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What's your interest level in the team shifting to the 3-4?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 9:04 am
For years and years, many posters pleaded for the return to the 3-4 defense. But I'm surprised I haven't seen more celebration on the site for its return.

The last time the Giants ran a 3-4 defense (1993), Dan Reeves was head coach. It's literally been a quarter of a century.

Psyched? Indifferent? Curious?
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Nervous.  
smshmth8690 : 5/16/2018 9:07 am : link
It's been so long since the Giants have focussed on the LB position.
Indifferent  
dep026 : 5/16/2018 9:08 am : link
in today;s game, you will see a bunch of different schemes, zones, man, 4 man front, blitzes, fake blitzes, etc....

I think if you are just one dimensional, it hurts your chances of being successful. I think people are more excited for the type of football Bettcher brings in comparison to the Fewell/Spags eras.
according to the Giants media guide  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 9:09 am : link
the starting defense in 1993:

LE Keith Hamilton
NT Stacey Dillard
RE Mike Fox
LOLB Corey Miller
LILB Carlton Bailey
RILB Michael Brooks
ROLB Lawrence Taylor
LCB Mark Collins
RCB Perry Williams/Corey Raymond
SS Myron Guyton
FS Greg Jackson

That's how long it has been.
I wasn't thrilled moving to the 4-3  
JonC : 5/16/2018 9:10 am : link
but grew to enjoy defenses built around dominant DEs and edge pressure.
while they have some pieces for the 3-4  
GiantNatty : 5/16/2018 9:11 am : link
I couldn't care less what you call it, I just want it to be effective. I suspect they'll show a lot of different looks so you can call it whatever you want.

As has been the case for the last 5+ seasons, it really all comes down to the offense. Can they hold the ball? Score points? Get touchdowns in the red zone? Is Eli capable of running an efficient offense any more?

If the offense sucks again, the defense won't matter - very little chance this defense will be historically good to the point where it can carry the team.
Very excited.  
Miamijints : 5/16/2018 9:12 am : link
I believe our run defense this year will be VERY stout upfront. If Eli Apple is truly back onboard this scheme fits his strengths also. Only thing that has me nervous is will Bettcher be a one and done coach?
Souped and amped  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/16/2018 9:12 am : link
Need a more "modern" defense. Dumbass Reese drove me nuts with rehash hiring of 4-3 Spags, he was completely oblivious to teams flying up the draft board to take projects and tweener 4-3 DEs like Ansah and Dion James. Completely oblivious to the fact players like Strahan are freak unicorns.
Alignments mean nothing to me  
Greg from LI : 5/16/2018 9:15 am : link
Run a good defense, that's all I ask.
I think dep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/16/2018 9:15 am : link
nailed it.

There's really no more strict 4-3 or 3-4 defenses anymore. It's all just a base package, but every year, a higher % of defensive snaps are being run out of hybrid formations.

I think the 3-4 might be a better use of our personnel, but what Bettcher has shown is he'll utilize a ton of different looks and personnel groupings.
Cannot wait  
Joey in VA : 5/16/2018 9:16 am : link
The 3-4 is more physical bludgeoning defense, which fits my personality.
I'm interested to see how this particular 3-4  
TheMick7 : 5/16/2018 9:16 am : link
is implemented. Coach B show a variety of formations out of it in Arizona so I assume we will see that & more here. Obviously his schemes will have to fit the personnel we have & he seems to be able to do that well! So overall I'd say I'm excited to see this Defense in action!
I'm most excited to see how  
giants#1 : 5/16/2018 9:17 am : link
Bettcher utilizes Collins. I think he can have a monster season.
Doesn't mean anything.  
Racer : 5/16/2018 9:18 am : link
Having the front office work with the D-coordinator to get him what he's asking for, stopping the run, and getting after the QB to close out games is what interests me.
RE: I think dep..  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 9:19 am : link
In comment 13965319 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
nailed it.

There's really no more strict 4-3 or 3-4 defenses anymore. It's all just a base package, but every year, a higher % of defensive snaps are being run out of hybrid formations.

I think the 3-4 might be a better use of our personnel, but what Bettcher has shown is he'll utilize a ton of different looks and personnel groupings.


I originally thought that too... and they certainly are not going to be an old-fashioned 2-gap defense. But drafting Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, and R.J. McIntosh seems to clearly indicate that they intend to be in a 3-4 base more often than not. They have said the OLBs like Vernon, Martin, and Moss will be with the linebackers for two days of practice and then shift to defensive end for the third day (pass rush packages). So we'll see them with their hands in the ground at times too. But the personnel is rapidly shifting to more a 3-4 type of defense.
Thrilled about The Betch  
idiotsavant : 5/16/2018 9:19 am : link
But fairly certain it's only a nominal 3/4 or 4/3 and..that in general that we will see attacking and actual multiplicity which was only a catchword for so many coaches.

Since most of us are not all that familiar with The Betch it's just fun, will be, to watch it play out.
I will agree, however, that I'm surprised there isn't more cheering  
Greg from LI : 5/16/2018 9:20 am : link
...given how often over the past two decades the BBI peanut gallery has agitated for a return to the 3-4 for nostalgia reasons.
This and Barkley  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2018 9:21 am : link
are the most interesting story lines this summer for me.

I am old enough to remember LT, but how would those D's have been without LT because let's face it there is no one resembling LT on the Giants today.

Those teams had good DL's but their signature was the LB's.

Do the Giants have the LB's to run a 3-4? That concerns me more than the DL.

And balance that against the recent successes the Giants have had with the 4-3. Just ask Brady, he's spoken about it many times. that Giants D against the best offense in the history of the NFL (at the time, not sure if they still are) in SB XLII was as legendary as Belichick's D in SB XXV IMO.

That NASCAR package when you have three players the quality of Strahan, Tuck and Osi is fun to watch and must be horrifying to play against.

Anyway, I'm obviously interested in seeing how it plays out, I think it will come down to personnel more than scheme.

and how often will they even be in base D? Some teams play only around 25 - 30% in base D.
Matters little unless we can generate routine blitzing pressure  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/16/2018 9:22 am : link
I expect this group to be very hard to run on with any consistency.

Without consistent quick pressure I believe we will see easy completions against us and we will not get off the field. With starting DBs, unless you get early pressure, you are only as good as your weakest cover.
3-4 defenses seem to move to the ball quicker on running plays  
Ira : 5/16/2018 9:22 am : link
.
I feel now a days ....  
Mike From Brielle : 5/16/2018 9:23 am : link
the label of 3/4 or 4/3 is not as relevant as it used to be. I believe most teams have labels on their defense but often depending on the situation and personnel package on the field the opposite label would be more applicable.
Greg..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/16/2018 9:24 am : link
and it was strictly out of nostalgia:

Quote:
I will agree, however, that I'm surprised there isn't more cheering
Greg from LI : 9:20 am : link : reply
...given how often over the past two decades the BBI peanut gallery has agitated for a return to the 3-4 for nostalgia reasons.


It always boggled my mind that each year people would call for a return to the 3-4 with the LB's we had on the roster.

Might as well have had an OL with an average weight of 230 pounds and have BBI'ers ask for a return to a power running game.
+1 what Eric said  
idiotsavant : 5/16/2018 9:26 am : link
But (Vernon, Martin and the heavy lbs) all that- plus interior gaps as well.

For random off topic example I think betch at times ran a 2 DT with one DT (not the 3/4 end) shade one side of the center and a safety in the gap ...or not....in the other side. Assume Vernon and Martin and those to similarly attack interior gaps maybe as often as they line up outside shoulder of an OT?
I love it  
Pep22 : 5/16/2018 9:27 am : link
the main reason is that it seems to me there are a lot of players that seem to slip thru the cracks because they are "tweeners" whether it be a 285 DE like RJ McIntosh or a jumbo sized LB like Lorenzo Carter

I feel like a 3-4 is more flexible for these hybrid types and it allows for adding more talent at a discount.
always said the same thing Fats  
Greg from LI : 5/16/2018 9:28 am : link
For years and years, people would lament how terrible the LBs were in one breath, and then in the next breath advocate putting more of them on the field. Insanity.
At times...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 9:28 am : link
this is basically going to look like 5-man fronts with our OLBs walked up to the line outside the tackles. It's going to be different.
RE: At times...  
JonC : 5/16/2018 9:30 am : link
In comment 13965352 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is basically going to look like 5-man fronts with our OLBs walked up to the line outside the tackles. It's going to be different.


That's where the scheme gets fun, especially with an instinctive, and mobile rover SS in Collins.
JonC  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 9:32 am : link
I'm hoping to see our three-man line being Tomlinson, Harrison, Hill. That's going to be really tough for anyone to move out.

Big question mark to me is can Olivier play OLB? He supposedly did this in Miami.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/16/2018 9:35 am : link
Vernon is going to have an excellent year. Being able to play OLB will allow him an extra step when rushing the passer, and his speed is his best attribute.
One thing not being mentioned  
dep026 : 5/16/2018 9:36 am : link
is how many times will they be in a 3-4 because of 3-4 WR sets. Its a passing league now. We are going to be in nickel/dime formations a lot as well.

I expect to see Collins all over the field. I dont think we will have 4 LBs on the field a lot. Unless we are counting Collins as a LB in the way he sets up.
I don't get excited about schemes  
Mike from Ohio : 5/16/2018 9:36 am : link
I get excited about players. When we had Strahan, Tuck and Osi it was easy to be excited about the 4-3 because it worked. In the 80s when we had LT, Banks, and Carson it was very easy to be excited about the 3-4. The players were good and were in the right scheme.

If the LBs play well everyone will be excited about the "return" of the 3-4. If they aren't up to it, nobody will see anything other than a bad defense.
I think  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2018 9:38 am : link
whatever they do with Vernon, they need to find a way to get him off the field a little bit.

He's averaged over 90% of all defensive snaps in his two seasons with the Giants. Seems like a lot for a DE/LB.
stats might be deceiving  
idiotsavant : 5/16/2018 9:39 am : link
If, for one example, a roster "olb" lines up outside shoulder of an OT, or in, near, an interior gap, some might count those both as 'blitz', since nominally they are lbs.

- whereas on those plays they may be functioning more like linesmen....or not:

The added heft of say, a Martin, that creates multiplicity in that if he goes into a gap next to (hill? Randomly or McIntosh) the DT has enough get off to rush pure and let Martin hit the guard for that one play...or more typically visa versa so the olb doesn't get worn down, but enough heft to cause dought in the guard as to who's coming through and who isn't.

Contrast that with Carter drops and Collins or Darian Thompson rushes, a true blitz, as neither of those players is a threat to obstruct or shove aside a guard.
pj..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/16/2018 9:41 am : link
that point flies under the radar. People have been very quick to judge that Vernon and JPP took plays off, but there were games where they played nearly every defensive snap.

They had to have been gassed at certain points.

I might be in the minority, but I've been very happy with Vernon's play. I've not seen him be a liability and he's shown he'll play through injuries. I think too many get caught up in his salary.
RE: I think  
Jay on the Island : 5/16/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13965367 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
whatever they do with Vernon, they need to find a way to get him off the field a little bit.

He's averaged over 90% of all defensive snaps in his two seasons with the Giants. Seems like a lot for a DE/LB.

I think that the team is setting up to have a healthy rotation along the DL this season. Tomlinson, Hill and possibly Francis can replace Snacks at NT to give him a breather.
Wonder how much  
bc4life : 5/16/2018 9:43 am : link
more wear and tear there will be on NT versus DT, having more double teams each game?

RE: the scheme - whatever works. Problem with 4-3, you really need 2-3 -DTs who can stop run and push pocket a little. Then you need 3 DEs who can generate significant pass rush. You need that extra guy at DT and DE to spell the others and they need to play at high enough a level so there is not a significant drop in performance. That's why Vernon & JPP had to play so many reps. That was why Philly played fairly well.
A little concerned  
old man : 5/16/2018 9:43 am : link
About how vets handle the conversion.
The drafteds were done so for the new D and come from those backgrounds so they will be sponges,but just novices.
People focus on the blitzing  
bc4life : 5/16/2018 9:44 am : link
The LBs will also have to be adept at coverage.
Thinks itís a mistake  
BillT : 5/16/2018 9:44 am : link
The 3-4 is a Ď90s, better angainst the run than the pass, defense that even Belichick has abandoned. Itís concentrated on LBs which in todayís NFL, where 60+% of the D is in nickel and dime packages, makes no sense to me. Youíre adding LBs to the roster while taking them off the field for DBs. On top of that wIth Tomlinson, Snacks and Vernon we had 3/4 of a great 4-3 DL. The Ogletree addition would have worked as well if he played a 4-3 WILL. Iím sure Iím not competent as an Xs and Os guy but Iím skeptical.
RE: JonC  
BIG FRED 1973 : 5/16/2018 9:44 am : link
In comment 13965358 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm hoping to see our three-man line being Tomlinson, Harrison, Hill. That's going to be really tough for anyone to move out.

Big question mark to me is can Olivier play OLB? He supposedly did this in Miami.
I was at temples coaching clinic in 2016 a few weeks after we signed Vernon and i spoke to Todd Bowles about Vernon and he said he is better as a 3-4 OLB than a D-end
I'm up for it and am siked......am just really worried about our CB's  
Andy in Boston : 5/16/2018 9:46 am : link
if we can't get pressure, we could be in real trouble and more so if Apple or Jenkins gets hurt.
I don't think this will be the standard 3-4 defense we were used to...  
Tom [Giants fan] : 5/16/2018 9:51 am : link
in the 80's and early 90's. This to me seems like it will be more of a hybrid 3-4. I am excited about it because I think it will be different snap to snap and will have offenses guessing what is coming from where.
More Curious Than Anything Else  
Trainmaster : 5/16/2018 9:51 am : link
As others have said, there are so many hybrid defenses that which defense is the base defense matters less than in the old days (it was great when Parcells/Belichick switched to a base 4-3 look in the playoffs against the 1990 Bears; it seemed to really throw Ditka off).

Hopefully the typically "beefier" 3-4 LBs will be able to cover today's multi-set, 3, 4 and 5 WRs offenses.
I like it  
AcesUp : 5/16/2018 9:53 am : link
I think it gives you the opportunity to find values in players through free agency and the draft that aren't otherwise there when running a traditional 4-3. Kareem Martin and Lorenzo Carter could pay huge dividends in this defense due to scheme and neither cost us a ton in resources.

Also, this roster was closer to having the personnel to make this move than most realized. It takes advantage of our best player in Snacks and it also puts our biggest money player in a position to succeed in Vernon. I did not like that we had so much money tied up on our DL yet could not get pressure with 4. Even prior to trading JPP, I felt the switch gave us a little more versatility to get another dynamic pass rusher in the mix that could attack the quarterback on a near every down basis.
Good defense is good defense...  
Klaatu : 5/16/2018 10:01 am : link
No matter how your front seven is constructed.
Interested in a defense that brings different looks all the time  
Jimmy Googs : 5/16/2018 10:02 am : link
and continues to pressure the Offense thru variation.

Not that everybody in the NFL has had the same challenges in Offensive Line play like the Giants, but clearly O-line play has deteriorated to some degree across the league. And with that, a defense that can cause some pause/confusion with how the Offense, particularly the O-line, wants to operate seems like a successful path...
BIG FRED 1973  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2018 10:04 am : link
Interesting...thanks!
There are always more options  
Sy'56 : 5/16/2018 10:09 am : link
with the front seven in a 3-4...little more difficult for an offense to plan for. However the right kind of personnel is needed, there are more potential holes for the offense to exploit.

If the DC is smart enough and the key components are there, it is a positive move. I am confident one half of that is present. The personnel, there is a lot of wishful thinking in my opinion. The lack of edge presence, lack of a true FS, and durability questions with Goodson would have me worried. And we haven't mentioned the potential mess at CB.
it's interesting that many traditionally good D's have preferred it  
Eric on Li : 5/16/2018 10:11 am : link
Steelers, Pats, Ravens in particular. All of Wade Phillips defenses, Rex Ryan. Hard to say but anecdotally I'd guess it's just a little bit easier to find personnel that fit the front 7 roles of a 3-4 than it is to find the 2-way defensive ends that a 4-3 demands to get a great pass rush.

At the end of the day either scheme can work it's just how the coaches fit their scheme to the personnel and how good the personnel are in the first place. There's almost no such thing as tough defense in the NFL anymore but a team that has 4 pro bowl level players starting should be competitive (Snacks, Collins, Jenkins, Ogletree).
it'll  
dorgan : 5/16/2018 10:16 am : link
look like a 50 most of the time, but it will also look like a 4-3 some of the time.

I'll have to go watch a little Arizona film to refresh my memory on Bettcher's version of the 3-4 but from what I remember he dropped his ws OLB off the line often and slid his frontage over to resemble a 4 quite often.

to me  
djm : 5/16/2018 10:17 am : link
the switch to 3-4 was as big as the decision to hire Shurmur and the decision to draft Barkley over a QB. If not, bigger.

This is the NY Giants defense we are talking about. They have switched two times since I have been watching the games over a 35-40 year period. When the Giants switch defensive styles it's a big deal.
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