Mets fans have been through endless crap. I'll never understand why people are surprised by the way they react to the ebbs and flows the way they do. This franchise has done zilch to deserve any sort of benefit of the doubt.
go back to April, some fans had huge highly unrealistic expectations for the rotation. Now they're upset and distraught over a few losing streaks.
RE: I’m not far off from what you’re saying Metnut Â
I also think this is roughly a 88 win team before deadline additions so I’m not overly concerned. If this team didn’t have any catastrophic blows again like last year and still finished below 88 I’d have no problem with Sandy taking the hit.
There's definitely some upside on this year's team, so it's not impossible that they can pull it off.
Like I said in my post way above (but only a few hours ago), I'm really hoping for big weeks from Rosario/Conforto and maybe even some reasonable pitching aside from the two aces.
I get your point that's its a bit harsh for me to be calling for Sandy and setting a hard line with results this year, but I'm less lenient because been here so long. I think a fresh look from outside the organization is in and of itself usually a good thing because things can get stagnant after a while.
All I'm saying is that you're kidding yourself if you think the play-in game is "the postseason". When the Yankees lost to Houston in the 2015 play-in, I sure as hell didn't feel like they were truly a playoff team. Yes, for historical purposes MLB counts the stats as postseason statistics, but that's letter of the law only. But since you're more of a propagandist than a fan, I'm not surprised that you want to pretend that there's no distinction.
I was simply stating what it is considered in terms of MLB rule. I could care less what fans view it as what.
We didn't make the postseason. We made the play in game. And we lost.
Glad that was enough for you to enjoy the season. I'd like a little more than that one of these days... maybe something a little more like what's going on across town... where play in game losses aren't considered successful and the bar is set just a little bit higher.
Again, the one game playoff is considered the postseason. All statistics in the game count towards postseason record.
So, losing a play in game and not playing in an actual series is enough for you as a fan?
When do you expect the Mets to be actual contenders? You keep dancing around the question.
RE: RE: I’m not far off from what you’re saying Metnut Â
I also think this is roughly a 88 win team before deadline additions so I’m not overly concerned. If this team didn’t have any catastrophic blows again like last year and still finished below 88 I’d have no problem with Sandy taking the hit.
There's definitely some upside on this year's team, so it's not impossible that they can pull it off.
Like I said in my post way above (but only a few hours ago), I'm really hoping for big weeks from Rosario/Conforto and maybe even some reasonable pitching aside from the two aces.
I get your point that's its a bit harsh for me to be calling for Sandy and setting a hard line with results this year, but I'm less lenient because been here so long. I think a fresh look from outside the organization is in and of itself usually a good thing because things can get stagnant after a while.
We are seeing what this team can be in glimpses. Wheeler and Matz have been up and down but are still talented. Our aces take a ton of pressure off everyone else when they are going well. The pen can be fantastic, especially when Swarzak returns. Rosario, Conforto, and others are starting to flash. The lineup can produce if a healthy Cespedes ever join them. There’s going to be ups and downs all year but there is a ton of talent here, even if it’s still a bit raw and undefined. We will keep tweaking and adjusting and we will continue to improve over the summer months.
We didn't make the postseason. We made the play in game. And we lost.
Glad that was enough for you to enjoy the season. I'd like a little more than that one of these days... maybe something a little more like what's going on across town... where play in game losses aren't considered successful and the bar is set just a little bit higher.
Again, the one game playoff is considered the postseason. All statistics in the game count towards postseason record.
So, losing a play in game and not playing in an actual series is enough for you as a fan?
When do you expect the Mets to be actual contenders? You keep dancing around the question.
This sounds purposely obtuse considering it was a season directly following a World Series and National League pennant. You know damn well this has been a talented roster over the last few years and if we make the postseason this year 2017 will be considered the anomaly... not 2015.
How many here are fans of other N.Y. sports teams and don’t understand the concept of catastrophic injuries. Only with the Mets it’s considered an excuse. If Lebron goes down for the year with the Cavs apparently it’s the Cavs fault! Those stupid San Fran Giants should have known Bumgarner would go down last year!! Morons!! The 2016 team made a one game playoff without a slew of its best players. As if Jacob fucking DeGrom wouldn’t have made that team better? Nope. No excuses. The whole team could get hit by a bus and hospitalized! No excuses!
It’s one thing to be irrational and blame every little injury on something but complete catastrophic knockout blows to your core players like Thor, Cespedes, Conforto, Familia, etc... at some point you just have throw your hands up and call it a lost season and look at the situation realistically.
Who’s more irrational? The fan that blames catastrophic injuries or the fan that ignores them?
When are the Mets supposed to actually contend? Not make it to a play in game and lose. Contend for a World Series.
Middle of 2015 was the beginning of a window that should have lead to sustained winning. Syndergaard, Matz, and Conforto all got called up that year in-season. Anybody hoping for anything before that was drunk. That same year Sandy traded for a slugger further solidifying that point meaning we were finally “all in”. 2015 and on we were “supposed” to be competitive. During that time we went to the WS, made it to a one game playoff in spite of losing some key cogs down the stretch, had a complete wipeout year due to catastrophic injuries to literally everyone, and now a hopeful bounce bs k to competitiveness with players returning.,
Why are the Mets the only team that always deals with these "catastrophic" injuries?
Maybe the problem is that we don't have good enough depth to stay above water when good players get hurt.
Todd Frazier going down means Jose Reyes becomes an every day player. That's a problem.
The funny thing is I did say Frazier was the one player we didn’t really have a suitable option for as far as a replacement in ST but that’s probably the only spot. We had depth in the OF, MI, and 1B. Hopefully he’s only out temporarily.
Okay, so the middle of 15 is where the window was supposed to open...
Since then, we made it to a play in game and lost, finished 20+ games out of 1st place and are now looking like a thoroughly mediocre team again this year.
That feels like the right direction to you?
Feels like the exact opposite to me. But to each their own.
Well you don’t just write 25 players on a card in 2015 Â
And say your good for the next 10 years. Rosters are fluid. Things are changing. We lost one of the best pitchers in the game completely off our roster due to some freak thing. Some of he lineup needed to be replaced by younger talent eventually. Talent has to be nurtured and grown. I actually like our direction now more than I did in 2016. Rosario, Conforto, Nimmo, and eventually one of Smith/Alonso are going to be good. With some turnover this year I expected wild card mix with potential for more in 2019-2020 once these guys grow up a bit.
Dude destroys and mocks everyone's game thread comments but then gets butthurt when someone calls him crazy.
Come on Dude, you do this every season...wait until fans are pissed off and then reappear to purposely throw gasoline on the fire. Everyone's opinion is garbage, yours is the only rational one, blah, blah.
But please, carry on...you are coming off really well.
Didn’t really post much here in the offseason either. I haven’t shown up as much lately due to my job. I Don’t recall blasting people’s comments on game threads much lately either. Are you referring to the Thor “thrower” comment today? I didn’t even call you out by name. Was just using the topic as an example of high and low people get.
Who’s more irrational? The fan that blames catastrophic injuries or the fan that ignores them?
Hear what you're saying. Big difference is no other team would want their star pitcher to take an MRI and then be fine when he didn't want to. The Mets medical staff has been a joke for a while
because I'm not an expert on it but many beat writers and "baseball people" have also suggested Thor doesn't really get how to pitch yet.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
because I'm not an expert on it but many beat writers and "baseball people" have also suggested Thor doesn't really get how to pitch yet.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Dude, why even bother. He knows exactly what he is doing. Its his same shtick...and it's tiresome. Honestly, he's clearly trolling.
because I'm not an expert on it but many beat writers and "baseball people" have also suggested Thor doesn't really get how to pitch yet.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Can you please share a few? I’d like an example please. I watch every Mets game and haven’t seen much of that at all actually. Which beat writers specifically? The beats can be just as emotional and ridiculous as some of the posters on BBI anyway but I certainly haven’t seen any sort of “consensus”. Sure he maybe can fine tune a few things and be “even better” than a top 10 pitcher on the planet but acting as if he’s up there just “throwing” with no plan is just plain stupid. Sorry.
Every week it’s another BS narrative. He can’t go more than 5 innings yet he has gone at least 6 like 7-8 times this year is another example. It’s exhausting.
Who ever said that he's "throwing with no plan." Now you are just making stuff up.
I also watch every game and Gary/Keith/Ron literally discuss "pitching vs. throwing" every single one of his starts. And its discussed by Nelson on the post game reports. I don't tweet but I'm sure it's popped up there on more than one occasion.
Either way, they are just conversations about how our pitcher can improve. Don't know why it bothers you so much. Every telecast they discuss where his misses are, how he hasn't been quite as dominant. Your fixation and attacks on this stuff today is just weird.
Then the ridiculous emotions from this fan base from game to game. If your going to be overly critical of a 25 year old Thor, you probably should just give up with the sport all together.
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
I actually think that Sandy has done an excellent job Â
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
There’s nothing difficult to understand. People were freaking out the moment he gave up a run in the first inning yesterday. It was a small example I used that was part of a much larger point that really had nothing to do with Thor specifically anyway. He also pitched into the 8th inning against the Cardinals weeks ago and has gone at least 6 innings like 8 times. He’s had MANY good starts this year and is rightfully 10th in fWAR right now because of it. In 2016, he was number one in fWAR so it’s not like we are wishing upon magical stars for him to someday be good. He’s freaking just about as good as it gets right now.
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
Good post arc and dead on. But your point will assuredly be lost on its intended target. Can’t question Thor. Can’t question Sandy. Can’t question anything Mets related. They are still exactly where some people thought they should be, so we all should be happy. Lol, this thread immediately took a nose dive into the absurd when someone returned.
And here I thought our lineup was “stacked” and we had a top of the league rotation. Silly me.
I'd say Noah is top 10 but he's right on the edge. He should also be top 5. He's good enough.
I think fans are only hard on him because we don't feel like we've seen his best yet.
They will likely both finish in the top 10 and flip flop all year. My gut tells me Thor finishes ahead of DeGrom but does it really matter when they are both that good?
Noah's WHIP is about as high as its ever been right now. I think he can be better than this.
deGrom "gets it" more than Syndergaard does right now, IMO.
Hopefully that same light goes on for Noah soon.
I don't know what was said on the game thread after the first run he gave up yesterday, I don't think I posted anything until I got home near the end.
It's really more a testament to how good Thor's stuff is that some of us expect him to be even better than this. Not so much a critique. If I felt like he was getting max results based on his abilities, I'd be perfectly happy with the level he's at now.
Only three even remotely negative comments were made.
Phi said in the OP that Thor can be the best in the game if he ever learns to be a true pitcher, Vanzetti said his control seemed off, and giantsFC posted some random concern about him becoming "diva" like.
That was literally it. I don't think anyone was going that crazy...
because I'm not an expert on it but many beat writers and "baseball people" have also suggested Thor doesn't really get how to pitch yet.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Can you please share a few? I’d like an example please. I watch every Mets game and haven’t seen much of that at all actually. Which beat writers specifically? The beats can be just as emotional and ridiculous as some of the posters on BBI anyway but I certainly haven’t seen any sort of “consensus”. Sure he maybe can fine tune a few things and be “even better” than a top 10 pitcher on the planet but acting as if he’s up there just “throwing” with no plan is just plain stupid. Sorry.
Twitter is the worst for searching. However, you love to cite fangraphs, there was an article just before the season opener that explains what a lot of other people are citing. Interesting read.
And again, everyone acknowledges Syndergaard as a top 10 pitcher, he's got legit elite stuff, people see his stuff though and think he should be even better. He's not the first pitcher in this category. Some figure it out and become elite (Pedro Matinez, Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, etc.) for long stretches, some don't (the list is long).
here is a tiny excerpt from the article:
Quote:
.....So Thor’s BABIP was pretty poor across the board, but regarding Batting Average Allowed, Thor’s sinker is the sore thumb. It really shouldn’t be – the reason for the gap in his sinker and fourseamer BAA is due to Syndergaard using his four-seamer as a strikeout pitch (27.4% K rate), while his sinker rarely was the finishing blow (11.3%). Ignore the sore thumb, the whole hand is in pain. Combining for over 1750 thrown, Syndergaard’s fastballs combined for a .344 BABIP. That’s terrible and it’s even a worse mark than the .334 that started this whole conversation.
Is it just bad luck that Syndergaard’s fastballs returned terrible BABIPs? Or is there something else at play here?
You could make the argument that his high velocity should make it tougher for batters to get solid wood on the pitch, resulting in more pop-ups or dribblers, convincing you that this is a poor spin of the roulette wheel. You could also argue that batters have to do less to get a higher exit velocity as “a ball coming in harder goes out harder,” and there’s your explination for Syndergaard’s batted ball issues.
I don’t think either is the correct theory. Here’s mine: Syndergaard doesn’t have full command of his fastball. Again, he’s a thrower, not a pitcher....
Here is another quote where the author even uses deGrom as an example of effective pitching.
Quote:
.....The first adjustment is easy: don’t locate thigh-high, especially with a tinge of sitting lower than higher. This is the day-and-of-age of more batters emphasizing higher launch angles, which makes them better low-ball hitters. The counter to this approach is to feature more elevated fastballs that make it tougher for the more pronounced upper-cut swings to get the barrel on the ball (we’ve actually seen pitchers have plenty of success with this including Syndergaard’s teammate Jacob deGrom who features four-seamers predominantly above the belt and held a marvelous 15.6% whiff rate in 2017).
I wouldn’t call this the biggest flaw, though. It’s not ideal, but it’s not the core of the problem. The major step Syndergaard needs to take is the real separator between pitchers and throwers: Command fastballs on both sides of the plate.
What we call “crafty” pitchers are ones that utilize all four quadrants of the strike-zone, often having success with just two pitches in their repertoire, but their locations acting as the significant variables from pitch-to-pitch. Ervin Santana crafted his success last year doing this, Dallas Keuchel is a master of it, and Kyle Hendricks is making us slam our heads into walls as he defies odds with a near two-pitch approach of fastball-changeup as he works all around the zone. Hendricks does this with an average fastball velocity over 10mph slower than Syndergaard’s. Pitcher, not thrower.
Syndergaard not only lacks this skill, but I’d argue his current fastball approach is making it a less effective offering......
his conclusion...
Quote:
...Look, it’s possible. It’s easy to forget how little Syndergaard has actually pitched in the majors and the 25-year-old (25!) has plenty of time to develop this skill. However, we need to begin questioning the innate talent of the pitcher and not spend so much time getting seduced by what he throws. I want to believe Syndergaard can become the god among men, but it might be smart to temper our expectations until he figures out his fastball command. It’s a significant flaw and one that will hold him back from the coveted ceiling...
Only three even remotely negative comments were made.
Phi said in the OP that Thor can be the best in the game if he ever learns to be a true pitcher, Vanzetti said his control seemed off, and giantsFC posted some random concern about him becoming "diva" like.
That was literally it. I don't think anyone was going that crazy...
As I mentioned it was a combination of things I notice in every Thor start from his velocity being down, to him not being able to pitch 5 innings, to him now being a “thrower” not a pitcher. And for the millionth time my point wasn’t about Thor at all but please let’s keep nitpicking this...
Article citing Thor as a “thrower” not a “pitcher”. Can he make a few adjustments to truly be a “God amongst men” like the author suggests? Sure. He’s also 25 and already elite so what’s the bat exactly? Tom Seaver?
Article citing Thor as a “thrower” not a “pitcher”. Can he make a few adjustments to truly be a “God amongst men” like the author suggests? Sure. He’s also 25 and already elite so what’s the bat exactly? Tom Seaver?
LOL, it's right here...
I don’t think either is the correct theory. Here’s mine: Syndergaard doesn’t have full command of his fastball. Again, he’s a thrower, not a pitcher....
Article citing Thor as a “thrower” not a “pitcher”. Can he make a few adjustments to truly be a “God amongst men” like the author suggests? Sure. He’s also 25 and already elite so what’s the bat exactly? Tom Seaver?
The author uses that exact phrase in the article multiple times. I pasted one example.
and it's not about a bar IMO, it's about seeing his stuff and thinking his results should be even better than they are. If you read that article and don't get it then you don't want to think he could be even better than he is.
Let's say Thor never adjusts, sure he could have a nice career, but what the author is saying is if he does adjust he could be in the Pedro, Gooden, etc. class, which he's not in yet.
Not a lot of downside (if he stays healthy and maintains his velocity), but still more upside.
I wouldn’t call this the biggest flaw, though. It’s not ideal, but it’s not the core of the problem. The major step Syndergaard needs to take is the real separator between pitchers and throwers: Command fastballs on both sides of the plate.
But he does say it. Congrats. Don't agree with it. To me a thrower is somebody out there without a plan. That's a ridiculous sentiment to me. One author's opinion doesn't make it fact either. I do appreciate finding an example though so thanks.
Nobody is saying he cant be even better. I just think he's a unanimous top 10 pitcher in the sport right now, possibly even better if 2016 is any indication so what exactly are we nit picking? Also, again, it's not just the thrower comment yesterdat... it's the down velocity... cant get past the 5 IP shit I see all the time....
Why are we riding this guys dick so hard? Cant we fucking be happy he's amazing and he's ours?? He can be EVEN better so lets gripe about it?
not sure why you take it personally and get defensive when many people (not just this one author) have noted that his stuff is legendary, but his results only great. So you should just not comment on it? Not try and adjust?
there just aren't many people on the planet now or in the history of the planet that can throw triple digits, maintain that velocity for starter's innings, and have plus off-speed stuff too.
And it's not about having a plan, the author (and his numbers) suggests his control is great, his command is off however, and after watching probably 90% of the starts Thor has made I believe that. His stuff is so good though most of the time he gets away with it, but other times he hits too much of the plate. if he fixes that he can be like Kershaw - top 5 in cy young voting each year the past 7 years - winning 3 - with three top 10 MVPS's in the mix (one win).
His results are great so far and as mentioned if he doesn't improve one bit he could still have a great career, but if he makes some adjustments he could be among the all-time greats (or as the author suggests "a god amongst men".
I think it's a compliment actually and something I put as much on Eiland as him.
No one is "riding his dick so hard" - I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive or taking this like we're all piling on and killing the guy.
I think it's a testament to how good his stuff is that he can be a career ~2.90 ERA pitcher and can still be better.
If he never got any better than this, he'd still be a great pitcher - but I think he has another gear that he hasn't hit yet. Is that really a big deal?
He calls you out, says that you are wrong, turns out he missed it not once-not twice-but three times, and then is condescending because you dared to probide the proof that he asked for.
No one is "riding his dick so hard" - I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive or taking this like we're all piling on and killing the guy.
I think it's a testament to how good his stuff is that he can be a career ~2.90 ERA pitcher and can still be better.
If he never got any better than this, he'd still be a great pitcher - but I think he has another gear that he hasn't hit yet. Is that really a big deal?
He can learn to be a better pitcher.
So why are we repeatedly ignoring my 2nd and third points in regards to Thor over and over again? Were people not talking about his velocity being down this year? If his stuff was so good that he was getting away with stuff wouldnt that directly fly in the face of that? Were people not complaining about him getting out of the 5th inning this year? Why do I have to repeatedly explain my overall point only to have it ignored?
Mets fans have been through endless crap. I'll never understand why people are surprised by the way they react to the ebbs and flows the way they do. This franchise has done zilch to deserve any sort of benefit of the doubt.
go back to April, some fans had huge highly unrealistic expectations for the rotation. Now they're upset and distraught over a few losing streaks.
There's definitely some upside on this year's team, so it's not impossible that they can pull it off.
Like I said in my post way above (but only a few hours ago), I'm really hoping for big weeks from Rosario/Conforto and maybe even some reasonable pitching aside from the two aces.
I get your point that's its a bit harsh for me to be calling for Sandy and setting a hard line with results this year, but I'm less lenient because been here so long. I think a fresh look from outside the organization is in and of itself usually a good thing because things can get stagnant after a while.
I was simply stating what it is considered in terms of MLB rule. I could care less what fans view it as what.
Quote:
LOL.. baseball law.
Why do you think they call it a PLAY IN game?
What is the play IN to?
Oh yeah... the postseason!
We didn't make the postseason. We made the play in game. And we lost.
Glad that was enough for you to enjoy the season. I'd like a little more than that one of these days... maybe something a little more like what's going on across town... where play in game losses aren't considered successful and the bar is set just a little bit higher.
Again, the one game playoff is considered the postseason. All statistics in the game count towards postseason record.
So, losing a play in game and not playing in an actual series is enough for you as a fan?
When do you expect the Mets to be actual contenders? You keep dancing around the question.
Quote:
I also think this is roughly a 88 win team before deadline additions so I’m not overly concerned. If this team didn’t have any catastrophic blows again like last year and still finished below 88 I’d have no problem with Sandy taking the hit.
There's definitely some upside on this year's team, so it's not impossible that they can pull it off.
Like I said in my post way above (but only a few hours ago), I'm really hoping for big weeks from Rosario/Conforto and maybe even some reasonable pitching aside from the two aces.
I get your point that's its a bit harsh for me to be calling for Sandy and setting a hard line with results this year, but I'm less lenient because been here so long. I think a fresh look from outside the organization is in and of itself usually a good thing because things can get stagnant after a while.
We are seeing what this team can be in glimpses. Wheeler and Matz have been up and down but are still talented. Our aces take a ton of pressure off everyone else when they are going well. The pen can be fantastic, especially when Swarzak returns. Rosario, Conforto, and others are starting to flash. The lineup can produce if a healthy Cespedes ever join them. There’s going to be ups and downs all year but there is a ton of talent here, even if it’s still a bit raw and undefined. We will keep tweaking and adjusting and we will continue to improve over the summer months.
Quote:
In comment 13970061 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
LOL.. baseball law.
Why do you think they call it a PLAY IN game?
What is the play IN to?
Oh yeah... the postseason!
We didn't make the postseason. We made the play in game. And we lost.
Glad that was enough for you to enjoy the season. I'd like a little more than that one of these days... maybe something a little more like what's going on across town... where play in game losses aren't considered successful and the bar is set just a little bit higher.
Again, the one game playoff is considered the postseason. All statistics in the game count towards postseason record.
So, losing a play in game and not playing in an actual series is enough for you as a fan?
When do you expect the Mets to be actual contenders? You keep dancing around the question.
This sounds purposely obtuse considering it was a season directly following a World Series and National League pennant. You know damn well this has been a talented roster over the last few years and if we make the postseason this year 2017 will be considered the anomaly... not 2015.
It’s one thing to be irrational and blame every little injury on something but complete catastrophic knockout blows to your core players like Thor, Cespedes, Conforto, Familia, etc... at some point you just have throw your hands up and call it a lost season and look at the situation realistically.
Who’s more irrational? The fan that blames catastrophic injuries or the fan that ignores them?
Lets try it again..
When are the Mets supposed to actually contend? Not make it to a play in game and lose. Contend for a World Series.
Maybe the problem is that we don't have good enough depth to stay above water when good players get hurt.
Todd Frazier going down means Jose Reyes becomes an every day player. That's a problem.
Lets try it again..
When are the Mets supposed to actually contend? Not make it to a play in game and lose. Contend for a World Series.
Middle of 2015 was the beginning of a window that should have lead to sustained winning. Syndergaard, Matz, and Conforto all got called up that year in-season. Anybody hoping for anything before that was drunk. That same year Sandy traded for a slugger further solidifying that point meaning we were finally “all in”. 2015 and on we were “supposed” to be competitive. During that time we went to the WS, made it to a one game playoff in spite of losing some key cogs down the stretch, had a complete wipeout year due to catastrophic injuries to literally everyone, and now a hopeful bounce bs k to competitiveness with players returning.,
Maybe the problem is that we don't have good enough depth to stay above water when good players get hurt.
Todd Frazier going down means Jose Reyes becomes an every day player. That's a problem.
The funny thing is I did say Frazier was the one player we didn’t really have a suitable option for as far as a replacement in ST but that’s probably the only spot. We had depth in the OF, MI, and 1B. Hopefully he’s only out temporarily.
Since then, we made it to a play in game and lost, finished 20+ games out of 1st place and are now looking like a thoroughly mediocre team again this year.
That feels like the right direction to you?
Feels like the exact opposite to me. But to each their own.
Come on Dude, you do this every season...wait until fans are pissed off and then reappear to purposely throw gasoline on the fire. Everyone's opinion is garbage, yours is the only rational one, blah, blah.
But please, carry on...you are coming off really well.
Fans.
And who exactly the fuck are you? I’ve never seen you post here before.
Who’s more irrational? The fan that blames catastrophic injuries or the fan that ignores them?
Hear what you're saying. Big difference is no other team would want their star pitcher to take an MRI and then be fine when he didn't want to. The Mets medical staff has been a joke for a while
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Dude, why even bother. He knows exactly what he is doing. Its his same shtick...and it's tiresome. Honestly, he's clearly trolling.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Can you please share a few? I’d like an example please. I watch every Mets game and haven’t seen much of that at all actually. Which beat writers specifically? The beats can be just as emotional and ridiculous as some of the posters on BBI anyway but I certainly haven’t seen any sort of “consensus”. Sure he maybe can fine tune a few things and be “even better” than a top 10 pitcher on the planet but acting as if he’s up there just “throwing” with no plan is just plain stupid. Sorry.
I also watch every game and Gary/Keith/Ron literally discuss "pitching vs. throwing" every single one of his starts. And its discussed by Nelson on the post game reports. I don't tweet but I'm sure it's popped up there on more than one occasion.
Either way, they are just conversations about how our pitcher can improve. Don't know why it bothers you so much. Every telecast they discuss where his misses are, how he hasn't been quite as dominant. Your fixation and attacks on this stuff today is just weird.
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
I'd say Noah is top 10 but he's right on the edge. He should also be top 5. He's good enough.
I think fans are only hard on him because we don't feel like we've seen his best yet.
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
There’s nothing difficult to understand. People were freaking out the moment he gave up a run in the first inning yesterday. It was a small example I used that was part of a much larger point that really had nothing to do with Thor specifically anyway. He also pitched into the 8th inning against the Cardinals weeks ago and has gone at least 6 innings like 8 times. He’s had MANY good starts this year and is rightfully 10th in fWAR right now because of it. In 2016, he was number one in fWAR so it’s not like we are wishing upon magical stars for him to someday be good. He’s freaking just about as good as it gets right now.
Thor has tremendous stuff. He has not yet learned to use it as well as he can.
Just yesterday, Howie and Lewin were discussing it on the radio - Lewin said something to the effect of "it's funny, they wanted Wheeler to become more like Syndergaard, but Syndergaard seems to be becoming more like Wheeler" in terms of getting stuck needing tons of pitches to get through early innings.
Syndergaard is really, really good - but he's not as good as he can be.
All you need to do is look at the guy he pitches after every week. deGrom is what happens when a guy with really good stuff becomes a truly great pitcher.
deGrom is an elite SP right now. Syndergaard isn't quite there. Doesn't mean people are "talking shit" about him. Most of us just think he can be better than he's been.
Yesterday was a good start. Now let's see more of that.
Good post arc and dead on. But your point will assuredly be lost on its intended target. Can’t question Thor. Can’t question Sandy. Can’t question anything Mets related. They are still exactly where some people thought they should be, so we all should be happy. Lol, this thread immediately took a nose dive into the absurd when someone returned.
And here I thought our lineup was “stacked” and we had a top of the league rotation. Silly me.
I'd say Noah is top 10 but he's right on the edge. He should also be top 5. He's good enough.
I think fans are only hard on him because we don't feel like we've seen his best yet.
They will likely both finish in the top 10 and flip flop all year. My gut tells me Thor finishes ahead of DeGrom but does it really matter when they are both that good?
I’ll wait...
deGrom "gets it" more than Syndergaard does right now, IMO.
Hopefully that same light goes on for Noah soon.
I don't know what was said on the game thread after the first run he gave up yesterday, I don't think I posted anything until I got home near the end.
It's really more a testament to how good Thor's stuff is that some of us expect him to be even better than this. Not so much a critique. If I felt like he was getting max results based on his abilities, I'd be perfectly happy with the level he's at now.
Only three even remotely negative comments were made.
Phi said in the OP that Thor can be the best in the game if he ever learns to be a true pitcher, Vanzetti said his control seemed off, and giantsFC posted some random concern about him becoming "diva" like.
That was literally it. I don't think anyone was going that crazy...
Cmon.
Quote:
because I'm not an expert on it but many beat writers and "baseball people" have also suggested Thor doesn't really get how to pitch yet.
I don't think it being said really as much a criticism of him as it is a marvel at his talent that he can be this successful without truly getting it yet.
They're looking at it more from my interpretation as a "imagine how utterly dominant this guy will be when...." and not a "he sucks" perspective.
Just search twitter and you'll find many examples of people who get paid to write about baseball having this sentiment.
Can you please share a few? I’d like an example please. I watch every Mets game and haven’t seen much of that at all actually. Which beat writers specifically? The beats can be just as emotional and ridiculous as some of the posters on BBI anyway but I certainly haven’t seen any sort of “consensus”. Sure he maybe can fine tune a few things and be “even better” than a top 10 pitcher on the planet but acting as if he’s up there just “throwing” with no plan is just plain stupid. Sorry.
Twitter is the worst for searching. However, you love to cite fangraphs, there was an article just before the season opener that explains what a lot of other people are citing. Interesting read.
And again, everyone acknowledges Syndergaard as a top 10 pitcher, he's got legit elite stuff, people see his stuff though and think he should be even better. He's not the first pitcher in this category. Some figure it out and become elite (Pedro Matinez, Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, etc.) for long stretches, some don't (the list is long).
here is a tiny excerpt from the article:
Is it just bad luck that Syndergaard’s fastballs returned terrible BABIPs? Or is there something else at play here?
You could make the argument that his high velocity should make it tougher for batters to get solid wood on the pitch, resulting in more pop-ups or dribblers, convincing you that this is a poor spin of the roulette wheel. You could also argue that batters have to do less to get a higher exit velocity as “a ball coming in harder goes out harder,” and there’s your explination for Syndergaard’s batted ball issues.
I don’t think either is the correct theory. Here’s mine: Syndergaard doesn’t have full command of his fastball. Again, he’s a thrower, not a pitcher....
Here is another quote where the author even uses deGrom as an example of effective pitching.
I wouldn’t call this the biggest flaw, though. It’s not ideal, but it’s not the core of the problem. The major step Syndergaard needs to take is the real separator between pitchers and throwers: Command fastballs on both sides of the plate.
What we call “crafty” pitchers are ones that utilize all four quadrants of the strike-zone, often having success with just two pitches in their repertoire, but their locations acting as the significant variables from pitch-to-pitch. Ervin Santana crafted his success last year doing this, Dallas Keuchel is a master of it, and Kyle Hendricks is making us slam our heads into walls as he defies odds with a near two-pitch approach of fastball-changeup as he works all around the zone. Hendricks does this with an average fastball velocity over 10mph slower than Syndergaard’s. Pitcher, not thrower.
Syndergaard not only lacks this skill, but I’d argue his current fastball approach is making it a less effective offering......
his conclusion...
Thor - on fangraphs - ( New Window )
Only three even remotely negative comments were made.
Phi said in the OP that Thor can be the best in the game if he ever learns to be a true pitcher, Vanzetti said his control seemed off, and giantsFC posted some random concern about him becoming "diva" like.
That was literally it. I don't think anyone was going that crazy...
As I mentioned it was a combination of things I notice in every Thor start from his velocity being down, to him not being able to pitch 5 innings, to him now being a “thrower” not a pitcher. And for the millionth time my point wasn’t about Thor at all but please let’s keep nitpicking this...
LOL, it's right here...
I don’t think either is the correct theory. Here’s mine: Syndergaard doesn’t have full command of his fastball. Again, he’s a thrower, not a pitcher....
The author uses that exact phrase in the article multiple times. I pasted one example.
and it's not about a bar IMO, it's about seeing his stuff and thinking his results should be even better than they are. If you read that article and don't get it then you don't want to think he could be even better than he is.
Let's say Thor never adjusts, sure he could have a nice career, but what the author is saying is if he does adjust he could be in the Pedro, Gooden, etc. class, which he's not in yet.
Not a lot of downside (if he stays healthy and maintains his velocity), but still more upside.
Why are we riding this guys dick so hard? Cant we fucking be happy he's amazing and he's ours?? He can be EVEN better so lets gripe about it?
there just aren't many people on the planet now or in the history of the planet that can throw triple digits, maintain that velocity for starter's innings, and have plus off-speed stuff too.
And it's not about having a plan, the author (and his numbers) suggests his control is great, his command is off however, and after watching probably 90% of the starts Thor has made I believe that. His stuff is so good though most of the time he gets away with it, but other times he hits too much of the plate. if he fixes that he can be like Kershaw - top 5 in cy young voting each year the past 7 years - winning 3 - with three top 10 MVPS's in the mix (one win).
His results are great so far and as mentioned if he doesn't improve one bit he could still have a great career, but if he makes some adjustments he could be among the all-time greats (or as the author suggests "a god amongst men".
I think it's a compliment actually and something I put as much on Eiland as him.
I think it's a testament to how good his stuff is that he can be a career ~2.90 ERA pitcher and can still be better.
If he never got any better than this, he'd still be a great pitcher - but I think he has another gear that he hasn't hit yet. Is that really a big deal?
He can learn to be a better pitcher.
You really come off as unintelligent.
I think it's a testament to how good his stuff is that he can be a career ~2.90 ERA pitcher and can still be better.
If he never got any better than this, he'd still be a great pitcher - but I think he has another gear that he hasn't hit yet. Is that really a big deal?
He can learn to be a better pitcher.
So why are we repeatedly ignoring my 2nd and third points in regards to Thor over and over again? Were people not talking about his velocity being down this year? If his stuff was so good that he was getting away with stuff wouldnt that directly fly in the face of that? Were people not complaining about him getting out of the 5th inning this year? Why do I have to repeatedly explain my overall point only to have it ignored?