Giants more than most organizations are huge on character this is especially magnified in round 1 and then even moreso if you are picking top 5. In that range they want a guy who has it 'all': character, production, measurables, work ethic etc.
They also tend to prefer the high impact player/position which is why while we heard they liked Nelson alot, they werent going to pick an OG at 2. Which of the blue chip non QBs left Saquon or Chubb . RBs for the most part ARE a lower impact position until you find the rare game changing types with home run speed and playmaking ability and-or ones that are legitimate receiving threats out of the backfield.
Barkley is both those things and an extremely high character player to boot.
Now in regards to the QB position. I think multiple things were going on there which led to them going non QB. As we all know if you think there is a franchise QB AND your organization has decided it is an immediate (or almost immediate) need, that QB should trump everything else.
So breaking down those two factors: Was there a franchise QB in the Giants opinion? I beleive the answer is yes but it was only one of the 4 top options: Sam Darnold. We spoke about character earlier and its even more magnified when we are talking a face of the franchise player.
Right or wrong I believe that dropped Rosen and Mayfield out of the picture entirely. To take a QB at #2 for the Giants, he will need to be Eli squeaky clean. Look at their recent history of QB picks: Eli,Simms,Brown,Webb,Laulletta . All guys with squeaky clean character.
The two guys that fit that bill were Darnold and Allen. However in Allens case I think there was enough doubt about how raw he was and if he would be able to correct all his mechanical stuff more so than Darnold. Darnold showed tremendous accuracy despite some flaws , Allen was very inconsistent. Also Allen did not show a high level of anticipation and D reading ability while Darnold was much better in this department. With all that said, at the end of the day, I think the ONLY QB with a top of the draft franchise grade was Darnold.
Now to the second point and why the Giants didnt pick him: QB was NOT deemed an immediate need. All the quotes from Gettleman to Shurmur to Accorsi kept repeating one mantra; Eli has years left. Also despite being unproven, Webb is doing everything right. That did not sound like an organization ready to part with their 2 time Super Bowl winning MVP QB at the end of this year. And making the investment at #2 in the entire draft at QB usually means the kid is playing sometime year 1 or latest year 2.
Now we may or may not agree with ownerships logic/decision but this is very likely what happened. Sam Darnold being available at 2 and them passing on him was case in point. If you still doubt, ask yourself this question: If they truly thought Eli was done, in drastic decline, or right on the precipice of it, do you honestly think they bypass Sam Darnold at #2 ? Further, knowing this is also a very prideful organization that doesnt believe it will be picking at #2 anytime soon again?
The only QB talk I heard was Darnold was the only one they really liked, but it appears he was not any higher than #4 on their board, behind SB, Chubb, Nelson.
They stayed true to their board.
The only QB talk I heard was Darnold was the only one they really liked, but it appears he was not any higher than #4 on their board, behind SB, Chubb, Nelson.
They stayed true to their board.
So Jon, if they truly thought Eli was done you think they bypass Sam Darnold at #2?
Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.
But the fact of the matter is, they chose a possible great running back over a possible franchise quarterback.
If they win another Super Bowl with Eli or go on to win Super Bowl(s) with Webb or Lauletta, then they were right.
If not and either if Darnold, Allen or Rosen go on to stardom, then it is one if the biggest blunders in the history of the organization.
Barkley - top RB prospect in years and that's saying a lot with Gurley, Fournette, Elliott coming out recently. But he's more than just a RB as he is exceptional out of the backfield, something some of his detractors like to overlook when they point out his (relatively) low rushing totals from last year. Shurmur has shown he can be very creative offensively and with the Vikes did an excellent job maximizing the talent and finding mismatches. DG also drafted a similar (but far less explosive) player in Christian McCaffrey #8 overall last year. Like CM, Barkley won't be expected to run the ball 20-25 times/game, but could easily see 20+ touches per game as they look to get him the ball in open space and move him around to create mismatches.
Normally, dump-offs are extremely reliable (I say *normally* because the Giants RBs were awful last year) and if you have an explosive player like Barkley they can even lead to big plays and a much more efficient offense. How many times will Barkley need to beat a LB in the flat before teams start covering him with a safety or extra DB? And the second the safeties start cheating up a little or hesitate, Beckham is blowing past them or Engram is getting behind them down the seam.
Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.
I think JonC is on target here. Gettleman himself said it fairly simply "you have the #2 pick, don't over think it". The most significant thing I think Gettleman said on draft night was that if you have to talk yourself into a pick, especially that high, you don't make the pick because you have to live with it.
He's pretty clearly talking about the QBs, and Sam Darnold specifically. If you have Barkley so highly rated, and there are no good trade down options, and you aren't sold on the QBs, I'd imagine this wasn't that hard a decision for Gettleman to make once Mayfield went #1.
Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.
He was their target partially b/c they believe Eli has 'years' left as many involved in the decision making put it.
1) They emphatically believe that Eli has AT LEAST 2 more years left of above average play. They probably believe his downfall was due to a horrible supporting cast and system, like many on this site believe.
or
2) They really think they have something in Webb. The Lauletta pick fell to them late and they couldn't pass on getting some competition, but they are obviously liking what they are seeing and hearing out of Webb.
We will/should 100% know the answer to #1 after this season, as this should be the best supporting cast Eli has had in 5+ years. The answer to #2 comes shortly thereafter.
You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.
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then SB was their target, end of story.
Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.
I think JonC is on target here. Gettleman himself said it fairly simply "you have the #2 pick, don't over think it". The most significant thing I think Gettleman said on draft night was that if you have to talk yourself into a pick, especially that high, you don't make the pick because you have to live with it.
He's pretty clearly talking about the QBs, and Sam Darnold specifically. If you have Barkley so highly rated, and there are no good trade down options, and you aren't sold on the QBs, I'd imagine this wasn't that hard a decision for Gettleman to make once Mayfield went #1.
I still haven't seen anyone answer this question: Does DG pass up Darnold if they thought Eli was 'done' or very nearly finished?
Yes Barkley carried a rare grade, I certainly agree with this. However I just see no way we pass on Darnold if they thought Eli was done.
You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.
This is where we disagree then. I think the prospect was present but they didn't deem their to be enough of a 'current need' to take him.
1) They emphatically believe that Eli has AT LEAST 2 more years left of above average play. They probably believe his downfall was due to a horrible supporting cast and system, like many on this site believe.
or
2) They really think they have something in Webb. The Lauletta pick fell to them late and they couldn't pass on getting some competition, but they are obviously liking what they are seeing and hearing out of Webb.
We will/should 100% know the answer to #1 after this season, as this should be the best supporting cast Eli has had in 5+ years. The answer to #2 comes shortly thereafter.
EXACTLY. Or even a combination of the two and they further hedged their bets on Webb by taking a second tier QB in Lauletta. Taking him in the fourth meant no where near the commitment of taking a QB #2 overall (which would have likely meant moving on from Eli at the end of the year-which they obviously weren't ready to commit to do.)
Barkley helps your running game.
He helps your passing game.
He helps create defensive mismatches.
He helps putting the play action back in the Giants offense.
He helps protect your QB.
He helps your 4 minute offense.
He helps your time of possession.
He helps your defense.
Its simple he helps many phases of the game and he helps NOW and in the future..
Like I said right or wrong, Darnold was very high on their board. They weren't ready to part with Eli whom they believe has 'years' left AND while feeling strongly they can win now in his remaining 'championship' window.
We will see in a couple years just how wise a decision this is. If we win a championship or close to it before Eli retires, that makes this is a sound decision even if one of Darnold or Rosen become a franchise QB.
Or of course if Webb or Lauletta turn out to be legitimate upper level Qbs.
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DG's point about talking yourself into a prospect looms large.
You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.
This is where we disagree then. I think the prospect was present but they didn't deem their to be enough of a 'current need' to take him.
dammit man how dense are you??? I wasn't abot need! it was about getting the player they most believed in!
They stuck to their draft board.
I honestly believe that Eli (warts and all) is a better QB in 2018 and 2019 than any of 5 QBs we can possibly be discussing.
Factor in the relative position of SB's football player evaluation grade compared to the QBs' evaluation as players.
Wildcard factor: It is possible, not likely but not ludicrous, that Webb is better than any of the 5 in 2020.
It should have taken DG about 2 seconds to make this decision.
Barkley and a good (great?) running game makes any QB look a whole lot better. And it will for Eli too.
~Take the best player in the draft
~Get a player that helps your franchise QB be a better player
~Bring in a high quality, hard working player
~Take one of the best lineman in the draft with the 2nd round pick
It is damn tough to find a franchise QB but when you do, you don't let them go until you know that are finished. Eli isn't!!
They stuck to their draft board.
Still haven't heard someone come out and say it.
So regardless of what they felt about Eli, you believe Saquon would have been the pick?
I could see passing on Mayfield,Allen and possibly Rosen. But not Sam. Just Too good production and personality match for what they look for.
It is damn tough to find a franchise QB but when you do, you don't let them go until you know that are finished. Eli isn't!!
John I think their thinking centers more on this than Darnold's grade. They don't want to let go of a Qb they think has years of championship football left.
Sadly, it doesn't stop the multitude of threads thinking the information will come out and the theories behind what the thinking was.
JonC and Victor have pretty much given the most rational view.
Thinking the situation is getting clearer from comments by DG isn't going to happen.
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probably was #4 at highest.
They stuck to their draft board.
Still haven't heard someone come out and say it.
So regardless of what they felt about Eli, you believe Saquon would have been the pick?
I could see passing on Mayfield,Allen and possibly Rosen. But not Sam. Just Too good production and personality match for what they look for.
It seems contradictory that you would have skepticism about one person's statement on the team's vluation of Darnold but in other posts insist that the Giants valued Darnold highly. I'd like to see someone come out and say that too.
In truth, there's a lot of conjecture here about the what the Giants themselves believed. Maybe not so much conjecture but transference of our own views onto the brain of DG
Time will tell. I think it's past time to move on from this debate. It will undoubtedly resurface many times over, but for now we should get behind the decision and enjoy the truly special addition to the team. The impact SB is going to have for Eli and Odell is going to be massive.
Occam's razor on Barkley...and every other pick they made...is that DG spoke truth. The name at the top of the ability/talent/value list (value being *solely* a function of ability and talent) was Barkley in the first round, Hernandez in the second round, Carter at 3a...etc.
I really do think that they switched from the previous regime having a tier of talent and then picking by need to a straight vertical list of ability and then just going straight down that list to pick the top name at their time to pick.
If they factored in need and selected from a tier of similarly ranked people, DG was first of all lying, and second of all, they would have taken a lot more time to deliberate before picking.
If I'm the new Head Coach in that situation, I wouldn't really want "Make Rookie QB our next franchise QB" on my plate. It's recipe for disaster.
I'd want the vet QB leading my offensive meetings while I try to fix the mess and get the 52 other guys up to speed. Get the team ready and to the point where a rookie QB can come in and have success.
But seriously, if Barkley is Adrian Peterson but a better receiver & blocker than we did well. If not, we'll never hear the end of it.
I don't care how great a QB you are. If you can't run the ball and stop the run and pressure the QB you're not going to win very many games. I like Gettleman addressing our running game and the OL.
I said it before and I'll say it again. If the Ravens can win a SB with Trent "Effin" Dilfer at QB what does that tell you. They won because the could run the ball and stop the run and pressure the QB on defense.
I predict the Giants will win another SB before Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield ever do.
I love the pick. I think it just underscores that ownership believes we are in a 'win now' window (despite last year's debacle) while Eli still has life in his arm.
Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.
But seriously, if Barkley is Adrian Peterson but a better receiver & blocker than we did well. If not, we'll never hear the end of it.
I think it's more the results. If we win a SuperBowl or at least come close and Barkley plays a big role in Eli's remaining few years, this will be considered the 'right' move.
However if we don't and/or one of Darnold or Rosen become a top 10 NFL QB for the next 10-15 years this will be questioned for years to come.
I actually agree with Giants thinking. I believe Eli has a few years left and Barkley could have even more a positive impact than Gurley,Zeke and Fournette have had leading their teams to the playoffs.
And of course if either Webb or Lauletta at least prove to be in range of what Darnold or Rosen become that in itself further justifies the pick.
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People will still question the pick... I don’t know what to tell them... If Saquon plays as well as he is capable of playing in his first two years, we will be in some playoff games, and if Eli has anything left he can lead one last playoff run IMO. By the time Darnold develops into a great QB like I think he will, this entire team will have had to be rebuilt and we will have to witness several really bad years with no guarantee of contention any time soon. Loving the Saquon pick more and more each day as we get closer to seeing him in action, can’t wait. Does Giants rookie mini camp start this Friday?
I love the pick. I think it just underscores that ownership believes we are in a 'win now' window (despite last year's debacle) while Eli still has life in his arm.
Too, Shurmur had Keenum 1 win from the SB. He was great with Foles when he was first with Philly. Did well with Bradford pre injury. Aside from the fact that they considered SB a no-brainer, I have to believe Webb or Lauletta could manage this O under the aegis of Shurmur if necessary.
Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.
Which is a big reason why they chose Barkley and not Darnold. B/C if they didnt feel they could 'win now' (or soon) they likely don't pass up on the franchise talent of Darnold.
Anyway, he says that while he really liked the Giants' draft, he also really didn't like it, because even if Barkley turns out to be "the next big thing" at RB, it won't mean anything if Eli Manning is cooked. The Giants will have blown their best chance at getting a franchise QB to succeed him, and they'll regret it for the next fifteen years.
Fifteen years? Seriously? Yup, that's what he said. Fifteen years.
I thought that was pretty stupid. Even if Manning is cooked, even if Webb or Lauletta never amount to anything more than acceptable back-ups, would it really take them that long to find another QB that could lead them to glory? I don't think so. They may go through some lean years, but if they can put together a team that's relatively stout across the board while they're looking for their QB (in the draft, through free-agency, or via a trade), well, so be it.
I look at what the 2005 Steelers were able to do with a dominant defense, a monster running game, and the 11th pick in the '04 draft in his second year at QB, and I don't worry too much about what the Giants didn't do in this year's draft.
Anyway, he says that while he really liked the Giants' draft, he also really didn't like it, because even if Barkley turns out to be "the next big thing" at RB, it won't mean anything if Eli Manning is cooked. The Giants will have blown their best chance at getting a franchise QB to succeed him, and they'll regret it for the next fifteen years.
Fifteen years? Seriously? Yup, that's what he said. Fifteen years.
I thought that was pretty stupid. Even if Manning is cooked, even if Webb or Lauletta never amount to anything more than acceptable back-ups, would it really take them that long to find another QB that could lead them to glory? I don't think so. They may go through some lean years, but if they can put together a team that's relatively stout across the board while they're looking for their QB (in the draft, through free-agency, or via a trade), well, so be it.
I look at what the 2005 Steelers were able to do with a dominant defense, a monster running game, and the 11th pick in the '04 draft in his second year at QB, and I don't worry too much about what the Giants didn't do in this year's draft.
There has been alot of debate on the top 4 guys in this draft. I guess it all depends on your 'final' grade on 3 of the 4 (since Mayfield went #1). If you beleive that one or more of Allen,Rosen or Darnold will become franchise Qbs it makes the debate all the more interesting.
Because if Eli falls apart too soon and Webb /Lauletta aren't legit NFL QB's and one of those guys turn into the next Eli, Ben Roethlisberger or Phil Rivers, this could become a historic miss for the organization.
Of course swing the pendulum the other way and we win a championship with Eli and Barkley playing big roles in the next 2-3 years and it possibly becomes the best decision ever.
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and Kim Jones also reported there's a plan in place to quickly rebuild over the next 2-3 years. You could say that's a view that suggests the window is open now and they're trying to keep it open for whatever Eli's got left, as well as bring a QB along during the process.
Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.
Which is a big reason why they chose Barkley and not Darnold. B/C if they didnt feel they could 'win now' (or soon) they likely don't pass up on the franchise talent of Darnold.
If they BELIEVED he was a franchise talent in the first place. They weren’t going to settle or force such a high pick. DG said this many times
DG gave his folks plenty of opportunities to convince him to go with another player but nobody was able to.
He also was never going to trade that pick.
Therefore, we have Saquon Barkley.
Lets play ball...
Oooooohhhhh... didn't know that. Thanks.
The other thing to think about wrt Davis Webb is that he was drafted in the 3rd round because he was not NFL ready. Now fast forward one year, and maybe he is more ready than he was last year, maybe he is a better prospect now than he was a year ago. If so, he might very well be a first round value, today, in the eyes of the Giants management.
Davis and Lauletta are literally two months apart, age wise. I am not so sure where Davis would be ranked in this year's draft if you took his college tape and added a year of experience on an NFL practice squad. I suspect he is above the third rounder in terms of value to the organization, and may have graded out above several of the highly touted QB's, which is what really matters.