And given his potential for severe damage due to his neck injuries, a DJ fan, it would be the best thing for him if he retired also… I know that wouldn’t happen until after the season starts due to the $27M, but it’s the right thing to due
You can blame Joe all you want, but every pundit praised the trade
but in the NFL success can be boiled down to consistently drafting players good enough to earn second contracts. If you do that you set your team up for success in many ways (I won't get into them here or it will be a "big post" but I think most people understand this).
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
but in the NFL success can be boiled down to consistently drafting players good enough to earn second contracts. If you do that you set your team up for success in many ways (I won't get into them here or it will be a "big post" but I think most people understand this).
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
if you don't understand it, that's not on me.
I still don't think you read my post. I said I agree with you if this was an isolated situation. I said Schoen hasn't been good at all. But what you are saying doesn't really make sense. You are saying that drafting a good player and giving him a second contract is the same as trading it for Waller? No it isn't.
but in the NFL success can be boiled down to consistently drafting players good enough to earn second contracts. If you do that you set your team up for success in many ways (I won't get into them here or it will be a "big post" but I think most people understand this).
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
if you don't understand it, that's not on me.
I still don't think you read my post. I said I agree with you if this was an isolated situation. I said Schoen hasn't been good at all. But what you are saying doesn't really make sense. You are saying that drafting a good player and giving him a second contract is the same as trading it for Waller? No it isn't.
I didn't say it was the same, I said there would be benefits if they had drafted him but outside of those benefits it's not that different making a second contract decision on a player you drafted vs signing one as a UFA vs trading for a veteran who already signed their 2nd contract (it's a big cap hit in all of them):
Quote:
....If you do that you set your team up for success in many ways (I won't get into them here or it will be a "big post" but I think most people understand this)
away a 3rd round pick should not be minimized. It was a terrible trade if he is in fact retiring./////
I'm fine with the risk. They are trying to get better, you need to take risks, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Don't forget they got a third for Toney (trying to clean up more moves from previous regime), so it kind of cancels.....
kind of cancels? I'd call it throwing away good money after bad. I never liked the premise of the trade with Waller's injury history and it struck me Gettlemanesque, sign the injured vet who will magically make the O ignite.
Players have used false retirements in the offseason...
...as a leveraging tool to force a trade or a pay raise in the past (Favre in 2008, Strahan in 2007). My guess is that this is what Waller is up to. It doesn't make sense that he would walk away from $10M+ when he'd "only" made $42M in his previous eight years in the league. It just seems like an odd decision for a 31-year old with his whole life ahead of him.
away a 3rd round pick should not be minimized. It was a terrible trade if he is in fact retiring./////
I'm fine with the risk. They are trying to get better, you need to take risks, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
Don't forget they got a third for Toney (trying to clean up more moves from previous regime), so it kind of cancels.....
kind of cancels? I'd call it throwing away good money after bad. I never liked the premise of the trade with Waller's injury history and it struck me Gettlemanesque, sign the injured vet who will magically make the O ignite.
The cost wasn't on the same planet as what Gentlemen did with Golladay. This comparison was, and continues to be, absolutely awful.
I had a vested interest in him for years due to good Ole fantasy football. So I watched him more than I would usually over the years. I disliked his game. He was soft and dropped a ton of balls. I had little hope he would be pan out here. It sucks that seems to be the case. Much like our offensive line, we have had terrible luck finding a tight wns
that 3rd to draft another Matt Peart or Oshane Ximines or Davis Webb.
the Giants are at best 30/70 hit rate in the 3rd round (and the entire NFL is not much better), I'd gamble on a known quantity like Waller 10 times out of 10 given the chance for a 3rd round. Maybe trading Toney for Waller straight up would have made some of the draft pick huggers happier, but it was basically what they did.
it didn't work out, you move on.
fans need to stop being such draft pick huggers.
The Rams drafted all of these players in 2023:
Byron Young (Third Round)
Kobie Turner (Third Round)
Davis Allen (Fifth Round)
Puka Nacua (Fifth Round)
Just because the Giants suck at drafting doesn't mean that other teams do, or that we can't do any better. The answer isn't to constantly trade picks for players or trade up, but to get better scouts.
And from the Giants:
Victor Cruz (Undrafted).
Ahmad Bradshaw (Seventh Round).
Brandon Jacobs (Fourth Round).
Justin Tuck (Third Round).
because we suck at drafting, it’s OK for us to throw 3rd round picks away on guys who have proven they can’t stay healthy?
the comparison to the Burns trade is asinine. not only is he 4 years younger, Burns has been the picture of health and consistency compared to where Waller was before we traded for him. and LOL at a 30-year old Waller still being in his prime. that is absurd.
pundits may have praised the trade, but they were dumb too. better to admit your mistakes than to excuse them.
Waller health situation would not have been crystal clear to GM. Decent gamble which did not work out (most of you probably blame this, along with global warming on DJ).
What a good scouting/coaching organization (leaves us out I know) should be able to turn a 3 into is an adequate to good IOL or S after a somewhat bumpy rookie year.
because we suck at drafting, it’s OK for us to throw 3rd round picks away on guys who have proven they can’t stay healthy?
the comparison to the Burns trade is asinine. not only is he 4 years younger, Burns has been the picture of health and consistency compared to where Waller was before we traded for him. and LOL at a 30-year old Waller still being in his prime. that is absurd.
pundits may have praised the trade, but they were dumb too. better to admit your mistakes than to excuse them.
that's not the logic. I'll slow it down for you or maybe I should type in all caps so you can get it like my 75-year old father.
the league-wide success rate for 3rd round picks (with success being loosely defined as simply becoming a starter) is under 30%. that means for every 10 3rd round picks a team makes (every team league-wide - not just the Giants) less than 3 become "regular" starters and regular is even loosely defined as starting half their games for the time they even remain in the league.
And we know this is purely quantitative and considers nothing qualitative - we all know sometimes starters start for reasons other than quality. beyond just being "next warm body" some players simply start because they were drafted but for this purpose we will ignore all that and simply accept the ~30% number.
So, knowing we what we know it's important not to be a draft pick hugger dreaming of the anomalies, the against the odds players who do become starters or better from this place in the draft and when an opportunity is presented to obtain a player with an elite or worst case above average track record for the cost of the 3rd round pick you take it when it is a position of need (like Waller for the Giants).
Does it mean you cannot find a gem in the 3rd round (or later). Of course not. The league is littered with examples of players drafted late who excelled like Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, James Harrison - but that doesn't mean drafting your future QB with a 6th round comp pick should be your strategy and if someone offered you a potential starting QB for your 6th round comp pick you would obviously make that trade. It simply means the odds are against it. for every team, not just the Giants. It also doesn't mean the trade will work out (like Waller didn't).
if you don't understand this, read it again, and if you still don't understand it read it another time. and then if you still don't understand it then just deactivate your account.
What I didn’t like was that we didn’t try and trade for a WR or improve that position more than a 3rd round pick. Bellinger had shown pretty well as a rookie. I thought he was an ascending player. It seemed like they moved him to be a blocker only which made no sense.
when an opportunity is presented to obtain a player with an elite or worst case above average track record for the cost of the 3rd round pick you take it when it is a position of need (like Waller for the Giants).
that’s a lot of words, but this is where your argument breaks down. Waller was years removed from elite (if he was ever there at all) when we traded for him. and an “above average track record” means exactly squat if the guy can’t stay on the field. we get it - you are jaded by the Giants’ shitty drafting - but that doesn’t mean that piling more injured players on top of the most oft-injured roster in the league is a shrewd gamble. it was dumb bc Waller was never going to stay healthy. he had already proven that he couldn’t before we acquired him, and somehow coming to MetLife and St. Ronnie Barnes was going to fix it?
when they traded for him was small if he didn't stay healthy. At the time of the trade he was cuttable with no dead money after the 2023 season, but still roster-able and under contract going forward if he proved healthy. Win-win for the Giants.
as I already noted, the restructure was horrendous and that was the mistake.
It made a good trade into a bad deal, but because that decision (the restructure) shouldn't have been made still does not negate that the trade is one you do make (for most teams).
Additionally I have made clear Waller is not a player I would have acquired, but it's not because of the 3rd round pick cost, it's more because of the state the NY Giants were/are in from a roster quality standpoint. I viewed him as a bad fit for the Giants because I did not expect they would be competitive and represented a luxury they would not be able to take advantage of if he were healthy. But that's a Giants thing - if it was the Cowboys or Eagles who made the trade or even someone like the Chargers (where I expected them to be in 2023) makes perfect sense.
we didn’t restructure him as a secondary decision removed in time from the trade. the restructure was a planned part of the trade and happened 2 days later. maybe you forgot, but the Raiders made Waller the highest paid TE in the league BEFORE we traded for him. we then had to restructure him after trading for him so that we could create cap room to sign other guys (eg Darius Slayton).
trading for him and restructuring him were two components of the same boneheaded decision. nice try, though.
him was a choice. Simple as that. And again....you consistently miss the point. As usual.
My point was trading a 3rd round pick for an established player is something smart teams do when given the opportunity. I explained why for the Giants I would not have done it but for most teams it's the right move. but people complain about the Slayton contract too, so you can't have it both ways.
trading for him without the restructure was never even an option bc it would have meant we didn’t have enough money to operate that season.
bottom line, trading draft picks for old, overpaid, injured players is dumb. there’s nothing you can say that changes that. it was dumb then and it’s dumb now.
trading for him without the restructure was never even an option bc it would have meant we didn’t have enough money to operate that season.
bottom line, trading draft picks for old, overpaid, injured players is dumb. there’s nothing you can say that changes that. it was dumb then and it’s dumb now.
ok, you keep drafting Damontre Moore's and Jaylon Hosleys and the smart teams would flip those picks for Darren Waller's and more often than not the trades work out.
Waller playing for a release so he can "retire" and try to latch on to a team making a playoff run without the risk of injury during the regular season.
ironically the only thing on twitter when i searched was this wes steinberg post from yesterday, would be funny if the giant beats got scooped by a pretend beat.
Wesley Steinberg
@WesSteinberg
#Giants TE Darren Waller is retiring.
Waller overcame a lot in his career and life, including addiction struggles. However, one season of playing with Daniel Jones was too much.
Waller playing for a release so he can "retire" and try to latch on to a team making a playoff run without the risk of injury during the regular season.
Nah, this sounds like he wants to get released so he can get something walking out the door.
that 3rd to draft another Matt Peart or Oshane Ximines or Davis Webb.
the Giants are at best 30/70 hit rate in the 3rd round (and the entire NFL is not much better), I'd gamble on a known quantity like Waller 10 times out of 10 given the chance for a 3rd round. Maybe trading Toney for Waller straight up would have made some of the draft pick huggers happier, but it was basically what they did.
it didn't work out, you move on.
fans need to stop being such draft pick huggers.
This is the correct take. Trading for known quantities seems to be a better ROI than the draft capital given up.
It's the same across all sports. I'll never forget the outrage on the Jesus Montero/Pineda trade. Turned out to be a bust on all sides, but there is something about giving up somebody's potential upside that bothers people. I'll take the known quantity over 'upside'.
And at the end of the it, Waller was still the second leading receiver for the Giants last year.
No. It's not correct. It's wrong. We get on those that make excuses for Daniel Jones. The same needs to be done here with JS.
JS must recognize what his team is and was. That’s his job. Last year he should have recognized his team wasn't going anywhere. That's his job. Blowing draft picks, when is it ever smart when you are in Rebuild to expend draft picks on older players past their prime? Someone mentioned Burns and Waller as similar but he is 25. So, it isn’t near the same vs an often-injured 30 yo TE.
The comments that he was in his prime is way off-base. C'mon. If he was so much in his prime, who would want him right now before he announced? You mean he went from "prime” “to "shot" in 1 year?
And any talk that "everybody wanted him" is revisionist history like when we used to hear the same about Solder after he was shown to be a bust. For any of us confident that the team was going to suck - there is no way you would want to risk - and I highlight the word risk-(the same issue with Jones and his injuries) that we wanted to see picks expended for a team going nowhere. The GM has to understand Rebuild vs going for it in terms of his team’s capability.
And any talk about "wash;" since when are GM's in the business of "wash" when their team sucks?
It was a bad move. Let’s stop giving excuses to JS just because some thought that the Giants might be good. They aren't the GM that is paid to be right nor do they have all the data the GM has.
Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. Do we really need to go back and look at them? Nobody on the planet was worried about him retiring a year in. It was a good gamble, and it didn’t work out.
But Schoen made other bad moves. But we gave up other draft picks. But but but. Irrelevant. It was a good gamble that was uniformly praised. Didn’t work out.
Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. .
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
The most disappointing part of the Waller acquisition is that his health issues appear to be chronic, and potentially something the Giants should have caught.
Solder and absolutely no one wanted to make him the highest paid lineman in the league...
Again revisionist history. This will probably happen with Waller down the road too. Many many many on this board were applauding the move. We got rid of the disaster that was there before and we were getting a major bump up- was much much of the talk.
Solder and absolutely no one wanted to make him the highest paid lineman in the league...
Again revisionist history. This will probably happen with Waller down the road too. Many many many on this board were applauding the move. We got rid of the disaster that was there before and we were getting a major bump up- was much much of the talk.
go ahead and check the archives. LT absolutely needed to be upgraded but Solder was mediocre at best in NE and making him the highest paid LT in the league did not have a lot of support.
there was a lot of positivity because he was replacing Ereck Flowers....however most of the positivity became tempered when the contract details were revealed and people turned on the signing by and large because of the money.
linked below to show I'm not ducking my apology.... link - ( New Window )
Anyone suggesting Solder was not loved on here when he signed
-- not saying anyone specifically was happy with it -- but I don't think I can go back - maybe I'll try but just read some of the link below when Giants signed him. And to think that many on here weren't on board with the thought process mentioned vs what the Giants were previously dealing with -- then I have a Bridge to Sell you. Especially since the Pats offered Solder the same money.
there was a lot of positivity because he was replacing Ereck Flowers....however most of the positivity became tempered when the contract details were revealed and people turned on the signing by and large because of the money.
linked below to show I'm not ducking my apology.... link - ( New Window )
+1. Thank you. What a mess he was.
the best part of the solder discourse is that reese's fatal sin
was passing on andrew whitworth when he was like 6 years older than solder when he signed here the year prior.
solder went off a cliff but his first year he was decent. that's how FA goes. if they didnt spend the $ on him its not like they would have written a check to fans. they would have spent it on someone else we all would have ended up complaining about (like waller).
you miss 100% of the shots you dont take. waller was a shot they took without much downside. same with solder. it is almost impossible to get good veteran players in the NFL at premium positions.
Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. .
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
This is precious. It’s not difficult to look these things up. From the thread:
Like the move
giantstock : 3/14/2023 4:44 pm : link
It matches what the team is trying to do by re-signing Jones and Barkley. If you are going to go for it- then go for it. And you go for it not by getting a team's "3rd WR" like bozo DG did getting Philly's WR.
Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. Do we really need to go back and look at them? Nobody on the planet was worried about him retiring a year in. It was a good gamble, and it didn’t work out.
But Schoen made other bad moves. But we gave up other draft picks. But but but. Irrelevant. It was a good gamble that was uniformly praised. Didn’t work out.
More bullshit revisionist history. Here’s the thread. There were plenty of rational Giants fans who didn’t like the trade or were concerned about Waller’s ability to stay on the field (not you, Chris). Original Waller thread - ( New Window )
Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. .
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
This is precious. It’s not difficult to look these things up. From the thread:
Like the move
giantstock : 3/14/2023 4:44 pm : link
It matches what the team is trying to do by re-signing Jones and Barkley. If you are going to go for it- then go for it. And you go for it not by getting a team's "3rd WR" like bozo DG did getting Philly's WR.
If he is healthy this is a big impact.
Sure as hell looks like you were in fact, on board with the trade to me! Oops! 😂 The Internet is forever - ( New Window )
Notice what I said -- "Like the move - it matches what Giants are trying to do with Barkley and Jones." Now if you are so astute and searching you can find that I wanted teh Giants to rebuild. ANd if they weren't then you have to try to win.
Just as I was so pissed about Barkley - but once teh Gianst got him, oyu cansee I was on baord IF they got him an OL.
Waller playing for a release so he can "retire" and try to latch on to a team making a playoff run without the risk of injury during the regular season.
Joe took a chance. It was reasonable and not reckless……you want a GM who takes reasonable chances.
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
if you don't understand it, that's not on me.
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
if you don't understand it, that's not on me.
I still don't think you read my post. I said I agree with you if this was an isolated situation. I said Schoen hasn't been good at all. But what you are saying doesn't really make sense. You are saying that drafting a good player and giving him a second contract is the same as trading it for Waller? No it isn't.
Quote:
but in the NFL success can be boiled down to consistently drafting players good enough to earn second contracts. If you do that you set your team up for success in many ways (I won't get into them here or it will be a "big post" but I think most people understand this).
but regardless if you drafted the player or not you need to pay for the second contract. Waller was that player. I explained why I would not have been interested in acquiring him and I also explained why I understood why Schoen/Daboll would be and a 3rd round pick for the privilege of paying him is worth it IMO.
if you don't understand it, that's not on me.
I still don't think you read my post. I said I agree with you if this was an isolated situation. I said Schoen hasn't been good at all. But what you are saying doesn't really make sense. You are saying that drafting a good player and giving him a second contract is the same as trading it for Waller? No it isn't.
I didn't say it was the same, I said there would be benefits if they had drafted him but outside of those benefits it's not that different making a second contract decision on a player you drafted vs signing one as a UFA vs trading for a veteran who already signed their 2nd contract (it's a big cap hit in all of them):
Quote:
away a 3rd round pick should not be minimized. It was a terrible trade if he is in fact retiring./////
I'm fine with the risk. They are trying to get better, you need to take risks, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
Don't forget they got a third for Toney (trying to clean up more moves from previous regime), so it kind of cancels.....
kind of cancels? I'd call it throwing away good money after bad. I never liked the premise of the trade with Waller's injury history and it struck me Gettlemanesque, sign the injured vet who will magically make the O ignite.
Quote:
In comment 16434973 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
away a 3rd round pick should not be minimized. It was a terrible trade if he is in fact retiring./////
I'm fine with the risk. They are trying to get better, you need to take risks, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
Don't forget they got a third for Toney (trying to clean up more moves from previous regime), so it kind of cancels.....
kind of cancels? I'd call it throwing away good money after bad. I never liked the premise of the trade with Waller's injury history and it struck me Gettlemanesque, sign the injured vet who will magically make the O ignite.
The cost wasn't on the same planet as what Gentlemen did with Golladay. This comparison was, and continues to be, absolutely awful.
the Giants are at best 30/70 hit rate in the 3rd round (and the entire NFL is not much better), I'd gamble on a known quantity like Waller 10 times out of 10 given the chance for a 3rd round. Maybe trading Toney for Waller straight up would have made some of the draft pick huggers happier, but it was basically what they did.
it didn't work out, you move on.
fans need to stop being such draft pick huggers.
The Rams drafted all of these players in 2023:
Byron Young (Third Round)
Kobie Turner (Third Round)
Davis Allen (Fifth Round)
Puka Nacua (Fifth Round)
Just because the Giants suck at drafting doesn't mean that other teams do, or that we can't do any better. The answer isn't to constantly trade picks for players or trade up, but to get better scouts.
And from the Giants:
Victor Cruz (Undrafted).
Ahmad Bradshaw (Seventh Round).
Brandon Jacobs (Fourth Round).
Justin Tuck (Third Round).
the Rams have not made a 1st round pick since Obama was President.
Fans here would be suicidal.
Yeah, if Wesley from his mom's basement is all we got then it's definitely not worthy of a pin imo
the comparison to the Burns trade is asinine. not only is he 4 years younger, Burns has been the picture of health and consistency compared to where Waller was before we traded for him. and LOL at a 30-year old Waller still being in his prime. that is absurd.
pundits may have praised the trade, but they were dumb too. better to admit your mistakes than to excuse them.
What a good scouting/coaching organization (leaves us out I know) should be able to turn a 3 into is an adequate to good IOL or S after a somewhat bumpy rookie year.
the comparison to the Burns trade is asinine. not only is he 4 years younger, Burns has been the picture of health and consistency compared to where Waller was before we traded for him. and LOL at a 30-year old Waller still being in his prime. that is absurd.
pundits may have praised the trade, but they were dumb too. better to admit your mistakes than to excuse them.
that's not the logic. I'll slow it down for you or maybe I should type in all caps so you can get it like my 75-year old father.
the league-wide success rate for 3rd round picks (with success being loosely defined as simply becoming a starter) is under 30%. that means for every 10 3rd round picks a team makes (every team league-wide - not just the Giants) less than 3 become "regular" starters and regular is even loosely defined as starting half their games for the time they even remain in the league.
And we know this is purely quantitative and considers nothing qualitative - we all know sometimes starters start for reasons other than quality. beyond just being "next warm body" some players simply start because they were drafted but for this purpose we will ignore all that and simply accept the ~30% number.
So, knowing we what we know it's important not to be a draft pick hugger dreaming of the anomalies, the against the odds players who do become starters or better from this place in the draft and when an opportunity is presented to obtain a player with an elite or worst case above average track record for the cost of the 3rd round pick you take it when it is a position of need (like Waller for the Giants).
Does it mean you cannot find a gem in the 3rd round (or later). Of course not. The league is littered with examples of players drafted late who excelled like Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, James Harrison - but that doesn't mean drafting your future QB with a 6th round comp pick should be your strategy and if someone offered you a potential starting QB for your 6th round comp pick you would obviously make that trade. It simply means the odds are against it. for every team, not just the Giants. It also doesn't mean the trade will work out (like Waller didn't).
if you don't understand this, read it again, and if you still don't understand it read it another time. and then if you still don't understand it then just deactivate your account.
What I didn’t like was that we didn’t try and trade for a WR or improve that position more than a 3rd round pick. Bellinger had shown pretty well as a rookie. I thought he was an ascending player. It seemed like they moved him to be a blocker only which made no sense.
that’s a lot of words, but this is where your argument breaks down. Waller was years removed from elite (if he was ever there at all) when we traded for him. and an “above average track record” means exactly squat if the guy can’t stay on the field. we get it - you are jaded by the Giants’ shitty drafting - but that doesn’t mean that piling more injured players on top of the most oft-injured roster in the league is a shrewd gamble. it was dumb bc Waller was never going to stay healthy. he had already proven that he couldn’t before we acquired him, and somehow coming to MetLife and St. Ronnie Barnes was going to fix it?
as I already noted, the restructure was horrendous and that was the mistake.
It made a good trade into a bad deal, but because that decision (the restructure) shouldn't have been made still does not negate that the trade is one you do make (for most teams).
Additionally I have made clear Waller is not a player I would have acquired, but it's not because of the 3rd round pick cost, it's more because of the state the NY Giants were/are in from a roster quality standpoint. I viewed him as a bad fit for the Giants because I did not expect they would be competitive and represented a luxury they would not be able to take advantage of if he were healthy. But that's a Giants thing - if it was the Cowboys or Eagles who made the trade or even someone like the Chargers (where I expected them to be in 2023) makes perfect sense.
trading for him and restructuring him were two components of the same boneheaded decision. nice try, though.
My point was trading a 3rd round pick for an established player is something smart teams do when given the opportunity. I explained why for the Giants I would not have done it but for most teams it's the right move. but people complain about the Slayton contract too, so you can't have it both ways.
bottom line, trading draft picks for old, overpaid, injured players is dumb. there’s nothing you can say that changes that. it was dumb then and it’s dumb now.
bottom line, trading draft picks for old, overpaid, injured players is dumb. there’s nothing you can say that changes that. it was dumb then and it’s dumb now.
ok, you keep drafting Damontre Moore's and Jaylon Hosleys and the smart teams would flip those picks for Darren Waller's and more often than not the trades work out.
It will end up terrible but the vast majority of us liked the gamble at the time considering where things stood with the team then.
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reporters? Can you confirm?
ironically the only thing on twitter when i searched was this wes steinberg post from yesterday, would be funny if the giant beats got scooped by a pretend beat.
Wesley Steinberg
@WesSteinberg
#Giants TE Darren Waller is retiring.
Waller overcame a lot in his career and life, including addiction struggles. However, one season of playing with Daniel Jones was too much.
Imagine how we feel with 5!
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that 3rd to draft another Matt Peart or Oshane Ximines or Davis Webb.
the Giants are at best 30/70 hit rate in the 3rd round (and the entire NFL is not much better), I'd gamble on a known quantity like Waller 10 times out of 10 given the chance for a 3rd round. Maybe trading Toney for Waller straight up would have made some of the draft pick huggers happier, but it was basically what they did.
it didn't work out, you move on.
fans need to stop being such draft pick huggers.
This is the correct take. Trading for known quantities seems to be a better ROI than the draft capital given up.
It's the same across all sports. I'll never forget the outrage on the Jesus Montero/Pineda trade. Turned out to be a bust on all sides, but there is something about giving up somebody's potential upside that bothers people. I'll take the known quantity over 'upside'.
And at the end of the it, Waller was still the second leading receiver for the Giants last year.
No. It's not correct. It's wrong. We get on those that make excuses for Daniel Jones. The same needs to be done here with JS.
JS must recognize what his team is and was. That’s his job. Last year he should have recognized his team wasn't going anywhere. That's his job. Blowing draft picks, when is it ever smart when you are in Rebuild to expend draft picks on older players past their prime? Someone mentioned Burns and Waller as similar but he is 25. So, it isn’t near the same vs an often-injured 30 yo TE.
The comments that he was in his prime is way off-base. C'mon. If he was so much in his prime, who would want him right now before he announced? You mean he went from "prime” “to "shot" in 1 year?
And any talk that "everybody wanted him" is revisionist history like when we used to hear the same about Solder after he was shown to be a bust. For any of us confident that the team was going to suck - there is no way you would want to risk - and I highlight the word risk-(the same issue with Jones and his injuries) that we wanted to see picks expended for a team going nowhere. The GM has to understand Rebuild vs going for it in terms of his team’s capability.
And any talk about "wash;" since when are GM's in the business of "wash" when their team sucks?
It was a bad move. Let’s stop giving excuses to JS just because some thought that the Giants might be good. They aren't the GM that is paid to be right nor do they have all the data the GM has.
But Schoen made other bad moves. But we gave up other draft picks. But but but. Irrelevant. It was a good gamble that was uniformly praised. Didn’t work out.
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
some moves are almost universally panned by the fans and Solder was one.
Pretty sure there is history on all these threads.
Again revisionist history. This will probably happen with Waller down the road too. Many many many on this board were applauding the move. We got rid of the disaster that was there before and we were getting a major bump up- was much much of the talk.
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Solder and absolutely no one wanted to make him the highest paid lineman in the league...
Again revisionist history. This will probably happen with Waller down the road too. Many many many on this board were applauding the move. We got rid of the disaster that was there before and we were getting a major bump up- was much much of the talk.
go ahead and check the archives. LT absolutely needed to be upgraded but Solder was mediocre at best in NE and making him the highest paid LT in the league did not have a lot of support.
lol.
there was a lot of positivity because he was replacing Ereck Flowers....however most of the positivity became tempered when the contract details were revealed and people turned on the signing by and large because of the money.
linked below to show I'm not ducking my apology....
link - ( New Window )
https://theathletic.com/273450/2018/03/14/what-the-free-agent-signing-of-nate-solder-means-for-the-giants/
lol.
there was a lot of positivity because he was replacing Ereck Flowers....however most of the positivity became tempered when the contract details were revealed and people turned on the signing by and large because of the money.
linked below to show I'm not ducking my apology.... link - ( New Window )
+1. Thank you. What a mess he was.
solder went off a cliff but his first year he was decent. that's how FA goes. if they didnt spend the $ on him its not like they would have written a check to fans. they would have spent it on someone else we all would have ended up complaining about (like waller).
you miss 100% of the shots you dont take. waller was a shot they took without much downside. same with solder. it is almost impossible to get good veteran players in the NFL at premium positions.
So far he'sbeen mediocre at best.
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Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. .
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
This is precious. It’s not difficult to look these things up. From the thread:
Like the move
giantstock : 3/14/2023 4:44 pm : link
It matches what the team is trying to do by re-signing Jones and Barkley. If you are going to go for it- then go for it. And you go for it not by getting a team's "3rd WR" like bozo DG did getting Philly's WR.
If he is healthy this is a big impact.
Sure as hell looks like you were in fact, on board with the trade to me! Oops! 😂
The Internet is forever - ( New Window )
But Schoen made other bad moves. But we gave up other draft picks. But but but. Irrelevant. It was a good gamble that was uniformly praised. Didn’t work out.
More bullshit revisionist history. Here’s the thread. There were plenty of rational Giants fans who didn’t like the trade or were concerned about Waller’s ability to stay on the field (not you, Chris).
Original Waller thread - ( New Window )
Yeah, we could have gotten Matt Peart instead
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In comment 16435775 Chris in Philly said:
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Everyone was creaming their jeans when the trade went down. Thread after thread about how he would be the number one receiving option. .
Ditto back at you. You are trying to revise history. None of us wanted this that were confident that the team was going to stink would ever want to see picks being wasted for an often injured older player.
What happens is every year The Blue Shades eventually come on - and people don't want to believe their team is going to stink. So when trades are made or FA pickups are made for older players but better some group likes it. However let's not confuse that with a majority. Not even close.
As stated on other email - you are making the same tired revisionist history post that used to be made for Solder.
This is precious. It’s not difficult to look these things up. From the thread:
Like the move
giantstock : 3/14/2023 4:44 pm : link
It matches what the team is trying to do by re-signing Jones and Barkley. If you are going to go for it- then go for it. And you go for it not by getting a team's "3rd WR" like bozo DG did getting Philly's WR.
If he is healthy this is a big impact.
Sure as hell looks like you were in fact, on board with the trade to me! Oops! 😂 The Internet is forever - ( New Window )
Notice what I said -- "Like the move - it matches what Giants are trying to do with Barkley and Jones." Now if you are so astute and searching you can find that I wanted teh Giants to rebuild. ANd if they weren't then you have to try to win.
Just as I was so pissed about Barkley - but once teh Gianst got him, oyu cansee I was on baord IF they got him an OL.
And to be closer to his wife in Vegas