Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Why Are the Giants Still Building Around Eli?

DanMetroMan : 5/4/2018 3:17 pm
Quote:
Then, there were the numbers. Manning’s season in box score terms was below average, with noticeable dips in yards, touchdowns, yards per attempt, yards per completion, passer rating and total QBR. His approximate value, as calculated by Pro Football Reference, tied the lowest mark of his career (2013).

A deeper look, though, complicates the idea that Manning is declining. Pro Football Focus noted that he was still an elite passer when it comes to tight-window passes, putting him fourth in the league, comfortably alongside Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Carson Wentz and Drew Brees.

He remains an average quarterback against pressure and had one of the best red-zone seasons of his career in 2017. Nearly 70% of the time, his passes are out in under 2.5 seconds which, according to PFF, is a good 10% better than the rest of the NFL.

Then, there was this: Manning had 43 dropped passes on catchable balls last year. For perspective, Ben Roethlisberger had 28, Drew Brees had 20 and Carson Wentz had 21.

The Giants, despite being 22nd in average rushing yards per attempt, ran five percent more play action passes than they did a year before to a disastrous result.

Despite the clamoring for a safe stashed quarterback at No. 2, it wouldn’t be hard to imagine Dave Gettleman and Shurmur coming to the following conclusion: A more original play-calling script and increased presence in the backfield would put the team—at least offensively—on the same boat as other upper-tier franchises with a legitimate chance of reaching the playoffs.

Link - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: And we were kind of guaranteed to get one of the best players  
Mad Mike : 5/4/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13954681 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
in the draft no matter whom we selected so that really cannot be the answer...

Don't ever quit man, you're really showering yourself in glory.
RE: Some analysts...  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13954682 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
have Barkley rated the top back in the past decade or longer.


Yes, i read the papers.

Maybe just negligence as they did go Lauletta in the 3rd as an attempt to address the position. I will soften it.
RE: RE: They’re building around Eli, or Webb, or Kyle  
old man : 5/4/2018 5:46 pm : link
In comment 13954568 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954558 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


or whomever ultimately leads them. They are correctly putting pieces in place no matter who leads them. For now, it’s Eli



+1


+2. They are rebuilding Giants football: Run the ball, stop the run.
Eli ran the greatest Giants offense I seen  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/4/2018 5:58 pm : link
In 2008. Eficcient, methodically marching down the field. And all he required was an oline built around a 2nd round pick, a 4th and 7th round rb, a 7th round TE, and a 2nd round and FA WR.
Who’s rebuilding in the NFL?  
trueblueinpw : 5/4/2018 5:59 pm : link
Aside from the Browns, is there any team in the NFL rebuilding? I don’t think any GMs in the league have 5 year plans. 2 years maybe. Remember also, Eli’s not the only piece of the puzzle. Giants have OBJ, EE, Shep, Barks, a new FA OT in Solder, they have LC and OV and Jackrabbit on the D, brought in Ogletree. I mean, the cupboard isn’t exactly empty so what would a “rebuild” even look like?
The key word here is " still"  
tomjgiant : 5/4/2018 5:59 pm : link
The previous GM failed in his attempts to build an adequate
team around Eli, mostly the OL.So now the new regime has to
do the job,and it looks like they are doing a good job.Every team builds around the franchise QB(BTW).
RE: RE: Agreed.  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/4/2018 6:05 pm : link
In comment 13954613 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 13954594 Knee of Theismann said:


Quote:


He has:

-An NFL top-3 receiver who will be healthy

-A WR2 who has proven to be productive and is going into his 3rd year, which is historically a player's "breakout" year

-A 240 lb 2nd year TE who runs a 4.4 40 almost set the record for production by a rookie TE last year.

-The most hyped rookie RB to come into the pros since Adrian Peterson, known as a threat in the running and passing game, and is 235 lb and can actually pass-block.

-The highest paid LT in the league

-A first-round grade mauling guard

-Another guard who started on the AFC championship game Jaguars last year, who had one of the best running attacks in football.

-His starting center from last year who seemed to improve over the season

...

Literally RT is the only hole left. And that's not enough of an excuse. Get it done, Eli.




You are completely overstating the offensive line. Brett Jones is not a guy you want starting full time. The Giants showed interest in replacing him this offseason.

RT is a huge question mark as you said.

Omameh is better than the crap we've had here, but that's a low bar. He has bounced around the league and was ultimately replaced by the Jags. He's limited in pass pro.

I like Hernandez, but relying on a rookie lineman to be a cornerstone is not good. His weaknesses are in pass pro as well.

As much promise as Hernandez and Solder bring, we could conceivably be worse as a unit than last year.


I think PFF rated Hernandez one of the best pass protectors. They graded him around 20th best player in the draft.
RE: And we were kind of guaranteed to get one of the best players  
Bill L : 5/4/2018 6:28 pm : link
In comment 13954681 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
in the draft no matter whom we selected so that really cannot be the answer...
Not really. We could have picked a QB and gone just for a position. It was a viable option for some fans, although not management.
Yes, really. Are you suggesting those QBs were not some of the  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 6:33 pm : link
best players in the draft? I hope not because the several other teams that picked them early in Rd 1 disagree.
RE: They’re building around Eli, or Webb, or Kyle  
rocco8112 : 5/4/2018 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13954558 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
or whomever ultimately leads them. They are correctly putting pieces in place no matter who leads them. For now, it’s Eli


This makes sense to me as well. As far as Eli, I think he can still play. I base it on three things.

One, Engram's rookie season production. I am not certain on the receiving stats, but I know it was upper echelon for TE'S and he was a rookie. This tells me Eli can still do what he has done for over a decade, put the ball on a playmaker and let him produce. If was was toast I don't if that would be the case.

Second, is the last three home games. I thought Eli and the Offense looked better. Against the Cowboys there were some critical drops that would have made things different, the Eagle game might have been his best of the season, and the Redskin game which they won and I believe there was at least one key drop, and for a TD.

Everyone focuses on the Cardinal disaster, but that was a dead team playing out the string with an interim coach and on the other side of the country.

Finally, McAdoo, since Eli has been the starter, (except 2013) the Giants have had a productive offense, most seasons carried by the passing game. The collapse of this passing game and productive offensive era coincided with the disaster that was McAdoo. Everyone knows now he was a joke of a hire.

I enjoyed the article, thanks for posting.


RE: Yes, really. Are you suggesting those QBs were not some of the  
Bill L : 5/4/2018 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13954744 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
best players in the draft? I hope not because the several other teams that picked them early in Rd 1 disagree.
i am and, we’ve spent months establishing that talent is irrelevant when it comes to QB. The other teams are irrelevant because you’ve already spent the time making the case that they pick them because they’re QB’s.
What? That's nuts to say these QBs  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 6:48 pm : link
weren't some of the best available players in the draft.

nuts...
Talent is irrelevant when it comes to QB  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 6:49 pm : link
??
RE: The Giants invested a high 3rd rounder and a high 4th rounder in QBs  
NYG07 : 5/4/2018 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13954571 Knee of Theismann said:
Quote:
the past 2 drafts. And they brought in a coach who is known for developing and getting the most out of QBs.

Here's the plan for the future: we're doubling down on Eli, but if he can't do it in the next two years, then he's gone...

But here's the thing. If that's the case, in 2020, Eli's salary will be off the books, the dead cap money from bad decisions of the Reese era will be gone, and the building pieces DG and PS put in in 2018 and 2019 will have had a couple years of experience and getting settled into the team/system.

THEN, with freed-up cap space, we will be in a position to sign even more talent and have a very very strong roster in 2020, 2021, and 2022. The hope at that point will be that either Lauletta or Webb, on a 3rd/4th round rookie QB salary, will be able to do just enough to carry that very talented team to victories and hopefully a championship.

Does this theory make sense to anyone else besides me, by the way?


Eli playing two more years destroys the biggest advantage in the NFL of having a QB on a cheap rookie contract. If the Giants start 2-5 this year, it is time to see Webb.
Ahhhh the myth of the  
JCin332 : 5/4/2018 7:12 pm : link
alive and well on BBI...kind of like the "Brady took less money" myth...
"rookie QB contract..."  
JCin332 : 5/4/2018 7:13 pm : link
..
The truth is  
Jay on the Island : 5/4/2018 7:19 pm : link
Eli has not had a good running game or offensive line since 2010. Eli has obviously never had a RB close to as talented as Barkley. While I wanted to draft Darnold or Rosen I am excited to see what Eli does with a great offensive coach in Shurmur, an improved offensive line, and a great running game.
RE:  
Knee of Theismann : 5/4/2018 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13954785 JCin332 said:
Quote:
..


JCin, what do you mean myth? Quarterbacks don't make a ton of money their first 4-5 years in the league compared to what the vets make, especially if drafted in the 3rd or 4th round....
RE: RE: And we were kind of guaranteed to get one of the best players  
BSIMatt : 5/4/2018 7:48 pm : link
In comment 13954741 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13954681 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


in the draft no matter whom we selected so that really cannot be the answer...

Not really. We could have picked a QB and gone just for a position. It was a viable option for some fans, although not management.


Maybe it was just a coincidence but the teams that picked those QBs were train wrecks at the quarterback position. Cleveland and the Jets? Desperate, quarterback starved teams, there literally was no plan b, it was quarterback or bust.
Of course teams picking QB are picking for position  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 8:05 pm : link
but to portray that those guys taken that high in the draft are not some of the most talented, valuable players is ridiculous...
Wow,  
oldog : 5/4/2018 8:15 pm : link
what obviousness backed up with stupidly quarreling quibbling nonsense.
the play action was bad last year  
Vanzetti : 5/4/2018 8:19 pm : link
Opposing defenses had zero fear of Giants running game, so the play action did n not freeze them. Just gave them more time to get to the QB.
More Trashing The Barkley Pick?  
TheVette : 5/4/2018 8:54 pm : link
Some people just will not let it go. For months - all we heard was Rosen, Rosen, Rosen - Fracnhise QB - havw to take him at #2. So he ended being the 4th QB taken, and at his first chance came off like the dickhead many pegged him to be. You can get away with that in Phoenix - but with the Giants? No way.
Eli developed a reputation for throwing UNCATCHABLE High Balls  
Elite Mobster #32 : 5/4/2018 9:11 pm : link
Catchable balls is debatable. He got his entire receiving core injured with his high passes. It was ridiculous at one point.
RE: Eli developed a reputation for throwing UNCATCHABLE High Balls  
BigBlue4You09 : 5/4/2018 9:13 pm : link
In comment 13954931 Elite Mobster #32 said:
Quote:
Catchable balls is debatable. He got his entire receiving core injured with his high passes. It was ridiculous at one point.


This never happened.
RE: RE: Eli developed a reputation for throwing UNCATCHABLE High Balls  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13954933 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
In comment 13954931 Elite Mobster #32 said:


Quote:


Catchable balls is debatable. He got his entire receiving core injured with his high passes. It was ridiculous at one point.



This never happened.


Agree. It wasn't the entire group...
RE: Yes, really. Are you suggesting those QBs were not some of the  
BigBlueShock : 5/4/2018 9:23 pm : link
In comment 13954744 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
best players in the draft? I hope not because the several other teams that picked them early in Rd 1 disagree.

Ah yes, let’s use the Jets and the Browns as our litmus test for intelligence. Oh, and those Buffalo Bills sure are an organization we should all strive to be.

The Broncos who have had a bit more success than those dumpster fires decided to pass on a QB too, even though that is argutheir biggest weakness...
RE: No I like Barkley, great player and pick  
djm : 5/4/2018 9:34 pm : link
In comment 13954678 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
But its gross negligence...


You’re gross
RE: RE: Yes, really. Are you suggesting those QBs were not some of the  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 10:04 pm : link
In comment 13954942 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13954744 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


best players in the draft? I hope not because the several other teams that picked them early in Rd 1 disagree.


Ah yes, let’s use the Jets and the Browns as our litmus test for intelligence. Oh, and those Buffalo Bills sure are an organization we should all strive to be.

The Broncos who have had a bit more success than those dumpster fires decided to pass on a QB too, even though that is argutheir biggest weakness...


Shock...I thought we were tight?

Dump on the history or intelligence of any team you want, thats not the point. 4 QBs went in the top 10 so questioning whether those players weren't some of the most valuable guys in a 200+ player draft is being brain-dead.
Valuable is not the same as talent  
Bill L : 5/4/2018 10:10 pm : link
We’ve already established listed, through numerous threads, that Tim Couch or Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf are preferable players to Jim Brown or Barry Sanders. There is no talent factor to the QBs; they are just QBs. Ability is not a variable in the equation. So “best” is not the same as “desireable”. That’s the dogma.
RE: RE: No I like Barkley, great player and pick  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 10:15 pm : link
In comment 13954957 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13954678 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


But its gross negligence...



You’re gross


oh my...
RE: Valuable is not the same as talent  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 10:19 pm : link
In comment 13955006 Bill L said:
Quote:
We’ve already established listed, through numerous threads, that Tim Couch or Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf are preferable players to Jim Brown or Barry Sanders. There is no talent factor to the QBs; they are just QBs. Ability is not a variable in the equation. So “best” is not the same as “desireable”. That’s the dogma.


How about Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb...they were jsut chosen because of the position the played...no talent or value there in your dogma?
Lets just stop on this one  
Jimmy Googs : 5/4/2018 10:25 pm : link
I don't think you wrote what you really meant so lets end it at that...ok?
RE: I think Barkley was picked beyond Eli..  
giantstock : 5/4/2018 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13954551 Sean said:
Quote:
He should help the next QB tremendously. NYG is building the best roster they can whether it’s Eli, Webb/Lauletta or someone else.

I do think if we moved on from Eli, he would do very well for another team for 2-3 years. Why rush it? Is Sam Darnold going to be that much better than Eli? The next QB is 90% going to be worse than Eli.

As shitty as last year was, Eli still made some throws that the majority of QB’s cannot make.


1-- Helping the next Qb tremendously is one thing. But the point you are missing imo is that he doesn't help bad QB's enough to make them good enough. Along with the Qb's won't help him. Even great players need help.

2--- You rush it because some of us think you're wrong that he doesn't have quality years left. If we're right, and you don't have a quality QB then you're in the crapper for a lot more than 5 years. If you have to overpay for FA or give up a ton of picks, that is NOT good.

3-- Jimmy Johnson once made a great comment about Randall Cunningham. Johnson was unimpressed with him while the media played up his big play capability. JJ said "I don't evaluate a QB by the plays he makes rather the plays he doesn't make."
RE: Agreed.  
giantstock : 5/4/2018 10:37 pm : link
In comment 13954594 Knee of Theismann said:
Quote:
He has:

-An NFL top-3 receiver who will be healthy

-A WR2 who has proven to be productive and is going into his 3rd year, which is historically a player's "breakout" year

-A 240 lb 2nd year TE who runs a 4.4 40 almost set the record for production by a rookie TE last year.

-The most hyped rookie RB to come into the pros since Adrian Peterson, known as a threat in the running and passing game, and is 235 lb and can actually pass-block.

-The highest paid LT in the league

-A first-round grade mauling guard

-Another guard who started on the AFC championship game Jaguars last year, who had one of the best running attacks in football.

-His starting center from last year who seemed to improve over the season

...

Literally RT is the only hole left. And that's not enough of an excuse. Get it done, Eli.


and yet with all of this the G-Men are projected to win 6-7 games. Why do you think that is? Are you going to cleanup in Vegas?
The Giants are building a FOUNDATION ....  
Manny in CA : 5/5/2018 12:10 am : link

For winning, Eli's being here is an incidental fact (a good one, I still think).

You need a run offense that the enemy respects - the KEY to a solid passing game.
Unless things dramatically improve .... quickly -  
short lease : 5/5/2018 1:26 am : link
they will be building for Lauletta/Webb (or a future trade up to get a QB) whether they like it (or know it) or not.
RE: RE: RE: And we were kind of guaranteed to get one of the best players  
chopperhatch : 5/5/2018 1:43 am : link
In comment 13954824 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
In comment 13954741 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13954681 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


in the draft no matter whom we selected so that really cannot be the answer...

Not really. We could have picked a QB and gone just for a position. It was a viable option for some fans, although not management.



Maybe it was just a coincidence but the teams that picked those QBs were train wrecks at the quarterback position. Cleveland and the Jets? Desperate, quarterback starved teams, there literally was no plan b, it was quarterback or bust.


This, is really IT. Add the Bills and Cards (while having success, they have NOT had consistency regarding health of Palmer) to the list. Teams will ignore warts on QBs to try and shoot the moon. Notice that not one of these teams have drafted a successful NFL QB in 20 years (Jake Plummer and his success in AZ is debatable IMHO). The fact that they are dying for a QB that can stay under center longer than 4 years and be successful is a factor that cannot be underestimated. It is part of why I was so adamant about the diff situation of the Jets drafting Darnold vs the Giants. The pressure for Darnold to succeed with NYJ will be enormous.

When it comes to winning now, Eli has shown enough to be the better ootion despite the issues on the OL and the injuries at WR.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/5/2018 2:13 am : link
Just because Eli is the QB doesn't necessarily mean we're building the entire team around him.

One of the most common things I keep seeing is that people think Barkley means the entire future of the team is on Eli's shoulders - which I don't really understand.

Barkley is still going to be here after Eli retires barring some disastrous David Wilson-esque scenario.

Beyond that - if the Giants have been building "around Eli" at all recently, they've done a really bad job. He's had a lot of crappy running backs since Jacobs and Bradshaw left, he's had a lot of poor protection, he's had one elite WR since 2014 but little else in terms of reliable weapons.

I often have a hard time with this - because I'm not unwilling to admit that Eli has played poorly in recent years. But at the same time - how many QB's would have succeeded in similar circumstances? I just don't see it.

I still believe in this guy if we can protect him and give him a running game. I think the Giants are smart not to give up on him just yet. I'd rather know that Eli is cooked for sure before guessing.

I really do think Pat Shurmur can be exactly what Eli needs. I wouldn't write #10 off just yet.
RE: RE: RE: Yes, really. Are you suggesting those QBs were not some of the  
BigBlueShock : 5/5/2018 7:42 am : link
In comment 13954998 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13954942 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13954744 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


best players in the draft? I hope not because the several other teams that picked them early in Rd 1 disagree.


Ah yes, let’s use the Jets and the Browns as our litmus test for intelligence. Oh, and those Buffalo Bills sure are an organization we should all strive to be.

The Broncos who have had a bit more success than those dumpster fires decided to pass on a QB too, even though that is argutheir biggest weakness...



Shock...I thought we were tight?

Dump on the history or intelligence of any team you want, thats not the point. 4 QBs went in the top 10 so questioning whether those players weren't some of the most valuable guys in a 200+ player draft is being brain-dead.

Oh I know, and for the record, I’d have preferred Darnold. I just think it’s somewhat funny that people keep bringing up how many QBs were taken but when we take a look at the teams that took them, they are some of the worst decision making teams in football. Now, I’m not saying that these QBs aren’t any good, but I honestly have no idea WHICH QBs will turn out the best and I think that was part of the Giants issue, and I can understand that. But the Browns, Jets and Bills HAD to take a QB, otherwise their fans would have burned the place down. But they are still not the organizations to be pointing to for having it all figured out
Didn't try to use them as poster childs of the NFL  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2018 8:00 am : link
and not sure our org should be taking any victory laps as of late as well with the issues we have had on FO, coaching and on field with our recent top picks.

How about those Yanks last night?
RE: Didn't try to use them as poster childs of the NFL  
BigBlueShock : 5/5/2018 8:05 am : link
In comment 13955160 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and not sure our org should be taking any victory laps as of late as well with the issues we have had on FO, coaching and on field with our recent top picks.

How about those Yanks last night?

Yanks are incredible. Young, likeable and flat out badass. At least one of my teams is halfway competent
I think we should give Judge a new contract  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2018 8:06 am : link
right now. And Didi is just a pleasure to watch...
RE: RE: They aren't..  
Klaatu : 5/5/2018 8:30 am : link
In comment 13954671 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13954589 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


building around Eli. They are building a team to compete for eli's last two years.

Basically, it is economically negligent to do anything else.



What a coincidence, because it was also basically gross negligence not to pick a QB at #2...


I'd say that not drafting the consensus best player in the draft when you had the chance would have been gross negligence.

I'd also say that forcing a pick, regardless of position, would have been gross negligence, too.
My view:  
joeinpa : 5/5/2018 8:50 am : link
It s the correct thing to do trying to win with Eli this year and maybe next, this in spite of wanting them to take a quarterback.

But again it is amazing that some still seem to believe Eli has not been part of the problem
No more QBs  
LS : 5/5/2018 11:39 am : link
available in the next few years? Draft? Free agents? Trade? Shame....
RE: No more QBs  
Klaatu : 5/5/2018 11:49 am : link
In comment 13955307 LS said:
Quote:
available in the next few years? Draft? Free agents? Trade? Shame....


No, and since the Giants didn't draft one in the first round this year, the terrorists win.
RE: I heard Barkley is only signing  
micky : 5/5/2018 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13954648 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
a 2 year deal. Don’t shoot the messenger...


hope during those two years he gets his numbers to get himself into that Hall of Famey building
Yes, by all means, lets pick up our next starting QB  
Jimmy Googs : 5/5/2018 12:44 pm : link
in free agency or thru a trade...unlikely is being nice.

You find your guys in the draft. And while terrorists may have a different view, the early marks have the QB classes over next 2 years make the 2018 class look like Hall-of-Famers.

Best to put your eggs in the basket of the guys on the roster for the near/medium term future...
Negligence ???  
Bluesbreaker : 5/5/2018 6:37 pm : link
Ok People are gonna bellyache some More so than others .
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner