is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
RE: RE: If you think the franchise guy for the next 15 years
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
So what? You can't run an nfl franchise in fear you'll get it wrong.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
RE: RE: If you think the franchise guy for the next 15 years
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
This type of mindset is just weird to me. If there is a possibility of failure, just don't try.
Schoen and the scouts get paid a lot of money to know what they are doing. They should be trusted to do it.
The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
They won with Jones? Really? Going to use that worn out, strawman argument again?
Just more drivel from the DJFC.
RE: Every one of those scenarios is very palatable
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Probably was being considered until Vikings offered pick 11, 23, a 3rd and a 2025 1st. I think to beat that we would have to add in a 2025 2nd in addition to pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st
RE: Every one of those scenarios is very palatable
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
agreed. There is only one or 2 scenarios on that page that have the giants giving up a future no 1. Why would next years 2 scare “the crap” out of someone. Since when are the giants so good at drafting that there isn’t a 75% chance that whoever they take with that 2025 2nd rounder won’t bust? And any pick in round 3 and on will probably be a jag anyway. People here way over value future draft picks for a team that sucks at drafting. Just take a shot at getting a competent qb when the opportunity presents itself. If the giants draft a WR this year they are going to suck. Again.
The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
You know what's wild? All these teams that messed up with their 2021 QB picks, who gave up and traded them after 3 years (Wilson, Fields, Mac Jones, Trey Lance)?
All those teams - with the exception of the Bears - still had a better record than the Giants did with Jones did from 2021-2023. You talk about 'unknowns,' but what advantage are we carrying with this known quantity we have?
The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
They won with Jones? Really? Going to use that worn out, strawman argument again?
Just more drivel from the DJFC.
He won a playoff game with a bottom 5 roster 14 months ago.
The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
You know what's wild? All these teams that messed up with their 2021 QB picks, who gave up and traded them after 3 years (Wilson, Fields, Mac Jones, Trey Lance)?
All those teams - with the exception of the Bears - still had a better record than the Giants did with Jones did from 2021-2023. You talk about 'unknowns,' but what advantage are we carrying with this known quantity we have?
Did any of them win a playoff game as a starter?
- Wilson horrible/Jets horrible
- Mac Jones made the playoffs as a rookie with the remnants of the Patriots Brady teams, has been horrible since
- Lance simply got hurt and 9ers chose Purdy
- Fields dealt because the Bears have 1st pick
The idea of a trade in the first scares the heck out of you?
I envy you. There are a bunch of things that scare me and they're all a lot more threatening than anything to do with the Giants, the NFL or sports of any kind. I have no fear left to spare on Giants front office decisions.
defended Jones, the fact of the matter is this (and it is undeinable):
The Giants won (in 2022) with Jones, not because of Jones. In fact, I think if Tyrod Taylor had been the Quarterback we may have won the same number of games or maybe we win some we lost and lose some we won but none of those things would be because of the Quarterback himself.
First we have to acknowledge that things lined up for us to win 9 games with a very lucky win over Tennessee (and go back to that game where Jones throws a shitty Int in the red zone that just should not have been thrown), we pulled out a late win with Baltimore because Lamar Jackson couldn't beat a defensive Coordinator who knew him well enough to stop him (and he stopped himself)..
Jones's ability to run, played off Barkley's ability very nicely. Yes, we had some games where Jones was pretty good but in retrospect a lot of our team was pretty good in those games. There was never a WILLED to win by Jones or an overcoming of bad Oline play etc to win. In fact in games where others struggled he was flat out shut down. That is the problem we keep seeing.
This isn't Brock Purdy with a ton of weapons because honestly, I don't see Jones thriving in that same situation as his limitations are still his limitations. Teams figured out if you take his run game away a bit then he will make mistakes, you just have to wait on it.
The next big argument many make (I did it myself for a while) is if you give him a better line he will play better. BUT, that excuse doesn't actually hold water. We saw an uptick in passing production with Taylor and Devito (points scored) and neither of those guys are good to great QB's. But, the fact that they did produce a bit more actually showed just how limiting and limited Jones has been and is.
The game that proved we needed a new QB to me and I think to Daboll and Schoen was the Seattle game. The Giants were home in Primetime and playing a team that had as many injuries on their Oline was we had. In fact, they suffered even more injuries to their line during the game. Deep in Seattle territory, in a game our defense was more than holding int own to this point Jones throws a RZ INT for a TD that killed any and all chance of us staying in the game and possibly winning it. It was a bade bad INT with absolutely no excuse for throwing the ball. Later the Seahawks were heard to say they knew exactly what Jones would do- he was predictable and easily influenced and that killed us. Jones to me was done here at that point.
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Using draft capital to trade up from #6 to get a guy like JJ McCarthy
is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
defended Jones, the fact of the matter is this (and it is undeinable):
The Giants won (in 2022) with Jones, not because of Jones. In fact, I think if Tyrod Taylor had been the Quarterback we may have won the same number of games or maybe we win some we lost and lose some we won but none of those things would be because of the Quarterback himself.
First we have to acknowledge that things lined up for us to win 9 games with a very lucky win over Tennessee (and go back to that game where Jones throws a shitty Int in the red zone that just should not have been thrown), we pulled out a late win with Baltimore because Lamar Jackson couldn't beat a defensive Coordinator who knew him well enough to stop him (and he stopped himself)..
Jones's ability to run, played off Barkley's ability very nicely. Yes, we had some games where Jones was pretty good but in retrospect a lot of our team was pretty good in those games. There was never a WILLED to win by Jones or an overcoming of bad Oline play etc to win. In fact in games where others struggled he was flat out shut down. That is the problem we keep seeing.
This isn't Brock Purdy with a ton of weapons because honestly, I don't see Jones thriving in that same situation as his limitations are still his limitations. Teams figured out if you take his run game away a bit then he will make mistakes, you just have to wait on it.
The next big argument many make (I did it myself for a while) is if you give him a better line he will play better. BUT, that excuse doesn't actually hold water. We saw an uptick in passing production with Taylor and Devito (points scored) and neither of those guys are good to great QB's. But, the fact that they did produce a bit more actually showed just how limiting and limited Jones has been and is.
The game that proved we needed a new QB to me and I think to Daboll and Schoen was the Seattle game. The Giants were home in Primetime and playing a team that had as many injuries on their Oline was we had. In fact, they suffered even more injuries to their line during the game. Deep in Seattle territory, in a game our defense was more than holding int own to this point Jones throws a RZ INT for a TD that killed any and all chance of us staying in the game and possibly winning it. It was a bade bad INT with absolutely no excuse for throwing the ball. Later the Seahawks were heard to say they knew exactly what Jones would do- he was predictable and easily influenced and that killed us. Jones to me was done here at that point.
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
Agreed and well said.
RE: RE: Using draft capital to trade up from #6 to get a guy like JJ McCarthy
is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
RE: RE: RE: Using draft capital to trade up from #6 to get a guy like JJ McCarthy
is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
JJM is polarizing here, some see promise while others see a career backup. The conversations get heated. I agree with you on letting the chips fall to you if the Vikings trade up to 3 as I predict, a trade up to 5 would be fine for a future 3rd imo. Where it gets tricky is if the Pats stay and take a QB. Then of Schoen likes the QB left he will start sweating. In that situation I would try to have deals in place to move up one spot with the Chargers and then move up one spot with the Cardinals (future 3rd to Chargers, current 3rd to Cardinals). Cardinals get their guy in MHJ, Chargers get their guy in Odunze or whoever and we get the qb we want for pick 6, our 3rd and a future 3rd. The Vikings are left with Pennix or Nix or whatever they wanna do.
RE: If you think the franchise guy for the next 15 years
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Probably was being considered until Vikings offered pick 11, 23, a 3rd and a 2025 1st. I think to beat that we would have to add in a 2025 2nd in addition to pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st
Then you add it. It'd be a better deal for the Pats because they are in desperate need of a QB too, which is clear as day.
JJM is polarizing mostly because of his supporters on the site
are annoying and from my viewpoint make excuses for him that seem to be very much like those who do it for Daniel Jones.
I just wrote this on another thread but I am very wary of giving Schoen extra draft collateral to move up for a certain QB. They screwed up the evaluation on Jones and lost enough confidence from me that Schoen may just have to live within his means. I don’t mind GMs taking levels of risks but the DJ decision was just eye-rolling.
RE: RE: RE: Using draft capital to trade up from #6 to get a guy like JJ McCarthy
is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Exactly. No reason whatsoever to make a deal now. It can only be made once they're on the clock. It's in their best interest to allow a bidding war to ensue in such a case.
says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Exactly. No reason whatsoever to make a deal now. It can only be made once they're on the clock. It's in their best interest to allow a bidding war to ensue in such a case.
The game that proved we needed a new QB to me and I think to Daboll and Schoen was the Seattle game. The Giants were home in Primetime and playing a team that had as many injuries on their Oline was we had. In fact, they suffered even more injuries to their line during the game. Deep in Seattle territory, in a game our defense was more than holding int own to this point Jones throws a RZ INT for a TD that killed any and all chance of us staying in the game and possibly winning it. It was a bade bad INT with absolutely no excuse for throwing the ball. Later the Seahawks were heard to say they knew exactly what Jones would do- he was predictable and easily influenced and that killed us. Jones to me was done here at that point.
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
totally agree about that Seattle pick. It’s when I threw in the towel on Jones and realized he is not the guy. And to add to your other point, I know AT got hurt in 1 game but the line was not decimated at that point and the cowboys punched the giants in the mouth that game. They were never going to be good last year.
RE: RE: RE: If you think the franchise guy for the next 15 years
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
You don't know that, but if they have a conviction, then do it and get him (Maye). That would be the max though.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If you think the franchise guy for the next 15 years
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
You don't know that, but if they have a conviction, then do it and get him (Maye). That would be the max though.
I just presume the Vikings offer would be pick 11, 23, a 3rd and future 1st. That's about the best the Vikings can do which I think they seem trigger happy and ready for that. So, we would have to add the 2025 2nd in addition to what you mentioned to beat that, even maybe the 3rd too. Pats are setup to get a real king's ransom imo. If Jayden Daniels isn't there they would be stupid to pass it up. Both the Vikings pick and ours could easily be very high, especially the Vikings with their defense minus Hunter and Darnold/rookie qb, could be top 5 easily imo.
The Giants are NOT in great shape to move up this year. They still have too many roster holes and not enough draft picks to gut the 2024 draft.
I'm not saying don't enquire and explore it (IF they love a guy). Doesn't mean they couldn't do it, but as we all know, if they get it wrong, it's another 5 years.
They've already paid Jones to play next year. To me, it seems more prudent to take a stud WR -- which they could desperately use regardless of who's QB. Then use the rest of your 2024 pics to improve the roster.
Besides. Why does everyone assume the Pats will trade the pick? On paper, they need a QB more than the Giants do. And it's not Belichick in charge anymore.
The Giants are NOT in great shape to move up this year. They still have too many roster holes and not enough draft picks to gut the 2024 draft.
I'm not saying don't enquire and explore it (IF they love a guy). Doesn't mean they couldn't do it, but as we all know, if they get it wrong, it's another 5 years.
They've already paid Jones to play next year. To me, it seems more prudent to take a stud WR -- which they could desperately use regardless of who's QB. Then use the rest of your 2024 pics to improve the roster.
Besides. Why does everyone assume the Pats will trade the pick? On paper, they need a QB more than the Giants do. And it's not Belichick in charge anymore.
Jones being under contract should have no bearing, his time here is short.
... Because professional coaches scouts and those that we respect on this board believe that he is a pro quarterback.
Add to that he is most likely the best quarterback that would be available to the Giants.
What I do think is they might be considering moving up to where the Giants are at depending on how the first few picks shake out.
So in a trade down scenario, Minny might be our partner.
[quote] to jump that high. I don't think they are willing to pay the price to go that high.
What I do think is they might be considering moving up to where the Giants are at depending on how the first few picks shake out.
So in a trade down scenario, Minny might be our partner. [/quote
Pick 11, 23 2025 1st and a 3rd. I think Kwesi n Co are in full bloom love to give the Pats a true King's ransom.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
Quote:
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
So what? You can't run an nfl franchise in fear you'll get it wrong.
Quote:
is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
"Think"
Problem is that even the best talent evaluators are wrong at least half the time with top QBs.
Remember: Chicago is at the #1 overall pick this year via a trade. Carolina had DJ Moore, this year's #1 overall and the 9th and 61st selection last year. All that was given away for Bryce Young.
So Carolina has Bryce Young, when they could have had Caleb Williams, DJ Moore, Jalen Carter and another late second round talent.
You don't want to be Carolina.
This type of mindset is just weird to me. If there is a possibility of failure, just don't try.
Schoen and the scouts get paid a lot of money to know what they are doing. They should be trusted to do it.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
They won with Jones? Really? Going to use that worn out, strawman argument again?
Just more drivel from the DJFC.
Yup. No deal there I’d say no to if one of their guys are there
.52 points ??? Really ???
IMHO, it makes it a lot harder to read to have these very rough estimates quoted to 5 significant figures. How about calling it 660 points?
Off my soap box.
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says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Probably was being considered until Vikings offered pick 11, 23, a 3rd and a 2025 1st. I think to beat that we would have to add in a 2025 2nd in addition to pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st
Would you do it if you had to trade pick 6, 47, and a 2025 1st+2nd for Maye or JJM knowing you could get the one that fell for much less?
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
You know what's wild? All these teams that messed up with their 2021 QB picks, who gave up and traded them after 3 years (Wilson, Fields, Mac Jones, Trey Lance)?
All those teams - with the exception of the Bears - still had a better record than the Giants did with Jones did from 2021-2023. You talk about 'unknowns,' but what advantage are we carrying with this known quantity we have?
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The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
They won with Jones? Really? Going to use that worn out, strawman argument again?
Just more drivel from the DJFC.
He won a playoff game with a bottom 5 roster 14 months ago.
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The same people that have non-stopped cried for 5 years about reaching for Daniel Jones at 6 want to give up future 1s and 2s to move up to take the 4th QB on the board.
I've heard this cop out a million times - "if the QB is your guy, then trading whatever picks shouldn't matter". Well Daniel Jones was our guy 5 years ago and was taken 6th overall. No one would have batted an eye if we got him at pick 17. Yet in the end it all worked out because Dex is a better player than Jags Josh Allen.
The desperation of this fan base to run to the unknown is so sad. We won with Jones 2 years ago with the same garbage roster we had last year. In 2023, they all got hurt. He got murdered for weeks and never threw any of those bums under the bus. He's not perfect, hes not a QB that can win on his own. Those QBs come once a decade, but there isn't an offensive roster in the NFL that has been as bad as the Giants has been since Jones came into the league, not counting all of the coaching changes. No rookie is coming into the situation he came into and succeeding.
You know what's wild? All these teams that messed up with their 2021 QB picks, who gave up and traded them after 3 years (Wilson, Fields, Mac Jones, Trey Lance)?
All those teams - with the exception of the Bears - still had a better record than the Giants did with Jones did from 2021-2023. You talk about 'unknowns,' but what advantage are we carrying with this known quantity we have?
Did any of them win a playoff game as a starter?
- Wilson horrible/Jets horrible
- Mac Jones made the playoffs as a rookie with the remnants of the Patriots Brady teams, has been horrible since
- Lance simply got hurt and 9ers chose Purdy
- Fields dealt because the Bears have 1st pick
They won with Jones? Really? Going to use that worn out, strawman argument again?
Just more drivel from the DJFC.
He won a playoff game with a bottom 5 roster 14 months ago.
When can we evoke the Statute of Limitations on bringing up this game...any time soon?
The Giants won (in 2022) with Jones, not because of Jones. In fact, I think if Tyrod Taylor had been the Quarterback we may have won the same number of games or maybe we win some we lost and lose some we won but none of those things would be because of the Quarterback himself.
First we have to acknowledge that things lined up for us to win 9 games with a very lucky win over Tennessee (and go back to that game where Jones throws a shitty Int in the red zone that just should not have been thrown), we pulled out a late win with Baltimore because Lamar Jackson couldn't beat a defensive Coordinator who knew him well enough to stop him (and he stopped himself)..
Jones's ability to run, played off Barkley's ability very nicely. Yes, we had some games where Jones was pretty good but in retrospect a lot of our team was pretty good in those games. There was never a WILLED to win by Jones or an overcoming of bad Oline play etc to win. In fact in games where others struggled he was flat out shut down. That is the problem we keep seeing.
This isn't Brock Purdy with a ton of weapons because honestly, I don't see Jones thriving in that same situation as his limitations are still his limitations. Teams figured out if you take his run game away a bit then he will make mistakes, you just have to wait on it.
The next big argument many make (I did it myself for a while) is if you give him a better line he will play better. BUT, that excuse doesn't actually hold water. We saw an uptick in passing production with Taylor and Devito (points scored) and neither of those guys are good to great QB's. But, the fact that they did produce a bit more actually showed just how limiting and limited Jones has been and is.
The game that proved we needed a new QB to me and I think to Daboll and Schoen was the Seattle game. The Giants were home in Primetime and playing a team that had as many injuries on their Oline was we had. In fact, they suffered even more injuries to their line during the game. Deep in Seattle territory, in a game our defense was more than holding int own to this point Jones throws a RZ INT for a TD that killed any and all chance of us staying in the game and possibly winning it. It was a bade bad INT with absolutely no excuse for throwing the ball. Later the Seahawks were heard to say they knew exactly what Jones would do- he was predictable and easily influenced and that killed us. Jones to me was done here at that point.
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
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says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
The Giants won (in 2022) with Jones, not because of Jones. In fact, I think if Tyrod Taylor had been the Quarterback we may have won the same number of games or maybe we win some we lost and lose some we won but none of those things would be because of the Quarterback himself.
First we have to acknowledge that things lined up for us to win 9 games with a very lucky win over Tennessee (and go back to that game where Jones throws a shitty Int in the red zone that just should not have been thrown), we pulled out a late win with Baltimore because Lamar Jackson couldn't beat a defensive Coordinator who knew him well enough to stop him (and he stopped himself)..
Jones's ability to run, played off Barkley's ability very nicely. Yes, we had some games where Jones was pretty good but in retrospect a lot of our team was pretty good in those games. There was never a WILLED to win by Jones or an overcoming of bad Oline play etc to win. In fact in games where others struggled he was flat out shut down. That is the problem we keep seeing.
This isn't Brock Purdy with a ton of weapons because honestly, I don't see Jones thriving in that same situation as his limitations are still his limitations. Teams figured out if you take his run game away a bit then he will make mistakes, you just have to wait on it.
The next big argument many make (I did it myself for a while) is if you give him a better line he will play better. BUT, that excuse doesn't actually hold water. We saw an uptick in passing production with Taylor and Devito (points scored) and neither of those guys are good to great QB's. But, the fact that they did produce a bit more actually showed just how limiting and limited Jones has been and is.
The game that proved we needed a new QB to me and I think to Daboll and Schoen was the Seattle game. The Giants were home in Primetime and playing a team that had as many injuries on their Oline was we had. In fact, they suffered even more injuries to their line during the game. Deep in Seattle territory, in a game our defense was more than holding int own to this point Jones throws a RZ INT for a TD that killed any and all chance of us staying in the game and possibly winning it. It was a bade bad INT with absolutely no excuse for throwing the ball. Later the Seahawks were heard to say they knew exactly what Jones would do- he was predictable and easily influenced and that killed us. Jones to me was done here at that point.
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
Agreed and well said.
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is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
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In comment 16437866 nygiantfan said:
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is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
JJM is polarizing here, some see promise while others see a career backup. The conversations get heated. I agree with you on letting the chips fall to you if the Vikings trade up to 3 as I predict, a trade up to 5 would be fine for a future 3rd imo. Where it gets tricky is if the Pats stay and take a QB. Then of Schoen likes the QB left he will start sweating. In that situation I would try to have deals in place to move up one spot with the Chargers and then move up one spot with the Cardinals (future 3rd to Chargers, current 3rd to Cardinals). Cardinals get their guy in MHJ, Chargers get their guy in Odunze or whoever and we get the qb we want for pick 6, our 3rd and a future 3rd. The Vikings are left with Pennix or Nix or whatever they wanna do.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
Ding, ding, ding!! This is spot on
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is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
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In comment 16437741 AcidTest said:
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says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Probably was being considered until Vikings offered pick 11, 23, a 3rd and a 2025 1st. I think to beat that we would have to add in a 2025 2nd in addition to pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st
Then you add it. It'd be a better deal for the Pats because they are in desperate need of a QB too, which is clear as day.
I just wrote this on another thread but I am very wary of giving Schoen extra draft collateral to move up for a certain QB. They screwed up the evaluation on Jones and lost enough confidence from me that Schoen may just have to live within his means. I don’t mind GMs taking levels of risks but the DJ decision was just eye-rolling.
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In comment 16437866 nygiantfan said:
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is pure desperation along the same lines as using a #6 pick on Daniel Jones. Pretty ironic actually.
Well this massive tradeup would be for Maye or McCarthy actually. It would be ironic with all the hate JJM gets on here if the Vikings traded pick 11, 23, a 3rd rounder and 2025 1st for JJM and he ended up elite while we got Maye and he busted. I'd be happy with Maye at 5 or 6 though.
McCarthy gets hate on here? He is more loved than Eli ever was and JJ isn’t even a Ny Giant.
And if we still were happy taking Maye without all the tradeup extras and he busts, then he busts and you move on. That is the risk of any player and that isn’t ironic at all.
Christ.
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In comment 16437741 AcidTest said:
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says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Exactly. No reason whatsoever to make a deal now. It can only be made once they're on the clock. It's in their best interest to allow a bidding war to ensue in such a case.
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In comment 16437755 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16437741 AcidTest said:
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says that if the Giants offered #6, #47, and our #1 next year that the Patriots would take that deal and pass on a QB even if there was one available at #3 that they like. My guess is that Schoen already offered that deal to the Patriots and it was rejected.
Or that it's being considered, but is contingent on NE's guy not being there at 3.
Agreed. The Patriots even though I believe will stay put at 3, are in a better position to accept or reject an offer AFTER they have privately worked out all the QBs they are interested in AND once the draft begins seeing where Washington goes with their pick.
Exactly. No reason whatsoever to make a deal now. It can only be made once they're on the clock. It's in their best interest to allow a bidding war to ensue in such a case.
100%
Some will argue this next point and say it can go both ways, and that is true, but in reality it is 100% as I am about to say:
The 2023 Giants could have easily been 9-8 (very much like 2022) if our Oline wasn't decimated and Jones played even a tiny bit better.. BUT, they could have been 9-8 if Taylor didn't get hurt against the Jets or if Waller doesn't get interfered with against the Bills etc.. What that tells me is that Daboll can coach and scheme wins with even a MODEST showing at QB. The problem is without EVERYTHING else working to a T then Daniel Jones will never be a modest positive QB..
We need our own guy, a guy who may (or may not) be the GUY with the IT factor but we know for sure that guy is NOT Daniel Jones.
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In comment 16437687 GiantTuff1 said:
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is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
You don't know that, but if they have a conviction, then do it and get him (Maye). That would be the max though.
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In comment 16437958 Optimus-NY said:
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In comment 16437687 GiantTuff1 said:
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is there to be had, none of that compensation is scary to me.
Exactly. I'd easily add next year's third rounder to go along with next year's 1st rounder and this year's remaining 2nd rounder to make a deal up to 3 to pick Maye (assuming he's Schoen's and Dabes's guy above all others besides Caleb).
I think it would have to be next years 2nd not 3rd to beat the Vikings.
You don't know that, but if they have a conviction, then do it and get him (Maye). That would be the max though.
I just presume the Vikings offer would be pick 11, 23, a 3rd and future 1st. That's about the best the Vikings can do which I think they seem trigger happy and ready for that. So, we would have to add the 2025 2nd in addition to what you mentioned to beat that, even maybe the 3rd too. Pats are setup to get a real king's ransom imo. If Jayden Daniels isn't there they would be stupid to pass it up. Both the Vikings pick and ours could easily be very high, especially the Vikings with their defense minus Hunter and Darnold/rookie qb, could be top 5 easily imo.
I'm not saying don't enquire and explore it (IF they love a guy). Doesn't mean they couldn't do it, but as we all know, if they get it wrong, it's another 5 years.
They've already paid Jones to play next year. To me, it seems more prudent to take a stud WR -- which they could desperately use regardless of who's QB. Then use the rest of your 2024 pics to improve the roster.
Besides. Why does everyone assume the Pats will trade the pick? On paper, they need a QB more than the Giants do. And it's not Belichick in charge anymore.
I'm not saying don't enquire and explore it (IF they love a guy). Doesn't mean they couldn't do it, but as we all know, if they get it wrong, it's another 5 years.
They've already paid Jones to play next year. To me, it seems more prudent to take a stud WR -- which they could desperately use regardless of who's QB. Then use the rest of your 2024 pics to improve the roster.
Besides. Why does everyone assume the Pats will trade the pick? On paper, they need a QB more than the Giants do. And it's not Belichick in charge anymore.
Jones being under contract should have no bearing, his time here is short.
Add to that he is most likely the best quarterback that would be available to the Giants.