I don't know if this is objective fact, especially on a Giants board with most people old enough to remember the 86 Giants, but why is the 86 Giants D not regarded as highly as the 85 Bears D? And is it actually not as good? If it isn't as good, why? The 86 Giants had probably the best defensive player ever and probably the best defensive coach ever. Were the 85 Bears deeper?
Giants only did it every few games...
They just dominated games and were real tough to do anything against.
I do believe Ryan's 46 Defense was a big part of that. No question they had some great players but that D was fairly new at the time and teams had trouble figuring it out and scheming against it.
Mix in some great players and aggressive play calling and it was the perfect recipe for an All Time great D.
The Giants 86 D was another great one but I don't think they were as great as that Bear D. Close, but just a tad below IMO.
I think the difference was a game changing scheme that the idiot Buddy Ryan developed. Of course the league caught up with it, like it does with everything. I believe the players were roughly equal. The Giants had the superior LB's and the Bears had the better DL. The Bears were a better, more dominant D, but because of the scheme.
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I think the difference was a game changing scheme that the idiot Buddy Ryan developed. Of course the league caught up with it, like it does with everything. I believe the players were roughly equal. The Giants had the superior LB's and the Bears had the better DL. The Bears were a better, more dominant D, but because of the scheme.
Interesting, thanks. I do find it interesting that Buddy Ryan had a more innovative scheme the Belichick.
As a complete unit, 85 Bear D was perfect including Buddy Ryan's system.
But the '86 Bears allowed 11.7. That is the forgotten great D. And that included giving up 31 on opening day that year to Cleveland.
The '85 Bears did score 6 defensive TDs - '86 scored 2 - so they definitely had more style points. Both D's had over 60 sacks.
But the '86 Bears allowed 11.7. That is the forgotten great D. And that included giving up 31 on opening day that year to Cleveland.
Not forgotten by Richard Dent. Bitter many years after the fact about the QB decisions Ditka made after Jim McMahon was knocked out of the '86 season and playoffs by Charles Martin's infamous cheap shot.
QB may be just one position but it's a rather important one.
Dent vs Ditka - ( New Window )
If their starting QB had not gotten hurt they would have played at the Giants in the NFC championship game. I remember being disapointed when the Redskins beat the Bears since everyone wanted a rematch.
86 giants beat them. There were gusting winds that day. You can find videos of it. You have to know how to play in that. The winds were so strong that Sean Landetta (the punter) is remembered with having one of the best playoff punting performances ever. You have to know how to do that.
Its really a shame that the Redskins won. Would have been 2, 14-2 teams in the NFC championship game. Lawrence Taylor MVP year, Walter Payton, Bears had 2 HoF defensive players and another linebacker who was later Defensive Player of the Year. Giants had LT/Carson/Banks and others. Bavarro and Joe Morris's best season.
It would have been very interesting how the Giants would have game planned. The bears defense basically played a 4-4 stack with 8 men in the box. 2 linebackers on the same side. This was before teams figured out how to do shotgun and run guys on slants to get behind them. This is why it does not work today. Giants defense would have totally shutdown bears offense.
In 1985, bears won 21-0. It was closer than that. Landetta totally whiffed on a punt in the endzone (he just missed it, you can find a video). That was a touchdown. Plus the giants gave up a few big plays. Giants defense was designed to never give up big players.
Bears were the better team, but the Giants played them the best of any team other than the Dolphins and the Dophins had them at home. The offense couldn't do anything.
plus LT had an MVP season. Giants beat the 86 Bears even if they had McMahon. McMahon probably would not have finished the game. The giants knocked 9 straight QBs out of the game. Only QB to survive was John Elway.
The 86 Giants didn't have a great secondary - case in point, Mark Collins as a rookie was already the best DB of the bunch by like Week 10. But as far as a front 7 - from a depth standpoint, the Giants win that hands down. And as for the LBs - Giants were a 3-4 and the Bears a 4-3. Throw out Gary Reasons for a second an you get:
Taylor vs. Marshall - EDGE: LT (not even close)
Banks vs. Wilson - EDGE Banks (Banks was a complete LB)
Carson vs. Singletary - PUSH. Both HOF, Leaders in the middle. Always ask - as great aas Mike Singletary was (and he was great) - what did do all that better than Harry? Dr. Z - one of the great football writers of all-time before bloggers thought they knew it all, called Harry the BEST goal-line defender ever. said he had the best instincts around the goa line he had ever seen.
And what about the great 49er offense of the 80s? Montana, Rice, Craig, Taylor - revolutionary for that era. Two playoff games in 85 and 86 against the Giants - they scored a TOTAL of 6 points.
Agreed. '85 Bears were best of all time followed by the'76 Steelers and '00 Ravens... LT was the greatest defensive player of all time, but the '86 Giants Defense is generally not included as a top ten defense in most rankings.
The first memory that comes to my mind when I think of the '85 Bears is our playoff loss in Chicago. With Sean Landetta whiffing on a punt in the swirling frigid winds of Soldier Field... and the Giants getting shut out with virtually zero yards from scrimmage.
But I will say this - the two greatest defensive efforts in Super Bowl history were delivered by two massive underdog Giant teams, first in super bowl XXV against the offensive juggernaut Bills... And second of course, super bowl XLII against the undefeated Patriots... The '85 Bears beat a very mediocre Patriots team in one of the most one-sided games in super bowl history...
90 worked, so, great, but it felt like a hack, a needed hack, but still a hack, to institute the ' clobber the WR.'
Whereas clobber the QB has a more traditional or honorable thing about it maybe.
$64,000.00 dollar question right there. That scheme that Ryan came up with (86?) really had never been seen before(?) - but, the Bears definitely had some great players. And, as good as the D was they couldn't get back to the NFC Championship game the next year (lost to the Redskins). The OC's in the league only needed 1 season to figure his defense out. That is a hard question ... : )
Unless Landeta kicked the crap out of the ball and the bears returner ran back to his own 1 and handed us the ball, we weren't winning that game.
But I have to say that the Bears 85 D was better than the Giants 86 D ... but imo that is solely because of the Bears coach and defensive scheme ... I think the 86 Giants had the better defensive talent - but I loved (LOVED) Buddy Ryan's scheme (even though he was a jackass)
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$64,000.00 dollar question right there. That scheme that Ryan came up with (86?) really had never been seen before(?) - but, the Bears definitely had some great players. And, as good as the D was they couldn't get back to the NFC Championship game the next year (lost to the Redskins). The OC's in the league only needed 1 season to figure his defense out. That is a hard question ... : )
was that jerry glanville's scheme or am I messing that up?
Also the Jets were 10-1 at that point. I was a bit young at the time but remember the playoff games vividly. I'm sure there had to be huge Subway Superbowl talk.
Unless Landeta kicked the crap out of the ball and the bears returner ran back to his own 1 and handed us the ball, we weren't winning that game.
+1.
Even though we were in it until the wiff, we really weren't 'in it'. It reminded me of the '63 Championship game against the Bears. Score wise we were in it, but YAs bloodied head picture was the same indicator as the wiff; in it but not.
First score was a Tom Flynn blocked punt for a TD! Not only did the Giants have the lead - what a great redemptive omen!
Downhill from there, though. DRUBBED 31-19.
Until the playoff run of 1990, Bears had the Giants number.
Bears played in one of the weakest divisions in football at the time. The old NFC Central - Packers, Lions and Buccaneers were laughably bad.
Agreed. Just like the Giants spent most of their offseason celebrating and writing books after our 1st Super Bowl win.
Hard to argue the 86 Giants D was better than the 85 Bears D, but I’d submit the 86 Giants had the best single season linebacker crew of all time. Banks and LT in their prime, HoF Carson still playing great, plus a stud in Reasons. Loaded with depth too with rookie Pepper and guys like Headen and Hunt.
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In comment 13953416 BestFeature said:
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I think the difference was a game changing scheme that the idiot Buddy Ryan developed. Of course the league caught up with it, like it does with everything. I believe the players were roughly equal. The Giants had the superior LB's and the Bears had the better DL. The Bears were a better, more dominant D, but because of the scheme.
Interesting, thanks. I do find it interesting that Buddy Ryan had a more innovative scheme the Belichick.
Belichick wasn't really Belichick yet. He was a 33 yr old in his first season (I believe) as DC. You can't compare him to now. Buddy Ryan was like 200 years old even then.
The Giants meanwhile had a brutal schedule. They faced Washington twice (who won 12 games in 1986). Had to play a stretch vs. Denver (who went to the Super Bowl) and then on the road on a Monday Night vs. the Niners and then on the road the next week in Washington. Literally the 3 teams they had to beat to win the championship...and the Giants won them all. Chicago never had that kind of challenge.
After that 2nd Washington game, the Giants defense got stronger. You can count on one hand how many times a Bill Walsh offense got demolished after the Montana run began. Madden himself said during the Washington NFC Championship shutout that he thought the Bears 1985 defense was the best he ever saw. But the way the 1986 Giants defense was playing, considering the offensive firepower of the 49ers and Redskins, was actually better.
Bottom line, the 1986 Giants defense in their playoff run, at their height was better than the Bears in 1985. But the Bears end to end in 1985 was the best overall.
And I believe it was right in the middle ("the mist" as some would say, hehehe, or midst)
Of this context that the Knee of Thiesman Incident took place.
Context was everything for that occurance.
The Redskins were a powerhouse and Schroeder actually made their offense stronger than it had been in years. Theismann was at the end of his career when LT officially ended it. Riggins had slowed down. The Skins had Schroeder, George Rogers, and a slew of USFL castoffs who were all damn good (Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders, and Kelvin Bryant). Clark put up over 200 yards receiving in the first Giants game on the Monday Night of the Mets Game 7 in the World Series.
People also forget, the Cowboys were 6-2 when they faced the Giants in that second game. Herschel had supplanted an aging Dorsett. They were right there with the Giants and Redskins at the top of the NFC East. Once Banks broke Danny White's wrist, the roof finally fell in on the Cowboys and that pretty much ended the Tom Landry reign and set up the Jimmy Johnson era as they lost 7 of their last 8 games.
Even the lowly Cardinals had a solid offensive team, with Neil Lomax, Roy Green and JT Smith.
It was a more brutal era of football as well.
But regardless, you felt that LT and the front 7 would handle it.
And at very least Simms was implacable and had that cementicious noggin.
If you go back and watch the Redskins/Bears game in 1986 and saw how much Flutie struggled and Walter Payton, bless his heart, had struggled down the stretch and was terrible in the playoff loss, ran for only 38 yards and had a key fumble. The Bears hadn't yet realized that Neal Anderson was the right man for the job.
The Bears offense completely bogged down, and that was at home. If you put the Bears offense in those same conditions that the Redskins got, with zero passing threat from Flutie and a struggling Payton, they would have gotten shut out and might not have crossed midfield the entire game. That 1986 Bears offense vs. the 1986 Giants defense would have been possible the biggest mismatch of any in the playoffs at that time. The Bears offense was probably the worst one of all the playoff teams. And the Giants defense was the best. They would have killed Flutie, similar to Schroeder, who actually collapsed as the NFC Championship Game ended on the sidelines from the beating he took.