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| Re: McCarthy, JJ Late December I said day 2 Early February (after watching 24 games) I said Top 10. The league likes him more than fans (which is OK) But you gotta keep watching / learning / removing initial bias to have any credibility. Work is never done. |
If Daboll bet his career on him I would trust their judgement over mine.
The more I watch the more I think Maye is gonna fall to us. Which is fine to me.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
No offense, but I don't see how this makes any sense at all. If you think he could be elite, then there is certainly a high probability that he could be decent but not great, and it is more likely than him being a total bust.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
That's what I don't get. You can have your opinion, whatever it is on McCarthy, but I don't see the comparisons to Jones coming out of college. Where do you see the similarities?
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
Why? Just what exactly do you not like? Or is it just a feeling, which needs support.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
So, how would you approach QB then? Let's assume it's Williams-Daniels-Maye in the top 3. What would you do?
I'm not interested in comments about winning meaningless games. It's not productive and Schoen can't fall back on that excuse either. 6-11 was about right for this team when you take into account the Buffalo, NYJ & LAR losses.
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
That's what I don't get. You can have your opinion, whatever it is on McCarthy, but I don't see the comparisons to Jones coming out of college. Where do you see the similarities?
I'm not comparing players, just the situations. I didn't think Jones was a day one guy. And I feel similarly about McCarthy.
However, and I have said the repeatedly, McCarthy is more talented than Jones.
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
Why? Just what exactly do you not like? Or is it just a feeling, which needs support.
Again, I'm not comparing the players, just the circumstances.
I just don't see anything in McCarthy's game that screams special. He looks like a game-manager type to me. Maybe with a game-manager plus ceiling. And that can work, but why over-invest in it?
I would rather roll the dice selecting Nix later than selecting McCarthy early.
Maybe I’m mistaken, I’m no scout by any means and might not be right about what I’m seeing, but if his throwing motion is necessary to get the ball where it needs to go, that offsets the processing speed in a game measured in fragments of a second, no?
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
So, how would you approach QB then? Let's assume it's Williams-Daniels-Maye in the top 3. What would you do?
I'm not interested in comments about winning meaningless games. It's not productive and Schoen can't fall back on that excuse either. 6-11 was about right for this team when you take into account the Buffalo, NYJ & LAR losses.
That's a good question. I would either (1) select a WR or OL at #6 or (2) trade out of six.
I may then look to package a few picks to grab Nix at the back end of day one or early day two.
I have gone down this path, too. His motion looks too long. You wouldn't confuse with an economical stroke/quick release. Daniels, for example, has a sound stroke and he can get the ball off very quickly.
I came hearing expert types saying McCarthy doesn't layer enough throws with varying ball speed or trajectory. I see that, too.
I will let Schoen, Daboll and whoever else decides these things for the Giants.....and pray for the best.
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is his throwing motion. Love the processing speed and decision making, but in the very limited sample size I’ve watched, it looks like his throwing motion has a lot of torque from his midsection to offset average arm strength. Basically, it looks a lot like his release is longer so that he can actually get velocity on the ball.
I have gone down this path, too. His motion looks too long. You wouldn't confuse with an economical stroke/quick release. Daniels, for example, has a sound stroke and he can get the ball off very quickly.
I came hearing expert types saying McCarthy doesn't layer enough throws with varying ball speed or trajectory. I see that, too.
That critique would certainly hold true if he’s, kinda twisting his core, then uncorking a bit. If you watch Daniels or Maye, then McCarthy back-to-back, especially with Maye, there’s a stark difference. Maye seems like the ball jumps out of his hand.
Issue being, it seems necessary. And if that is the case, it raises 2 major questions: does it equalize his major positive trait - quick decision making, and:or if he needs to fix the technique, does that bring him an above average arm to an average or below average?
These questions are in earnest, before anyone jumps down my throat.
I may have underestimated JJ originally and it stuck with me too much in saying he was a Day 3 pick. So I will stipulate to Day 2 pick at best but no higher.
Fire away.
I think he has a very safe floor as I stated above. He will be no worse than a more pocket savvy, better pre and postsnap field reader, stronger arm and more athletic version of Daniel Jones. Perhaps not a lot of big plays and lower rd number but very low ints and efficient at moving the chains with his legs and arm.
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In comment 16436785 bw in dc said:
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
So, how would you approach QB then? Let's assume it's Williams-Daniels-Maye in the top 3. What would you do?
I'm not interested in comments about winning meaningless games. It's not productive and Schoen can't fall back on that excuse either. 6-11 was about right for this team when you take into account the Buffalo, NYJ & LAR losses.
That's a good question. I would either (1) select a WR or OL at #6 or (2) trade out of six.
I may then look to package a few picks to grab Nix at the back end of day one or early day two.
I can understand drafting Odunze at 6 (I don't think Nabers is rated as highly due to character concerns for Mara n co), but drafting another top 6 right tackle at 6 would be a real head scratcher...
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The more I think about it, I think either JJ will be an elite QB or a total bust. There's no in between.
I think he has a very safe floor as I stated above. He will be no worse than a more pocket savvy, better pre and postsnap field reader, stronger arm and more athletic version of Daniel Jones. Perhaps not a lot of big plays and lower rd number but very low ints and efficient at moving the chains with his legs and arm.
If only the Giants played in the Big 10. JJ would thrive.
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In comment 16436770 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The more I think about it, I think either JJ will be an elite QB or a total bust. There's no in between.
I think he has a very safe floor as I stated above. He will be no worse than a more pocket savvy, better pre and postsnap field reader, stronger arm and more athletic version of Daniel Jones. Perhaps not a lot of big plays and lower rd number but very low ints and efficient at moving the chains with his legs and arm.
If only the Giants played in the Big 10. JJ would thrive.
We will see, but I would absolutely take him at 6 or 6 plus a future 3rd. I would not trade up to top 3 for him or Maye.
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In comment 16436864 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16436770 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The more I think about it, I think either JJ will be an elite QB or a total bust. There's no in between.
I think he has a very safe floor as I stated above. He will be no worse than a more pocket savvy, better pre and postsnap field reader, stronger arm and more athletic version of Daniel Jones. Perhaps not a lot of big plays and lower rd number but very low ints and efficient at moving the chains with his legs and arm.
If only the Giants played in the Big 10. JJ would thrive.
We will see, but I would absolutely take him at 6 or 6 plus a future 3rd. I would not trade up to top 3 for him or Maye.
Absolute at 5 or 6 but not at 3. How silly.
But keep posting about him...it gives me something to counter easily.
The Vikings or the Broncos, I think he’s a star.
If he comes here? I think he’s a bust.
That’s how much faith I have in the New York Giants right now.
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In comment 16436871 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16436864 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16436770 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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The more I think about it, I think either JJ will be an elite QB or a total bust. There's no in between.
I think he has a very safe floor as I stated above. He will be no worse than a more pocket savvy, better pre and postsnap field reader, stronger arm and more athletic version of Daniel Jones. Perhaps not a lot of big plays and lower rd number but very low ints and efficient at moving the chains with his legs and arm.
If only the Giants played in the Big 10. JJ would thrive.
We will see, but I would absolutely take him at 6 or 6 plus a future 3rd. I would not trade up to top 3 for him or Maye.
Absolute at 5 or 6 but not at 3. How silly.
But keep posting about him...it gives me something to counter easily.
Trading up to 3 would cost pick 6, 47, a future 1st and future 2nd probably. So yeah, no way at 3 but definitely at 5 or 6. How is that silly, you've become a troll to me and it's quite entertaining.
Haha
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The more I think about it, I think either JJ will be an elite QB or a total bust. There's no in between.
No offense, but I don't see how this makes any sense at all. If you think he could be elite, then there is certainly a high probability that he could be decent but not great, and it is more likely than him being a total bust.
I think it applies more to Caleb Williams - because it's not clear where his head is at.
I don't know if the other QBs have that concern.
Haha
If your bias makes you see red on any post about the draft and turns you into a troll, then all I can say is I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Nevertheless, I find it to be very entertaining, so keep it up please! :)
The odds are pretty low that all six QBs if taken in the first round will turn out as successful franchise QBs.
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is the same as reading any and every thread and seeing you there talking him up, no matter the topic. You even create threads that indirectly look to chat about JJ being the best thing the Giants could do in this draft.
Haha
If your bias makes you see red on any post about the draft and turns you into a troll, then all I can say is I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Nevertheless, I find it to be very entertaining, so keep it up please! :)
I disagree with you. And your volume of posting on JJ is simply overboard so you will see my posts saying so.
The entertainment is seeing you continue it.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
Ha. That's what I've been telling my friends for weeks
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In comment 16436785 bw in dc said:
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
That's what I don't get. You can have your opinion, whatever it is on McCarthy, but I don't see the comparisons to Jones coming out of college. Where do you see the similarities?
I'm not comparing players, just the situations. I didn't think Jones was a day one guy. And I feel similarly about McCarthy.
However, and I have said the repeatedly, McCarthy is more talented than Jones.
As special a class as 1999 with Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Donovan Mcnabb and Shaun king? :)
I respect your opinion, but I think if we don't take JJM and he is there then we would be best off trading down and amassing picks instead of taking Odunze.
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In comment 16436785 bw in dc said:
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
Why? Just what exactly do you not like? Or is it just a feeling, which needs support.
Again, I'm not comparing the players, just the circumstances.
I just don't see anything in McCarthy's game that screams special. He looks like a game-manager type to me. Maybe with a game-manager plus ceiling. And that can work, but why over-invest in it?
I would rather roll the dice selecting Nix later than selecting McCarthy early.
I have the same problem. That doesn't mean he won't be good. He might be the best QB to ever play the game. But how anyone can look at him playing and say "that guy looks special", seems like a stretch. Lots of guys who look "special" are busts. I'm not saying anything about the outcome. I'm only saying that when you looked at Josh Allen losing games at Wyoming, you could see it. Josh Rosen's arm looked special, whether or not he was a bust.
Again, I'm not drawing any conclusions here. I'm simply stating that I would prefer to at least understand why someone is being drafted rather than do the mental gymnastics that are done with Danny Jones. I was a really big Jones fan. But when people use metrics to explain how he has a big arm because of his deep ball success rate, rather than acknowledging that the metrics only show that he has a good deep ball, but not a strong arm, it drives me bananas. You shouldn't have to be convinced that someone has a live arm. It's like arguing about whether or not a player is tall.
It feels like deja vu. JJMC and DJ are different QBs, but there are enough scouting reports stating the "no special skill set" to give me pause. I'm certainly not a scout, but scouts and GMs are most often wrong. My friend is a superforecaster. I read books on exciting topics like that. Being a GM doesn't make someone magically a good predictor of future success. In fact, experts are frequently worse than amateurs because they rely on their gut, feelings, or saying a player has the "it factor". Even if they were amazing at predicting future success, like a weatherman - an amazing weatherman predicts a range of outcomes. He can say a 90% chance of a blizzard and you could wake up to no snow. That doesn't mean is formula was wrong, but that the 10% outcome happened. Now that's for an amazing weatherman. Most likely aren't. If you have 32 GMS or weathermen, some will be great, some will be awful, and the rest will be in between somewhere.
Personally, I'd rather draft a guy that has some amazing traits, like Saquon Barkley did. Now he was obviously overdraft based on his position, but I'd rather take a HR swing and miss at a high pick then have to speculate and squint. Then you just rinse and repeat until you hit a HR. I think Go Temps has the same type of philosophy.
By the way, apply that to any successful person you know (or unsuccessful). There are traits that make it was easier to succeed or fail, but there's often a razor's edge between a successful and not successful person once you have those traits. Success snowballs often based on a decision that was made with an awful process, or people have enough genuine success to give them a wide shoulder. That's how you end up with a GM like DG. People often live off of past success. This is less true in some professions than other ones, for sure. But I'd have a really hard time listening to someone tell me that someone knows how to draft QBs. Even the patriots passed on TB multiple times. So those GMs and the rest of us on this board all have that in common.
If the top 3 QB's are gone and he can be had a 6 (or a slight trade up to 5) I would take him. But I could just as easily get on board with trading down in that scenario (to a team that loves him), to get more draft assets.
If the top 3 QB's are gone and he can be had a 6 (or a slight trade up to 5) I would take him. But I could just as easily get on board with trading down in that scenario (to a team that loves him), to get more draft assets.
Maye should sit too, really. His footwork is a mess, and causes his accuracy and ball placement to be erratic.
Daniels has the weakest arm of the top 4. How's it work outside the numbers in Metlife? There's questions with all these guys.
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In comment 16436785 bw in dc said:
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the less I want the Giants take him.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
That's what I don't get. You can have your opinion, whatever it is on McCarthy, but I don't see the comparisons to Jones coming out of college. Where do you see the similarities?
I'm not comparing players, just the situations. I didn't think Jones was a day one guy. And I feel similarly about McCarthy.
However, and I have said the repeatedly, McCarthy is more talented than Jones.
You repeatly called him DJ McCarthy on college game threads. And noted how ‘you just don’t see it with him’.
He would not have declared for the draft if he wasn’t being told he’s a top ten QB in the draft. You may dislike him but NFL GMs likely disagree with you.
Maye, McCarthy, Nix, Penix all need time to adjust.
The last time I had that feeling was 2019.
Sorry, I could not disagree more. First off in 2019 the QB you are referring too was matched up with Haskins (who did nothing in the NFL btw before his death) and thus yes, a push to move him to the top of the draft was a huge huge mistake.
Right now you are hearing whispers that many NFL folks feel JJM is a top QB, a possible sleeper as far as being thye best QB coming out and you think he is somehow like Daniel Jones? NO.
Duke vs Michigan.. Bigtime games played vs NO bigtime games played and big time opponents destroyed Jones repeatedly. All we heard was look at what he did in these complete overmatched games- but the problem is they didn't win and this isn't college it is the NFL.
JJM has been a leader, a play maker when needed but most of all shows ability and smarts that many QB's lack. It isn't about physical gifts it is about innate ability and intagiables.
Daniel Jones has a physical gifts- size, speed, decent arm but cannot for the life himself do anything quickly and cannot overcome mental liabilities and the physical or athletic liabilities of teammates. Thus he is very dependent on too many other factors to succeed.
I still say my first QB of choice is Maye, my number 2 is Williams (but he will be gone already) and my solid #3 right now is JJM.
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Each of whom could wind up a franchise Qb. Very good year to be drafting a Qb. I feel we can assume the first three teams are each taking the Qb of their choice from what is available to them. The Giants should consider moving up to 4 and taking their choice. I am partial to Michael Penix - injury and age are a risk, but special arm talent outweigh those risks for me. I am happy to leave the final decision to people who know better, though. I think Daboll knows better.
The odds are pretty low that all six QBs if taken in the first round will turn out as successful franchise QBs.
You can say that about every single position, and all of it is equally meaningless.
i dont think it's a coincidence that urban meyer was gushing about jjm way before a lot of the draft hype started.
in terms of play style i dont think the comp is great because i see differences between what jjm did at UM and how Smith's career evolved, mainly that smith was so risk averse while jjm seems willing to go off script and take chances, but even with the the game manager moniker Smith made 3 pro bowls and amassed a 99-67-1 career record. Over his final 2 years in the league in washington at age 34/36 after the leg injury he even went 11-5. so even at the end with harbough or reid he was winning. if 20 year old alex smith was in this draft he'd easily go top 5. the nfl values competent qb play even if it's not elite - that's why he made almost 200m in his career. the odds of any of this year's qbs playing 16 years with a +30 career record are probably below 10%.
drafting the next alex smith is a good outcome even if it only buys 5 cheap years to look for someone better and then trade him for a pick elsewhere.
What I do not want them to do is repeat 2019 and get a guy just because they need a guy. This team desperately needs a QB, and history has shown they will stay with a QB too long when he is not producing. I don't want Daniel Jones II.
If the QB is not there get a WR or CB and pick up a developmental prospect in the 3rd/4th and try again next year when Jones is actually gone.
What I do not want them to do is repeat 2019 and get a guy just because they need a guy. This team desperately needs a QB, and history has shown they will stay with a QB too long when he is not producing. I don't want Daniel Jones II.
If the QB is not there get a WR or CB and pick up a developmental prospect in the 3rd/4th and try again next year when Jones is actually gone.
any competent qb is a difference maker when 1/3-1/2 of the league is playing incompetents.
josh allen needed 2 years to become the difference maker he ended up and was very game manager-ish for the first 2 years. they still made the playoffs in 2019.
this staff has done a good job getting competent qb play out of 4 different players in the last 2 years. 1 a udfa, another a minimum salary journeyman in his only NFL start. that's why lock thought this was a good landing spot. if they find someone they like enough to spend a high pick on them there's a good possibility the development outcome is progressive instead of regressive as it was with jones.