I was curious over the weekend about the exact details of what went wrong with the offensive line since Super Bowl XLVI. To sum it up: a bunch of darts thrown . . . one bullseye, couple others hit the target, the rest into the wall.
The offensive line in the late 2000’s was solidly built up through free agency/waiver wire (McKenzie, O’Hara & Boothe), quality drafting (Snee & Diehl) and a diamond in the rough undrafted Rich Seubert. All thanks to Ernie Acorsi and his staff. As I recall, Acorsi had one foot out the door by December 2006, the draft was orchestrated by Reese starting in 2007. Reese’s two best drafts were probably 2007 & 2008, which helped anchor the foundation of the 5 year run from 2007-2011. Reese’s best OL moves were all early in his tenure, once 2012 rolled around it went off the rails a bit (I did my best to describe the history below, but some details might be a little off . . . apologies). I’m only going to mention big money FA signings and draft picks.
2007 – Reese drafts little used Adam Koets in (6th rd) was on team for almost 4 years
2008 - No significant OL signings/drafting
2009 – Reese drafts Will Beatty (2nd rd) has some growing pains for 2 seasons, but becomes starting LT in 2011 with Diehl moving to LG because Seubert released after 2010, eye injury puts Beatty on IR and Diehl returns to LT with Booth at LG for remainder of 2011. Starts all of 2012, 2013 & 2014 then none of 2015 and a little of 2106 with a variety of injuries.
2010 – Reese signs OT William Andrews (5yr/30+ million) from Philly, has a lingering back issue that never improves, plays sparingly and is released after 1 year. Reese drafts Mitch Petrus (5th rd) who was on team for 3 years as a rarely used backup.
2011 – Reese signs David Baas (5 yr/27+ million contract) who starts at C in 2011 for majority of season and all of playoff run, starts in 2012 for entire season, 2013 mostly injured (then released). Reese drafts James Brewer (4th rd) who was on team for 4 years (played some in 2013, but never made much of an impact).
2012 – Reese drafts Brandon Mosley (4th rd) and Matt McCants (6th rd) neither last long at all
2013 - Reese drafts Justin Pugh (1st rd) after hearing for a few years about OL decline (Terron Armstead 3rd & David Bahktiari 4th were drafted later). Pugh was healthy for the most part and as far as productivity . . . not gonna do it (he was serviceable), and no 2nd contract.
2014 - Reese drafts C Weston Richburg (2nd rd) who struggled filling in at G in 2014, but was a productive C in 2015 & 2016, then got injured in 2017 and was not resigned. Reese signs Geoff Schwartz to a 4 yr/$16+ million contract. He starts maybe 15 games in 2 years with multiple injuries. Then “ta-ta”
2015 – Reese drafts Ereck Flowers (1st rd) I’m just gonna leave it there . . .
2016 – No significant OL signings/drafting
2017 – Reese draft Adam Bisnowaty (6th rd) active and starts for only one game (week 16) . . . practice squad for remainder of 2017 then waived in May 2018.
Dave Gettlemen replaces Jerry Reese as GM
2018 – Gettlemen’s on a mission!! Signs Nate Solder (4 yrs/62 million), Patrick Omameh (3 yrs/15 million) . . . Solder commentary similar to Flowers, just can’t do it. Omamaeh started first 6 games at guard, hurt his knee, then NY quickly released him. Signed by JAX and started some games for them in late 2018, after that couple years of backup duty for 3 different teams. Cannot remember why they shit-canned him so quickly . . . Gettlemen drafts Will Hernandez (2nd rd) who starts the majority of his 4 years at G . . . definitely had his issues in NY (has played better in Arizona).
2019 – Gettlemen drafts George Asafo-Adjei (7th rd) one year of practice squad I think
2020 – Mr. Hog Molly continues throwing darts. Signs Cameron Fleming (1 yr/3.4 million) starts entire season for Solder (COVID opt-out), then signs with Denver (still there, now on his 2nd contract with them). Gettlemen drafts Andrew Thomas (1st rd) Bullseye! Matt Peart (3rd rd) a bit of a small school project with potential. Has started 7 games in four years with some in game back-up duty. Probably seen the last of him here . . .
2021 – No significant signings/drafting
Joe Schoen replaces Dave Gettlemen as GM (history recent now – eliminating player descriptions)
2022 – Schoen gets down to business: Signs Mark Glowinski (3yrs/18+ million), drafts Evan Neal (1st), Josh Ezeudu (3rd) & Marcus McKethan (6th)
2023 - No significant signings/drafting
No intention of spoiling anyone’s Monday morning coffee with this, but I went down the rabbit hole last night and decided to start typing . . . I also feel the recent FA signings are encouraging, I’m hoping we have turned the corner – it’s time to start hitting the target.
section, I hope you're right about JMS: for guy as weight trained as he appeared as a rookie, he needs a good deal more ballast against power NTs and a lot better reads on stunts. I'm confident (??) Bricillo will cure the latter.
JMS was known to not be a "power" blocker. He is more technique. It was pointed out by Skinner and others he does not anchor well against a bull rush. Neither did Shaun O'Hara....
IMV, he just seemed to lose his technique and failed to recognize defensive schemes, as if he was paralyzed (mentally) more and more as the season went on. Maybe the injury was the cause and he had issues moving.
And this summary shows clearly how little OL was really a priority for Reese or DG. Half hearted attempts with no plan behind them.
I recall that Omameh was solid for Jax but the Giants had him switch sides.
So JMS ability to handle nose tackles should not be a surprise. Likely, the Giants anticipated that 2023 would be a learning year and that he would bulk up during the offseason. Hope that is true. Rookie o-linemen often struggle, especially rookie centers.
a lot of activity but not a lot of achievement as coughlin would say.
the pick instead of david wilson was cordy glenn. he was everyones "top remaining player" in that draft.
The ol' "Everything good is because of 'TC' and everything bad is the fault of that dastardly Jerry Reese!"
Ahhhhh, memories!
Who do you think identified Snee? When was the last time the Giants used a 2nd round pick or higher on a OL in the draft outside LT?
When was the last young big ticket FA signed before McKenzie?
I would include O'Hara. He was young but I don't think his deal was very high priced.
Reese was one of the worst GMs I can ever remember in the NFL but Mara wouldn't get rid of him and his little dog Ross.
DG wasn't much better.
The jury is still out on Schoen but early returns have not been promising.
No wonder a lot of us have lost interest.
you realize accorsi was GM when they acquired all the OL from the sb runs right? through 2004 reese title was pro scout. ohara was signed ahead of 2004 and mackenzie ahead of 2005.
reese obviously deserves credit for scouting the guys they got in the draft (diehl 03, seubert udfa 2001, snee 04) but there's a pretty big difference between being in the org vs the main decision maker.
from 07 on when he became GM they made a lot of poor FA decisions on OL, and when he backfilled himself with Marc Ross to run the drafts they scouted even poorlier. Acorsi had his problems on the OL for much of his tenure too but towards the end, early in coughlins tenure, together they successfully made it a priority with ohara, mackenzie, snee acquisitions.
I think most of would agree the high water mark for the Accorsi era line was 2008. And there's a prevailing myth Reese didn't do enough to transition.
I think the 2012 line throws a bit of a wrench in this story.
PB – 20th, RB – 4th, PEN – 12th
Stud: Though he gets next to no praise, Will Beatty (+22.4) had a year that warranted Pro Bowl consideration. The penalties aren’t ideal, but there are not many left tackles who can keep their quarterback upright and generate movement in the run game.
Dud: It was David Diehl (-6.2) again, but the truth is he actually performed a lot better in the second half of the season compared to the liability we’ve known him to be.
Summary: A big improvement from this line, which was terrible in 2011. They made a big contribution in the running game while ensuring Eli Manning faced significantly less pressure. Still, this line is in transition to a degree with a few of players getting to that age where the cliff is approaching.
By 2012 Reese had replaced 4/5 starters, and the relative age and investment was similar to the 2008 line. What happens next is Locklear, Baas, and Snee abruptly get hurt and essentially never play again after 2012. Beatty gets hurt at the end 2014 and his career is over.
In the 3 drafts that follow the Giants pick a RT/RG, C, and LT in with top 45 picks. I think the story is much different if they can transition off the 2012 line and by 2015 the starters are:
LT Beatty
LG Schwartz
C Richburg
RG Pugh
RT Flowers
Now why the Giants stopped being able to develop lineman circa 2005, I am not inclined to put that on Reese.
The last very good Giants OL was DD, RS, SOH, CS and KM.
The only player added since that OL who was as good or better than anyone from that OL is Andrew Thomas. Horrific.
"2023 - No significant signings/drafting"
We drafted the #1 rated center in the draft.
If you got that wrong, why bother keep reading?
Never heard that before. So basically two good guards can carry you
[quote][/quote]
Did the Giants have a good offensive line in 2012? Yes or no question.
Totally valid . . . I bit off more than I could chew and started to gloss over and was just looking for "OL' or "OT" and missed a few guards and center because of it
Billy Price
Shane Lemieux
JMS
probably a few others . . .
i dont think anyone held a standalone view of accorsi until it became revisionist history post-SB42. 11 months after he retired at the time of the viking game in 2007 most would have bet eli was destined for failure, coughlin was going to be fired, and his legacy was a total blow up job. that was definitely the general consensus. reese's first offseason he had 0 cap room, the only move he made was signing kawika mitchell for the minimum.
the eli trade in particular right up until sb42 was held up as an overpay with merriman being an instant star, ben being successful right away, and then rivers also being successful right away as a starter (in 06 he made the pro bowl his 3rd season, first as starter, which coincidentally was the year accorsi retired). so in year 4 the clear outcome was that EA had paid a big price for the 3rd best QB in that draft. kiwanuka was being shuttled back and forth between LB/DE and Tuck wasnt tuck yet so the whole "you can never have enough pass rushers" thing was another punchline.
when they won the super bowl everyone went up on pedestals together. eli, coughlin, accorsi, reese. my view is that the first 2 were borderline HOFers who did most of the heavy lifting that propped up the latter 2, who both had their moments and were competent, but also highly flawed.
Who do you think identified Snee? When was the last time the Giants used a 2nd round pick or higher on a OL in the draft outside LT?
When was the last young big ticket FA signed before McKenzie?
I would include O'Hara. He was young but I don't think his deal was very high priced.
Well to be fair, Coughlin had pretty good insight into Snee since he was his son-in-law. *grin*
“The first time I met him I was [coaching] with Jacksonville and I went up to Boston College [to scout a running back]," Coughlin said. "Kate was a freshman at BC and I said, ‘Let’s have dinner tonight.’ She said, ‘Dad, can I bring a friend?’ It was Snee. He doesn’t say a word. Not one word that I can remember.”
The provably bad brush can be applied to the player development post-draft as well, and why Coughlin was fired.
“The first time I met him I was [coaching] with Jacksonville and I went up to Boston College [to scout a running back]," Coughlin said. "Kate was a freshman at BC and I said, ‘Let’s have dinner tonight.’ She said, ‘Dad, can I bring a friend?’ It was Snee. He doesn’t say a word. Not one word that I can remember.”
Hire her now!
Fairer to question for later staffs including the current one though they did just get rid of a bunch of coahces.
heh, those are some fab controvery-generating names in your post header. I think for a time Jerry and Newhouse overlapped and played together; it was not pretty.
Never liked the Wilson pick from the get go, for the Glenn and other reasons--he was a scat back at best and we needed a more robust and reliable ground game to take the pressure off Eli. Then, his unfortunate back condition rendered that all moot and a worse pick.
Boothe doesn't get enough credit: he stepped in as, what, LG?, but was viable as RT in a pinch, as I recall. He stablized the line once inserted.
OK here are some facts about the 2012 season and then you can provide a yes or no answer. Remember simple question, did the Giants have a good offensive line 2012?
- 6th in total points
- 4th in yards per play
- PFF rank 11th best line
- 6th fewest quarterback pressures allowed
- Fewest sacks allowed
- 2nd lowest sack percentage allowed
- 7th highest rush yards per attempt
This is an easy question to answer, kind of like the ability to count to two.
The correct pick on round in retrospect was Mitchell Schwartz. He went 5 picks after Wilson. He was a late climber, but he had the best career of any lineman drafted that year.
To answer your question I would call the OL functional considering the state of the division and schedule overall. Some good moments. Some poor ones. A few other bottom of the pack D's they played that year as well.
I think most of would agree the high water mark for the Accorsi era line was 2008. And there's a prevailing myth Reese didn't do enough to transition.
I think the 2012 line throws a bit of a wrench in this story.
Quote:
11. New York Giants (31)
PB – 20th, RB – 4th, PEN – 12th
Stud: Though he gets next to no praise, Will Beatty (+22.4) had a year that warranted Pro Bowl consideration. The penalties aren’t ideal, but there are not many left tackles who can keep their quarterback upright and generate movement in the run game.
Dud: It was David Diehl (-6.2) again, but the truth is he actually performed a lot better in the second half of the season compared to the liability we’ve known him to be.
Summary: A big improvement from this line, which was terrible in 2011. They made a big contribution in the running game while ensuring Eli Manning faced significantly less pressure. Still, this line is in transition to a degree with a few of players getting to that age where the cliff is approaching.
By 2012 Reese had replaced 4/5 starters, and the relative age and investment was similar to the 2008 line. What happens next is Locklear, Baas, and Snee abruptly get hurt and essentially never play again after 2012. Beatty gets hurt at the end 2014 and his career is over.
In the 3 drafts that follow the Giants pick a RT/RG, C, and LT in with top 45 picks. I think the story is much different if they can transition off the 2012 line and by 2015 the starters are:
LT Beatty
LG Schwartz
C Richburg
RG Pugh
RT Flowers
Now why the Giants stopped being able to develop lineman circa 2005, I am not inclined to put that on Reese.
Sean Locklear is definitely another significant FA signing that was unmentioned in the OP. He was pretty solid as a starter before he suffered essentially a career ending injury.
In general, I don't think that a lot of Giants fans fully appreciate just how much freak injuries have impacted the ability of the team to piece together a functional and consistent Oline between 2011 and 2017.
To answer your question I would call the OL functional considering the state of the division and schedule overall. Some good moments. Some poor ones. A few other bottom of the pack D's they played that year as well.
Here are some general rankings of the 2008 team versus the 2012 team (I couldn't find PFF or pressure grades for 2008, so I've left that off).
So given how close the offense performed, is it fair to say the 2008 line was also functional?
In general, I don't think that a lot of Giants fans fully appreciate just how much freak injuries have impacted the ability of the team to piece together a functional and consistent Oline between 2011 and 2017.
I don't think a lot of fans appreciate how many career shortening injuries impacted the team in general.
By 2012 Reese had retooled the line, and they performed well. Losing three lineman to essentially career ending injuries in a year pulled the rug out from it.
I think 3 things contributed equally:
1) The aforementioned injuries
2) Reese should have drafted a tackle in 2012
3) Coughlin's staff did a terrible job developing the 3 top 45 picks from 2013-2015
2012 did still have Snee (last PB year) and a bunch of JAGS.
2012 also had three huge offense performances. Reid's last game as HC of the Eagles, Saints (Sean Payton's suspension year) and Tampa Bay (worst pass D in league). Last game he ever played healthy again. Those three games they averaged 45 pts/game. Without them that team averaged 22.8 points which is a good indicator of the real talent level.
I also don't think PFF has a lot of value in 2012. CC was not the owner then so any stats at that time are really questionable imv.
There's no real analytical advantage in doing so, as it shrinks an already small data pool. But if that's an important factor to you, subtracting those games brings the average opponents PPG down to 23.4 in 2008 vs. 22.6 in 2012.
But we all know that's fucking nonsense. The teams play the teams they play. And the output is clear.
57 of the 80 potential offensive line starts in 2012 were from players Reese didn't inherit. It's obvious you can't let yourself believe the data -- the 2012 had an equally good total offense, including better pass protection to the 2008 team.
Was the 2008 offensive line more rewarded by subjective honors? Totally.
I'm more interested in how the unit performed and by extension how well the offense performed. So I'll just leave it for you again how those offenses performed.
The real question then becomes, why did line which Reese rebuilt well, fall apart?
i think same principle holds, accorsi went out on a high note having played a big part in assembling the 07-10 OL so it's easier to forget about some of his bad lines under fassel.
reese went out passing on signing whitworth in 17 because he believed in flowers/hart as his bookends.
when the most recent meal you get at a restaurant gives you food poisoning, that's the one you remember. even if it was a restaurant you liked for 10 years prior.
Quote:
that is what got him fired and that is what laid the foundation of an awful decade from 2013 on. thats why he got fired and why people are generally more sour on him. he went on a low note whereas accorsi went out on a high note.
The provably bad brush can be applied to the player development post-draft as well, and why Coughlin was fired.
not really, bc there werent players from those drafts who went on to develop better or thrive elsewhere. they were just bad picks. otc did a study on how many total drafted players got 2nd contracts from any team over that decade and the giants were lowest with jets.
Quote:
...the pick instead of david wilson was cordy glenn. he was everyones "top remaining player" in that draft.
heh, those are some fab controvery-generating names in your post header. I think for a time Jerry and Newhouse overlapped and played together; it was not pretty.
Never liked the Wilson pick from the get go, for the Glenn and other reasons--he was a scat back at best and we needed a more robust and reliable ground game to take the pressure off Eli. Then, his unfortunate back condition rendered that all moot and a worse pick.
Boothe doesn't get enough credit: he stepped in as, what, LG?, but was viable as RT in a pinch, as I recall. He stablized the line once inserted.
boothe also played C for a time i think (seubert did that too).
i think some of their cheaper early successes (like boothe) clouded their judgement in terms of how easy it would be to find cheap OL talent.
does it take sherlock holmes to realize that all 5 guys in your 2012 column never played a game together after 2012?
after ~10 year careers baas age 32 and snee age 31 played 3 games in 2013 then retired, locklear was done at 32 after 2012. boothe signed in oakland for all of 2 years 2m after 2013, replaced by schwartz, jd walton, john jerry.
the big criticism of reese is literally that all those guys were aging up but he was a step slow (or more) replacing them, and when he did he chose poorly. the new cba also triggered at that same point in time which has seemed to hurt OL play more than any other position, which was some bad luck.
Don't be cheap on the OL if you can avoid it but if there is no alternative, you better have a good OL coach. NYG did not. Hopefully that changes this season.
does it take sherlock holmes to realize that all 5 guys in your 2012 column never played a game together after 2012?
It's a rhetorical question.
Snee, Baas, and Locklear never played full strength games after the age of 31.
If you can accept the premise that unit played well in 2012 (which I think the evidence is quite clear they did) -- the question becomes how plausible was it for Reese to have 3 replacements ready in the backlog in anticipation of their careers all essentially ending abruptly?
I think this is one factor, and gets lost in the conversation.
Now just to be clear, my view has never been Reese is blameless. And my view then and now is Reese went on to make a series of terrible mistakes and should have been fired in 2015.
In terms of player development as it relates to the offensive line, I'm certainly open to debating the quality of those players, but of that small number of Reese draftees that commanded 2nd NFL contracts I think 4 of them were lineman, no?