For years and years, many posters pleaded for the return to the 3-4 defense. But I'm surprised I haven't seen more celebration on the site for its return.
The last time the Giants ran a 3-4 defense (1993), Dan Reeves was head coach. It's literally been a quarter of a century.
Psyched? Indifferent? Curious?
I think if you are just one dimensional, it hurts your chances of being successful. I think people are more excited for the type of football Bettcher brings in comparison to the Fewell/Spags eras.
LE Keith Hamilton
NT Stacey Dillard
RE Mike Fox
LOLB Corey Miller
LILB Carlton Bailey
RILB Michael Brooks
ROLB Lawrence Taylor
LCB Mark Collins
RCB Perry Williams/Corey Raymond
SS Myron Guyton
FS Greg Jackson
That's how long it has been.
As has been the case for the last 5+ seasons, it really all comes down to the offense. Can they hold the ball? Score points? Get touchdowns in the red zone? Is Eli capable of running an efficient offense any more?
If the offense sucks again, the defense won't matter - very little chance this defense will be historically good to the point where it can carry the team.
There's really no more strict 4-3 or 3-4 defenses anymore. It's all just a base package, but every year, a higher % of defensive snaps are being run out of hybrid formations.
I think the 3-4 might be a better use of our personnel, but what Bettcher has shown is he'll utilize a ton of different looks and personnel groupings.
There's really no more strict 4-3 or 3-4 defenses anymore. It's all just a base package, but every year, a higher % of defensive snaps are being run out of hybrid formations.
I think the 3-4 might be a better use of our personnel, but what Bettcher has shown is he'll utilize a ton of different looks and personnel groupings.
I originally thought that too... and they certainly are not going to be an old-fashioned 2-gap defense. But drafting Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, and R.J. McIntosh seems to clearly indicate that they intend to be in a 3-4 base more often than not. They have said the OLBs like Vernon, Martin, and Moss will be with the linebackers for two days of practice and then shift to defensive end for the third day (pass rush packages). So we'll see them with their hands in the ground at times too. But the personnel is rapidly shifting to more a 3-4 type of defense.
Since most of us are not all that familiar with The Betch it's just fun, will be, to watch it play out.
I am old enough to remember LT, but how would those D's have been without LT because let's face it there is no one resembling LT on the Giants today.
Those teams had good DL's but their signature was the LB's.
Do the Giants have the LB's to run a 3-4? That concerns me more than the DL.
And balance that against the recent successes the Giants have had with the 4-3. Just ask Brady, he's spoken about it many times. that Giants D against the best offense in the history of the NFL (at the time, not sure if they still are) in SB XLII was as legendary as Belichick's D in SB XXV IMO.
That NASCAR package when you have three players the quality of Strahan, Tuck and Osi is fun to watch and must be horrifying to play against.
Anyway, I'm obviously interested in seeing how it plays out, I think it will come down to personnel more than scheme.
and how often will they even be in base D? Some teams play only around 25 - 30% in base D.
Without consistent quick pressure I believe we will see easy completions against us and we will not get off the field. With starting DBs, unless you get early pressure, you are only as good as your weakest cover.
Greg from LI : 9:20 am : link : reply
...given how often over the past two decades the BBI peanut gallery has agitated for a return to the 3-4 for nostalgia reasons.
It always boggled my mind that each year people would call for a return to the 3-4 with the LB's we had on the roster.
Might as well have had an OL with an average weight of 230 pounds and have BBI'ers ask for a return to a power running game.
For random off topic example I think betch at times ran a 2 DT with one DT (not the 3/4 end) shade one side of the center and a safety in the gap ...or not....in the other side. Assume Vernon and Martin and those to similarly attack interior gaps maybe as often as they line up outside shoulder of an OT?
I feel like a 3-4 is more flexible for these hybrid types and it allows for adding more talent at a discount.
That's where the scheme gets fun, especially with an instinctive, and mobile rover SS in Collins.
Big question mark to me is can Olivier play OLB? He supposedly did this in Miami.
I expect to see Collins all over the field. I dont think we will have 4 LBs on the field a lot. Unless we are counting Collins as a LB in the way he sets up.
If the LBs play well everyone will be excited about the "return" of the 3-4. If they aren't up to it, nobody will see anything other than a bad defense.
He's averaged over 90% of all defensive snaps in his two seasons with the Giants. Seems like a lot for a DE/LB.
- whereas on those plays they may be functioning more like linesmen....or not:
The added heft of say, a Martin, that creates multiplicity in that if he goes into a gap next to (hill? Randomly or McIntosh) the DT has enough get off to rush pure and let Martin hit the guard for that one play...or more typically visa versa so the olb doesn't get worn down, but enough heft to cause dought in the guard as to who's coming through and who isn't.
Contrast that with Carter drops and Collins or Darian Thompson rushes, a true blitz, as neither of those players is a threat to obstruct or shove aside a guard.
They had to have been gassed at certain points.
I might be in the minority, but I've been very happy with Vernon's play. I've not seen him be a liability and he's shown he'll play through injuries. I think too many get caught up in his salary.
He's averaged over 90% of all defensive snaps in his two seasons with the Giants. Seems like a lot for a DE/LB.
I think that the team is setting up to have a healthy rotation along the DL this season. Tomlinson, Hill and possibly Francis can replace Snacks at NT to give him a breather.
RE: the scheme - whatever works. Problem with 4-3, you really need 2-3 -DTs who can stop run and push pocket a little. Then you need 3 DEs who can generate significant pass rush. You need that extra guy at DT and DE to spell the others and they need to play at high enough a level so there is not a significant drop in performance. That's why Vernon & JPP had to play so many reps. That was why Philly played fairly well.
The drafteds were done so for the new D and come from those backgrounds so they will be sponges,but just novices.
Big question mark to me is can Olivier play OLB? He supposedly did this in Miami.
Hopefully the typically "beefier" 3-4 LBs will be able to cover today's multi-set, 3, 4 and 5 WRs offenses.
Also, this roster was closer to having the personnel to make this move than most realized. It takes advantage of our best player in Snacks and it also puts our biggest money player in a position to succeed in Vernon. I did not like that we had so much money tied up on our DL yet could not get pressure with 4. Even prior to trading JPP, I felt the switch gave us a little more versatility to get another dynamic pass rusher in the mix that could attack the quarterback on a near every down basis.
Not that everybody in the NFL has had the same challenges in Offensive Line play like the Giants, but clearly O-line play has deteriorated to some degree across the league. And with that, a defense that can cause some pause/confusion with how the Offense, particularly the O-line, wants to operate seems like a successful path...
If the DC is smart enough and the key components are there, it is a positive move. I am confident one half of that is present. The personnel, there is a lot of wishful thinking in my opinion. The lack of edge presence, lack of a true FS, and durability questions with Goodson would have me worried. And we haven't mentioned the potential mess at CB.
At the end of the day either scheme can work it's just how the coaches fit their scheme to the personnel and how good the personnel are in the first place. There's almost no such thing as tough defense in the NFL anymore but a team that has 4 pro bowl level players starting should be competitive (Snacks, Collins, Jenkins, Ogletree).
I'll have to go watch a little Arizona film to refresh my memory on Bettcher's version of the 3-4 but from what I remember he dropped his ws OLB off the line often and slid his frontage over to resemble a 4 quite often.
This is the NY Giants defense we are talking about. They have switched two times since I have been watching the games over a 35-40 year period. When the Giants switch defensive styles it's a big deal.
When he was drafted I thought that Goodson would be a better fit as a 3-4 ILB due to his style of play. This team needs to add a talented ER next year but they could do fine with Vernon, Martin, Carter, and Moss.
Maybe it is easier to find 3-4 style LBs. At least they won't have to cover Jason Witten anymore, so that's a plus regardless of what they do.
The defense has been middle of the pack or worse for most of the past decade, and sometimes people just want to see change.
I just want to see a good defense on the field. I don't really care whether its a 4-3 or a 3-4.
It was probably more about the fact that there will never be another LT and that they could get guys like Strahan as dominant DEs.
If the Giants had not switched, JPP would still be here and the draft would have been about DBs and replacement LBs.
The 4-3 needs great DEs....not sure we have any right now.
The 3-4 needs great NT....which Snacks is one of the best!
So I am all for it
Also, this roster was closer to having the personnel to make this move than most realized. It takes advantage of our best player in Snacks and it also puts our biggest money player in a position to succeed in Vernon. I did not like that we had so much money tied up on our DL yet could not get pressure with 4. Even prior to trading JPP, I felt the switch gave us a little more versatility to get another dynamic pass rusher in the mix that could attack the quarterback on a near every down basis.
I'm souped about Vernon too, I expect a great year from him. He was kind of miscast as a 4-3 DE, a more natural fit as a hybrid 3-4 leo-joker-predator.
I also think JPP was team leader and still had some in his tank (despite hand injury he is only 29 years old!! )
I can easily see our Defense being team weakness
I am pumped!
My feeling was that your best pass rushers should -- to a degree -- determine which kind of formation you use. Guys like Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and JPP may not have fit a 3-4.
We all kind of saw how you . . . negate, shall we say, a 4-3 pass rusher by making Kiwanuka into a 4-3 LB. He was an OK LB, but drafted as a pure, 4-3 pass rusher. It would have been interesting to see him play his whole career in that role, but the DL was loaded, the LBs weren't and they were trying to get him on the field.
As we all know by now, Betcher's D is a multi-look hybrid -- NOT a traditional 3-4. But one PLUS to running it is that the Giants will need better LBs than they've had in decades.
At this point, Vernon is the only proven pass rusher on the team. Betcher seems smart enough to exploit that. He AND JPP were not enough to get to QBs last year. In the 4-3 SB years, the Giants always had THREE pass rushers. Just two never gets it done, and now they're down to just Vernon and a bunch of unproven guys (unless Ogletree provides some). Hopefully some of them will emerge as legit pass rushers, because they're gonna need to generate a rush from somewhere. Will it come from the Edge LBs? Will one of the new DLs turn into a Leonard Marshall? Who knows?
I honestly don't care what formation they use as long as they stop the run and rush the passer.
Looking forward to it.
Anything that will improve this critical area will be welcome.
Good to see quicker more mobile lbs in there to address the short and intermediate zones.
Hard to see any improvement in the back of the secondary and with regard to secondary depth...
So you can manufacture wide open pass run lanes.
It's not just the front 3 as you worry it may be. It's an insane blend.
Giants don't have an LT though - I DO believe having 4 down linemen every play is a liability in todays pass happy league - 3-4 offers more creativity and flexibility - if healthy, Giants should be VERY effective in this alignment.
Hell, Snacks is 2 men on his own anyway.
Couldnt have said it better.
Bettcher from what I have read runs more of a one gap 3-4 defense which is not the 3-4 defense that most Giants fans know from the 80's and early 90's. Also from what I have read the Giants will play in a nickel defense 605-70% of the time..
So its not important to me whether they run a 4-3 or a 3-4. Good defense is good defense.
However moving JPP opened the door wide for them to move to a 3-4 defense. Vernon can and has played off the line in Miami so its not something he is unfamiliar with.
Bottom Line.. i dont care what they call it.. as long as its good.
That's 6.
You have 5 defenders on the line or soon to be on the line. -Each- can at least occasionally smash face with a offensive linesman and defend that space. A few of your 5 could do that all game long, and defend both sides, i.e. two gaps... or all game long and just the one. But each of the five can do it to some degree.
Then. Each of your 5 can also jump gaps. Some more instantly than others, but, given a wide open gap all can do it, even big Harrison, and some can also create space for themselves as Harrison, Hill and Tomlinson should, others fly into it so quickly or use a blended technique maybe McIntosh. But given an unnacounted for spot all can do it.
Then, while doing that, all five are also able, to varying degrees, to get sideways and grab runners heading for gaps or ends -other than- the one that they just went through. Playing run on the way to the passer. All five but in various ways. So that should account for all six spots.
So it's infinitely variable.
Set plays. Known to all 11 defenders, so if weak spots are created in the line, on any given set plays, then those are accounted for by some of the other 6 players, in a scripted manner.
Then, obviously. Your remaining two lbs ought to have some PD chops and chase chops.
Zero.
3-4
4-3
5-2
4-7
Doesn't matter.
Do the Giants have the talent to raise this defense to respectability in 2018?
That's all the matters.
But glad to see JPP gone. Really hard to root for a team when it's star defensive player is taking 50% of the plays off.
And last but not least... one mo' chance for Eli Apple. If he fucks up, put it on Jerry Reese's tombstone.
what I am most concerned/excited for in this scheme change is to see our guys being put in positions to succeed. we give snacks room in the middle to dominate as NT, give OV a little more flexibility to stand up, come off the edge and rush the passe. bring Landon down in the box and let him shoot gaps to make big plays.
the past few years it has felt like we have been forcing these guys to play into specific roles within the system rather play into their strengths, and it seems by labeling this a change to a 3-4 front may be a signal they are moving away from that.
I'll have to go watch a little Arizona film to refresh my memory on Bettcher's version of the 3-4 but from what I remember he dropped his ws OLB off the line often and slid his frontage over to resemble a 4 quite often.
They had to have been gassed at certain points.
I might be in the minority, but I've been very happy with Vernon's play. I've not seen him be a liability and he's shown he'll play through injuries. I think too many get caught up in his salary.
The bad news: we don't have all the right pieces in place for it to work effectively yet. We need another OLB who can run the field, and until we see Lorenzo Carter in action it's hard to figure out who that will be.
The good news: lots of quality college programs use the 3-4, which means finding LBs and DLs accustomed to that system in the draft isn't that tough. I thought it was harder to find good 4-3 guys, actually.
I'm guessing we might have a really interesting and effective defense by 2020. But it'll take that long to get everything in place.
The 4-3 needs great DEs....not sure we have any right now.
The 3-4 needs great NT....which Snacks is one of the best!
So I am all for it
I am very happy, but don't think the 3-4 defense will take off until the Giants draft a top notch pass rushing OLB. I'm hoping Lorenzo Carter is that guy -- I was very happy with that pick. I'm not sure whether he'll be a true pass rushing specialist though.
But yeah, I think having a 3-4 brings more athleticism and versatility to the defense. I'd rather have a Von Miller than a J.J. Watt. Both elite defensive players and pass rushers, but I think the defensive coordinator can do more things with an OLB like Von Miller than they can do with J.J. Watt.
That too. Other teams' "tweeners" are a 3-4 team's gems.
I also think that those teams fare a little better in the short passing game than 4-3 teams do because, in theory, you have an additional mobile player that can play at least a little in that first ten yards of the LOS