for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NGT: Matt Ryan Highest Paid QB in Football

NorwoodWideRight : 5/3/2018 4:13 pm
$30mm/year, per Twitter:

Matt Ryan has agreed to a 5 year extension with @AtlantaFalcons that makes him first $30 mill per year QB w $100 mill guaranteed, per league and team sources.
I don't think  
Gman11 : 5/3/2018 4:15 pm : link
I could spend $100 million in my lifetime. What do these guys do with all that money? My wife could go through it in about a week.
Good luck with that, Atlanta  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 4:19 pm : link
.
It’s $150 mil  
bradshaw44 : 5/3/2018 4:20 pm : link
... per nfln just now.
And next year  
I Love Clams Casino : 5/3/2018 4:20 pm : link
It'll be somebody else
Sorry just saw  
bradshaw44 : 5/3/2018 4:21 pm : link
It is $100 guaranteed. My bad
Rodgers will best it  
JonC : 5/3/2018 4:24 pm : link
.
It makes you wonder how much these guys would  
V.I.G. : 5/3/2018 4:24 pm : link
take on a non guaranteed deal. Doesn't seem like much of a discount for gteed money.

I mean what happens if he get's theisman'd this year. Dead franchise.
RE: It’s $150 mil  
superspynyg : 5/3/2018 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13953041 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
... per nfln just now.


Not the Giants though. We wont have to pay a qb that much money for at least 3-5 years at the minimum.

Even if Eli retires or is cut next season and Webb takes over and becomes a stud, his contract wont end till 2021. If Lauletta is the man then not till 2022. And if they are both bums who knows....But I don't like that last part.
RE: RE: It’s $150 mil  
Amtoft : 5/3/2018 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13953066 superspynyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13953041 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


... per nfln just now.



Not the Giants though. We wont have to pay a qb that much money for at least 3-5 years at the minimum.

Even if Eli retires or is cut next season and Webb takes over and becomes a stud, his contract wont end till 2021. If Lauletta is the man then not till 2022. And if they are both bums who knows....But I don't like that last part.


Unless say a Matthew Stafford becomes a FA and we wanted to sign him.
Probably $100M in guarantees but not  
shyster : 5/3/2018 4:32 pm : link
$100M fully guaranteed as of signing.

Usually the way it works. Jarvis Landry was headlined as 5/75 with $47M guaranteed but, a week later when all the details were out, it was actually a guaranteed 2/34 with his $13M 2020 salary subject to option.

Giants did give Solder all of his guaranteed money fully guaranteed but that's rare.

Ryan's fully guaranteed will still be huge but we'll have to wait to see the true number.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/3/2018 4:33 pm : link
He'll be the "highest paid" for like a year until the next guy is up. Round and round we go.
I liked Ryan and used to defend him against detractors  
Chris684 : 5/3/2018 4:40 pm : link
That was before he burned all of us last year in Philly.

That was the game the Eagles were there to be beaten. 1st and goal from the 9.

Sickening.
Does this mean Odell’s price just went up?  
UberAlias : 5/3/2018 4:40 pm : link
Lol.
At what point does this end  
Brown Recluse : 5/3/2018 4:41 pm : link
.
RE: Probably $100M in guarantees but not  
pjcas18 : 5/3/2018 4:42 pm : link
In comment 13953081 shyster said:
Quote:
$100M fully guaranteed as of signing.

Usually the way it works. Jarvis Landry was headlined as 5/75 with $47M guaranteed but, a week later when all the details were out, it was actually a guaranteed 2/34 with his $13M 2020 salary subject to option.

Giants did give Solder all of his guaranteed money fully guaranteed but that's rare.

Ryan's fully guaranteed will still be huge but we'll have to wait to see the true number.


Not solely subject to option, but guaranteed for injury which is important to the player. As I understand it, if he can't pass a physical for the 2020 season, he gets paid his 2020 salary which is guaranteed for injury (of course that may be somewhat subjective, but I think if it was egregious the NFLPA would file a grievance)

otherwise agree.

Quote:
...his $13M 2020 salary subject to option..
Aaron Rodgers,  
Section331 : 5/3/2018 4:45 pm : link
you're up next! I can't imagine what he'll get.
Matt Ryan: The personification of QB Hell.  
Boy Cord : 5/3/2018 4:47 pm : link
$30 million per year for pretty statistics but no big wins. No thank you.
RE: At what point does this end  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/3/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13953108 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
.


When the Cap stops expanding.
RE: RE: Probably $100M in guarantees but not  
shyster : 5/3/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13953113 pjcas18 said:
Quote:



Not solely subject to option, but guaranteed for injury which is important to the player.



Yes, that is a detail that OTC mentions that Spotrac does not and I appreciate the clarification.

Browns can release Landry after 2019 and avoid the 2020 salary; but only if he is healthy.
It's probably back ended, contract  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/3/2018 4:51 pm : link
giving him good money now, and then bigger numbers towards the end, that he could possibly never see.
Think about this for a second:  
Jerry "Championship" Reese : 5/3/2018 4:53 pm : link
Floyd Mayweather earned nearly 600 million, over half a billion dollars, in his last two nights alone. How do you think that makes Quarterbacks feel, and any other athletes feel for that matter? This man earned more in two fights than any other athletes could earn via salary in an entire career.
Makes Eli's cash earnings of $16M this year  
Diver_Down : 5/3/2018 4:55 pm : link
a bargain.
RE: Matt Ryan: The personification of QB Hell.  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13953128 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
$30 million per year for pretty statistics but no big wins. No thank you.


The stats aren't even that pretty. He threw 20 TDs last year, and Atlanta was 15th in the NFL in scoring offense. Once Kyle Shanahan left he regressed to what he's been.

They're out of their minds.
Hard to field competitive team  
ZogZerg : 5/3/2018 5:06 pm : link
Paying that kind of money for an average QB.
RE: Hard to field competitive team  
pjcas18 : 5/3/2018 5:15 pm : link
In comment 13953174 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
Paying that kind of money for an average QB.


Come on, calling Matt Ryan average make you look foolish, it does not make him look average.

And people don't think inflation is that severe  
Jerry "Championship" Reese : 5/3/2018 5:16 pm : link
...
RE: RE: Hard to field competitive team  
Mdgiantsfan : 5/3/2018 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13953201 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13953174 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


Paying that kind of money for an average QB.



Come on, calling Matt Ryan average make you look foolish, it does not make him look average.


And that team was on the verge of the Conf championship and year removed from the SB.
He’s on that cusp  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 5:21 pm : link
of who you pay and who you move on without. He’s much better than average but he isn’t a QB who can carry a team through tough times or through injuries.

I get why they kinda had to do this, but I certainly wouldn’t have.
RE: RE: RE: Hard to field competitive team  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 5:26 pm : link
In comment 13953207 Mdgiantsfan said:
Quote:
In comment 13953201 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13953174 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


Paying that kind of money for an average QB.



Come on, calling Matt Ryan average make you look foolish, it does not make him look average.




And that team was on the verge of the Conf championship and year removed from the SB.


And it won't get that good again.
I'd feel better  
pjcas18 : 5/3/2018 5:34 pm : link
about paying Matt Ryan than I would about Matthew Stafford.

And I don't know if Ryan is a QB you can't win with.

I mean, no one is a winner until they are.

Peyton went a long time until he won and dealt with the stigma. So did Brees.

Brees was 30 before winning a SB, so was Peyton.

Ryan is 32. I wouldn't pay him this contract, but he's definitely not average and if he did win a SB I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. It's really not his fault they didn't win one.
RE: I'd feel better  
bradshaw44 : 5/3/2018 5:40 pm : link
In comment 13953269 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
about paying Matt Ryan than I would about Matthew Stafford.

And I don't know if Ryan is a QB you can't win with.

I mean, no one is a winner until they are.

Peyton went a long time until he won and dealt with the stigma. So did Brees.

Brees was 30 before winning a SB, so was Peyton.

Ryan is 32. I wouldn't pay him this contract, but he's definitely not average and if he did win a SB I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. It's really not his fault they didn't win one.


If Atlanta didn’t pay him, someone else would. And all things considered, with what’s out there and in the draft, there aren’t many, if any that have proven they can get to the big dance. And extremely close to doing it two years ina row.
RE: RE: RE: It’s $150 mil  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 5:42 pm : link
In comment 13953076 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 13953066 superspynyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13953041 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


... per nfln just now.



Not the Giants though. We wont have to pay a qb that much money for at least 3-5 years at the minimum.

Even if Eli retires or is cut next season and Webb takes over and becomes a stud, his contract wont end till 2021. If Lauletta is the man then not till 2022. And if they are both bums who knows....But I don't like that last part.



Unless say a Matthew Stafford becomes a FA and we wanted to sign him.

Stafford has all five years remaining on the contract he signed last year and the way the contract is structured, it would be extremely painful for Detroit to release him anytime sooner than the final year of his contract (2022). If they did, it would be for a reason (severe injury or ineffectiveness, etc.) that would probably also preclude the Giants from wanting to sign him.
RE: At what point does this end  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 5:44 pm : link
In comment 13953108 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
.

When has it ever ended, and why would it ever end? The cap goes up every year. Revenues go up every year. Salaries go up every year (generally). New contract equals new benchmark.
RE: I'd feel better  
Giantslifer : 5/3/2018 5:45 pm : link
In comment 13953269 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
about paying Matt Ryan than I would about Matthew Stafford.

And I don't know if Ryan is a QB you can't win with.

I mean, no one is a winner until they are.

Peyton went a long time until he won and dealt with the stigma. So did Brees.

Brees was 30 before winning a SB, so was Peyton.

Ryan is 32. I wouldn't pay him this contract, but he's definitely not average and if he did win a SB I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. It's really not his fault they didn't win one.


Actually, IT WAS HIS FAULT. Complete Incompetence for the last 10+/- plays.
RE: Matt Ryan: The personification of QB Hell.  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 5:46 pm : link
In comment 13953128 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
$30 million per year for pretty statistics but no big wins. No thank you.

This is an odd stance to take. He's an NFL MVP and was an asinine set of playcalls and a gassed defense away from being a SB champ.
RE: RE: At what point does this end  
section125 : 5/3/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13953283 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13953108 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


.


When has it ever ended, and why would it ever end? The cap goes up every year. Revenues go up every year. Salaries go up every year (generally). New contract equals new benchmark.


Don't mind salaries going up, but QBs are getting too big a piece of the pie.
But it is whatever the teams are willing to pay.
Even with the increases in the cap,  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 5:50 pm : link
the percentage of the cap allocated to the franchise QB appears to be going up. In 2018 Garoppolo will eat 17.5% of San Francisco's cap, which I'm confident saying is a record in the cap era. There are a couple other guys around 14%.
RE: RE: RE: At what point does this end  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 5:53 pm : link
In comment 13953293 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13953283 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13953108 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


.


When has it ever ended, and why would it ever end? The cap goes up every year. Revenues go up every year. Salaries go up every year (generally). New contract equals new benchmark.



Don't mind salaries going up, but QBs are getting too big a piece of the pie.
But it is whatever the teams are willing to pay.

I do agree with this. There's going to need to be a glut of talented QBs (or talented coaches who can win in spite of their lack thereof) in order to drive the price down.
RE: Even with the increases in the cap,  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 5:58 pm : link
In comment 13953295 Go Terps said:
Quote:
the percentage of the cap allocated to the franchise QB appears to be going up. In 2018 Garoppolo will eat 17.5% of San Francisco's cap, which I'm confident saying is a record in the cap era. There are a couple other guys around 14%.

The ironic thing is just maybe the Giants are going the route that you have been suggesting. Maybe they intend to draft a QB that fits the scheme every couple of years to have cheap, interchangeable QBs so they can fill the rest of the roster. The reason I say it is ironic is because you are also on record as to hating the Barkley pick. But when Eli is gone, if they are not paying franchise QB money to one guy, paying a RB market value is much easier to swallow.

I have no idea if this is the direction they have intentionally chosen, I guess time will tell, but I do know paying Barkley a second contract will be much, much less than paying a QB a second contract, assuming they are even average. And if they aren’t even average, then I guess they made the right choice anyways
RE: I'd feel better  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 13953269 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
about paying Matt Ryan than I would about Matthew Stafford.

And I don't know if Ryan is a QB you can't win with.

I mean, no one is a winner until they are.

Peyton went a long time until he won and dealt with the stigma. So did Brees.

Brees was 30 before winning a SB, so was Peyton.

Ryan is 32. I wouldn't pay him this contract, but he's definitely not average and if he did win a SB I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. It's really not his fault they didn't win one.


I don’t think I would. Stafford is grittier and has a better arm. Switch their teams and I think I’d choose Stafford.
Overpaying for QB  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:02 pm : link
is he absolute worst. Thread upon thread about not over paying for other positions but the worst offender is at QB, by far.

If you can’t find a great one, you can be mediocre without spending $30 million per year. I’d rather get sick trying to find the next great QB for a decade than throw this kind of money at a QB who isn’t great.
RE: RE: RE: RE: At what point does this end  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:04 pm : link
In comment 13953299 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13953293 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13953283 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13953108 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


.


When has it ever ended, and why would it ever end? The cap goes up every year. Revenues go up every year. Salaries go up every year (generally). New contract equals new benchmark.



Don't mind salaries going up, but QBs are getting too big a piece of the pie.
But it is whatever the teams are willing to pay.


I do agree with this. There's going to need to be a glut of talented QBs (or talented coaches who can win in spite of their lack thereof) in order to drive the price down.


Or a supreme lack of production for teams to wake up and see it’s not worth it. Every bubble bursts, it will happen eventually.
RE: RE: Matt Ryan: The personification of QB Hell.  
Boy Cord : 5/3/2018 6:08 pm : link
In comment 13953287 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13953128 Boy Cord said:


Quote:


$30 million per year for pretty statistics but no big wins. No thank you.


This is an odd stance to take. He's an NFL MVP and was an asinine set of playcalls and a gassed defense away from being a SB champ.


The Eagles playoff loss in fresh in my mind. Also, he was one of the few people that could have impacted the play calls in the Super Bowl and he didn't.
Fascinating to see the BBI salary cap police  
the mike : 5/3/2018 6:13 pm : link
trying to justify the lunacy of this contract while simultaneously making arguments that Saquon Barkley is overpaid.

Matt Ryan has very quickly superseded Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo and Matthew Stafford as the most resented man in NFL history. Welcome to quarterback hell Arthur Blank!
League MVP on his resume but "no big wins" narratives.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 6:15 pm : link
I guess it's to be expected. Peyton had to win two super bowls to shake the tag that he was a big game choker.
His MVP year was an outlier  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:21 pm : link
good for him for winning the award, and he should have won a title but blew ass with he rest of his team in the 2nd half of the SB. But there’s a very real possibility he will never see a season like he had 2 years ago ever again.

Like I said earlier, Atlanta had to do this and I get it. He’s right on that cusp. But slightly lesser players are going to top this contract, which is primarily what I’m against.
RE: RE: Even with the increases in the cap,  
the mike : 5/3/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13953311 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13953295 Go Terps said:


Quote:


the percentage of the cap allocated to the franchise QB appears to be going up. In 2018 Garoppolo will eat 17.5% of San Francisco's cap, which I'm confident saying is a record in the cap era. There are a couple other guys around 14%.


The ironic thing is just maybe the Giants are going the route that you have been suggesting. Maybe they intend to draft a QB that fits the scheme every couple of years to have cheap, interchangeable QBs so they can fill the rest of the roster. The reason I say it is ironic is because you are also on record as to hating the Barkley pick. But when Eli is gone, if they are not paying franchise QB money to one guy, paying a RB market value is much easier to swallow.

I have no idea if this is the direction they have intentionally chosen, I guess time will tell, but I do know paying Barkley a second contract will be much, much less than paying a QB a second contract, assuming they are even average. And if they aren’t even average, then I guess they made the right choice anyways


You think?

Maybe hiring a coach who has a scheme in which a quarterback like Case Keenum, working in a balanced offensive attack, can be successful, makes some sense...

Maybe having a quarterback who has won two super bowls yet makes about a third less than the highest paid quarterbacks in the league and will therefore be embraced by his teammates and not resented makes some sense...

And maybe having a succession process that best enables mid-round quarterback draftees to exceed expectations ala Nick Foles or Russell Wilson by working within this balanced offensive attack makes some sense...

At some point, most of you will see that what Gettleman is doing for the Giants makes a lot of sense.

The rest of you - please carry on bashing running back positional value and gushing over unproven, undeserving and/or untalented opposing quarterbacks...
Russell Wilson is not an example of taking a midround pick  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 6:43 pm : link
and making him a successful quarterback within a scheme.

Russell Wilson is an example of the league overlooking ability due to a player not fitting the accepted norms of the position.
In business you don't get what you deserve  
Matt in SGS : 5/3/2018 6:43 pm : link
you get what you negotiate.
Ryan is the most overrated QB in the league  
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 6:52 pm : link
Forget the money for a second and look at all of the resources they pumped into the offense over the years to prop him up.
RE: RE: Even with the increases in the cap,  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13953311 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13953295 Go Terps said:


Quote:


the percentage of the cap allocated to the franchise QB appears to be going up. In 2018 Garoppolo will eat 17.5% of San Francisco's cap, which I'm confident saying is a record in the cap era. There are a couple other guys around 14%.


The ironic thing is just maybe the Giants are going the route that you have been suggesting. Maybe they intend to draft a QB that fits the scheme every couple of years to have cheap, interchangeable QBs so they can fill the rest of the roster. The reason I say it is ironic is because you are also on record as to hating the Barkley pick. But when Eli is gone, if they are not paying franchise QB money to one guy, paying a RB market value is much easier to swallow.

I have no idea if this is the direction they have intentionally chosen, I guess time will tell, but I do know paying Barkley a second contract will be much, much less than paying a QB a second contract, assuming they are even average. And if they aren’t even average, then I guess they made the right choice anyways


There's no indication that the Giants will be approaching the quarterback position the way I've suggested. That determination can be made the next time they have a quarterback that's up for a huge new deal. There are two teams in our division in that situation: Philly and Dallas. I've got my fingers crossed that Wentz and Prescott get $30 million a year.
Go Terps  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 7:02 pm : link
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but passing on all of the QBs to take a QB in the 4th, who happens to have all the tools the Shurmur lives could very well be that indication. Only time will tell but it is strange that at least initially, this could be part of their plan and you’re still bitter about the pick
Hmm  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/3/2018 7:17 pm : link
So that's what a serviceable A-Rod level non-cluth franchise QB makes.
I love the  
Ned In Atlanta : 5/3/2018 8:15 pm : link
"nah, I'd let him walk"crowd. Beyond dumb
Was Jake Delohome  
bradshaw44 : 5/3/2018 8:20 pm : link
ever in the top paid QB's? I feel like this akin to paying Delhome the most money ever. Nice QB, but far from what shoudl be the highest paid ever.
RE: I love the  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13953497 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
"nah, I'd let him walk"crowd. Beyond dumb


I’d try to trade him, for starters. The Redskins actually had it right but they fucked up by not getting a trade done with Cousins. Not paying him was smart but then they fucked it up a second time by trading for and paying Smith.
The Redskins and Chiefs are the examples to look at  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 8:35 pm : link
Who came off better in that trade?

Trading Ryan would have been a great move for Atlanta, but they're entrenched in the franchise QB ideology.
Even Aaron Rodgers  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 8:37 pm : link
I think he's clearly the best player in the league, but paying him this type of contract would be a scary prospect.
RE: The Redskins and Chiefs are the examples to look at  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 8:43 pm : link
In comment 13953523 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Who came off better in that trade?

Trading Ryan would have been a great move for Atlanta, but they're entrenched in the franchise QB ideology.

Do we have an answer for that yet? It’s great to look on papaer at the salary cap and make all of your opinions based off of that, and we all know you’re a cap addict, but can we see some results before claiming a winner? Or is it just about who makes out better cap wise? Oh, well, of course it is with you.
RE: RE: The Redskins and Chiefs are the examples to look at  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13953537 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13953523 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Who came off better in that trade?

Trading Ryan would have been a great move for Atlanta, but they're entrenched in the franchise QB ideology.


Do we have an answer for that yet? It’s great to look on papaer at the salary cap and make all of your opinions based off of that, and we all know you’re a cap addict, but can we see some results before claiming a winner? Or is it just about who makes out better cap wise? Oh, well, of course it is with you.


I'm going to tell you something. You're the worst poster on this site and that is saying something. Can't have a conversation with you at all without you being a complete asshole.
RE: RE: RE: The Redskins and Chiefs are the examples to look at  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 9:01 pm : link
In comment 13953550 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13953537 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13953523 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Who came off better in that trade?

Trading Ryan would have been a great move for Atlanta, but they're entrenched in the franchise QB ideology.


Do we have an answer for that yet? It’s great to look on papaer at the salary cap and make all of your opinions based off of that, and we all know you’re a cap addict, but can we see some results before claiming a winner? Or is it just about who makes out better cap wise? Oh, well, of course it is with you.



I'm going to tell you something. You're the worst poster on this site and that is saying something. Can't have a conversation with you at all without you being a complete asshole.

Thanks! That’s saying something for sure, I’m impressed! Now if you can tell me what I said was wrong? I’m sorry but I have a low level tolerance for guys that think they are always the smartest guy in the room. And for people that are always bitching about everything. You happen to fall into both categories.

I happen to think it’s strange that you’re always so outside the box when it comes to QB play (unless of course the Giants don’t take the next franchise QB in the draft) but when it comes to taking a RB at 2, you follow the crowd and decide that since the rest of the league has devalued the position, surely we must avoid RBs! Setting aside the fact that the league is always evolving and changing, and there is no one formula for success, you seem to be all over the map. Are we following the NFLs criteria for positional value or aren’t we? Or are we just going to pick and choose?

32 teams are idiots for wanting franchise QBs  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 9:06 pm : link
but those same 32 teams are surely geniuses for devaluing the RB.position.
Why do topics..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 9:20 pm : link
about the salary cap seem to constantly pop up, even though we are in an era of a relaxed cap and more maneurvability than ever?

Most teams have a cap guru who navigates the minefield adeptly, both because of the historical lessons learned in what constitutes a bad contract and because the cap continues to rise over $10M per year.

The time to question contracts is when the cap levels off or if you can rouse up a time machine and go back to the 90's.
RE: Why do topics..  
BigBlueShock : 5/3/2018 9:42 pm : link
In comment 13953595 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
about the salary cap seem to constantly pop up, even though we are in an era of a relaxed cap and more maneurvability than ever?

Most teams have a cap guru who navigates the minefield adeptly, both because of the historical lessons learned in what constitutes a bad contract and because the cap continues to rise over $10M per year.

The time to question contracts is when the cap levels off or if you can rouse up a time machine and go back to the 90's.

GoTerps is on record saythat he wouldn’t be opposed to drafting a punter or a kicker with a 1st or 2nd round pick because they can be game changers. Yet he’s completely against taking a RB with the 2nd overall pick, based ONLY on the fact that he’ll make more money than others at his position. Just think about that for a minute. He’d go incredibly against the grain for a punter, but RB is where he draws the line. And it is me that he calls out as the worst poster on the site for calling his crap out...
BBS..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 9:53 pm : link
it just seems that posters increasingly don't understand the cap and the ease that experts have in structuring contracts to fit under it.

I had posted about a month ago that in the 90's, there were years when 50% or more of the league was struggling to meet the cap, teams had penalties for going over, and teams were penalized for tampering with the cap.

In the past 5 years, the league has averaged 3 teams per year that are in danger of being over the cap or had to make significant moves to get under the cap.

It is odd to me because there was actually a time to worry about the cap. There was a time good players were cap casualties. But that time passed over a decade ago.

I have a more fundamental issue with Go Terps take on the cap - that teams should just keep rotating in cheap QB's on their 1st contracts. Not only is that going against the grain, it is also going against the way teams have actually built champions.
The salary cap comes up because it matters  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 9:59 pm : link
When a single player on a roster of 53 is being paid 15% of the team's salary cap, that matters. It influences decision making. That seems self evident.
It's actually also how some good teams have been torn down  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 10:03 pm : link
Seattle and Baltimore are two champions who went downhill the moment they paid their quarterbacks. Other teams have hamstrung themselves by paying huge money to quarterbacks who don't deserve it.
It isn't nearly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 10:08 pm : link
as tangible as you make it sound.

The cap guys know how much is allocated, especially on long-term contracts. If they have modeled that a player has a large chunk of the cap, they are able to balance salary with signing bonuses and total contract amounts to know what is coming off the cap each year and when guys can be optimally cut or restructured.

And basically, the cap doesn't prevent guys from getting signed on a team with excellent cap management. Just look at the past offseason. People said we'd have no chance to land a top OL if we signed any other players.

Same narrative is repeated every year and it is off base. The cap prevents a team of megastars, but it doesn't prevent building a roster of starters.

Actually, the area it impacts most is depth. But that's rarely waht people are arguing about. They'd bitch that paying a QB 15% of the cap is madness and then in the next breath blow hot air about the poor positional value of RB's, not recognizing that the comments are contradictory.
Both Baltimore...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 10:14 pm : link
and Seattle have gone downhill because their defense aged and that dominant unit couldn't carry the team. And basically, Seattle's decline is restricted to last year, when their entire defensive backfield was sidelined.

And even then, the cap didn't restrict them from signing top guys. Jimmy Graham?? Mike Wallace??

you can argue if they signed the right guys, but that's also part of the decline, not that they didn't have money to do it.
RE: It isn't nearly..  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 10:17 pm : link
In comment 13953664 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
as tangible as you make it sound.

The cap guys know how much is allocated, especially on long-term contracts. If they have modeled that a player has a large chunk of the cap, they are able to balance salary with signing bonuses and total contract amounts to know what is coming off the cap each year and when guys can be optimally cut or restructured.

And basically, the cap doesn't prevent guys from getting signed on a team with excellent cap management. Just look at the past offseason. People said we'd have no chance to land a top OL if we signed any other players.

Same narrative is repeated every year and it is off base. The cap prevents a team of megastars, but it doesn't prevent building a roster of starters.

Actually, the area it impacts most is depth. But that's rarely waht people are arguing about. They'd bitch that paying a QB 15% of the cap is madness and then in the next breath blow hot air about the poor positional value of RB's, not recognizing that the comments are contradictory.

This is a great post. Unfortunately, there are some who are so eager to complain about literally every large contract handed out around the league that you wonder who they actually would spend all the cap savings on.
Dunk..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 10:21 pm : link
I almost think, and I'm not kidding, that people's idea of excellent use of the cap would be to have $50M left over than be right up against the cap.

Certainly not everyone, but a decent amount of people think that way. Probably the same people that think getting federal taxes back is a good thing.
Go look at Seattle's run/pass splits before and after the Wilson deal  
Go Terps : 5/3/2018 10:22 pm : link
I've posted them before. The offense completely changed its identity when they paid him.

Anyway, if you don't think the salary cap and franchise quarterback contracts inform decisions around the league, I don't know what to tell you.
RE: Dunk..  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13953677 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I almost think, and I'm not kidding, that people's idea of excellent use of the cap would be to have $50M left over than be right up against the cap.

Certainly not everyone, but a decent amount of people think that way. Probably the same people that think getting federal taxes back is a good thing.

I genuinely believe that they think that maybe tickets will cost less if the contracts are smaller.

As someone who has worked in a business capacity in sports for years, I can assure anyone that it's almost always a completely separate P+L and fans are never going to get a rebate for the cap room their team doesn't spend.
RE: Go look at Seattle's run/pass splits before and after the Wilson deal  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/3/2018 10:36 pm : link
In comment 13953680 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've posted them before. The offense completely changed its identity when they paid him.

Anyway, if you don't think the salary cap and franchise quarterback contracts inform decisions around the league, I don't know what to tell you.

Can you also provide the splits for when they traded Max Unger for Jimmy Graham? And also for when Marshawn Lynch retired?

Just want to help make sure there's no noise in your data.
The cap does matter  
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.

If the cap was truly a non-issue today, the only decision would be is this player worth keeping or not. There’s obviously way more that goes into it. Guys like Solder, Norwell, Snacks, Whitworth, etc would never hit the market.
Its not economics - its psychology...  
the mike : 5/4/2018 7:19 am : link
Until they define CAP space by position, which is probably coming in a future CBA, allocating a huge percentage of the CAP to a quarterback, particularly one who hasn't done anything, virtually sows the seeds for a team's demise. Why? Because Football is truly a team game. And it is a game in which one or a couple of "alpha" players, even the quarterback, cannot so dominate a game as to make the supporting cast virtually irrelevant. So you really can't compare the sport to Baseball, which is more like a set of individual transactions packaged together as a collective, or Basketball, where a couple of players can determine outcomes on a regular basis.

In Football, the team needs to be and play "as one". When an above average player who has never won a super bowl gets paid absurd amounts of money taken from the pockets of his teammates, the motivational implications are untenable. Players "not paid" will simply not give maximum energy to win.

Tom Brady truly understands this which is why he allows himself to be grossly underpaid when he is in fact the one quarterback in the NFL who should be paid triple the league average. But Brady knows the Patriots cannot win if he takes too large of a percentage of the CAP. It is not because of the economics of skillfully working the nuanced and esoteric rules of the CAP. It is because he knows how destructive it is psychologically in a team sport to be paid grossly higher than any of his teammates. It ain't rocket science fellas...

Look for the Falcons, Lions and Vikings to grossly underachieve this year.... there will be a lot of reasons given, but the main reason is that three tone deaf owners, who run franchises that have never won a super bowl, really don't have a clue about team psychology in the sport of football.
Of course the cap..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2018 7:48 am : link
impacts decisions. This post is accurate:

Quote:
The cap does matter
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.


But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.

What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.

When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.

Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.

The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.
Lots of good discussion here  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 8:01 am : link
and I agree with a lot of it on both sides.

It's true, in this era, teams have become adept at manipulating the cap and generally you don't see many of the same issues as the late 90's, with players being cut (and the key is - that the team wanted to keep) but the cap is finite and there are cuts or non-signings that happen because of limited cap space.

However, when you combine poor drafting, injuries, and under-performing players who are on high $$$ contracts then you have a real cap problem b/c your main way to react to any single one of of those three is with FA signings. When they all happen, it's really hard to be competitive.

Which is what makes signings like Ryan's not without risk, when you have one player taking up that much of the cap, it means you have to hit your draft picks and you need your other players (including Ryan) on high $$ contracts to perform well.

Just my opinion, I say the cap is relevant, but with good management it shouldn't become an issue. But it does sometimes.

pj..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2018 8:09 am : link
that's an excellent overview.

The cap exists to support parity and keep teams from using a checkbook to dominate.

It is far less restrictive than it once was and now functions more as a barrier to loading up on Superstars than in the past when it was a barrier to keeping talent or signing talent.

I'm trying to temper those who keep bringing the cap up in any thread about player signings. It is a consideration taken into account, but it is hardly the albatross that it is made out to be.
Good read on cap guys...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 8:28 am : link
Back to OP...I am a Matt Ryan fan and think he should be a high paid guy in that top group. While he may not have won the big one, he is a winner if you look at the record.

And while I think he contributed to the SB collapse, I think lesser so to blame him versus Philly last year as that was god-awful playcalling on the goal line.

The system is broken....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 8:34 am : link
This is one of the reasons why I believe you need to move away from the traditional franchise QB model of building a team. You get a strong system in place, a great running game and defense, and you get a lesser, but smart, QB to manage it all.
RE: The system is broken....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 8:40 am : link
In comment 13953891 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
This is one of the reasons why I believe you need to move away from the traditional franchise QB model of building a team. You get a strong system in place, a great running game and defense, and you get a lesser, but smart, QB to manage it all.


Put Barkley aside, do you think DG/PS subscribe to your thinking above in putting together a franchise, or did these QBs not wow them in the draft?

Well, they did draft Lauletta....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 8:44 am : link
but not sure. Guess we'll see what they do when Eli retires.
The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 8:47 am : link
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.
RE: The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 8:55 am : link
In comment 13953912 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.


Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.

Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.

Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.

One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.

I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.
Brady and Peyton Manning  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/4/2018 8:57 am : link
Are worth 30 million a year. Ryan, Keenum, and Cousins are not.
Odds are against either Davis  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 9:02 am : link
or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.

I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.

For now at least.

RE: RE: The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it  
the mike : 5/4/2018 9:04 am : link
In comment 13953927 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13953912 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.



Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.

Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.

Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.

One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.

I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.


Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.
RE: RE: RE: The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 9:13 am : link
In comment 13953951 the mike said:
Quote:
In comment 13953927 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13953912 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.



Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.

Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.

Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.

One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.

I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.

Completely agree - love the dynamic going into this year's camp.


I agree, although my gut tells me Eli isn't going to be the greatest mentor here. He may have a bit of chip on his shoulder, there have been comments made by him before that lead you to believe its more on the backups to step up, and I think he may very well like all his toys on the field at once finally!
He doesn't have to be their mentor per se....  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 9:31 am : link
he just has to conduct himself as he always does, professionally. Just be an example of how to go about business, how to practice, how to train, how to work.

But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.
RE: Odds are against either Davis  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 9:36 am : link
In comment 13953947 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.

I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.

For now at least.


They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.
RE: RE: Odds are against either Davis  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 13954028 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13953947 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.

I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.

For now at least.




They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.


Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?

RE: He doesn't have to be their mentor per se....  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13954008 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
he just has to conduct himself as he always does, professionally. Just be an example of how to go about business, how to practice, how to train, how to work.

But that aside, I do think he will help them. I mean, he's worked with tons of QB's at the Manning passing academy over the years.


I always recall David Carr talking about Eli. He supported the first point above. But not the second. Eli may be a great instructor in the academies, but Carr eluded to point when it comes to his starting gig that Eli created more of a wall between himself and the backups. Whether that his competitive spirit, pride, whatever...he wasn't going to be helpful.
Case Keenum just last year.  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 9:52 am : link
I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:

Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles
RE: RE: RE: Odds are against either Davis  
the mike : 5/4/2018 9:54 am : link
In comment 13954058 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954028 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13953947 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


or Lauletta becoming a successful NFL starting QB.

I hope it happens, but the concept of using a late(r) round pick on a QB and developing them to become a franchise QB is a fan fantasy.

For now at least.




They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.



Not to rehash the many other threads on this, but unless you're going to take some major liberties on this and count someone like Nick Foles, when has this model worked?


How can you ask this question when three of the last four super bowl winning quarterbacks have been Foles, Brady and Wilson??? It could not be more clear what Britt is saying and what the Giants appear to be doing. And it makes sense.
RE: Case Keenum just last year.  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 13954070 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:

Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles


But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?

Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.

I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"

It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.

Oh, I see, it's simple  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 10:04 am : link
Draft the next Brady, Foles (a career backup) or Wilson is your plan?

that makes complete sense.


RE: RE: Case Keenum just last year.  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 10:04 am : link
In comment 13954086 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954070 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I think three of the four guys in the Championship games this year fit the mold:

Keenum
Bortles (yes, Bortles was 3rd overall pick, but he does not perform to the level I would expect the 3rd overall pick to perform)
Foles



But Foles isn't even the starter on his team now after winning the SB. Why is that?

Keenum has been in the league for a long time. He's 30 already, he was 29 and on his 5th team before even sniffing success.

I think fans have too high expectations to feel like "oh sure, we'll draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round and use them to fit into our perfectly built system"

It just doesn't happen, as a rule, it's an exception and a risky strategy.


The point isn't that he's not the starter, the point is that the system made him look better than he was. It was the system, not Foles. Shurmer did sommething similar with Keenum.

As far as mid round prospects go, it's happening more and more lately actually.

Garapolo, Wilson, Cousins.... Teams are finding QB talent in the middle rounds.
I think you make some unfounded assumptions  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 10:10 am : link
if it was the system, how do you explain Foles 2013 season?

Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick.

We all know the story with Wilson, he was NOT a developmental QB.

Cousins hasn't won anything.

I think you will be disappointed.
If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided..  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 10:14 am : link
and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.

That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.
RE: RE: The Lauletta pick to me kind of clinches it  
ron mexico : 5/4/2018 10:19 am : link
In comment 13953927 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13953912 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


DG had a pretty high grade on the guy, and PS said go for it...I can win with him in the NFL.



Yeah, I mean... That's what I was advocating/arguing for in regards to what I wanted them to do.

Whether that continues to play out, who knows, guess we just have to wait and see. I hope he works out.

Think about this. In the QB room, there are two young, hungry players that are both coaches kids, and a future HOF vet to show them how to be professionals. I love this dynamic.

One is a 3rd round spread QB with a lot of physical talent that needs to sit and learn the pro game, and the other is a 4th round pro style QB that has the cerebral part down, but not the arm talent of the other.

I think it's a great dynamic. One of the best things about training camp this year is going to be the battle for number two on the depth chart. May the best man win.


until Jints Central brings in Jay Cutler to be the vet back up
RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided..  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 10:24 am : link
In comment 13954141 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.

That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.


Ok, we won't waste each others time.

Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.

Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.

And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?

RE: RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided..  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 13954161 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954141 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.

That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.



Ok, we won't waste each others time.

Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.

Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.

And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?


I didn't say that. What I said exactly:

Quote:
They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.


I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.

I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).
BBI  
lax counsel : 5/4/2018 10:55 am : link
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.

I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.
RE: BBI  
Britt in VA : 5/4/2018 10:57 am : link
In comment 13954224 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.

I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.


Being overrated and overpaid are two different entities.

I'd be happy with Matt Ryan as my QB. I would not be happy paying any QB 30 million a year. It's too much, it's out of control.
RE: Of course the cap..  
WillVAB : 5/4/2018 10:59 am : link
In comment 13953826 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
impacts decisions. This post is accurate:



Quote:


The cap does matter
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 10:48 pm : link : reply
And it does have a real impact. Some people here act like all you have to do is play a shell game with money and the team can keep whomever they want. Not true. Teams are forced to make tough decisions every year with players — Should we give player X a sizeable 2nd or 3rd contract despite his age? Is young, ascending player Y worth what he wants? Player Z has been hurt a lot, do we pay him? Position A has a lot of money tied up already, can we afford to pay another player at this spot? This decisions go on and on.



But what you have to understand is that the manipulations are there to keep the players you want, bring in new talent from the draft and FA and when to cut bait on a player that is getting too expensive to match his performance.

What I'm saying is that the cap restricts teams from building a superstar squad. It doesn't restrict them from fielding a capable starting unit and the good cap guys are able to lay out what is allocated, what's coming off the books and what room is there to spend. You are making decisions on 2nd and 3rd contracts. You have to balance bonuses with salary and know when to restructure guys. But rarely does the cap keep you from adding a player you truly want.

When you talk to GM's, the way people discuss the cap here, you'd think it is one of their key focuses. It isn't. They rely on their cap management people to guide those decisions. They know it is a system that they work around and a lot of them joke about the cap today.

Think about how onerous the cap is. Two years ago, with a QB taking up double-digit cap percentage, we were able to spend $200M on defensive players. We were able to resign JPP. And after this year, we can cut, restructure, extend and decide what to do with those players. We've signed them understanding the flexibility we will have to give them more money, releasing them or replacing them.

The cap factors into decisions, but it really doesn't prevent players from getting signed.


Of course a team can keep a guy they truly want, but there’s a trade off. If a team has to let 2 or 3 guys walk to pursue that one guy, it’s disingenuous to say the cap isn’t really a factor because they got their guy.

Your Giants example is hollow bc they didn’t have quality players on second contracts due to an extended run of shitty drafts. So of course the cap didn’t matter for the Giants at that point — Eli, DRC, and a couple of shitty LBs were the only guys making money that off-season.

The cap is a zero sum game. If you pay one or a handful of guys you have to save elsewhere.
I’ll be curious to see who is the first team to say  
UConn4523 : 5/4/2018 11:36 am : link
“Fuck it I’ve had enough, I’m not lying this guy” when it comes to QBs. The Skins kinda did it but they initially wanted Cousins long term, a deal didn’t get done, then there were sour grapes and tried trading him, etc. also, I think everyone knew he wasn’t a franchise altering QB so I don’t really count them.

It’s going to happen sooner or later.
Paying  
UConn4523 : 5/4/2018 11:37 am : link
*
The cap..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/4/2018 11:37 am : link
is high enough that it is forgiving.

That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.

The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.
Almost every quality player  
WillVAB : 5/4/2018 11:51 am : link
On the Giants right now was acquired because of cap issues/decisions made by other teams. The Giants got Jenkins because the Rams chose to keep Trumaine Johnson instead. They got Snacks because the Jets chose to keep Richardson. They got Vernon because Miami couldn’t give him the same type of deal, and Suh’s money surely impacted that process. They were able to trade for Ogletree because the Rams needed salary cap relief. They got Solder because the Pats didn’t want to offer him the same deal.
As I’ve opined from time to time, the market is the  
Big Blue '56 : 5/4/2018 11:55 am : link
market and why ostensibly outrageous contracts don’t really bother me.

That said, insofar as QB contracts are concerned, I do not believe any non-winning SB QBs should get Cousins type guarantees, THAT’S outrageous imo.

But it is what it is
RE: The cap..  
Go Terps : 5/4/2018 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13954279 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is high enough that it is forgiving.

That's the point many seem to forget. It isn't the 90's anymore.

The "savings" you are alluding to have been accomplished by cap experts, increasingly more adept each year. The cap analytics are so advanced that teams going over the cap have little excuse.


No one is talking about accidentally going over the cap, or even getting caught in cap hell. That's an angle you keep injecting into other people's arguments (including mine) that no one else is bringing up.
RE: RE: RE: If you're going to deny all of the legitimate examples I've provided..  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13954174 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13954161 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13954141 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


and just refuse to acknowledge anything I've said, I don't see the value in continuing to name examples. Waste of time.

That's my opinion. So far, the Giants actions reflect they may be going in a similar direction. We'll see.



Ok, we won't waste each others time.

Your plan for filling QB is to try and draft the next Brady or Cousins.

Mine is more traditional, you need to use a high pick.

And when you look at the salaries of Cousins and Brady now, it kind of also limits your approach to needing to be successful in the players first 4 years so they don't reach a second contract or what are you gaining?




I didn't say that. What I said exactly:



Quote:


They don't need to be a "franchise" QB. Just a smart, athletic one that can operate within the system.



I did not say they needed to be Brady or Cousins. In fact, I haven't mentioned Brady at all.

I cited Cousins because he was a talented mid round QB that was able be a starter (interestingly taken in the same draft by the same team as the highly touted second overall pick, but I digress).


Another poster, in agreement with your point, mentioned Brady and Wilson - which is why I mentioned Brady.

I don't view Kirk Cousins as the ideal QB, we just have different perspectives.

I'll take my shot at a Peyton Manning, Carson Wentz, Ryan, Eli, Rivers, even a Cam Newton or Andrew Luck or Jared Goff, etc. before putting my franchise future in the hands of Kirk Cousins.

And clearly the Redskins didn't expect Cousins to become what he did, why trade up so much for RG3 if that were the case?

Clearly the Eagles didn't expect Foles to lead them to a SB, he was kind of an afterthought, signed to be a backup.

The only QB I feel like meets the "draft and develop" model in the past 15 years was Tony Romo.

And you're not looking for a franchise QB, but if there is any position on the field that makes sense to keep some stability it's QB IMO.

Let's say your model works and you find a QB, why would you want to repeat that every 4/5 years? Odds are you'll miss next time (and the model won't work to begin with).

Lastly, I hope one of Webb or Lauletta winds up the next Eli or even better the next Aaron Rodgers, but I doubt anyone really expects that and I'd wager the Giants wind up using a high draft pick on a QB to replace Eli.
They had a 25 pt lead in the 3rd qtr of the super bowl  
Knee of Theismann : 5/4/2018 3:01 pm : link
Go look it up, like 999 of 1000 times they win that game. The Pats coming back was a fluke (though I give the Pats and Brady COMPLETE credit for making it happen), those things just don't happen and we may never see it again.

Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).
RE: BBI  
the mike : 5/4/2018 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13954224 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Is incredible. Matt Ryan is overrated? Have any of you bothered to look at statistics since 2011? Matt Ryan has been in the top 10 if not top 5 every year since 2011. He's averaged 27 td and 12 ints a year outside of his rookie year. And he's won playoff games at home and on the road and was awful coaching decisions away from a sb title. The people saying this are the same people saying Eli is great and just needs a hall of fame at every position to be successful.

I know we're all big Giants fans, but let's be a little new objective. Matt Ryan is one of the top 5-8 qbs in the league.


To be the highest paid quarterback, you need to produce when it counts.

Any objective way of looking at it, Eli is better in this regard than Ryan: 1) Manning is 8-4 vs Ryan's 4-6 in the post season; 2) in the only post season game in which they faced each other, during the 2011 playoffs, the Giants won by a score of 24-2 and Eli utterly dominated Ryan in yards (270-183), TDs (3-0) and QBR (129-71); and 3) on the most important play in both of their careers, Eli avoided the sack and made the pass to Tyree leading to the greatest upset win in Super Bowl XLII and Ryan took the sack in Super Bowl LI which led to the greatest comeback loss in NFL history.

Ryan may be a good regular season quarterback, but when it matters, Eli has been and continues to be by far the superior player.

Ryan is so outrageously overpaid it is comical. And more than anyone else, his very own teammates know this. Which is why the Falcons will grossly underachieve this year.
RE: They had a 25 pt lead in the 3rd qtr of the super bowl  
the mike : 5/4/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13954527 Knee of Theismann said:
Quote:
Go look it up, like 999 of 1000 times they win that game. The Pats coming back was a fluke (though I give the Pats and Brady COMPLETE credit for making it happen), those things just don't happen and we may never see it again.

Matt Ryan essentially won the super bowl that year, save for a complete choke job by the ENTIRE team (but like 70% the coaching staff). He's won in big spots and he has led big drives at key moments. He is a winner and he could very well win that super bowl one day (many of the all-time greats have only won one and some have never won one, it's hard to do and also takes some luck).


The Falcons lost that game BECAUSE Ryan took that sack. Otherwise they win that game. He may have had a good game until that point, but his lack of judgement at such a vital moment is simply inexcusable. And rewarding that kind of ineptitude to the tune of the highest contract in NFL history is an atrocious lack of judgement by Arthur Blank.
Matt Ryan  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 3:24 pm : link
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?

RE: Matt Ryan  
Big Blue '56 : 5/4/2018 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?


Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?
RE: Matt Ryan  
the mike : 5/4/2018 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?


I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...

It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.
RE: RE: Matt Ryan  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 4:05 pm : link
In comment 13954561 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?




Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?


Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.
RE: RE: RE: Matt Ryan  
Big Blue '56 : 5/4/2018 4:07 pm : link
In comment 13954599 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954561 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?




Except doesn’t an experience QB have the option to audible out of a called play?



Not sure, I don't think all QB's do. Maybe they do.


Not sure either. I just assumed he had that permission given his experience
RE: RE: Matt Ryan  
pjcas18 : 5/4/2018 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13954592 the mike said:
Quote:
In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?




I completely agree that the primary fault lies with head coach Quinn and OC Shanahan - hard to see how the players on that team can ever trust a head coach whose judgment is so outrageously bad. But the killer play on that drive was the sack on second down that not only took them out of field goal range, but it forced them to pass again on third down leading first to the holding penalty and then to an errant pass that again stopped the clock. So at the most important moment of the game, Ryan's lack of judgement and execution led to the Patriots winning that game...

It may be unfair because he had a good game prior to that point, but to say that Ryan is unscathed because Quinn and Shanahan were terrible is just not accurate.


Agree Ryan deserves some blame, but he's probably 4th or 5th on the list.

And I don't think the sack was the coup de grace.

that would have been a 52 yard FG after the sack if they didn't pick up a yard on 3rd down (after ideally running the ball), practically automatic for Bryant.

The holding penalty on 3rd down was the real killer.
RE: Matt Ryan  
Knee of Theismann : 5/4/2018 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13954555 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
did not call the plays - this has been confirmed - and he had no time at all on that sack, almost anything other than a sack would have been grounding.

If you want to blame anyone blame Shanahan for the Falcons debacle.

1st and 10 at the Patriots 22 with 4:00 left a FG pretty much clinches the game, and you run once and pass the ball three times - resulting in a sack, holding penalty, and an incompletion and you want to blame Ryan?


Exactly. Run the ball three times, kick the FG, and Matt Ryan and 99.99% chance the Falcons hoist the Lombardi trophy. Simple as that.
meant to say  
Knee of Theismann : 5/4/2018 4:12 pm : link
99.99% chance Matt Ryan and the Falcons hoist the trophy***
I am with Knee on this  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 4:53 pm : link
You can debate the money in general to QBs, but not that Matt Ryan is deserving of it.

He was a rookie of the year, an MVP, has been a Pro Bowler 4 times, has taken his team to playoffs 6 of his 10 years when the team only made the playoffs 5 of the previous 43 years.

You want to go look at stupid QB contracts, go look at Cousins or Jimmy G's...not Ryan's.
Back to the Corner