I was curious over the weekend about the exact details of what went wrong with the offensive line since Super Bowl XLVI. To sum it up: a bunch of darts thrown . . . one bullseye, couple others hit the target, the rest into the wall.
The offensive line in the late 2000’s was solidly built up through free agency/waiver wire (McKenzie, O’Hara & Boothe), quality drafting (Snee & Diehl) and a diamond in the rough undrafted Rich Seubert. All thanks to Ernie Acorsi and his staff. As I recall, Acorsi had one foot out the door by December 2006, the draft was orchestrated by Reese starting in 2007. Reese’s two best drafts were probably 2007 & 2008, which helped anchor the foundation of the 5 year run from 2007-2011. Reese’s best OL moves were all early in his tenure, once 2012 rolled around it went off the rails a bit (I did my best to describe the history below, but some details might be a little off . . . apologies). I’m only going to mention big money FA signings and draft picks.
2007 – Reese drafts little used Adam Koets in (6th rd) was on team for almost 4 years
2008 - No significant OL signings/drafting
2009 – Reese drafts Will Beatty (2nd rd) has some growing pains for 2 seasons, but becomes starting LT in 2011 with Diehl moving to LG because Seubert released after 2010, eye injury puts Beatty on IR and Diehl returns to LT with Booth at LG for remainder of 2011. Starts all of 2012, 2013 & 2014 then none of 2015 and a little of 2106 with a variety of injuries.
2010 – Reese signs OT William Andrews (5yr/30+ million) from Philly, has a lingering back issue that never improves, plays sparingly and is released after 1 year. Reese drafts Mitch Petrus (5th rd) who was on team for 3 years as a rarely used backup.
2011 – Reese signs David Baas (5 yr/27+ million contract) who starts at C in 2011 for majority of season and all of playoff run, starts in 2012 for entire season, 2013 mostly injured (then released). Reese drafts James Brewer (4th rd) who was on team for 4 years (played some in 2013, but never made much of an impact).
2012 – Reese drafts Brandon Mosley (4th rd) and Matt McCants (6th rd) neither last long at all
2013 - Reese drafts Justin Pugh (1st rd) after hearing for a few years about OL decline (Terron Armstead 3rd & David Bahktiari 4th were drafted later). Pugh was healthy for the most part and as far as productivity . . . not gonna do it (he was serviceable), and no 2nd contract.
2014 - Reese drafts C Weston Richburg (2nd rd) who struggled filling in at G in 2014, but was a productive C in 2015 & 2016, then got injured in 2017 and was not resigned. Reese signs Geoff Schwartz to a 4 yr/$16+ million contract. He starts maybe 15 games in 2 years with multiple injuries. Then “ta-ta”
2015 – Reese drafts Ereck Flowers (1st rd) I’m just gonna leave it there . . .
2016 – No significant OL signings/drafting
2017 – Reese draft Adam Bisnowaty (6th rd) active and starts for only one game (week 16) . . . practice squad for remainder of 2017 then waived in May 2018.
Dave Gettlemen replaces Jerry Reese as GM
2018 – Gettlemen’s on a mission!! Signs Nate Solder (4 yrs/62 million), Patrick Omameh (3 yrs/15 million) . . . Solder commentary similar to Flowers, just can’t do it. Omamaeh started first 6 games at guard, hurt his knee, then NY quickly released him. Signed by JAX and started some games for them in late 2018, after that couple years of backup duty for 3 different teams. Cannot remember why they shit-canned him so quickly . . . Gettlemen drafts Will Hernandez (2nd rd) who starts the majority of his 4 years at G . . . definitely had his issues in NY (has played better in Arizona).
2019 – Gettlemen drafts George Asafo-Adjei (7th rd) one year of practice squad I think
2020 – Mr. Hog Molly continues throwing darts. Signs Cameron Fleming (1 yr/3.4 million) starts entire season for Solder (COVID opt-out), then signs with Denver (still there, now on his 2nd contract with them). Gettlemen drafts Andrew Thomas (1st rd) Bullseye! Matt Peart (3rd rd) a bit of a small school project with potential. Has started 7 games in four years with some in game back-up duty. Probably seen the last of him here . . .
2021 – No significant signings/drafting
Joe Schoen replaces Dave Gettlemen as GM (history recent now – eliminating player descriptions)
2022 – Schoen gets down to business: Signs Mark Glowinski (3yrs/18+ million), drafts Evan Neal (1st), Josh Ezeudu (3rd) & Marcus McKethan (6th)
2023 - No significant signings/drafting
No intention of spoiling anyone’s Monday morning coffee with this, but I went down the rabbit hole last night and decided to start typing . . . I also feel the recent FA signings are encouraging, I’m hoping we have turned the corner – it’s time to start hitting the target.
I have much more hope with current OL coach.....who has a reputation of fixing OLs!!!
He might be the best pick up of all the additions.
Not drafting a lineman early that year was a huge mistake, and probably the one that eventually cost Reese his job.
IMHO, when you sign a player who was VG with their last team and that player goes south with the Giants, it is not the player. Especially when they leave and resume playing well.
It can also be the QB calling out the wrong protections.
JMS starts well and gradually fades as the year wears on. Neal never develops. Feliciano goes elsewhere and does fine. Pugh comes from elsewhere and is instantly better than everyone not named Thomas. All of a sudden stunts are being picked up, well for a few weeks until JMS forgets how to do it. Phillips spends about 6 weeks with the Eagles and is shockingly better when he returns vs before he left.
It is likely a combo of mostly oline coaching, some QB protection calls and play selection along with some questionable ability.
There was far too much cross training before players learned their own positions - jacks of all trades and masters of none.
IMHO, Josh Ezeudu should easily be the starting LG and be VG there. Neal should not have dominated the SEC and then be unable to come close to playing just competent RT. Clearly something was wrong with the coaching.
I knew some guys who played with will Beatty. All the talent in the world but a lazy unmotivated guy. Not to mention a pos off the field in his personal life.
+1
The names may change, but the song remains the same.
Also Reese passed on Cordy Glenn for David Wilson and a guy for Oregon wound up a pro bowl C and about a 8-10 year career for Cliff Sintim.
You can arguably say Reese. Ever found one above average OL in FA or draft. Gettleman looks better for Thomas but his FA signings were just as bad. He doesn't get much of a break.
You literally can't slam Gettleman and ignore Reese's total inability to find 1 great OL in 10 years. Not one
Schoen is on the clock. Too early on JMS and Neal better show something this year. You can't blow too 10 picks IMO. I get it isn't easy but they really need Neal and JMS to perform
Also Reese passed on Cordy Glenn for David Wilson and a guy for Oregon wound up a pro bowl C and about a 8-10 year career for Cliff Sintim.
You can arguably say Reese. Ever found one above average OL in FA or draft. Gettleman looks better for Thomas but his FA signings were just as bad. He doesn't get much of a break.
You literally can't slam Gettleman and ignore Reese's total inability to find 1 great OL in 10 years. Not one
Schoen is on the clock. Too early on JMS and Neal better show something this year. You can't blow too 10 picks IMO. I get it isn't easy but they really need Neal and JMS to perform
JMS will be fine. He is the classic case of poor coaching. Guy was playing well before he got injured, but upon his return got worse and worse. Things he was doing well at the start of the year he got bad at. How does that happen? Injury? Rookie wall?
And this summary shows clearly how little OL was really a priority for Reese or DG. Half hearted attempts with no plan behind them.
You miss in your post TC's influence on the OL (draft/FA) when he was hired. This extended to the DL as well.
Very little interest in Reese after he was let go along with his handpicked twice promoted sidekick. Very telling.
Dave then failed miserably in fixing the mess he took over but at least he drafted the first PB/AP OL since 2004.
2012 – Reese drafts Brandon Mosley (4th rd) and Matt McCants (6th rd) neither last long at all
Actually Brewer made quite an impact: his longevity, playing no more than a handful of snaps, is one of a few that led to Banks very publicly calling out Reese for his players on 'scholarship', paid to do nothing. Once, in a rare cameo, Brewer was subbed in for an injury in the shadow of team's goalposts and famously (to me) appeared petrified at the prospect.
Wrong way McCants, who famously (to me) ran in the wrong direction in punt coverage.
section, I hope you're right about JMS: for guy as weight trained as he appeared as a rookie, he needs a good deal more ballast against power NTs and a lot better reads on stunts. I'm confident (??) Bricillo will cure the latter.
fanoftheteam, important catch, as it was Billy Price--that magnificent acquisition, who triggered Gates' excruciating, Seubert-like fracture, on the first series of his 'tenure' here. Am I wrong that Gettleman in effect traded BJ Hill for Price, the same Hill who still plays effectively? What awful stewardship.
One of the things the Giants HAVE to fix is their inability to scout and/or develop OL. The Giants are spending a fortune signing other teams' IOL they drafted in the second half of the draft, while everyone we draft ends up being a JAG or worse.
And this summary shows clearly how little OL was really a priority for Reese or DG. Half hearted attempts with no plan behind them.
How about the trade for Billy Price?
section, I hope you're right about JMS: for guy as weight trained as he appeared as a rookie, he needs a good deal more ballast against power NTs and a lot better reads on stunts. I'm confident (??) Bricillo will cure the latter.
JMS was known to not be a "power" blocker. He is more technique. It was pointed out by Skinner and others he does not anchor well against a bull rush. Neither did Shaun O'Hara....
IMV, he just seemed to lose his technique and failed to recognize defensive schemes, as if he was paralyzed (mentally) more and more as the season went on. Maybe the injury was the cause and he had issues moving.
And this summary shows clearly how little OL was really a priority for Reese or DG. Half hearted attempts with no plan behind them.
I recall that Omameh was solid for Jax but the Giants had him switch sides.
So JMS ability to handle nose tackles should not be a surprise. Likely, the Giants anticipated that 2023 would be a learning year and that he would bulk up during the offseason. Hope that is true. Rookie o-linemen often struggle, especially rookie centers.
a lot of activity but not a lot of achievement as coughlin would say.
the pick instead of david wilson was cordy glenn. he was everyones "top remaining player" in that draft.
The ol' "Everything good is because of 'TC' and everything bad is the fault of that dastardly Jerry Reese!"
Ahhhhh, memories!
Who do you think identified Snee? When was the last time the Giants used a 2nd round pick or higher on a OL in the draft outside LT?
When was the last young big ticket FA signed before McKenzie?
I would include O'Hara. He was young but I don't think his deal was very high priced.
Reese was one of the worst GMs I can ever remember in the NFL but Mara wouldn't get rid of him and his little dog Ross.
DG wasn't much better.
The jury is still out on Schoen but early returns have not been promising.
No wonder a lot of us have lost interest.
you realize accorsi was GM when they acquired all the OL from the sb runs right? through 2004 reese title was pro scout. ohara was signed ahead of 2004 and mackenzie ahead of 2005.
reese obviously deserves credit for scouting the guys they got in the draft (diehl 03, seubert udfa 2001, snee 04) but there's a pretty big difference between being in the org vs the main decision maker.
from 07 on when he became GM they made a lot of poor FA decisions on OL, and when he backfilled himself with Marc Ross to run the drafts they scouted even poorlier. Acorsi had his problems on the OL for much of his tenure too but towards the end, early in coughlins tenure, together they successfully made it a priority with ohara, mackenzie, snee acquisitions.
I think most of would agree the high water mark for the Accorsi era line was 2008. And there's a prevailing myth Reese didn't do enough to transition.
I think the 2012 line throws a bit of a wrench in this story.
PB – 20th, RB – 4th, PEN – 12th
Stud: Though he gets next to no praise, Will Beatty (+22.4) had a year that warranted Pro Bowl consideration. The penalties aren’t ideal, but there are not many left tackles who can keep their quarterback upright and generate movement in the run game.
Dud: It was David Diehl (-6.2) again, but the truth is he actually performed a lot better in the second half of the season compared to the liability we’ve known him to be.
Summary: A big improvement from this line, which was terrible in 2011. They made a big contribution in the running game while ensuring Eli Manning faced significantly less pressure. Still, this line is in transition to a degree with a few of players getting to that age where the cliff is approaching.
By 2012 Reese had replaced 4/5 starters, and the relative age and investment was similar to the 2008 line. What happens next is Locklear, Baas, and Snee abruptly get hurt and essentially never play again after 2012. Beatty gets hurt at the end 2014 and his career is over.
In the 3 drafts that follow the Giants pick a RT/RG, C, and LT in with top 45 picks. I think the story is much different if they can transition off the 2012 line and by 2015 the starters are:
LT Beatty
LG Schwartz
C Richburg
RG Pugh
RT Flowers
Now why the Giants stopped being able to develop lineman circa 2005, I am not inclined to put that on Reese.
The last very good Giants OL was DD, RS, SOH, CS and KM.
The only player added since that OL who was as good or better than anyone from that OL is Andrew Thomas. Horrific.
"2023 - No significant signings/drafting"
We drafted the #1 rated center in the draft.
If you got that wrong, why bother keep reading?
Never heard that before. So basically two good guards can carry you
[quote][/quote]
Did the Giants have a good offensive line in 2012? Yes or no question.
Totally valid . . . I bit off more than I could chew and started to gloss over and was just looking for "OL' or "OT" and missed a few guards and center because of it
Billy Price
Shane Lemieux
JMS
probably a few others . . .
i dont think anyone held a standalone view of accorsi until it became revisionist history post-SB42. 11 months after he retired at the time of the viking game in 2007 most would have bet eli was destined for failure, coughlin was going to be fired, and his legacy was a total blow up job. that was definitely the general consensus. reese's first offseason he had 0 cap room, the only move he made was signing kawika mitchell for the minimum.
the eli trade in particular right up until sb42 was held up as an overpay with merriman being an instant star, ben being successful right away, and then rivers also being successful right away as a starter (in 06 he made the pro bowl his 3rd season, first as starter, which coincidentally was the year accorsi retired). so in year 4 the clear outcome was that EA had paid a big price for the 3rd best QB in that draft. kiwanuka was being shuttled back and forth between LB/DE and Tuck wasnt tuck yet so the whole "you can never have enough pass rushers" thing was another punchline.
when they won the super bowl everyone went up on pedestals together. eli, coughlin, accorsi, reese. my view is that the first 2 were borderline HOFers who did most of the heavy lifting that propped up the latter 2, who both had their moments and were competent, but also highly flawed.
Who do you think identified Snee? When was the last time the Giants used a 2nd round pick or higher on a OL in the draft outside LT?
When was the last young big ticket FA signed before McKenzie?
I would include O'Hara. He was young but I don't think his deal was very high priced.
Well to be fair, Coughlin had pretty good insight into Snee since he was his son-in-law. *grin*
“The first time I met him I was [coaching] with Jacksonville and I went up to Boston College [to scout a running back]," Coughlin said. "Kate was a freshman at BC and I said, ‘Let’s have dinner tonight.’ She said, ‘Dad, can I bring a friend?’ It was Snee. He doesn’t say a word. Not one word that I can remember.”