Picking up from the free agency thread, thought this deserved it's own discussion.
If Jones is cut before the year brgins, the Giants will have paid him the full guarantees from 2023 and 2024, totalling 82M.
If the dance ends now, Jones will have played in 6 games, with a 1-5 record. With a per game rate of ~14M and a per win rate of 82M.
All things considered, I can't think of a worse result. Anything else compare?
point being, basing contract value on non availability due to injury is a fool's errand.
Then if the plan is to not play him, why not cut him and see if he can sign on with another team once he is released to play?
I can't see the Giants organization keeping him buried on the bench all season when he might be healthy enough to play.
Get over it already. Schoen and Daboll screwed that up and will screw up when drafting another QB in the end. I don't trust those 2 at all.
Welcome to QB Hell.
This will be the first decade that we do not win a Super Bowl.
Golloday?
Aaron Rodgers (Jets) so far?
I agree 100% For some reason when I think of the worst contract, I think of Jamarcus Russell
As always I am happy to be corrected if I got a number wrong. Something about the Wilson numbers seem to be quite upsetting to a few BBIers, so if I've made a mistake, please let me know.
* 2010 was an uncapped year, so I penciled in the 2009 number for the sake of math
I haven't included Watson and Rodgers, because those players are not at risk of being cut this year. Their contracts are not projected to be over, so they still have time to improve their ratios. That said, those two deals definitely project to be very bad, and could ultimately be the worst.
Keep in mind, I'm not debating worst trade. And I'm not debating worst sticker price. I'm just focusing on payments for services rendered.
If Jones is ultimately cut, I believe the headline will be: He earned 82M, won one game, which included one half of good football.
Get over it already. Schoen and Daboll screwed that up and will screw up when drafting another QB in the end. I don't trust those 2 at all.
Welcome to QB Hell.
This will be the first decade that we do not win a Super Bowl.
We won one in the 60s? 70s?
If Jones is ultimately cut, I believe the headline will be: He earned 82M, won one game, which included one half of good football.
That is quite the sobering sentence....
Fantastic player. A huge piece of shit; I recall trying to stomp on another player's head when his helmet is off, remember.
Then went to DC for less money than what Tampa Bay offered for the media and larger fan base.
Quitting on his teammates and getting into fights with his head coach. That's why it's by far the worst contracts for a given player.
Deshaun Watson is up there too with all the rape, questionable work ethic, and guaranteed money on its entirety.
What it costs to acquire a player is certainly a factor in judging whether it worked out -- and that's an interesting but slightly different bent on the topic.
So Russell cost a first round pick + the money, that's a total loser. Wilson cost multiple picks + the money, that's a total loser.
I'm simply looking at the ROI for the money spent.
In 3 years will Watson be worse, probably.
If Jones is cut and doesn't play for the Giants this year, they will have paid him the full 82M, which incudes his signing bonus and 2023 and 2024 salaries.
in 2020 he extended for 4 years 128m, 108m guaranteed and 66.5m fully guaranteed at signing.
only big difference is that he didnt tear his ACL in year 1 so Philly was able to trade him to the Colts, who then traded him to Washington a year later.
the eagles paid him $40m in year 1 before the trade though.
if jones came back and played like he did in 2022 this year even if only for a couple months before a rookie took over and stayed healthy, i think there would be a similar outcome. his problem has obviously been the injuries, though wentz tore his ACL and had some injuries himself.
QBs get paid. Even the average ones.
Obsessed.
This whole episode is actually a business as usual episode in the NFL where most, if not all teams, deal with torn ACLs in the normal course of business. If you can honestly believe that JS did not consider it, unless you are a moron, you must support his immediate termination.
Carry on. Don't let me stop woe is NYG party. Don't even respond.
This whole episode is actually a business as usual episode in the NFL where most, if not all teams, deal with torn ACLs in the normal course of business. If you can honestly believe that JS did not consider it, unless you are a moron, you must support his immediate termination.
I have almost no idea what any of that means. But there purpose of this thread is measuring outcomes not input.
Jones would need to play a lot of games next year to get that ratio close.
Although the methodology gets a little wonky, depending on when Jones is cut or retires and the injury guarantee.
Jones would need to play a lot of games next year to get that ratio close.
The numbers for Wentz, Wilson, and Haynesworth are lower than they should be. You are not counting for cap hits to release them early whereas Jones's number factors that in.
Those are the cash numbers paid to the player by the team that entered the agreement. That cash number reflects the total cap liability insured. Can you give me an example of what you think is wrong?
I said on a different thread that if he is not on the roster it is like a one year deal for 5.25 games because you are not getting anymore ROI.
If it works out that he is medically cleared and the Giants stick with him then still a TBD on this contract and its real impact.
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The numbers for Wentz, Wilson, and Haynesworth are lower than they should be. You are not counting for cap hits to release them early whereas Jones's number factors that in.
Those are the cash numbers paid to the player by the team that entered the agreement. That cash number reflects the total cap liability insured. Can you give me an example of what you think is wrong?
The Wilson contract $165,000,000 was guaranteed. All of that is due regardless of it is paid or not so far.
It could be like a lot of things, but in the real world of facts, the minimum guarantees in the agreement pay Jones the full total of his 2023 and 2024 salaries. In every lens in the universe, it's at a minimum a 2-year deal.
But if it makes you feel better, yes the Giants got 6 games for between 82-105M.
the d in djm stand for dramatics
OTC & Spotrac haven't updated the cash paid portion for 2024 because Denver it appears is still trying to sort out the remaining options bonus and if he will be a June 1 cut or not. The 85M cash number doesn't include one final chunk of accounting.
Based on some back of the envelope math I *think* the full cash paid to Wilson when all is said and done will be 124M.
OTC & Spotrac haven't updated the cash paid portion for 2024 because Denver it appears is still trying to sort out the remaining options bonus and if he will be a June 1 cut or not. The 85M cash number doesn't include one final chunk of accounting.
Based on some back of the envelope math I *think* the full cash paid to Wilson when all is said and done will be 124M.
But let's be clear. The Broncos made an emotional decision to cut bait. Wilson was a very productive quarterback last year, albeit not elite. But if he were to simply match his performance going forward, this contract would not be nearly as bad as the self-inflicted choice to get rid of him and endow the Steelers with an essentially free resource. And the Broncos are about to realize that replacing Wilson will not be the no brainer choice they seem to think they are making. I would be surprised if their quarterback production in 2024 is as good as Wilson's production was in 2023.
But my original point remains the same for me -- if Jones doesn't play another down for the Giants they will have either paid 82M or 105M for one good half of football.
That's a real bad investment.
But my original point remains the same for me -- if Jones doesn't play another down for the Giants they will have either paid 82M or 105M for one good half of football.
That's a real bad investment.
Totally agree. Real bad investment, yes, but not the worst in NFL history
The decision to make DJ the sixth highest paid player in the NFL this year, a guy who has won precisely five games in five years against winning teams, with a fairly chronic injury history, at a time when the franchise has been in the middle of a rebuild, is the most egregious display of managerial ineptitude in the history of the New York Giants.
And most likely, in the history of professional sports. There is really nothing that even comes close to comparing to it. Ellsbury? He was an elite player and two time World Series champion with the Red Sox, with one of the most productive years in recent baseball history in 2011, who fell off after a very good first year with the Yankees. Like Rodgers and Wilson, his body of work EARNED him the contract he got. No doubt a dumb contract in hindsight but a contract commensurate with his body of work at the time it was awarded. Same with Haynesworth. Two time ALL PRO player and Defensive Player of the Year in 2008 who again EARNED the contract he was given.
Inconvenient facts, not opinions.
So disingenuous. Why would we cherry pick one year in a contract where he's paid more money so to manage the cap better in other years?
Nobody looks at contracts this way. He got $40M AAV, it's tied for 10th in the NFL for QBs with 2 other guys. FFS Baker Mayfield just got $33M AAV and he's been a journeyman before finally putting together a 2022 Daniel Jones-esque season this year.
The contract wasn't great, but here's your alternative...Jacoby Brissett or someone of that caliber as a bridge to 2024 where you draft a guy. Coming off a playoff win season, does anyone think that Mara would allow a punt like that? He has tickets to sell. Do you pay Carr for more years?
The contract isn't worst in history because of the 2-year escape hatch and the outlay was a little more than what an average starter is getting. Competent QBs with bad playoff track records are getting paid huge dollars now. It's the current landscape. Carr got paid, Cousins just got paid $45M AAV.
The obsession with this contract is silly, and I'm no fan of DJ. I was ridiculed on this board for still being a doubter of DJ's ability even right after the Vikings playoff win. The best thing for the franchise would've been to let him hit free agency, but he likely would've been paid a similar deal. Look what Atlanta just gave Cousins. But do you think Schoen could come off that playoff year holding the bad looking for a backup caliber QB to be the starter for a season to serve as a bridge and be able to walk into John Mara's office and sell that? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.
That man was a full believer in DJ after that Vikings win. Schoen reads the papers, too.
I said it then and it bears repeatedly...that contract did nothing to jeopardize drafting a rookie QB this year and hitting the reset button, so it didn't jeopardize any long-term QB change plan from the Giants' side.
And finally, if you have to qualify it as "if DJ gets cut" you've already undermined the question of "is it the worst contract in NFL history?" It either is or it isn't on its face. Doesn't matter if he's cut. The fact that he can be cut in a short window means it's not.
It was a bet...may a long-shot bet, maybe a poor gamble, and ultimately, one that Schoen missed on, but the damage done is negligible, and he protected the future of the franchise in that regard.
So all of that considered, it can't even be remotely described as anything close to being the worst contract in NFL history.
You have probably the worst working knowledge of the salary cap and contract dynamics on this board, and yet you have continued with this sort of shit for years.
Any QB that doesn't make you a annual Super Bowl contender has no significant return on investment. Injuries happen and focusing on them is an utter waste of time.
Mayfields 2023 season was much better than Jones 2022 season. And you can criticize Carr and Cousins for their faults but they are a clear level above Jones to put it lightly.
It is highly unlikely Jones was getting this contract on the open market. The evidence just isn’t there and the league does not view Jones as highly as the Giants do.
Schoen was a first year GM that clearly felt the pressure from ownership to retain Jones. There were better ways to do that but it’s obvious Mara’s influence hurt his decision making.
He should have been ruthless and either tagged him or let him test the market. He made a big mistake, now he has to fix it. But people downplaying it are being foolish.
Mayfields 2023 season was much better than Jones 2022 season. And you can criticize Carr and Cousins for their faults but they are a clear level above Jones to put it lightly.
It is highly unlikely Jones was getting this contract on the open market. The evidence just isn’t there and the league does not view Jones as highly as the Giants do.
Schoen was a first year GM that clearly felt the pressure from ownership to retain Jones. There were better ways to do that but it’s obvious Mara’s influence hurt his decision making.
He should have been ruthless and either tagged him or let him test the market. He made a big mistake, now he has to fix it. But people downplaying it are being foolish.
My point is, any QB you sign that doesn't put you in the hunt for a Super Bowl is spinning your wheels. The contract DJ received was a short-term one gambling that he could take another step forward to become that.
I don't need to split hairs on the other QBs. Situations/circumstances differ, but none of those guys are very likely to put those teams in contention to hoist a Lombardi.
Cousins might be the exception because that is a GREAT situation for him. Strong playmakers, great OL. But if they get the bad side of the coin for injury luck, it won't happen. Yes, you could say that about all QBs save for a few in the NFL.
So strategically, if you don't have one, you need to try to draft one until you do. I like what Denver did. They are taking short-term pain... they will be terrible in 2024, but should be positioned well to get a premium QB prospect in the 2025 draft.
So in terms of evaluating a contract from an ROI perspective, what does it matter from the fan perspective if my terrible QB wins 1 or 2 games versus a QB that wins 6 games? What difference does that ROI make if I have a QB that is one and one in the playoffs for 5 years in a row? From a fan perspective, all this ROI is the same to me, disappointment.
At least if my team is terrible, I can be positioned to draft an elite QB prospect (hopefully one in the draft available).
Being that DJ's contract had an early escape hatch, and gave the flexibility to pivot to drafting an elite QB prospect, it can't be the worst in history. The worst is sticking with a guy year over year that will never get you to the mountain top...I think Cousins in Minnesota is a good example of this.
As a leader you have to make good well reasoned bets that make sense risk / reward wise. The fact that Jones was overpaid exacerbated the risks over potential rewards it would have been too big of a risk vs the chance of upside even on a more reasonable deal. That deal was just a bad one from the moment it was signed.
Acting like it was just unlucky was intellectually dishonest. Now was their some and luck in addition to the ill conceived idea. Yes, similarly to not say that would be dishonest. But the idea itself was always a bad one weighed down by the same BS sentimentality and cronyism that has dragged us to the basement as a franchise.
It's misleading to celebrate that you can exit the contract after two years, without also measuring the cost. Yes, the Giants can exit after two years, at a cost of 82M dollars cash (105M if he has a career altering injury).
Teams simply don't hang on to bad contracts after two years. Those players are either traded or cut. And the original team is left with some amount of dollars paid for some amount of services rendered.
This thread has availed two other really poor deals where the dollars paid vs. the services rendered are in the neighborhood of Jones -- Haynesworth and Wilson.
Ultimately will Watson and/or Rodgers be in or eclipse those poor ratios? Seems very probable.
And just some subtext, I am not asking "who has made the worst decisions with their quarterback over a period of time?" The question is about the commercial agreement.
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The Rodgers, Watson and Wilson contracts may be larger financial hits, but all three of them were given to perennial pro bowl players and, in the case of Rodgers and Wilson, to two future HoFers. Overpayments for sure, but well EARNED at the time the contracts were awarded based on their collective bodies of work. And all three are still very much works in progress. My guess is that all three, barring injury, will have outstanding years in 2024.
The decision to make DJ the sixth highest paid player in the NFL this year, a guy who has won precisely five games in five years against winning teams, with a fairly chronic injury history, at a time when the franchise has been in the middle of a rebuild, is the most egregious display of managerial ineptitude in the history of the New York Giants.
And most likely, in the history of professional sports. There is really nothing that even comes close to comparing to it. Ellsbury? He was an elite player and two time World Series champion with the Red Sox, with one of the most productive years in recent baseball history in 2011, who fell off after a very good first year with the Yankees. Like Rodgers and Wilson, his body of work EARNED him the contract he got. No doubt a dumb contract in hindsight but a contract commensurate with his body of work at the time it was awarded. Same with Haynesworth. Two time ALL PRO player and Defensive Player of the Year in 2008 who again EARNED the contract he was given.
Inconvenient facts, not opinions.
So disingenuous. Why would we cherry pick one year in a contract where he's paid more money so to manage the cap better in other years?
Nobody looks at contracts this way. He got $40M AAV, it's tied for 10th in the NFL for QBs with 2 other guys. FFS Baker Mayfield just got $33M AAV and he's been a journeyman before finally putting together a 2022 Daniel Jones-esque season this year.
The contract wasn't great, but here's your alternative...Jacoby Brissett or someone of that caliber as a bridge to 2024 where you draft a guy. Coming off a playoff win season, does anyone think that Mara would allow a punt like that? He has tickets to sell. Do you pay Carr for more years?
The contract isn't worst in history because of the 2-year escape hatch and the outlay was a little more than what an average starter is getting. Competent QBs with bad playoff track records are getting paid huge dollars now. It's the current landscape. Carr got paid, Cousins just got paid $45M AAV.
The obsession with this contract is silly, and I'm no fan of DJ. I was ridiculed on this board for still being a doubter of DJ's ability even right after the Vikings playoff win. The best thing for the franchise would've been to let him hit free agency, but he likely would've been paid a similar deal. Look what Atlanta just gave Cousins. But do you think Schoen could come off that playoff year holding the bad looking for a backup caliber QB to be the starter for a season to serve as a bridge and be able to walk into John Mara's office and sell that? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.
That man was a full believer in DJ after that Vikings win. Schoen reads the papers, too.
I said it then and it bears repeatedly...that contract did nothing to jeopardize drafting a rookie QB this year and hitting the reset button, so it didn't jeopardize any long-term QB change plan from the Giants' side.
And finally, if you have to qualify it as "if DJ gets cut" you've already undermined the question of "is it the worst contract in NFL history?" It either is or it isn't on its face. Doesn't matter if he's cut. The fact that he can be cut in a short window means it's not.
It was a bet...may a long-shot bet, maybe a poor gamble, and ultimately, one that Schoen missed on, but the damage done is negligible, and he protected the future of the franchise in that regard.
So all of that considered, it can't even be remotely described as anything close to being the worst contract in NFL history.
Russell Wilson Contract Details, Salary ...
Russell Wilson signed a five year contract extension worth $245 million with the Broncos. $165 million is guaranteed including $124 million at signing.
Broncos will have paid Wilson $62M a year for 2 years work, while Giants will pay Jones $41M a year for 2 years work.
Simple.
Broncos will have paid Wilson $62M a year for 2 years work, while Giants will pay Jones $41M a year for 2 years work.
Simple.
I was pulling the numbers from the cash paid column in the contract history tab, which doesn't reflect the 2024 cash he'll be paid in 2024. I updated that to 124 in the last table I posted.
Also remains to be determined if the Giants will have paid Jones 82M or 105M.