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NFT: Did the Mets really just bat out of order?

Montreal Man : 5/9/2018 1:09 pm
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RE: The Yankees  
ZGiants98 : 5/9/2018 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13959430 Metnut said:
Quote:
also have a top farm system and are coming off of an ALCS appearance last year. The Mets are coming off of 90 losses and have a bottom farm system. The situations aren't comparable.

I'd love to see a Mets team that is smartly run like the Yankees. Would love to poach would of their top assistants this offseason if we get rid of Sandy, Omar and Ricco.


This is recency bias. Sure they do “today” but it was completely flipped a few years ago. Yankees had a farm middle of the pack at best and Mets had a top 5 system heading into 2015. Mets were the envy of everyone coming off the WS appearance. Ebbs and flows.
Aren't most teams in the "postseason hunt" all year?  
PhiPsi125 : 5/9/2018 2:52 pm : link
What a vague statement to hang your hat on. I guess it's the easiest statement to make when you want to weasel your way out of an argument. It kinda plays on both sides of the fence.
Gman only threw 17 pitches  
Vanzetti : 5/9/2018 2:55 pm : link
why are they taking him out? He is due to leadoff the next inning
RE: Aren't most teams in the  
ZGiants98 : 5/9/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13959442 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
What a vague statement to hang your hat on. I guess it's the easiest statement to make when you want to weasel your way out of an argument. It kinda plays on both sides of the fence.


Is this a joke? Of course I’m not saying they are going to be in the “hunt” in spirit. lol. I’m saying they will be in range of an actual postseason spot up until the last week of the season barring catastrophic season ending injuries. Is that specific enough for you?
RE: RE: The Yankees  
Metnut : 5/9/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13959439 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13959430 Metnut said:


Quote:


also have a top farm system and are coming off of an ALCS appearance last year. The Mets are coming off of 90 losses and have a bottom farm system. The situations aren't comparable.

I'd love to see a Mets team that is smartly run like the Yankees. Would love to poach would of their top assistants this offseason if we get rid of Sandy, Omar and Ricco.



This is recency bias. Sure they do “today” but it was completely flipped a few years ago. Yankees had a farm middle of the pack at best and Mets had a top 5 system heading into 2015. Mets were the envy of everyone coming off the WS appearance. Ebbs and flows.


2015 is the exception for the Mets under Alderson. It's not enough to save his job IMO.

It's not ebbs and flows. It's a decade of failure with one great year and one good year. Not good enough, especially with a bottom farm system at the moment. Time is ticking Sandy.

I'll be fine either way, either Mets will make the playoffs or we'll get a new GM. I have no loyalty to this middling regime. Only to the Mets.
RE: RE: Aren't most teams in the  
PhiPsi125 : 5/9/2018 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13959448 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13959442 PhiPsi125 said:


Quote:


What a vague statement to hang your hat on. I guess it's the easiest statement to make when you want to weasel your way out of an argument. It kinda plays on both sides of the fence.



Is this a joke? Of course I’m not saying they are going to be in the “hunt” in spirit. lol. I’m saying they will be in range of an actual postseason spot up until the last week of the season barring catastrophic season ending injuries. Is that specific enough for you?


Yup, that works.
I wasn’t pointing out 2015  
ZGiants98 : 5/9/2018 3:01 pm : link
For the WS. The Mets haven’t had a bad farm system until this year and it’s mainly the result of injuries and graduations. No farm is a top system forever unless the ML roster is putrid forever.

All farms take a dip from time to time. If it’s awful for a 5 year stretch that’s totally different.
RE: RE: RE: Aren't most teams in the  
ZGiants98 : 5/9/2018 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13959454 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13959448 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13959442 PhiPsi125 said:


Quote:


What a vague statement to hang your hat on. I guess it's the easiest statement to make when you want to weasel your way out of an argument. It kinda plays on both sides of the fence.



Is this a joke? Of course I’m not saying they are going to be in the “hunt” in spirit. lol. I’m saying they will be in range of an actual postseason spot up until the last week of the season barring catastrophic season ending injuries. Is that specific enough for you?



Yup, that works.


Deal. :)
Iglesias  
Metnut : 5/9/2018 3:05 pm : link
is someone the Reds should look at moving ASAP. He could help a lot of teams and they'd get a solid haul for him.
It’s like trying to squeeze blood from a stone  
ZGiants98 : 5/9/2018 3:06 pm : link
Right now to get offense. Very frustrating.
Ramos  
Rob in Rockaway : 5/9/2018 3:09 pm : link
shocker...not
This team  
PatchoguePete : 5/9/2018 3:10 pm : link
is crap
1-8  
Metnut : 5/9/2018 3:10 pm : link
in last nine games now. Team is in 4th place. With DeGrom and Thor going, they really need to win this series @ Philly.
Francesa ripping them now in his opening monologue  
Victor in CT : 5/9/2018 3:12 pm : link
they are the baseball season's Jets for him.
Fire Sandy Alderson  
PatchoguePete : 5/9/2018 3:14 pm : link
He's built one of the worst farm systems in all of baseball, the guy can't build a bullpen for his life, and signed the WORST pitcher in baseball to a 2 year contract (Vargas). Being a Mets fan sucks
I prepared myself for a 70 win season  
NYG27 : 5/9/2018 3:23 pm : link
The hot start to this season got my hopes up. Now I feel even worst about the fate of this franchise even before the season even started!

Major League team stinks
Farm system sucks

Honestly, only entertainment I'd tolerate from the Mets now is bringing up Tebow to play everyday. At least that would be entertaining one way or another.
The Mets are -19 on the season.  
NyquistX3 : 5/9/2018 3:50 pm : link
9th worst in baseball. This is currently a lousy team.
Correction, -14. Still 9th worst. Still a lousy team.  
NyquistX3 : 5/9/2018 3:50 pm : link
.
2 runs and 1 run  
Rflairr : 5/9/2018 3:52 pm : link
Against this shitty pitching staff. Unreal
.  
arcarsenal : 5/9/2018 4:04 pm : link
LOL, came back home to see we lost in extras.

Can't even win a series against the worst team in the NL.

This team is in major trouble.
2 things...  
Chris684 : 5/9/2018 4:15 pm : link
It's a bit early for this, and he's far and away my favorite player on the team, but before long it might really start to make sense to move deGrom to a contender.

I thought there was a good match with Astros last season before they got Verlander. This season, there is a team across town who could use him, although I'd rather get kicked in the nuts repeatedly before shipping deGrom to the Bronx and watching him dominate the postseason over there.

If there were a farm system altering offer on the table and you are below .500 yet again, I'm not sure how you don't consider it long and hard.

RE: 2 things...  
Jay on the Island : 5/9/2018 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13959534 Chris684 said:
Quote:
It's a bit early for this, and he's far and away my favorite player on the team, but before long it might really start to make sense to move deGrom to a contender.

I thought there was a good match with Astros last season before they got Verlander. This season, there is a team across town who could use him, although I'd rather get kicked in the nuts repeatedly before shipping deGrom to the Bronx and watching him dominate the postseason over there.

If there were a farm system altering offer on the table and you are below .500 yet again, I'm not sure how you don't consider it long and hard.

The Yankees make the most sense but I doubt the Wilpons will want to help the Yankees win a world series. There would be a substantial Yankees tax that would prohibit a trade. The Phillies could be interested but the Mets wouldn't be thrilled about moving him to a division rival.
The Coupons are terrified of losing customers to the Yankees,  
NyquistX3 : 5/9/2018 4:20 pm : link
so that probably will never happen.
RE: The Coupons are terrified of losing customers to the Yankees,  
Drewcon40 : 5/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13959540 NyquistX3 said:
Quote:
so that probably will never happen.


Nyquist is right but the Wilpons have been losing customers to the Yankees for years now. If you were born in 1990 and started following baseball at 6 or 7 years old. Unless your family are Mets fans, the Yankees built their brand and fanbase. A 28 year old Yankee fan never went through what we have. Even missing the playoffs in 08 worked out so they could close their stadium with a sure game.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok so rather than just make sweeping generalizations in early May  
Section331 : 5/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13959408 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
I can’t think of a single draft that can be labeled a complete bust yet. Drafts take time.


2013 looks awful. 2014 has Conforto and little else. It looks like Sandy's 1st draft was his best, Nimmo and Fulmer. I agree that drafts take time, but after 5 or 6 years, you can start to make assumptions, and my assumption is that those drafts weren't very good.
RE: RE: 2 things...  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13959538 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13959534 Chris684 said:


Quote:


It's a bit early for this, and he's far and away my favorite player on the team, but before long it might really start to make sense to move deGrom to a contender.

I thought there was a good match with Astros last season before they got Verlander. This season, there is a team across town who could use him, although I'd rather get kicked in the nuts repeatedly before shipping deGrom to the Bronx and watching him dominate the postseason over there.

If there were a farm system altering offer on the table and you are below .500 yet again, I'm not sure how you don't consider it long and hard.



The Yankees make the most sense but I doubt the Wilpons will want to help the Yankees win a world series. There would be a substantial Yankees tax that would prohibit a trade. The Phillies could be interested but the Mets wouldn't be thrilled about moving him to a division rival.


If the Yanks keep pitching the way they have been, I dont see the Yanks giving up much for a 30 year old number 3/4 pitcher. German just got done throwing a gem in his first start, Gray has looked good last 2/3 outings and we have Justus Sheffield who is bound to be called up before long. Just dont see it. If he was a lefty, sure.

Btw, regarding batting out of order, when the manager brings out the line up card, doesnt he compare his with the one the ump gets right after he hands it to him?
Number 3/4 pitcher?  
Chris684 : 5/9/2018 4:35 pm : link
Are you saying the Yankees have 2 or 3 pitchers better than deGrom right now?

deGrom is immediately the number 1 pitcher on the Yankees. Come on.
RE: Number 3/4 pitcher?  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 4:37 pm : link
In comment 13959565 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Are you saying the Yankees have 2 or 3 pitchers better than deGrom right now?

deGrom is immediately the number 1 pitcher on the Yankees. Come on.



Absolutely not. Both Sevvy and Tanaka are our 1 and 2.
RE: Number 3/4 pitcher?  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 4:38 pm : link
In comment 13959565 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Are you saying the Yankees have 2 or 3 pitchers better than deGrom right now?

deGrom is immediately the number 1 pitcher on the Yankees. Come on.



Absolutely not. Both Sevvy and Tanaka are our 1 and 2
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok so rather than just make sweeping generalizations in early May  
giantsFC : 5/9/2018 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13959549 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13959408 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


I can’t think of a single draft that can be labeled a complete bust yet. Drafts take time.



2013 looks awful. 2014 has Conforto and little else. It looks like Sandy's 1st draft was his best, Nimmo and Fulmer. I agree that drafts take time, but after 5 or 6 years, you can start to make assumptions, and my assumption is that those drafts weren't very good.


It's not like the 15 drafts before those were any good either....just sayin. It's an organizational flaw, not one person or one era.
Tanaka? What?  
Chris684 : 5/9/2018 4:40 pm : link
Ok.

He MIGHT  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 4:42 pm : link
leap frog Tanaka eventually but he is not better than Severino.

My main point is I doubt the Yankees would give up a ton for him.
A year ago I would've given up Gleyber for deGrom. Not now though.  
bceagle05 : 5/9/2018 4:45 pm : link
He'd be one of the few available starters who'd warrant such a prospect. No way Archer or Fullmer would. Assuming deGrom's elbow is OK, the Mets could get a king's ransom.
RE: A year ago I would've given up Gleyber for deGrom. Not now though.  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13959579 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
He'd be one of the few available starters who'd warrant such a prospect. No way Archer or Fullmer would. Assuming deGrom's elbow is OK, the Mets could get a king's ransom.


Whoa. Even knowing what yiu know now about Gleyber? I still wouldnt have. Id have goven up a similar package to what we gave Oakland for Gray. Maybe sthrown in McKinney.
No, I mean at the time, without having seen Gleyber.  
bceagle05 : 5/9/2018 4:52 pm : link
I doubt Cashman would've. Cubs gave up a top five prospect for Quintana, so the Mets would be crazy to accept anything less than that caliber of prospect, plus other fillers. I wouldn't trade Gleyber for any pitcher right now. That's why I'm not a GM.
Anyway, don't mean to turn a Mets thread into Yankees talk  
bceagle05 : 5/9/2018 4:54 pm : link
I'm just a sucker for conversations about roster construction/ rebuilding/etc.
RE: RE: A year ago I would've given up Gleyber for deGrom. Not now though.  
Jay on the Island : 5/9/2018 4:55 pm : link
In comment 13959582 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 13959579 bceagle05 said:


Quote:


He'd be one of the few available starters who'd warrant such a prospect. No way Archer or Fullmer would. Assuming deGrom's elbow is OK, the Mets could get a king's ransom.



Whoa. Even knowing what yiu know now about Gleyber? I still wouldnt have. Id have goven up a similar package to what we gave Oakland for Gray. Maybe sthrown in McKinney.

There is no way that offer would come close to getting a deal done.
Jay...it makes sense  
Chris684 : 5/9/2018 4:57 pm : link
if you think Tanaka is better than deGrom.

I'm assuming chopper doesnt watch deGrom pitch a lot.
Didn't the Mets just trade Mazzilli's son to the Yankees a few...  
Drewcon40 : 5/9/2018 4:59 pm : link
....weeks ago? At least there is an amicable relationship between GMs. If a deGrom trade with the Yankees helps restock this team and sets them up for the future, I could live with it. I am already being thanked by Jets fans for giving them Darnold as if I am on the staff so why not spread the wealth?
RE: He MIGHT  
Mad Mike : 5/9/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13959576 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
leap frog Tanaka eventually

Don't go too far out on a limb there.
RE: Jay...it makes sense  
chopperhatch : 5/9/2018 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13959596 Chris684 said:
Quote:
if you think Tanaka is better than deGrom.

I'm assuming chopper doesnt watch deGrom pitch a lot.


Ive watched him pitch. I think hes great. I just dont see how it would be an automatic switching of spots for Masa from 2 to 3. His last three and deGrom's are very similar. Tanaka went thru a really bad 3 game stretch that ballooned his ERA. They really have been quite similar in terms of production this year.

I echo bceagle about ruining this thread with Yanks talk. Just wanted to point out, I dont see the Yankees going real big on another RHP this year given what they did last year. And if they did, I think a lot would have to happen for the Yanks to drop Tanaka in the rotation for an acquisition.
Phillies, Blue Jays and Diamondbacks next up  
spike : 5/9/2018 7:09 pm : link
Gonna be a long week for the Amazins.
RE: Phillies, Blue Jays and Diamondbacks next up  
arcarsenal : 5/9/2018 7:16 pm : link
In comment 13959654 spike said:
Quote:
Gonna be a long week for the Amazins.


3-5.. if we're lucky.
RE: RE: Phillies, Blue Jays and Diamondbacks next up  
spike : 5/9/2018 7:26 pm : link
In comment 13959662 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13959654 spike said:


Quote:


Gonna be a long week for the Amazins.



3-5.. if we're lucky.

2-6 imo
RE: RE: .  
gmenatlarge : 5/10/2018 6:36 am : link
In comment 13959427 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13959419 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I didn't say the bullpen sucked, I said it was average/below average. That's what it is. That's what the numbers say.

My prediction: The Mets miss the postseason once again and it gets blamed on more injuries or things not going our way.. as usual. And then we'll try to do this all over again next year.



Ok fair enough. I have the bullpen in the top third in the league and we’ll be in the postseason hunt all year. We’ll see.


Post-season hunt???? Playoffs? Playoffs??? You are delusional this team is sinking fast and will be out of it by July 4th and probably sellers at the deadline!
I think everyone knew they weren't  
steve in ky : 5/10/2018 8:23 am : link
going to keep that pace when 10-1 and they likely aren't as bad as they look right now.
The helplessness as a fan….  
Drewcon40 : 5/10/2018 8:41 am : link
…is what is so deflating. Sure, I as one customer can refuse to buy tickets or merchandise. But in all seriousness, there is nothing I can do but be indifferent. As you guys know that is not possible. We all have our other teams. Even with the Eli mess last year, we all knew that the Mara and Tisch families care about their franchises. My comments may be empowering the Yankee fans who lurk but if you would just allow me to compare the ownership. I grew up in a time where the Mets and Yankees could actually be compared and discussed as fun. The Yankees with Don Mattingly, Rickey Henderson, Winfield, Dave Righetti, hell I remember Jack Clark as a Yankee and we had Doc, Darryl, Keith. I was excited for Gregg Jefferies! I wish we got to see interleague back then. But in the mid-to-late 90s, the Yankees built their core and that is when they became the franchise we know of today (I am sure this is arguable but it’s now I remember). Hell, I remember being so happy for them in 96 because they beat the Braves. Anyway, pulling myself back to the point. Is George and the Steinbrenner ownership now, care about their franchise and for the most part care about their fans. Now some Mets fans say “go root for the Yankees then”. That’s not how fandom works, unfortunately or I’d be a Penguins, Warriors and Eag…..ehhhhh no, but you get my point,

So now to the Mets. The Wilpons and Sandy (it appears) do not care for their fanbase. They hang on to this franchise after being in bed with Madoff (as one of you pointed out earlier) and do not invest in their team. The GM makes a snarky remark last fall when the Yankees added Giancarlo Stanton and he tells us “we have Nimmo”. Arcarsenal made a great observation in that we get one or two years of hope and then it is a decade long slump. I don’t know fellas (and ladies) I am just venting. There is nothing in the minor leagues, our major league roster is flawed. I would actually be more energized if they would move some of their valuable assets versus trying to scotch tape these holes on a sinking ship.

Legally no one can demand the Wilpons sell the team so here we are, stuck with ownership who will continue to embarrass us. What the owners do not get that it is us fans that pay (emotionally) for their futility.

I am not sure if some of you used to watch pro wrestling but the Yankees are the WWF and the Mets are WCW. McMahon is Steinbrenner. You know what in 1996-98, WCW briefly took over the industry. In a very short period of time, the Mets were the talk of the town (by the way I cringed at the “Take Back New York” shirts – it’s like does anyone know about teasing the baseball gods?) But in the end the WWF “won” the Monday Night War.

The major league team is struggling with veterans. The minor leagues aren’t producing anyone which in turn, why would I have any confidence in the scouting and player development staff in improving the pipeline. I fear this has to get worse before it has to get better! Sorry for the rant – it’s therapeutic, I guess.

I look forward to reading the Mets Minors posts.
Not advocating doing this...  
Metnut : 5/10/2018 9:20 am : link
repeat... not saying that the Mets should do this...

but, if you traded Thor, DeGrom, Cespedes, Conforto, Nimmo, Matz, Wheeler, Familia, Cabrera, Lagares, and anyone else, strip the entire thing bare as can be, the Mets would likely have one of the best collection of young/farm talent in baseball tomorrow. Can also add the #6 pick this year, a top pick in 2018 after tanking, and at least another top pick in 2019. They'd have tons of draft slot money to just load up on young talent. With the lowered payroll, maybe the Mets could go all-in on international prospects too.

Something similar worked for the Astros and Cubs. They'd have to get a new/good GM though, you wouldn't trust Sandy, Ricco or Omar to do a complete rebuild.
RE: Not advocating doing this...  
Jay on the Island : 5/10/2018 9:35 am : link
In comment 13960089 Metnut said:
Quote:
repeat... not saying that the Mets should do this...

but, if you traded Thor, DeGrom, Cespedes, Conforto, Nimmo, Matz, Wheeler, Familia, Cabrera, Lagares, and anyone else, strip the entire thing bare as can be, the Mets would likely have one of the best collection of young/farm talent in baseball tomorrow. Can also add the #6 pick this year, a top pick in 2018 after tanking, and at least another top pick in 2019. They'd have tons of draft slot money to just load up on young talent. With the lowered payroll, maybe the Mets could go all-in on international prospects too.

Something similar worked for the Astros and Cubs. They'd have to get a new/good GM though, you wouldn't trust Sandy, Ricco or Omar to do a complete rebuild.

That's what the Braves did also but the key is trading for/drafting the right players and developing them. The Mets should also invest heavily into international scouting.
They need to know  
spike : 5/10/2018 11:36 am : link
how to develop hitting prospects, something they sorely lack
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