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general musing

George from PA : 5/4/2018 4:50 pm
The QB question has been forefront due to Eli poor play, and obviously, the Draft, with several franchise type QBs available. Many here feel that Eli is done and finding a replacement was imperative and who could argue.

The Giants were 3-13, the offense anemic, the defense disgusted, the team is shambles which lead to a complete overhaul of GM, HC and much of the staff.

So, what happened? This time last year we were Super Bowl contenders. A playoff loss at GB. that Eli was one of the best player on the field. Hopes were high and it all went bad real fast. what went wrong?

1. Reese biggest blind spot has been OL. He could not build a decent OL. He spent capital in draft picks and FA $$$ and even tried consistency, nothing worked. His biggest failure and our albatross for the past 7 years!
2. McAdoo had an offense that worked great with GB and worked here until he had to break cover 2. Without, a running game that could mandate attention. Without a mobile QB (Did you notice GB offense without Rodgers!!!). Engram shined but not enough. McAdoo had no answer but pointing fingers which destroyed the team and made a bad environment toxic and cost him his job and his reputation linked to Handley as one of our worst HC. The main cause of 3-13, imo.
3. Eli has not played as well as the other older QBs(Brady, Brees, Big Ben and Rivers). He lost his key targets to injury, developed happy feet and legit concern formed about his future
4. The special teams have never been special but they got worse. The punter and kicker could be directly blamed for losing games.
5. The defense collapsed. Some player issues are major concerns (Eli Apple).

Did I miss anything? So now what? New GM, New HC, OC and DC, new players& gt; NEW ATTITUDE!

Dave seems like a breath of fresh air. I love his style and his press conference are enjoyable. Hutzpah!

Shurmur is a harder read and with coaches, its about what happens on game day. I liked what he did last year with the Qbs. There is something about Bettcher that screams hard tough nose football that I like.

DG understood the trenches needed to be his primary area to address.
1. 3 new bodies on the OL. Is it enough? Is Jones the answer? Is Wheeler? I think we can live with Jones with those two hog-mollies next to him to keep a clean pocket (a key for Eli is a clean pocket, more than edge rush). Wheeler has potential but would prefer him as back-up. Zero depth at Tackle.
2. Like how front 7 is forming. Looks like 3 300+lbs starters on DL with rotational depth. OV, Ogletree and Carter is more talent at Lber in more then a decade.
So far the Trades (Olgetree,Punter), FA (Best LT, Omaneh,etc) and draft (Barkley, etc) are as good as could be expected.

back to the QB question:
Why is Lauletta not consider addressing the QB issue? For that matter Webb? I like their potential. I really liked Darnold especially after his Rose Bowl 2 years ago, but the fact that he did not get better is a concern. Baker (short), Rosen(Injury), Allen (accuracy) and Lauletta (velocity)all concerns. Risking a 4th and last years 3rd is better then risking a 1st, imo.

Finding a franchise QB is hard, finding a QB that wins in the cold of GB, the hostility of Dallas, Atlanta, SF and winning the Super Bowl against an undefeated Team is even harder…..but that is what I want.

Eli is that kind of QB. Can he still do it…not sure but I believe he deserves a decent OL before he gets fired. I feel it is mostly the ability to step into a clean pocket. Give him that…if he still fails. So be it.


We knew everything can not be fixed in one off season. What else?

It is Risky to rely on Eli Apple…… even riskier that we only have unknowns behind him. Maybe DG's plan is to play match up....

Solder, Wheeler and Flowers. any other OTs?
A new HC comes in, usually gets a 3-5 year contract  
Big Blue '56 : 5/4/2018 4:58 pm : link
depending on prior body of work. I continue to scratch my head how an AGGRESSIVE Coordinator on either side of the ball, suddenly becomes conservative after assuming the HC reins. I’m only referring to those coordinators who continue to call the plays even after becoming the HC.

McAdoo was reasonably aggressove under TC and became mush when becoming HC. That seems to have happened to others as well. Why? At worst they fail and walk away with a huge check that will allow them to live very comfortably for the rest of their lives.

The terrible defense and special teams...  
BamaBlue : 5/4/2018 5:03 pm : link
gets lost sometimes in the ineptitude of the offense. The defense went from #2 in 2016 to #29 in 2017. That's not just a dip, that's falling off the cliff.

The special teams, never were anything but average. A very pedestrian special team seemed to be a consistent theme as the offense and defense got hot and cold.

I'm all for blaming Reese, Coughlin and McAdoo, but many of the 'key players' failed to step-up. This team has a lot of talent in the locker room, but seems to have very little effective leadership. I'm hopeful that someone in steps up to lead the 2018 Giants.
Total combined weight of 3 starting DL (assuming Hill is in): 969 lbs  
Knee of Theismann : 5/4/2018 5:09 pm : link
Nice.

Also, agree that it's pretty simple with Reese: he sucked at evaluating OL. It was his downfall. He had no part in building that '07 SB champ o-line, he inherited it, and then it was basically the same from 2007-2010. Boothe and Baas (yeah, real hard to find a decent center /sarcasm) were serviceable enough to get the Giants through the 2011 run, but Diehl, Snee, and Mckenzie were still the standouts on that line. But as those guys got older and we started losing them, Reese failed to build his own line and that is the reason this team spiraled out of control (aside from 2016) and he was ultimately run out of town.
Eli played pretty damn well in 2014-2016.  
Boy Cord : 5/4/2018 5:11 pm : link
Last year was a Charlie Foxtrot. Arguably the worst OL in the NFL, bottom-feeding running game, three of their top four WRs on IR, godawful HC. The Giants gave Eli NO support.

Forget about the draft. It’s over. I’m not ready to write Eli off for 2018 or even 2019. The Giants have upgraded three OL positions and with good health, this offense will make DC’s sweat.

I can’t wait to see the improved offense, and it will be vastly improved. Players back from injury. Barkley. Addition by subtraction on OL and coaching staff. And, I’ll be glad we have a winner at QB that’s on a pretty reasonable deal.
Who would want Cousin who got 28 million or Ryan got 30 million  
George from PA : 5/4/2018 5:19 pm : link
What have they won?

Ryan is part of the worse collapse in Super Bowl history. I have never seen him win a must game.

He is a franchise QB.....but I do not trust him to win a championship.
RE: Who would want Cousin who got 28 million or Ryan got 30 million  
Boy Cord : 5/4/2018 5:48 pm : link
In comment 13954690 George from PA said:
Quote:
What have they won?

Ryan is part of the worse collapse in Super Bowl history. I have never seen him win a must game.

He is a franchise QB.....but I do not trust him to win a championship.


Not me. Wouldn’t want either at those prices.
Mcapoo ran the same bland  
sharpshooter66 : 5/4/2018 5:57 pm : link
inside zone rushing scheme play after play after play. I could get off my couch and coordinate a defense to stop that run without an all pro running back bailing them out
RE: Who would want Cousin who got 28 million or Ryan got 30 million  
short lease : 5/4/2018 6:34 pm : link
In comment 13954690 George from PA said:
Quote:
What have they won?

Ryan is part of the worse collapse in Super Bowl history. I have never seen him win a must game.

He is a franchise QB.....but I do not trust him to win a championship.


Not trying to defend Ryan but, I don't think that loss was on him. Those coaches completely changed the game plan in the 2nd half when they had what they thought was an insurmountable lead. They went from being very aggressive with their offensive play calling to ... playing not to lose in the 2nd half.

Only Pete Carroll's decision to throw the ball on the 2nd yard line with under 1 minute left to play - was a more blatant "loss by a coach" game, IMO.
RE: Mcapoo ran the same bland  
short lease : 5/4/2018 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13954714 sharpshooter66 said:
Quote:
inside zone rushing scheme play after play after play. I could get off my couch and coordinate a defense to stop that run without an all pro running back bailing them out


Remember the game (I don't) when the opposing defense came to the line of scrimmage and told our receivers that they "knew the Giant's plays" .... like they were present in the huddle?

Talk about bland - when a little film work (maybe a lot) can reveal to the defense what the Giants were going to run? Geez.
Short lease, I agree...the coaches was main reason  
George from PA : 5/4/2018 6:49 pm : link
But Ryan gets hit as well...the QB gets the credit and the blame.

How many game does Ryan get? Atlanta has had some decent talent....but he is like Romo.....expecting them more to lose then to win a key game
Very Fair Assessment George  
wonderback : 5/4/2018 7:00 pm : link
We'll have to revoke your BBI privileges.

Failure to build on offensive line doomed the GM and Head Coach.
The OP asked teh question about the QB's  
giantstock : 5/5/2018 12:00 am : link
When eh said the follwoing:

"back to the QB question:
Why is Lauletta not consider addressing the QB issue? For that matter Webb? I like their potential. I really liked Darnold especially after his Rose Bowl 2 years ago, but the fact that he did not get better is a concern. Baker (short), Rosen(Injury), Allen (accuracy) and Lauletta (velocity)all concerns. Risking a 4th and last years 3rd is better then risking a 1st, imo."


Well the reason why many of us "don't consider" the QB's is that we think your evaluation is wrong. I hope you're right. Plus I think you and many others over-exaggerate the concern for Rosen's injury. If you're wrong and I'm right, then would you agree we'd probably be the type of team that for now and in the future would be nothing more than slightly above average to slightly below average? Thus we'll be stuck in the middle ground unable to get the QB we need an wind up whenever we get into the playoffs losing to a hot QB such as a young Eli type. If I'm right and many of us who felt the same way are right, you realize we're going to be posting on here in about 2 years that DG should be fired, right?

3-- While I love the idea as you do that he believes in the front 7 and the OL - you make a good point about Reese and his lack of understanding that he needed to get an OL. Yet imo I think there is a concern now with DG with his lack of understanding / or unwillingness to use Analytics and his possible ignoring the understanding of positional value. I hope that isn't the case. But imo it's something to keep a close eye on. His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media. I'm not into Analytics but I don't have to be. He should be enough into it so as to not scoff at it.

4--- For the record, I might have passed on the QB which appears you liked the most in the draft and that is Darnold. I'm 50-50 with Darnold vs Barkley. I just have concerns from him. I definitely did NOT want Allen.
Let's say Giantstock, we agree to disagree  
George from PA : 5/5/2018 4:44 am : link
If Rosen becomes Joe Montana/Tom Brady I would let you know you were right....that we missed out after he wins 2 Super Bowls.

Otherwise, it makes no difference.... doesn't change much as he would not have even been the Giants pick....it would have been Darnold. So it like saying, I wanted Gurley over Flowers and guess what, I was right..... That and a token gets me on the Subway. I really do not need to be reminded as it is what it is.

Rosen does not impress me. I felt, he did seemed to be Max out in his game and did not raise others. Not winning games matter to me....I said injury but concussion aside....he was not my top prospect, neither the QB needy teams in the front of draft. I actually like the guy the Giants took more then Rosen....as his trajectory looks better.

Analytics is a guide but if you live and die by it.....you will always be average, sometimes, you just need to say, wtf and go for it.
Can't resist...  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 5/5/2018 7:01 am : link
UCLA was something like 17-13 with Rosen at QB. They were 1-7 without him. That suggests to me that he made those around him better.
This is simply not true, giantstock:  
Klaatu : 5/5/2018 8:05 am : link
Quote:
Yet imo I think there is a concern now with DG with his lack of understanding / or unwillingness to use Analytics and his possible ignoring the understanding of positional value. I hope that isn't the case. But imo it's something to keep a close eye on. His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media. I'm not into Analytics but I don't have to be. He should be enough into it so as to not scoff at it.


You're taking one flippant remark made by Gettleman and running with it because it fits your narrative. That's not only unfair, it's incorrect.

In a recent interview on WFAN, Gettleman went on at length about how the Giants' evaluation process works, and how Analytics factor into their decisions. They don't ignore them and they certainly understand them. What they don't do is put as much emphasis on them as baseball executives do, because Analytics simply don't tell as complete a story for football players as they do for baseball players. One of the points he made was that football is much more of a team game than baseball, and that very often you have to look at things collectively rather than individually.

You shouldn't look at drafting Saquon Barkley as being in its own separate vacuum, using whatever metric strikes your fancy to try and quantify the pick with regard to other prospects. You look at the pick - a top-tier RB, one of the best to come down the pike in recent memory - in conjunction with drafting Will Hernandez, a bona fide "road grader" for Barkley to run behind. In football, much more than baseball, everything has to "fit," so to speak, and when it does, the sum ends up being more than the individual parts. Honestly, I don't think that's something Jerry Reese ever took into consideration, and I'm glad that Gettleman does.

Rather than the game passing Gettleman by, I think he's showing that he understands it just fine.
Nomad....not really. What that says  
George from PA : 5/5/2018 8:17 am : link
Rosen is much better then his back up.

I really wish that Rosen does well...I also think Arizona is a perfect spot for him. But I think an immobile delicate QB is a bad mix in the NFL.

I am not even sure he missed the bowl game due to a concussion.....he all but admitted that he didn't want to risk getting hurt in a bowl. Great leadership. I am glad we passed.
RE: This is simply not true, giantstock:  
giantstock : 5/5/2018 9:34 am : link
In comment 13955168 Klaatu said:
Quote:


Quote:


Yet imo I think there is a concern now with DG with his lack of understanding / or unwillingness to use Analytics and his possible ignoring the understanding of positional value. I hope that isn't the case. But imo it's something to keep a close eye on. His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media. I'm not into Analytics but I don't have to be. He should be enough into it so as to not scoff at it.



You're taking one flippant remark made by Gettleman and running with it because it fits your narrative. That's not only unfair, it's incorrect.

In a recent interview on WFAN, Gettleman went on at length about how the Giants' evaluation process works, and how Analytics factor into their decisions. They don't ignore them and they certainly understand them. What they don't do is put as much emphasis on them as baseball executives do, because Analytics simply don't tell as complete a story for football players as they do for baseball players. One of the points he made was that football is much more of a team game than baseball, and that very often you have to look at things collectively rather than individually.

You shouldn't look at drafting Saquon Barkley as being in its own separate vacuum, using whatever metric strikes your fancy to try and quantify the pick with regard to other prospects. You look at the pick - a top-tier RB, one of the best to come down the pike in recent memory - in conjunction with drafting Will Hernandez, a bona fide "road grader" for Barkley to run behind. In football, much more than baseball, everything has to "fit," so to speak, and when it does, the sum ends up being more than the individual parts. Honestly, I don't think that's something Jerry Reese ever took into consideration, and I'm glad that Gettleman does.

Rather than the game passing Gettleman by, I think he's showing that he understands it just fine.


What kind of bullshit reply is this? I said it is a CONCERN and I said "I hope that is not the case."

Way to go and misrepresent the post.

What you call "a flippant comment" I call it a concern in which "I hope that is not the case" that he doesn't use disregard it. OFC you tried to twist this to fit your own narrative. What the hell are you doing talking about baseball? I never mentioned baseball and football have teh same analytics.
RE: RE: This is simply not true, giantstock:  
Klaatu : 5/5/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13955246 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 13955168 Klaatu said:


Quote:




Quote:


Yet imo I think there is a concern now with DG with his lack of understanding / or unwillingness to use Analytics and his possible ignoring the understanding of positional value. I hope that isn't the case. But imo it's something to keep a close eye on. His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media. I'm not into Analytics but I don't have to be. He should be enough into it so as to not scoff at it.



You're taking one flippant remark made by Gettleman and running with it because it fits your narrative. That's not only unfair, it's incorrect.

In a recent interview on WFAN, Gettleman went on at length about how the Giants' evaluation process works, and how Analytics factor into their decisions. They don't ignore them and they certainly understand them. What they don't do is put as much emphasis on them as baseball executives do, because Analytics simply don't tell as complete a story for football players as they do for baseball players. One of the points he made was that football is much more of a team game than baseball, and that very often you have to look at things collectively rather than individually.

You shouldn't look at drafting Saquon Barkley as being in its own separate vacuum, using whatever metric strikes your fancy to try and quantify the pick with regard to other prospects. You look at the pick - a top-tier RB, one of the best to come down the pike in recent memory - in conjunction with drafting Will Hernandez, a bona fide "road grader" for Barkley to run behind. In football, much more than baseball, everything has to "fit," so to speak, and when it does, the sum ends up being more than the individual parts. Honestly, I don't think that's something Jerry Reese ever took into consideration, and I'm glad that Gettleman does.

Rather than the game passing Gettleman by, I think he's showing that he understands it just fine.



What kind of bullshit reply is this? I said it is a CONCERN and I said "I hope that is not the case."

Way to go and misrepresent the post.

What you call "a flippant comment" I call it a concern in which "I hope that is not the case" that he doesn't use disregard it. OFC you tried to twist this to fit your own narrative. What the hell are you doing talking about baseball? I never mentioned baseball and football have teh same analytics.


Wow, what an ignorant, disingenuous, angry little douchebag you are.

You're "concerned" about DG's approach to Analytics, but you're also "not into" them. So, I tried to alleviate your "concerns" by explaining exactly what DG said about them at length, how he compared their usage in football as opposed to baseball, and why he puts less emphasis on them than a baseball executive would. Contrary to what you wrote, he didn't scoff at them. He understands them completely and uses them correctly, proof positive that the game has in no way, shape, or form passed his by.

You had concerns and I tried to alleviate them, but you're just too much of an asshole to appreciate it, or too much of asshole to let anyone question your narrative, which is that the DG made a mistake by drafting Barkley instead of a QB. Either way, you're still an asshole.

Oh, but I did say "I hope that's not the case. Yeah...that's where the disingenuous part comes in, because you and I both know that a little shit like you is salivating at the thought of coming back here and posting "I TOLD YOU SO!" until the cows come home.

There's a bus leaving in five minutes, you fucking moron. Be under it.
RE: Let's say Giantstock, we agree to disagree  
giantstock : 5/5/2018 11:09 am : link
In comment 13955131 George from PA said:
Quote:
If Rosen becomes Joe Montana/Tom Brady I would let you know you were right....that we missed out after he wins 2 Super Bowls.

Otherwise, it makes no difference.... doesn't change much as he would not have even been the Giants pick....it would have been Darnold. So it like saying, I wanted Gurley over Flowers and guess what, I was right..... That and a token gets me on the Subway. I really do not need to be reminded as it is what it is.

Rosen does not impress me. I felt, he did seemed to be Max out in his game and did not raise others. Not winning games matter to me....I said injury but concussion aside....he was not my top prospect, neither the QB needy teams in the front of draft. I actually like the guy the Giants took more then Rosen....as his trajectory looks better.

Analytics is a guide but if you live and die by it.....you will always be average, sometimes, you just need to say, wtf and go for it.


1-- Sure George. We can agree to disagree. It's always been the crux of all of our disagreements the QB vs the RB. And for that matter- we’ll never agree. If you’re comparison has to be Montana/Brady as an acceptable result of a QB draft pick for this year – I don’t agree. Thouhg you probably just threw out those names off the top of your head. I don’t know what comaprsions to make but I feel Rosen having an offensive line will be highly successful.

2—I agree other than Rosen and Mayfield and ofc Mayfield was drafted 1st. But I was in alignment with Greg Cossel, ourlads and SY that the top 2 QB’s were Mayfield and Rosen. I think SY was wrong for if he were GM he would have taken SB but as far as ratings I think Mayifeld and Rosen are better than Darnold and Allen. And I’ll say again I’m 50-50 Barkley vs Darnold.

3—I agree Analytics is a guide. But DG was really stupid for knocking them in the manner he did. Just because you don’t live and die buy them doesn’t mean you discount them and a GM of his stature shouldn’t have made such stupid comments. But if many of us felt he should have taken a QB and the QB turns out to be great whiel SB leads them nowhere- then all of his other past comments also great brought up.

4—I think we can agree that the jury is out if he made the right move. Whether I’m right or wrong about Rosen is not important. This goes beyond our arguments right now. If DG passed on a Qb of Rosen, or Darnold or Allen and if just one comes out great while the giants go nowhere for several years as they pursue a QB- his comments of disregarding the QB and Analytics will look as dumb as Jerry Reese not taking OL.
RE: RE: RE: This is simply not true, giantstock:  
giantstock : 5/5/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 13955280 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13955246 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 13955168 Klaatu said:


Quote:




Quote:


Yet imo I think there is a concern now with DG with his lack of understanding / or unwillingness to use Analytics and his possible ignoring the understanding of positional value. I hope that isn't the case. But imo it's something to keep a close eye on. His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media. I'm not into Analytics but I don't have to be. He should be enough into it so as to not scoff at it.



You're taking one flippant remark made by Gettleman and running with it because it fits your narrative. That's not only unfair, it's incorrect.

In a recent interview on WFAN, Gettleman went on at length about how the Giants' evaluation process works, and how Analytics factor into their decisions. They don't ignore them and they certainly understand them. What they don't do is put as much emphasis on them as baseball executives do, because Analytics simply don't tell as complete a story for football players as they do for baseball players. One of the points he made was that football is much more of a team game than baseball, and that very often you have to look at things collectively rather than individually.

You shouldn't look at drafting Saquon Barkley as being in its own separate vacuum, using whatever metric strikes your fancy to try and quantify the pick with regard to other prospects. You look at the pick - a top-tier RB, one of the best to come down the pike in recent memory - in conjunction with drafting Will Hernandez, a bona fide "road grader" for Barkley to run behind. In football, much more than baseball, everything has to "fit," so to speak, and when it does, the sum ends up being more than the individual parts. Honestly, I don't think that's something Jerry Reese ever took into consideration, and I'm glad that Gettleman does.

Rather than the game passing Gettleman by, I think he's showing that he understands it just fine.



What kind of bullshit reply is this? I said it is a CONCERN and I said "I hope that is not the case."

Way to go and misrepresent the post.

What you call "a flippant comment" I call it a concern in which "I hope that is not the case" that he doesn't use disregard it. OFC you tried to twist this to fit your own narrative. What the hell are you doing talking about baseball? I never mentioned baseball and football have teh same analytics.



Wow, what an ignorant, disingenuous, angry little douchebag you are.

You're "concerned" about DG's approach to Analytics, but you're also "not into" them. So, I tried to alleviate your "concerns" by explaining exactly what DG said about them at length, how he compared their usage in football as opposed to baseball, and why he puts less emphasis on them than a baseball executive would. Contrary to what you wrote, he didn't scoff at them. He understands them completely and uses them correctly, proof positive that the game has in no way, shape, or form passed his by.

You had concerns and I tried to alleviate them, but you're just too much of an asshole to appreciate it, or too much of asshole to let anyone question your narrative, which is that the DG made a mistake by drafting Barkley instead of a QB. Either way, you're still an asshole.

Oh, but I did say "I hope that's not the case. Yeah...that's where the disingenuous part comes in, because you and I both know that a little shit like you is salivating at the thought of coming back here and posting "I TOLD YOU SO!" until the cows come home.

There's a bus leaving in five minutes, you fucking moron. Be under it.


Ohh my God! You deliberately misrepresent my post and the asshole that you you get mad at me. You’re too stupid to read and comprehend. You have DG and Barkley to far up your butt I guess.

I make the following comment

“His scoffing at Analytics was a possible foreshadow into the game has passed the guy by. I hope he was joking/ just playing with the media.”

And yet you make the bullshit post of me changing the narrative about Dg’s comments regarding Analytics.. As for “I told you so” I expect assholes such as youself will go on to claim “everyone was basically in agreement with SB pick.”

Unbelievable though. You misrepresent what I say and you’re mad at me. Unreal.
Giantsstock, we can go back and forth....but  
George from PA : 5/5/2018 11:36 am : link
You kind of answer my same concern...

your not sold on Darnold and I suspect not sold on Allen either....Mayfield was not an option as he was picked....so your only issue was selecting Rosen over Barkely. Correct.

Rosen was not the preferred choice of Cleveland, Jets,or Buffalo....the QBs were not unanimous....eye or the beholder. So all come with risks.

To be honest Lauletta has a lot of Rosen in him....consistent, compact release, accurate...Rosen has a stronger arm and Lauletta is more mobile....Rosen played higher competition. Personally, Give me Lauletta in the 4th rd vs Rosen in the 1st.

As far, DG comments....you are taking it too literal....he seems to be playing with the media, if you ask me. I have not seen him make an outrageous mistake yet ....other than not taking Rosen 1st🙂
RE: Giantsstock, we can go back and forth....but  
giantstock : 5/5/2018 5:22 pm : link
In comment 13955304 George from PA said:
Quote:
You kind of answer my same concern...

your not sold on Darnold and I suspect not sold on Allen either....Mayfield was not an option as he was picked....so your only issue was selecting Rosen over Barkely. Correct.

Rosen was not the preferred choice of Cleveland, Jets,or Buffalo....the QBs were not unanimous....eye or the beholder. So all come with risks.

To be honest Lauletta has a lot of Rosen in him....consistent, compact release, accurate...Rosen has a stronger arm and Lauletta is more mobile....Rosen played higher competition. Personally, Give me Lauletta in the 4th rd vs Rosen in the 1st.

As far, DG comments....you are taking it too literal....he seems to be playing with the media, if you ask me. I have not seen him make an outrageous mistake yet ....other than not taking Rosen 1st🙂


Yes. I felt like SY - and like Greg Cosell and like Ourlads - that Rosen is very, very good. I can never predict someone will be Tom Brady or Joe Montana.

Further, I think we can agree that the point isn't "if I'm right or if you are right." The point is - is DG right? So I 100% agree if Barkley is able to take Giants to terrific success the move was good or maybe great depending on the success. But regardless as to what I feel of the QB's-- if Barkley doesn't produce and the guys I didn't think were that good of Allen or Darnold (though again Darnold I'm 50-50), I will be blaming DG as will many who thought highly of Darnold or Allen.

I realize Rosen comes with risks. I don't believe there is a player who comes from the draft that doesn't. Just saying he would have been my choice. But it's not like my choice is some left field choice.

As far as DG's comments. I'm not taking him "literal" -- yet. As you say and Klaatu- maybe he does. I'm not disputing "the maybe." Yet I htink it's "maybe" he isn't looking at Analytics as much as he should. So if I think Rosen was the better pick - you know I have to think DG "missed something", right?

His Analytics comment was a stupid comment. In of itself no big deal. But he minimized the overall section of a QB over other positions which is wrong imo. It's not like I'm the only with that opinion either. I hear DG doesn't trade down. While I think this is a lot of media driven garbage I do wonder if he does get s super deal if he would ever trade down. It's no big deal. But then when you add in his "Gold Jacket"c comment-- what does that even mean? This comment can completely disregard "positional value."

So these are red flags. Not to you because he picked the guy you wanted. SO you look at these comments not as an accumulation of "maybe a concern" meaing you think "we have a GM who nailed it and understands." But looking at the perspective for me and others who would have liked Rosen or either Darnold or Allen-- it means DG's philosophy is wrong or his evaluation was faulty, right? I got to say though -- I'm excited to see Barkley and add that up with OBJ.

**And thank you for the cordial conversation. Unlike another poster on this thread - I appreciate our back-and-forth. Thanks for allowing that George. I'm so looking forward to see the Barkley/OBJ combo. And if ELi is on his game and the OLine can be pretty good - could be a special year.
RE: Short lease, I agree...the coaches was main reason  
short lease : 5/5/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13954761 George from PA said:
Quote:
But Ryan gets hit as well...the QB gets the credit and the blame.

How many game does Ryan get? Atlanta has had some decent talent....but he is like Romo.....expecting them more to lose then to win a key game


George - I was not trying to argue with your assessment. I agree with about 95% of what you said. Sharpshooter made a comment that reminded me about how bad our offense was last year ... and it brought back memories that I am trying to forget.
I do not know enough to be upset if they went in a different direction  
George from PA : 5/5/2018 6:38 pm : link
Ideally, I would have liked a small trade down and still get Barkley.....so they could address corner with a premium pick.

But if they picked QB....I would have been fine with it, but then they needed to release Eli sooner than later....

I figure with a 4th and 3rd pick...they all could co-exist.....but a 1st rd pick needs to see the field sooner.....

I do not fall in love with anyone.....because I am not expert.
RE: I do not know enough to be upset if they went in a different direction  
short lease : 5/5/2018 10:08 pm : link
In comment 13955659 George from PA said:
Quote:
Ideally, I would have liked a small trade down and still get Barkley.....so they could address corner with a premium pick.

But if they picked QB....I would have been fine with it, but then they needed to release Eli sooner than later....

I figure with a 4th and 3rd pick...they all could co-exist.....but a 1st rd pick needs to see the field sooner.....

I do not fall in love with anyone.....because I am not expert.


That would have been ideal but, I am trying to think of a team (I am thinking multiple teams would've had to be involved) that was in a position to move into our spot ... while we only moved down 3-4 spots?

Overall I think it was a great draft (hard to tell after 2 weeks, 2-3 years is a better time span). If the draft of 2018 turns out to be a good one and DG can pick good/great players on a regular basis - the Giants will be back in no time. Will it be quick enough for Eli's to be the QB? Who knows ...
1. Reese biggest blind spot has been OL  
short lease : 5/5/2018 10:48 pm : link
But, I did some research (wikipedia only - so I hope they are right : ) )

The Giants Offensive Line that won the 2007 Super bowl -

1. David Diehl (LT) - 5th round pick by the Giants.
2. Rich Suebert (LG) - UDFA signed w/ the Giants.
3. Shaun Ohara (C ) - UDFA signed originally w/ Clevelend.
4. Chris Snee (RG) - 2nd round draft pick by the Giants.
5. Kareem Mckenzie (RT) - 3rd round draft pick by the Jets.

O'hara cost 5.4 mil for 3 years and Mckensie cost 37 mil for 7 years ....Except for Chris Snee (high pick) and McKenzie (a lot of money) - that is very little invested into what turned out to be a very good OL (good enough to win the SB). I am wondering if Reese was blinded by fate and luck and thought "it was easy" to build an OL and that he would get "lucky" every year?

Whatever his line of thinking was - it cost him his job
hit "enter' to early on previous post.  
short lease : 5/5/2018 10:50 pm : link
George - I agree with 100 % on Reese's blind spot.
Short lease, I don't argue  
George from PA : 5/6/2018 5:16 am : link
And if I thought you were.....I won't engage.

Some BBIers are way too emotionally tied to their beliefs.

I have my opinion but I am just a fan.....not a professional scout....so how vested can I really be in my opinion that mostly come from write ups, videos and some basic knowledge of football (I have played and done some coaching).

The draft just seemed to flow in the Giants direction  
George from PA : 5/6/2018 5:30 am : link
@2...they are really drafting early....

"Best player in draft"....he is a special player, my only warning is even though, he 230...he does not play like an inside grinder.

Hernandez after combine were he impressed seemed out of reach....

Carter looks like the guy they wanted in the 1st 2 years ago

Every write up is positive about DTs

And Kyle Laulette...seems impressive....

I like the corner from PennSt, the UDFA....so what is not to like......

But somehow a bunch of overly invested fans think they know better....about the QBs. Call me crazy, but I trust Shurmur more than anyone on this site especially dealing with QBs
The Giants and all the wherewithal at their disposal  
Big Blue '56 : 5/6/2018 6:58 am : link
know better than we do. Yes they can, have and will make mistakes, but less than we will as die hard fans, imv. Nothing wrong with opinions however
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