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Mara has given Eli Manning everything....

sxdxca : 5/16/2018 10:47 pm
He went out and brought in a GM who has publicly said he has seen no drop off in Eli's arm or talent.

He went out and brought in an offensive minded coach , who has done wonders for other QB's , and has publicly said Eli has years left.

He used the 2nd overall pick in the entire draft to bring in Barkley , the most explosive RB in over a decade.

He used the 34th overall pick in the draft to bring in Hernandez , who may be the 2nd best guard in the entire draft.

He went out and signed , in fact overspent for the best LT in free agency , Solder.

He has what many consider to be one of the best WR's in the game , Beckham at age 25 coming back.

He has last years 1st rd pick Engram at TE , and an emerging star , lining up again for him.

He has Shepard , a 2nd rd pick at WR , who if he played a full 16 game season , would have put up a 1,000 yard season.

He also has a decent backup RB in Gallman , to spell Barkley from time to time.

Eli should be very grateful at 37 , that he has an owner who believes this much in him , considering how bad last year was.

Personally after comparing Eli's tape from 2004 to 2017 , it seems he hasn't lost too much on arm strength.

However I have seen a decline in his mobility , compared to 2004 , he is much slower , in fact very slow.

Mara has given Eli virtually everything he can to succeed.

It is now up to Eli to come through for his owner , team , and fans , and play QB at a championship level.

The question is will he?

We will have to wait and see


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Remember the morons who said Sanchez was the best QB in NY?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/17/2018 3:52 pm : link
They never left. Just as annoying now.
So what you're syaing is that if the QB was other than Elli  
Bill L : 5/17/2018 3:53 pm : link
and there was no WR or TE or RB on the team, they would no bring one on board? Because that is what his post pretty much said.
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/17/2018 3:59 pm : link
even this is complete horseshit:

Quote:
It's either going to be Mara's most courageous moves or one of the dumbest moves he's ever made. So the clock in ticking.


You've even made up what Mara's moves are! Your assumption was he hired Gettleman and Shurmur with the mandate to keep Eli and give him one more chance to win.

In your haste to try and work in a nod to "Jints Central", you don't even account for the fact that moves made are for the NY Giants to win, regardless of who the QB is.

You've set-up the hiring of the GM and HC and the drafted of a RB to be moves made with a sole purpose - around Eli.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say there are posters who are delusional and aspire conspiracy theories to what's going on.

For Christ's sake, you self-admittingly hold what Eli did in SD against him still. Even after you know it delivered 2 SB's, so it isn't exactly like you are rational.
It's so bad....  
Britt in VA : 5/17/2018 4:00 pm : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 4:10 pm : link
Don't you need skill players no matter who the QB is?

Some of the arguments people come up with here are mind-boggling. Who fucking cares who the QB is? If you need WR/TE/RB help, you go out and address it. Whether you have Drew Stanton or Eli Manning under center.

Needs are needs. They'd be needs no matter who the QB was.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 4:25 pm : link
Probably shouldn't have drafted Will Hernandez, either - just more giving Eli everything!
RE: .  
Mad Mike : 5/17/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13966864 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Probably shouldn't have drafted Will Hernandez, either - just more giving Eli everything!

It's gross how much they cater to that guy.
RE: .  
Bill L : 5/17/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13966858 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Don't you need skill players no matter who the QB is?

Some of the arguments people come up with here are mind-boggling. Who fucking cares who the QB is? If you need WR/TE/RB help, you go out and address it. Whether you have Drew Stanton or Eli Manning under center.

Needs are needs. They'd be needs no matter who the QB was.
I suppose it's possible that they are making an economic argument. I mean, if you only had a QB who wasn't Eli, even if it's Brady or even Cousins and you were paying that exorbitant salary, you'd save a boatload of money by not having to employ (and pay) those 51 other people.
RE: LOL...  
bw in dc : 5/17/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13966845 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


You've even made up what Mara's moves are! Your assumption was he hired Gettleman and Shurmur with the mandate to keep Eli and give him one more chance to win.


Not sure it was a direct mandate as much as it was what Mara certainly wanted - build a team around Eli. It's very laughable to deny that.

Do you think this sequence of events is just pro-Eli coincidence?

Accorsi was brought in to "consult". The man who selected Eli and the man who has said all along he thought Eli had something left.

Accorsi then helps Mara on his fake search and recommends a candidate in, oh, ten minutes. And that guy is Gettleman, a former Accorsi right hand man, and former member of Jints Central (a major trait that Mara likes). And a guy who was there when Eli was selected. And a guy who quickly comes out after five minutes of "watching film" that he thinks Eli has something left.

And then Shurmur is selected as coach, who was a total bust in Cleveland, but just did reclamation work on Case Keenum. Hmmmm - a reclamation project guy. Perfect! That's what we need - someone to rehabilitate Eli.

The final piece of the "keep Eli" puzzle.

But I guess all of that is mere coincidence, right?

But bw, maybe all those guys believe they can get  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 4:41 pm : link
what they need out of Eli in the next 2 years?

It also could be some level of group-think albeit far less of the conspiracy you are suggesting...
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 4:41 pm : link
In comment 13966868 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13966858 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Don't you need skill players no matter who the QB is?

Some of the arguments people come up with here are mind-boggling. Who fucking cares who the QB is? If you need WR/TE/RB help, you go out and address it. Whether you have Drew Stanton or Eli Manning under center.

Needs are needs. They'd be needs no matter who the QB was.

I suppose it's possible that they are making an economic argument. I mean, if you only had a QB who wasn't Eli, even if it's Brady or even Cousins and you were paying that exorbitant salary, you'd save a boatload of money by not having to employ (and pay) those 51 other people.


I just don't understand the angle there at all. Shouldn't any team be looking for skill position talent no matter who they are or who is under center?

Are the Packers out there thinking "well, Aaron is good enough to carry the offense himself - we don't really need to be paying or drafting skill guys here..." ?

It would be pretty shitty team-building if they were.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the record..  
chopperhatch : 5/17/2018 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13966801 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13966787 chopperhatch said:


Quote:



And now youve proven to use that term only to provoke. What a fucking child.



You desperately need to get a sense of humor. To find the term Jints Central somehow provoking is very strange.


Dude, I have a very good sense of humor. You literally say Jint Central to get a rise out of people. Not me really, I had just been noticing it recently and find it pathetic.

Carry on bw, but you know what youre doing and its sophmoric at best, irritating at the least.
I kinda think I need to change my handle  
exiled : 5/17/2018 5:09 pm : link
to EliFanboy
RE: it's hilarious  
chopperhatch : 5/17/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13966794 Les in TO said:
Quote:
and entertaining to watch people get so irate over the use of terms like Jints Central or Eli Fanboy club. Eric would make a lot of money serving up anger management ads.


Then what you find as being funny is as stupid as your posts. God you suck.
RE: .  
sxdxca : 5/17/2018 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13966858 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Don't you need skill players no matter who the QB is?

Some of the arguments people come up with here are mind-boggling. Who fucking cares who the QB is? If you need WR/TE/RB help, you go out and address it. Whether you have Drew Stanton or Eli Manning under center.

Needs are needs. They'd be needs no matter who the QB was.


That's not the truth

In 2016 with Beckham the giants offense averaged 19 points per game.

Management said, the reason why we r struggling is because we don't have a te that can run up the seam.

So they drafted engram in 2017 with a preconcieved agenda , to give eli the skill position player he needed to for an explosive offense.

Beckham got hurt, but engram was inserted.

The offense went from 19 points per game in 2016, to averaging 15 points per game in 2017.

That means that your defense cannot allow more than 12-13 points per game for your team to win.

I'm telling the truth

RE: But bw, maybe all those guys believe they can get  
bw in dc : 5/17/2018 5:22 pm : link
In comment 13966881 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
what they need out of Eli in the next 2 years?

It also could be some level of group-think albeit far less of the conspiracy you are suggesting...


I don't think it's so much conspiratorial. It's more esoteric - Mara surrounded himself with a small group of football people who were going to be in lockstep with his thinking on Eli. Can you seriously deny that the pieces that fell into place - these new arrivals - could all have been predicted to be pro-Eli?

Again and this gets lost in the sauce, I get the idea. It's a strategy. I just think it's a strategy that came at the expense of an opportunity - long term - to add a QB from a QB rich draft (those prospects rated much higher than KLauletta).

FMiC creates this illusion that I'm suggesting Mara is operating a CIA black ops site at Jints Central... ;)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the record..  
bw in dc : 5/17/2018 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13966894 chopperhatch said:
Quote:


Dude, I have a very good sense of humor. You literally say Jint Central to get a rise out of people. Not me really, I had just been noticing it recently and find it pathetic.

Carry on bw, but you know what youre doing and its sophmoric at best, irritating at the least.


Again, and I'm all ears, how the hell does a term like Jints Central - which I have explained is a term I read in the NYDN in the '80s and '90s - create a rise in people?

I have literally used that ever since I started posting here back in the mid-90s. It really is nothing new, just a term that I can use to cover all the bases of the the decision makers - Mara, GM, DPP, HC, etc. Instead of writing out Mara, Gettlemen et al, Jints Central covers all of that real estate.

You guys act like I'm using the N word... ;)
It could be simply a function..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/17/2018 5:55 pm : link
of the fact that you rarely if ever talk about the organization glowingly why there is a negative perception of Jints Central.

You don't use it as a simple description - you use it to describe an organization that had to be "saved" by Rozelle and had silver spoon owners. It's never used to talk about the positives, like "the 4 Lombardi trophies housed at Jints Central", and you know exactly why and the context in how it is used. To suggest otherwise is just horseshit.

And the discussion is almost always about incompetence. That same incompetence that filled the trophy case.

I still don't even understand this:
Quote:
I don't think it's so much conspiratorial. It's more esoteric - Mara surrounded himself with a small group of football people who were going to be in lockstep with his thinking on Eli. Can you seriously deny that the pieces that fell into place - these new arrivals - could all have been predicted to be pro-Eli?


Shumur was going to be "pro-Eli"?? Under what evidence? The guy has seldomly worked with a QB with Eli's makeup. He generally has been with semi-mobile QB's who he has to coach to read defenses and hide issues with arm strength.

You are just trying to fit a narrative, just like you do the majority of the time you act like the franchise is the bumbling one from the 70's. That's been widely disproven and most wise people have moved on.

RE: RE: But bw, maybe all those guys believe they can get  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13966906 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13966881 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


what they need out of Eli in the next 2 years?

It also could be some level of group-think albeit far less of the conspiracy you are suggesting...



I don't think it's so much conspiratorial. It's more esoteric - Mara surrounded himself with a small group of football people who were going to be in lockstep with his thinking on Eli. Can you seriously deny that the pieces that fell into place - these new arrivals - could all have been predicted to be pro-Eli?

Again and this gets lost in the sauce, I get the idea. It's a strategy. I just think it's a strategy that came at the expense of an opportunity - long term - to add a QB from a QB rich draft (those prospects rated much higher than KLauletta).

FMiC creates this illusion that I'm suggesting Mara is operating a CIA black ops site at Jints Central... ;)


But I think you said it yourself...this regime has a strategy and some part of it revolves around having Eli be the QB this year. So they all got on board with it, whether each was advocating it or relunctantly going along with it because the alternative was less attractive.

And yes it came at the expense of an opportunity. But that doesn't mean its a loss...we still have a great asset in Barkley and there will indeed be other opportunities to get a QB if we need one. I stipulate it might be far more costly to pursue opportunity in future...but again that is their strategy.

At least as of now...that can change if Eli continues his decline and neither backup progresses into the role.
RE: RE: RE: But bw, maybe all those guys believe they can get  
bw in dc : 5/17/2018 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13966927 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


And yes it came at the expense of an opportunity. But that doesn't mean its a loss...we still have a great asset in Barkley and there will indeed be other opportunities to get a QB if we need one. I stipulate it might be far more costly to pursue opportunity in future...but again that is their strategy.



No qualms with much of that.

I just weigh the expense of the lost opportunity part more than you. It's early, but that crop of QBs that will be eligible for drafting the next two years is ordinary at best. So that is why I think we messed up the draft equation this year by going RB 1st, QB later, versus QB first, then RB later.

RE: It could be simply a function..  
chopperhatch : 5/17/2018 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13966926 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
of the fact that you rarely if ever talk about the organization glowingly why there is a negative perception of Jints Central.

You don't use it as a simple description - you use it to describe an organization that had to be "saved" by Rozelle and had silver spoon owners. It's never used to talk about the positives, like "the 4 Lombardi trophies housed at Jints Central", and you know exactly why and the context in how it is used. To suggest otherwise is just horseshit.

And the discussion is almost always about incompetence. That same incompetence that filled the trophy case.

I still don't even understand this:


Quote:


I don't think it's so much conspiratorial. It's more esoteric - Mara surrounded himself with a small group of football people who were going to be in lockstep with his thinking on Eli. Can you seriously deny that the pieces that fell into place - these new arrivals - could all have been predicted to be pro-Eli?



Shumur was going to be "pro-Eli"?? Under what evidence? The guy has seldomly worked with a QB with Eli's makeup. He generally has been with semi-mobile QB's who he has to coach to read defenses and hide issues with arm strength.

You are just trying to fit a narrative, just like you do the majority of the time you act like the franchise is the bumbling one from the 70's. That's been widely disproven and most wise people have moved on.


Exactly this. It's in a mocking way that you refer to the team as that. And you never use any other word or words to refer to the organization which there are many.

Again, I'm not hung on it, but you sound like kind of a needling prick (even though I don't think you are that and a few posters I respect know and like you) when you do say it. I promise never to bring it up again.
Eric is right - Eli has been in decline for 2 years  
WillieYoung : 5/17/2018 6:54 pm : link
I'll be rooting for him to play like he did against Philly last year in the second game. But it is more hope than expectation.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13966903 sxdxca said:
Quote:
In comment 13966858 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Don't you need skill players no matter who the QB is?

Some of the arguments people come up with here are mind-boggling. Who fucking cares who the QB is? If you need WR/TE/RB help, you go out and address it. Whether you have Drew Stanton or Eli Manning under center.

Needs are needs. They'd be needs no matter who the QB was.



That's not the truth

In 2016 with Beckham the giants offense averaged 19 points per game.

Management said, the reason why we r struggling is because we don't have a te that can run up the seam.

So they drafted engram in 2017 with a preconcieved agenda , to give eli the skill position player he needed to for an explosive offense.

Beckham got hurt, but engram was inserted.

The offense went from 19 points per game in 2016, to averaging 15 points per game in 2017.

That means that your defense cannot allow more than 12-13 points per game for your team to win.

I'm telling the truth


I still have no fucking idea what point you're trying to make. What does any of that have to do with Eli?

Also, when did management say "the reason we are struggling is because we don't have a TE who can run up the seam" ?

That sounds made up.

Maybe we drafted a TE because we had one of the worst TE groups in the entire league before we selected Engram. No... can't be!

Really, it actually can be that simple. TE was a problem and it has nothing to do with who the QB is or isn't. We needed a better player there. Unless you thought Larry Donnell was getting the job done.

But sure - let's just keep on going with this ridiculous narrative that everything is just a way to cater to Eli...

Bizarre.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 7:05 pm : link
The offense averaged 15 PPG because all of our WR's got hurt in Week 5, we had a terrible offensive line, a crappy stable of RB's, and a head coach who had no idea what he was doing.

Eli didn't play well either. But who is playing well under those circumstances outside of Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson?

If you want to name a QB with a worse situation, go on ahead.
Just look at..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/17/2018 7:14 pm : link
the way the narratives have shifted since November:

- Mara will never fire the Coach and GM in season. They will wait until the end. It is the Giants way. They were fired
- They will pick an in house yes man to carry out Mara's wishes. They hire Gettleman and posters go "A Ha! Told you" despite the fact Gettleman's past suggests he's not a yes mean. Even if that point is granted....
- They will pick a coach with ties to the team or Gettleman (or Belicheck). Then they don't.
- They are definitely picking a QB at #2. Then they don't

So now the narrative shifts to the incompetent Mara giving a directive and brainwashing everyone into thinking that we need to save face over Eli's benching, even insinuating Shurmur was hired for this reason and Barkley was drafted for this reason.

People wanted a housecleaning. They got a housecleaning. And they still bitch and moan.Sorry if I find bitching and moaning in the face of false narratives annoying, but they are fucking annoying.
Replacing a non-entity at TE with a quality TE  
Bill L : 5/17/2018 7:16 pm : link
Or a shitty WR with a great one are decisions that stand on their own. It’s doesnt matter if the QB is Eli or Brady or Red Grange.

Geez, I spend my day job dealig with shitty unfounded hypothesis getting in the way of knowledge. At least my life is consistent.

And, to show how diabolical Mara really is, they draft OBJ 4 Year’s ago and draft Engram coming off a playoff experience all in anticipation of not taking a QB in 2018. No wonder Mara is rich; he’s a freaking psychic.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 7:31 pm : link
It just makes no sense to me. The offense has struggled the last two seasons. Yes, part of that was because of Eli - but not all of it was because of Eli.

If your offense is struggling, isn't the fucking point to upgrade it and improve it?

We didn't draft Evan Engram to save Eli's career. We drafted Evan Engram because the TE play in the pass game had been absolutely atrocious.

Can someone please name a situation a team could be in with a QB where they can simply ignore the skill positions?

Because as far as I know, when you have a young QB, you want to give him weapons to succeed with. When you have a vet QB, you also want to give him weapons to succeed with.

When do teams not look to upgrade skill positions because of their QB? Either you have good players at these positions, or you don't. If you don't, you need to draft or sign them. That's kind of how the league works.
arc..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/17/2018 7:40 pm : link
and basically, 2016 shoots holes in most of the theories.

The $200M spend on the D which directly led to the playoff berth had nothing to do with Eli. It was about improving the team. It also followed Coughlin getting fired, which came on the heels of two historically bad defenses.
RE: djm  
SGMen : 5/17/2018 7:47 pm : link
In comment 13966740 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Despite the playoff appearance, Eli's play noticeably (and statistically) declined in 2016. It fell off again in 2017. He's on a 2-year downward trend. Are there excuses? Sure. But he's also part of the equation.
agreed. Mobility is an issue. Arm not so much.
RE: arc..  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 8:09 pm : link
In comment 13966991 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and basically, 2016 shoots holes in most of the theories.

The $200M spend on the D which directly led to the playoff berth had nothing to do with Eli. It was about improving the team. It also followed Coughlin getting fired, which came on the heels of two historically bad defenses.


Blows my mind, man. Some of the stuff people come up with here. Absolutely ridiculous.
Fat man nailed it  
joeinpa : 5/17/2018 8:43 pm : link
There are a lot of false narratives being presented like fact. At the very least they are opinions being stated as fact
The narrative of getting a TE that can get downfield (in the seam)  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 9:18 pm : link
was not false though.

One widely heard view of the problem with the Giant offense in 2016 was that Cover 2 was shutting down OBJ's effectiveness. He still made plenty of plays but many of them were on shorter passes or when the defense was not in Cover 2. Two ways to combat that were effectively running the ball (which we couldn't do) and/or find a TE that can get down the field.

Engram was the type of TE in response to that.

And, of course, the Giants needed a good TE anyway...
just sayin'  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 9:19 pm : link
it wasn't made up...
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 9:30 pm : link
I understand why they drafted Engram and know that we were being stifled by C2 looks because we had no one who could bust the seam - I'm saying that I don't recall management coming out and blaming the struggles of the Giants on that. Or even commenting on it like that at all.

Fans recognized it, it was an obvious problem.

This is why we drafted Evan Engram:

2013: Brandon Myers, Larry Donnell, Bear Pascoe
2014: Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Adrien Robinson
2015: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Daniel Fells
2016: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Jerrell Adams

End of story.
RE: The narrative of getting a TE that can get downfield (in the seam)  
chopperhatch : 5/17/2018 9:30 pm : link
In comment 13967041 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
was not false though.

One widely heard view of the problem with the Giant offense in 2016 was that Cover 2 was shutting down OBJ's effectiveness. He still made plenty of plays but many of them were on shorter passes or when the defense was not in Cover 2. Two ways to combat that were effectively running the ball (which we couldn't do) and/or find a TE that can get down the field.

Engram was the type of TE in response to that.

And, of course, the Giants needed a good TE anyway...


He was also apparently the best player left on the board now we look back right? I mean, I know that Engram was my choice and certainly not yours Googs, but looking back, Engram is tremendous value there.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/17/2018 9:33 pm : link
the narratives have been very clear.

After 2015, it was to make changes from another sub.500 year with multiple losses late in the game, some seemingly coaching errors, most from horrific defending. Coughlin was fired. $200M was pumped into the defense

After 2016, it was to ride the wave of a great defensive season and shore up the TE position to make another run at the playoffs

After 2017, it was to clean house of a HC who lost the team, a GM who had several poor drafts and failed to improve the OL and LB positions, and to improve an offense which hadn't scored more than 20 points in what seems like a millennial.

None of those narratives are based on anything but intending to improve the team, either positionally or in leadership.

If you are looking for other narratives, you're basically making shit up or completely misreading what's happened. Hindsight is usually a good tool to make things clearer on what's happened in the past, so why is it routinely ignored here?
RE: .  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 9:37 pm : link
In comment 13967052 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I understand why they drafted Engram and know that we were being stifled by C2 looks because we had no one who could bust the seam - I'm saying that I don't recall management coming out and blaming the struggles of the Giants on that. Or even commenting on it like that at all.

Fans recognized it, it was an obvious problem.

This is why we drafted Evan Engram:

2013: Brandon Myers, Larry Donnell, Bear Pascoe
2014: Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Adrien Robinson
2015: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Daniel Fells
2016: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Jerrell Adams

End of story.


I kind of recall the Giants commenting on it with some of the coach pressers but not a lot (for obvious reasons). But i think we all agree it was a major problem.

I pined for a decent TE for years so we don't have to go down that path. But Engram certainly fit the bill on trying to solve for Cover 2, although a better oline and running game would have done the same.
The Giants TEs and RBs since our last Super Bowl  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2018 9:40 pm : link
have been toward the bottom, or even dead last as far as talent goes, during that timespan. There’s only so many years you can get away with ignoring it, especially as the league evolves and features TEs who can stretch the field and RBs that are a dual threat, killing you with route running.

If we cut Eli Manning we’d still make these kind of moves. I don’t what what else there is to say about it.
RE: RE: The narrative of getting a TE that can get downfield (in the seam)  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 9:47 pm : link
In comment 13967053 chopperhatch said:
Quote:


He was also apparently the best player left on the board now we look back right? I mean, I know that Engram was my choice and certainly not yours Googs, but looking back, Engram is tremendous value there.


chopper - I have always said I loved Engram the player but always felt he was a bit early to go at #23. But he was the clear target it seems. Would have loved some creativity here to drop back a bit, pick up some extra collateral, and still have gotten Engram. I liked the tackles Robinson and Rymacezk (sp?). Looks like all 3 turned into good value picks so no worries...
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13967058 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13967052 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I understand why they drafted Engram and know that we were being stifled by C2 looks because we had no one who could bust the seam - I'm saying that I don't recall management coming out and blaming the struggles of the Giants on that. Or even commenting on it like that at all.

Fans recognized it, it was an obvious problem.

This is why we drafted Evan Engram:

2013: Brandon Myers, Larry Donnell, Bear Pascoe
2014: Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Adrien Robinson
2015: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Daniel Fells
2016: Larry Donnell, Will Tye, Jerrell Adams

End of story.



I kind of recall the Giants commenting on it with some of the coach pressers but not a lot (for obvious reasons). But i think we all agree it was a major problem.

I pined for a decent TE for years so we don't have to go down that path. But Engram certainly fit the bill on trying to solve for Cover 2, although a better oline and running game would have done the same.


It's possible - OP just painted it in a way that made it sound like the Giants blamed everything on that which seemed a bit disingenuous, but I don't really disagree with anything you said.

TE was a position of major need. We put crap there for several years after Bennett left for Chicago. I think most of us recognized that it was necessary regardless of the QB.
RE: Can this be sung t the tune of  
Ron from Ninerland : 5/17/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13966204 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
Dayenu?
Best comment in this thread
RE: RE: RE: .  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2018 10:04 pm : link
In comment 13967071 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


It's possible - OP just painted it in a way that made it sound like the Giants blamed everything on that which seemed a bit disingenuous, but I don't really disagree with anything you said.

TE was a position of major need. We put crap there for several years after Bennett left for Chicago. I think most of us recognized that it was necessary regardless of the QB.


Of course...clear need whether we had Eli or Joe Shmoe.

A lot of talking past each other within this thread (nothing new I guess) as folks try to navigate their stories/personalities for typical reasons...
RE: RE: RE: The narrative of getting a TE that can get downfield (in the seam)  
chopperhatch : 5/17/2018 11:55 pm : link
In comment 13967065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13967053 chopperhatch said:


Quote:




He was also apparently the best player left on the board now we look back right? I mean, I know that Engram was my choice and certainly not yours Googs, but looking back, Engram is tremendous value there.



chopper - I have always said I loved Engram the player but always felt he was a bit early to go at #23. But he was the clear target it seems. Would have loved some creativity here to drop back a bit, pick up some extra collateral, and still have gotten Engram. I liked the tackles Robinson and Rymacezk (sp?). Looks like all 3 turned into good value picks so no worries...


Commenting on ur post before this one to save space, I agree the Giants wanted and coveted a dynamic TE for years. Ebron was talked about the year we drafted Beckham. The next year, Hunter Henry was our target before the Chargers grabbed him and we took Shep.

Engram I think was a diff beast that also fit a need. You can make the argument that he was the most effective rookie in the league last year and his athleticism being off the charts, he certainly seems like the BPA. As far as trading down, it was widely known that the Falvons were trying to trade ahead of the Giants to take him. So it was 1st round or not at all to take EE
Chopper - Atlanta was all-in on taking a pass rusher  
Jimmy Googs : 5/18/2018 12:02 am : link
that year. They were overjoyed when Mckinley made it to their pick. I know some folks in the franchise.
I also agree Engram would not make it to 46  
Jimmy Googs : 5/18/2018 12:09 am : link
so Giants had to pull trigger if they didn't want/couldn't move down a bit further from #23.

Nevertheless, despite some drops in Yr 1 Engram certainly looks the part of a productive TE needed to help this Offense get untracked once we get everybody on the field together. Really good player.
RE: Chopper - Atlanta was all-in on taking a pass rusher  
chopperhatch : 5/18/2018 12:23 am : link
In comment 13967137 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
that year. They were overjoyed when Mckinley made it to their pick. I know some folks in the franchise.


I wont argue the point if you have those connections to the Falcs. But I had heard that the Falcons (or maybe it was the Saints) were crazy about Engram.

Either way, I dont view him as just filling a need. I always thought of him as a game changer. Only guy i wanted more was Reddick and Howard (whoops!).
RE: Can this be sung t the tune of  
royhobbs7 : 5/18/2018 9:40 am : link
In comment 13966204 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
Dayenu?


Jay in Toronoto:

That was one of the best comments I have ever seen on this thread?!?!?!!

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Bottom LIne  
royhobbs7 : 5/18/2018 9:44 am : link
ARE WE ALL IN ON ELI?????\

Yes we are!
And why not?
Eli still has it. He can be excellent if given even another 1/2 second to throw provided that he has a running game which gives him, his favorite play-action fake (which Eli needs to be effective).
I.e., if the opposing defense has to even pause for one second to think about the run, someone is going to get open.
We have not had that since 2012; i.e., there was no reason for the opposition's defense to even consider the run because it was so inept!
Eli at 37  
royhobbs7 : 5/18/2018 9:46 am : link
Wan't Peyton's best year at 37?
Might there possibly be a genetic component here?
RE:  
steve in ky : 5/22/2018 3:01 am : link
In comment 13966906 bw in dc said:
Quote:


I don't think it's so much conspiratorial. It's more esoteric - Mara surrounded himself with a small group of football people who were going to be in lockstep with his thinking on Eli. Can you seriously deny that the pieces that fell into place - these new arrivals - could all have been predicted to be pro-Eli?


It's kind of funny but I view it as the opposite in that Reese was the guy whom Mara and he had gotten so comfortable working along side that possibly that familiarity created the situation to where it began to maybe allow Mara too much influence into the process. And in hiring DG Mara has went away from that and with a stronger willed GM who will lean less on ownerships input and more on his own convictions.
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