truly a team game. And it is a game in which one or a couple of "alpha" players, even the quarterback, cannot so dominate a game as to make the supporting cast virtually irrelevant. So you really can't compare the sport to Baseball, which is more like a set of individual transactions packaged together as a collective, or Basketball, where a couple of players can determine outcomes on a regular basis.
In Football, the team needs to be and play "as one". When an above average player who has never won a super bowl gets paid absurd amounts of money taken from the pockets of his teammates, the motivational implications are untenable. Players "not paid" will simply not give maximum energy to win.
Tom Brady truly understands this which is why he allows himself to be grossly underpaid when he is in fact the one quarterback in the NFL who should be paid triple the league average. But Brady knows the Patriots cannot win if he takes too large of a percentage of the CAP. It is not because of the economics of skillfully working the nuanced and esoteric rules of the CAP. It is because he knows how destructive it is psychologically in a team sport to be paid grossly higher than any of his teammates. It ain't rocket science fellas...
Look for the Falcons, Lions and Vikings to grossly underachieve this year.... there will be a lot of reasons given, but the main reason is that three tone deaf owners, who run franchises that have never won a super bowl, really don't have a clue about team psychology in the sport of football.
The cap does matter
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.
But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.
What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.
When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.
Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.
The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.
It's true, in this era, teams have become adept at manipulating the cap and generally you don't see many of the same issues as the late 90's, with players being cut (and the key is - that the team wanted to keep) but the cap is finite and there are cuts or non-signings that happen because of limited cap space.
However, when you combine poor drafting, injuries, and under-performing players who are on high $$$ contracts then you have a real cap problem b/c your main way to react to any single one of of those three is with FA signings. When they all happen, it's really hard to be competitive.
Which is what makes signings like Ryan's not without risk, when you have one player taking up that much of the cap, it means you have to hit your draft picks and you need your other players (including Ryan) on high $$ contracts to perform well.
Just my opinion, I say the cap is relevant, but with good management it shouldn't become an issue. But it does sometimes.
The cap exists to support parity and keep teams from using a checkbook to dominate.
It is far less restrictive than it once was and now functions more as a barrier to loading up on Superstars than in the past when it was a barrier to keeping talent or signing talent.
I'm trying to temper those who keep bringing the cap up in any thread about player signings. It is a consideration taken into account, but it is hardly the albatross that it is made out to be.
Back to OP...I am a Matt Ryan fan and think he should be a high paid guy in that top group. While he may not have won the big one, he is a winner if you look at the record.
And while I think he contributed to the SB collapse, I think lesser so to blame him versus Philly last year as that was god-awful playcalling on the goal line.
This is one of the reasons why I believe you need to move away from the traditional franchise QB model of building a team. You get a strong system in place, a great running game and defense, and you get a lesser, but smart, QB to manage it all.
This is one of the reasons why I believe you need to move away from the traditional franchise QB model of building a team. You get a strong system in place, a great running game and defense, and you get a lesser, but smart, QB to manage it all.
Put Barkley aside, do you think DG/PS subscribe to your thinking above in putting together a franchise, or did these QBs not wow them in the draft?
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.
RE: RE: RE: The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it Â
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.
I agree, although my gut tells me Eli isn't going to be the greatest mentor here. He may have a bit of chip on his shoulder, there have been comments made by him before that lead you to believe its more on the backups to step up, and I think he may very well like all his toys on the field at once finally!
he just has to conduct himself as he always does, professionally. Just be an example of how to go about business, how to practice, how to train, how to work.
But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.
or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?
RE: He doesn't have to be their mentor per se.... Â
he just has to conduct himself as he always does, professionally. Just be an example of how to go about business, how to practice, how to train, how to work.
But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.
I always recall David Carr talking about Eli. He supported the first point above. But not the second. Eli may be a great instructor in the academies, but Carr eluded to point when it comes to his starting gig that Eli created more of a wall between himself and the backups. Whether that his competitive spirit, pride, whatever...he wasn't going to be helpful.
or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?
How can you ask this question when three of the last four super bowl winning quarterbacks have been Foles, Brady and Wilson??? It could not be more clear what Britt is saying and what the Giants appear to be doing. And it makes sense.
I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:
Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?
Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.
I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"
It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.
I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:
Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?
Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.
I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"
It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.
The point isn't that he's not the starter, the point is that the system made him look better than he was. It was the system, not Foles. Shurmer did sommething similar with Keenum.
As far as mid round prospects go, it's happening more and more lately actually.
Garapolo, Wilson, Cousins.... Teams are finding QB talent in the middle rounds.
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
until Jints Central brings in Jay Cutler to be the vet back up
RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided.. Â
and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
RE: RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided.. Â
and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
I didn't say that. What I said exactly:
Quote:
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.
I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
Being overrated and overpaid are two different entities.
I'd be happy with Matt Ryan as my QB. I would not be happy paying any QB 30 million a year. It's too much, it's out of control.
The cap does matter
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.
But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.
What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.
When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.
Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.
The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.
Of course a team can keep a guy they truly want, but there’s a trade off. If a team has to let 2 or 3 guys walk to pursue that one guy, it’s disingenuous to say the cap isn’t really a factor because they got their guy.
Your Giants example is hollow bc they didn’t have quality players on second contracts due to an extended run of shitty drafts. So of course the cap didn’t matter for the Giants at that point — Eli, DRC, and a couple of shitty LBs were the only guys making money that off-season.
The cap is a zero sum game. If you pay one or a handful of guys you have to save elsewhere.
I’ll be curious to see who is the first team to say Â
“Fuck it I’ve had enough, I’m not lying this guy” when it comes to QBs. The Skins kinda did it but they initially wanted Cousins long term, a deal didn’t get done, then there were sour grapes and tried trading him, etc. also, I think everyone knew he wasn’t a franchise altering QB so I don’t really count them.
That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.
The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.
On the Giants right now was acquired because of cap issues/decisions made by other teams. The Giants got Jenkins because the Rams chose to keep Trumaine Johnson instead. They got Snacks because the Jets chose to keep Richardson. They got Vernon because Miami couldn’t give him the same type of deal, and Suh’s money surely impacted that process. They were able to trade for Ogletree because the Rams needed salary cap relief. They got Solder because the Pats didn’t want to offer him the same deal.
As I’ve opined from time to time, the market is the Â
That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.
The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.
No one is talking about accidentally going over the cap, or even getting caught in cap hell. That's an angle you keep injecting into other people's arguments (including mine) that no one else is bringing up.
RE: RE: RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided.. Â
and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
I didn't say that. What I said exactly:
Quote:
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.
I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).
Another poster, in agreement with your point, mentioned Brady and Wilson - which is why I mentioned Brady.
I don't view Kirk Cousins as the ideal QB, we just have different perspectives.
I'll take my shot at a Peyton Manning, Carson Wentz, Ryan, Eli, Rivers, even a Cam Newton or Andrew Luck or Jared Goff, etc. before putting my franchise future in the hands of Kirk Cousins.
And clearly the Redskins didn't expect Cousins to become what he did, why trade up so much for RG3 if that were the case?
Clearly the Eagles didn't expect Foles to lead them to a SB, he was kind of an afterthought, signed to be a backup.
The only QB I feel like meets the "draft and develop" model in the past 15 years was Tony Romo.
And you're not looking for a franchise QB, but if there is any position on the field that makes sense to keep some stability it's QB IMO.
Let's say your model works and you find a QB, why would you want to repeat that every 4/5 years? Odds are you'll miss next time (and the model won't work to begin with).
Lastly, I hope one of Webb or Lauletta winds up the next Eli or even better the next Aaron Rodgers, but I doubt anyone really expects that and I'd wager the Giants wind up using a high draft pick on a QB to replace Eli.
They had a 25 pt lead in the 3rd qtr of the super bowl Â
Go look it up, like 999 of 1000 times they win that game. The Pats coming back was a fluke (though I give the Pats and Brady COMPLETE credit for making it happen), those things just don't happen and we may never see it again.
Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
To be the highest paid quarterback, you need to produce when it counts.
Any objective way of looking at it, Eli is better in this regard than Ryan: 1) Manning is 8-4 vs Ryan's 4-6 in the post season; 2) in the only post season game in which they faced each other, during the 2011 playoffs, the Giants won by a score of 24-2 and Eli utterly dominated Ryan in yards (270-183), TDs (3-0) and QBR (129-71); and 3) on the most important play in both of their careers, Eli avoided the sack and made the pass to Tyree leading to the greatest upset win in Super Bowl XLII and Ryan took the sack in Super Bowl LI which led to the greatest comeback loss in NFL history.
Ryan may be a good regular season quarterback, but when it matters, Eli has been and continues to be by far the superior player.
Ryan is so outrageously overpaid it is comical. And more than anyone else, his very own teammates know this. Which is why the Falcons will grossly underachieve this year.
RE: They had a 25 pt lead in the 3rd qtr of the super bowl Â
Go look it up, like 999 of 1000 times they win that game. The Pats coming back was a fluke (though I give the Pats and Brady COMPLETE credit for making it happen), those things just don't happen and we may never see it again.
Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).
The Falcons lost that game BECAUSE Ryan took that sack. Otherwise they win that game. He may have had a good game until that point, but his lack of judgement at such a vital moment is simply inexcusable. And rewarding that kind of ineptitude to the tune of the highest contract in NFL history is an atrocious lack of judgement by Arthur Blank.
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...
It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.
Not sure either. I just assumed he had that permission given his experience
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...
It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.
Agree Ryan deserves some blame, but he's probably 4th or 5th on the list.
And I don't think the sack was the coup de grace.
that would have been a 52 yard FG after the sack if they didn't pick up a yard on 3rd down (after ideally running the ball), practically automatic for Bryant.
The holding penalty on 3rd down was the real killer.
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Exactly. Run the ball three times, kick the FG, and Matt Ryan and 99.99% chance the Falcons hoist the Lombardi trophy. Simple as that.
You can debate the money in general to QBs, but not that Matt Ryan is deserving of it.
He was a rookie of the year, an MVP, has been a Pro Bowler 4 times, has taken his team to playoffs 6 of his 10 years when the team only made the playoffs 5 of the previous 43 years.
You want to go look at stupid QB contracts, go look at Cousins or Jimmy G's...not Ryan's.
In Football, the team needs to be and play "as one". When an above average player who has never won a super bowl gets paid absurd amounts of money taken from the pockets of his teammates, the motivational implications are untenable. Players "not paid" will simply not give maximum energy to win.
Tom Brady truly understands this which is why he allows himself to be grossly underpaid when he is in fact the one quarterback in the NFL who should be paid triple the league average. But Brady knows the Patriots cannot win if he takes too large of a percentage of the CAP. It is not because of the economics of skillfully working the nuanced and esoteric rules of the CAP. It is because he knows how destructive it is psychologically in a team sport to be paid grossly higher than any of his teammates. It ain't rocket science fellas...
Look for the Falcons, Lions and Vikings to grossly underachieve this year.... there will be a lot of reasons given, but the main reason is that three tone deaf owners, who run franchises that have never won a super bowl, really don't have a clue about team psychology in the sport of football.
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.
But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.
What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.
When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.
Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.
The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.
It's true, in this era, teams have become adept at manipulating the cap and generally you don't see many of the same issues as the late 90's, with players being cut (and the key is - that the team wanted to keep) but the cap is finite and there are cuts or non-signings that happen because of limited cap space.
However, when you combine poor drafting, injuries, and under-performing players who are on high $$$ contracts then you have a real cap problem b/c your main way to react to any single one of of those three is with FA signings. When they all happen, it's really hard to be competitive.
Which is what makes signings like Ryan's not without risk, when you have one player taking up that much of the cap, it means you have to hit your draft picks and you need your other players (including Ryan) on high $$ contracts to perform well.
Just my opinion, I say the cap is relevant, but with good management it shouldn't become an issue. But it does sometimes.
The cap exists to support parity and keep teams from using a checkbook to dominate.
It is far less restrictive than it once was and now functions more as a barrier to loading up on Superstars than in the past when it was a barrier to keeping talent or signing talent.
I'm trying to temper those who keep bringing the cap up in any thread about player signings. It is a consideration taken into account, but it is hardly the albatross that it is made out to be.
And while I think he contributed to the SB collapse, I think lesser so to blame him versus Philly last year as that was god-awful playcalling on the goal line.
Put Barkley aside, do you think DG/PS subscribe to your thinking above in putting together a franchise, or did these QBs not wow them in the draft?
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
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DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.
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In comment 13953912 Jimmy Googs said:
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DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.
I agree, although my gut tells me Eli isn't going to be the greatest mentor here. He may have a bit of chip on his shoulder, there have been comments made by him before that lead you to believe its more on the backups to step up, and I think he may very well like all his toys on the field at once finally!
But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
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or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?
But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.
I always recall David Carr talking about Eli. He supported the first point above. But not the second. Eli may be a great instructor in the academies, but Carr eluded to point when it comes to his starting gig that Eli created more of a wall between himself and the backups. Whether that his competitive spirit, pride, whatever...he wasn't going to be helpful.
Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
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In comment 13953947 pjcas18 said:
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or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.
I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.
For now at least.
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?
How can you ask this question when three of the last four super bowl winning quarterbacks have been Foles, Brady and Wilson??? It could not be more clear what Britt is saying and what the Giants appear to be doing. And it makes sense.
Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?
Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.
I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"
It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.
that makes complete sense.
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I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:
Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?
Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.
I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"
It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.
The point isn't that he's not the starter, the point is that the system made him look better than he was. It was the system, not Foles. Shurmer did sommething similar with Keenum.
As far as mid round prospects go, it's happening more and more lately actually.
Garapolo, Wilson, Cousins.... Teams are finding QB talent in the middle rounds.
Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick.
We all know the story with Wilson, he was NOT a developmental QB.
Cousins hasn't won anything.
I think you will be disappointed.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
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DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.
Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.
Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.
One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.
I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
until Jints Central brings in Jay Cutler to be the vet back up
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
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and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
I didn't say that. What I said exactly:
I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.
I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
Being overrated and overpaid are two different entities.
I'd be happy with Matt Ryan as my QB. I would not be happy paying any QB 30 million a year. It's too much, it's out of control.
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The cap does matter
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.
But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.
What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.
When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.
Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.
The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.
Of course a team can keep a guy they truly want, but there’s a trade off. If a team has to let 2 or 3 guys walk to pursue that one guy, it’s disingenuous to say the cap isn’t really a factor because they got their guy.
Your Giants example is hollow bc they didn’t have quality players on second contracts due to an extended run of shitty drafts. So of course the cap didn’t matter for the Giants at that point — Eli, DRC, and a couple of shitty LBs were the only guys making money that off-season.
The cap is a zero sum game. If you pay one or a handful of guys you have to save elsewhere.
It’s going to happen sooner or later.
That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.
The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.
That said, insofar as QB contracts are concerned, I do not believe any non-winning SB QBs should get Cousins type guarantees, THAT’S outrageous imo.
But it is what it is
That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.
The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.
No one is talking about accidentally going over the cap, or even getting caught in cap hell. That's an angle you keep injecting into other people's arguments (including mine) that no one else is bringing up.
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In comment 13954141 Britt in VA said:
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and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.
That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
Ok, we won't waste each others time.
Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.
Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.
And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?
I didn't say that. What I said exactly:
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They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.
I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).
Another poster, in agreement with your point, mentioned Brady and Wilson - which is why I mentioned Brady.
I don't view Kirk Cousins as the ideal QB, we just have different perspectives.
I'll take my shot at a Peyton Manning, Carson Wentz, Ryan, Eli, Rivers, even a Cam Newton or Andrew Luck or Jared Goff, etc. before putting my franchise future in the hands of Kirk Cousins.
And clearly the Redskins didn't expect Cousins to become what he did, why trade up so much for RG3 if that were the case?
Clearly the Eagles didn't expect Foles to lead them to a SB, he was kind of an afterthought, signed to be a backup.
The only QB I feel like meets the "draft and develop" model in the past 15 years was Tony Romo.
And you're not looking for a franchise QB, but if there is any position on the field that makes sense to keep some stability it's QB IMO.
Let's say your model works and you find a QB, why would you want to repeat that every 4/5 years? Odds are you'll miss next time (and the model won't work to begin with).
Lastly, I hope one of Webb or Lauletta winds up the next Eli or even better the next Aaron Rodgers, but I doubt anyone really expects that and I'd wager the Giants wind up using a high draft pick on a QB to replace Eli.
Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).
I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
To be the highest paid quarterback, you need to produce when it counts.
Any objective way of looking at it, Eli is better in this regard than Ryan: 1) Manning is 8-4 vs Ryan's 4-6 in the post season; 2) in the only post season game in which they faced each other, during the 2011 playoffs, the Giants won by a score of 24-2 and Eli utterly dominated Ryan in yards (270-183), TDs (3-0) and QBR (129-71); and 3) on the most important play in both of their careers, Eli avoided the sack and made the pass to Tyree leading to the greatest upset win in Super Bowl XLII and Ryan took the sack in Super Bowl LI which led to the greatest comeback loss in NFL history.
Ryan may be a good regular season quarterback, but when it matters, Eli has been and continues to be by far the superior player.
Ryan is so outrageously overpaid it is comical. And more than anyone else, his very own teammates know this. Which is why the Falcons will grossly underachieve this year.
Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).
The Falcons lost that game BECAUSE Ryan took that sack. Otherwise they win that game. He may have had a good game until that point, but his lack of judgement at such a vital moment is simply inexcusable. And rewarding that kind of ineptitude to the tune of the highest contract in NFL history is an atrocious lack of judgement by Arthur Blank.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...
It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.
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did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.
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In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:
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did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.
Not sure either. I just assumed he had that permission given his experience
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did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...
It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.
Agree Ryan deserves some blame, but he's probably 4th or 5th on the list.
And I don't think the sack was the coup de grace.
that would have been a 52 yard FG after the sack if they didn't pick up a yard on 3rd down (after ideally running the ball), practically automatic for Bryant.
The holding penalty on 3rd down was the real killer.
If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.
1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?
Exactly. Run the ball three times, kick the FG, and Matt Ryan and 99.99% chance the Falcons hoist the Lombardi trophy. Simple as that.
He was a rookie of the year, an MVP, has been a Pro Bowler 4 times, has taken his team to playoffs 6 of his 10 years when the team only made the playoffs 5 of the previous 43 years.
You want to go look at stupid QB contracts, go look at Cousins or Jimmy G's...not Ryan's.