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learning curve, talent, and impact of new defense

Pascal4554 : 5/8/2018 4:47 pm
1) Will our defense suffer early in the season because the players are learning the new scheme? i.e. more than breakdowns in assignments then normal for the first few games. Or is it more they should know their jobs and make the transition somewhat smoothly.

2) Do we have more or less talent on defense then last year? Loss of JPP and DRC addition by subtraction(?). Picked up Ogletree, drafted Carter, Hill, and McIntosh. Or perhaps too early to tell.

3) Does the new scheme help us against division opponents for the first year? First time Eagles, Dallas, and Washington will face us with the new scheme...though they can watch tape of the Cardinals in prior years.

Forgot to mention  
Pascal4554 : 5/8/2018 4:53 pm : link
we picked up Kareem Martin and Josh Mauro
I am no expert but my opinion is  
George from PA : 5/8/2018 5:25 pm : link
1. It seems this defense will be more agressive....less thinking, more go or no go. One describe it as pin your ears back....

2. Hard to say...lbers seems much more athletic....plenty of beef across DL....the DBs are a concern. Hopefully better talent across the field.
3. Exotic blitz packages should  
George from PA : 5/8/2018 5:28 pm : link
Do better against good OL....which NFC East has....but expose DBs to savy QB/WR combo
Just glad to get away from a traditional 4-3  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/8/2018 5:48 pm : link
It's nearly impossible to find a 4-3 DE like Strahan, who is good both against the run and pass, taking on a 310+ tackle all day, consistently giving you double digit sacks.

Much easier to find tweeners like Von Miller types or a straight up pass rushing LB.
Thanks guys  
Pascal4554 : 5/8/2018 5:58 pm : link
Iím excited for the new defense, just curious how the transition will play out.
Front seven is better...  
the mike : 5/8/2018 6:06 pm : link
LBs are more athletic and faster. DLine is bigger and deeper.

DB depth is a major issue. Assuming Jenkins, Collins, Apple and Thompson can stay healthy and play to the best version of themselves, the base defense will be significantly better than last year. But nickel and dime packages will not be as good without DRC... And if anyone gets hurt, this could be the achilles heel of the team. Need to hope several of the recent signees step up...

I am looking forward to seeing how Bettcher implements his flexible 3-4 scheme and leverages the talent and depth of the talent. I am optimistic that this approach will be a big upgrade from last year and best match up against the other NFC East offenses. Barring injury, I have to believe we will get back to a top five defense in the league as we were in 2016.
I agree with Coach Red. Hard to find DEs and LBs for the 4-3  
Ivan15 : 5/8/2018 6:45 pm : link
Hard to find NT for a 3-4 but the Giants already have a great one.

Sideline to sideline, run-stuffing MLBs for 4-3 are rare.
Pascal - my view is defense  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 6:59 pm : link
will struggle out of the box. Don't see how we can have a new scheme and so many new players, or same players playing new positions and believe they can play well and mesh quickly. I guess it could happen but that seems optimistic.

I think we have more talent, but only marginally more talent. We don't have a good pass rush and could have some secondary issues, but hopefully much more focus/effort this year vs last.

I don't know about your last point...no one does.
Putting the new system aside  
Beer Man : 5/8/2018 7:01 pm : link
IMO there are currently two holes on the D:
- ER (time will tell if the more athletic unit can compensate)
- CB (would like to see DRC picked up, doubt it will happen)

.  
arcarsenal : 5/8/2018 7:10 pm : link
It doesn't sound like this is a very complicated defense. Players are attacking one gap. It's snap and go. There will be an adjustment, but I don't expect scheme to be what holds us back although talent may in a few spots.
Seems like there's going to be a super  
idiotsavant : 5/8/2018 7:48 pm : link
Wide variety in set pieces

-with very different players attacking all different gaps, and then add in safety or ilbs or corners and it's even wider.

So it will just be to memorize all those variations then pin your ears back and go....or not go....or drop...etc
If it's  
idiotsavant : 5/8/2018 8:04 pm : link
Bigs: Harrison, Tomlinson and Hill. Those can each line up shade this way or that at any spot, fully in any gap or end or squared up on any linesman or even wide. - either: All three bigs, Just two of these, just one, or none of them on any given play.

Mediums; Mauro and McIntosh, any shade or any gap.

Smalls: Wynn, Moss, Okwara and most of the OLBs. Any gap or on an end on an OT heads up, or wide

Lights: Carter and the Ilbs and safeties. Any wide open gap or wide.

The ways to do it are almost infinite.
Then  
idiotsavant : 5/8/2018 8:54 pm : link
What you loose within line centric roles multiplicity as you go down the list you gain in speed or the ability to 'fly' to tackle or to adjust greatly your radius to tackle, maybe in burst. Etc.

So it's to build mixes that give advantage.
The defense will be  
Doomster : 5/8/2018 9:17 pm : link
a huge question mark.....

How many times, did we see Receivers catch balls, well short of first downs, and yet get YAC and the first down?

Complete opposite for our offense....we catch a short pass, and are immediately tackled....

This defense has absolutely no depth, just bodies....a key injury or two, and the defense will be in trouble...

I have no idea which defense Bettcher will stress, but somehow he has to create pressure from the front 7, because his defensive back field, outside of Jenkins, is suspect....

And which Collins is going to show up this season?

This offense may have to score points, to help this defense get it's mojo over the course of a season....
I think the D and team in general  
djm : 5/8/2018 9:26 pm : link
Will go as far as the young players take them. Thereís a decent number of veteran star power or veteran players that will keep this team in games but the second year defensive guys like Goodson, thomlinson, Apple, moss, and the rookies will need to emerge and quick. Same applies to the offensive side but thatís a topic for another thread.

Itís a young manís league. We need the young players here to emerge.
More talent on the front 7  
WillVAB : 5/8/2018 9:54 pm : link
More question marks in the secondary.

Iím not concerned about the secondary as this is a scheme predicated on stopping the run and pressuring the QB. If the front 7 does their job the Giants wonít need 5 stud corners.
Can Vernon Stand Up and Play?  
Rafflee : 5/9/2018 8:28 am : link
Vernon and others are gonna be asked to stand up and play in space--- that's a transition to watch. The front 7 depth has been added...where/who are the DBs?
complexity is a big difference  
mittenedman : 5/9/2018 8:59 am : link
Bettcher's multiple like Spags, but according to the players his scheme is much more cut & dry. Spags D was extremely complicated.

I remember last year in camp Spags saying the players were in graduate school now, in year 3. Didn't turn out too well. Seems the longer Spags stays the worse his D gets. Sure it's not as simple as that, but it seems to be a trend.
RE: Can Vernon Stand Up and Play?  
mittenedman : 5/9/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13958883 Rafflee said:
Quote:
Vernon and others are gonna be asked to stand up and play in space--- that's a transition to watch. The front 7 depth has been added...where/who are the DBs?


If you've been watching, Vernon has played from a 2 pt. stance a ton the last 2 years. It started when he injured his wrist in 2016 and Spags tried to limit the wear & tear. He is pretty good at it and has made some good plays downfield in coverage.
He played a lot of 3-4 OLB in Miami. It's not new for him at all.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/9/2018 9:14 am : link
.
RE: complexity is a big difference  
Pascal4554 : 5/9/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 13958907 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Bettcher's multiple like Spags, but according to the players his scheme is much more cut & dry. Spags D was extremely complicated.

I remember last year in camp Spags saying the players were in graduate school now, in year 3. Didn't turn out too well. Seems the longer Spags stays the worse his D gets. Sure it's not as simple as that, but it seems to be a trend.


Yes, that was my impression of Bettcher's defense as well. Hoping Bettcher's defense is simpler and easier for the players as part of helping them play fast.
RE: More talent on the front 7  
Pascal4554 : 5/9/2018 9:16 am : link
In comment 13958659 WillVAB said:
Quote:
More question marks in the secondary.

Iím not concerned about the secondary as this is a scheme predicated on stopping the run and pressuring the QB. If the front 7 does their job the Giants wonít need 5 stud corners.


That was my understanding of Gettleman's thinking. Focus on the trenches.
I truly believe this front 7  
gmen9892 : 5/9/2018 9:28 am : link
Has more quality depth than its had in a long time. The linebackers are the best group we have seen since 2007 IMO. The DL has Snacks, Tomlinson, Hill, McIntosh, Wynn, and Thomas right now, which should give them a nice rotation.

The lack of CB depth is scary right now, but I think they are not done adding to that depth. I also think Apple is going to have a big year this year. The guy never lacked talent, but never was able to put it together. I think he was humbled by what happened last year and from everything I heard, this system will play to his strengths.

It is going to be an interesting first year, but the hope is, with a better offense and a running game that can chew up more clock, the defense will be on the field less. It helped Dallas' defense the past few years with Zeke, and those defenses were less talented than the Giants current defense.

Ball Posession and Field position (and Playing with a Lead)  
Rafflee : 5/9/2018 1:11 pm : link
are good for any defense.
Rafflee makes an understated point  
giants#1 : 5/9/2018 1:27 pm : link
If Barkley/Hernandez/Solder can significantly improve the running game and help the offense actually sustain some drives and control the clock, then it'll greatly help the D. Dallas has been the epitome of this the last 2 years with a below average D on paper playing to an above average level on the field due, in large part, to their ability to dominate TOP which keeps their D fresh and the opposing O out of rhythm.

As for the OP's questions, talent-wise I think we're worse off this year due to the loss of JPP, DRC, Cockrell, and Kennard. While we arguably upgraded the front 7 talent with Martin, Ogletree, and the draft picks, it'll take some significant surprises to replace DRC and Cockrell in the secondary.

I also think the 43 base was more equipped to stop our division foes who all feature strong OLs. That said, I expect to see Vernon lined up with his hand on the ground quite often and if Snacks, Tomlinson and whoever wins the other DE spot can keep Ogletree 'clean', he's got the speed to cover sideline-to-sideline and rack up the tackles.

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