Last offseason, the decision was made by "the Giants" to retain both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. The team tried to get a deal done with both before the Franchise Tag deadline. No deal could be reached with Barkley. The Giants reached a last-minute deal with Jones that allowed the team to slap the Franchise Tag on Barkley.
When the dust settled, Barkley's non-exclusive Franchise equaled a 1-year, $10.091 commitment. However, the team restructured that deal in July to $11 million, including a $2 million signing bonus.
Which brings us to the point of this thread: Jones' 4-year, $160 million contract including a $36,000,000 signing bonus, $92,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $40,000,000.
2023 could not have gone worse for Jones. He suffered his second career neck injury in Week 5 and missed the next three games. When he returned in Week 9, he tore the ACL in his right knee, finishing his season. On top of all of that, Jones was 1-5 in games that he did start, finishing the year with just 909 passing yards, two touchdowns, and six interceptions. His injuries and performance issues now put into question his long-term tenure with the organization.
NFL owners are rich. Bad contracts are commonplace. But if I'm the owner of the Giants, I am asking some serious questions right now because just a year ago, I was asked to write a $100 million check to a player who may be on his way out in a year. The only way I'm not pissed at someone else is if I am the one pushed for a long-term deal for Jones.
The smarter decision during the 2023 offseason would have been to let Barkley walk in free agency and tag Jones. So my question is this? Who is chiefly responsible for making the decision on the Jones' contract?
Option #1: While Mara will provide his opinion, he completely defers to Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll on personnel issues. The decision to retain Jones with a huge contract is completely on them. And Mara and Tisch have every right to be really upset at this point, especially if the team is truly considering drafting another quarterback.
Option #2: All parties are equally responsible, Schoen and Daboll not only believed in Jones, but so did ownership and family members such as Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara. Schoen and Daboll don't have complete autonomy, but in this case it did not matter.
Option #3: Schoen and Mara had their doubts about Jones, but ownership/family pushed for a long-term commitment based on what ended up being fool's gold (the "legendary" Vikings playoff game).
The public will probably never know the truth, but it is an important question because someone screwed the pooch big time. The contract erased the cap gains the team made in 2022 and set back the rebuild by at least one year, and probably two. It was a colossal mistake. And who is largely responsible may determine how shaky the ground is around Schoen and Daboll.
Schoen's failure was he didn't properly manage up and protect his bosses from themselves. The "we're not keeping Jones" conversation needed to start the day Schoen was interviewed for the GM job and continue throughout 2022.
Schoen is a first time GM. We don't know if he's good at this or not. We're hoping his prior experiences pay off here.
Thus, assuming he's too smart to make this type of a mistake on assessing Jones is really one hell of a benefit of the doubt.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
The thing that makes it hard to judge re Jones, is that if ownership was forcing Jones on JS/BD, why didn't they give him the 5th year option in 2022? It would have been a much cheaper way to show commitment while still giving themselves 2 years to make him prove himself instead of 1. Franchise was the 2nd best option.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
I agree with most of this.
Now, if that buffoon Gettleman was still here, I would absolutely assume Mara was pulling strings. Because that was why Gettleman was hired. He knew how to please Mara...
But what about the politics of Barkley? I'm not saying its the wrong move by any means, but why was it so important to use the tag on Saquon 1 year ago and now they let him walk for nothing?
It's not just using the tag on Saquon, its more NOT using it on Jones when it was the perfect scenario for it.
Did Saquon's play this season change their thinking that dramatically?
over Daniel Jones' contract, you might as well include ALL the relevant information... such as... the 2022 Giants made a surprising turn-around in the first season under an entirely new regime, and that success was in large measure due to two players: Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. The entire organization was trying desperately to keep a good thing going after so many putrid seasons. They failed miserably, but it easy to see that their road to perdition was paved with good intentions. And BBI got sucked right into the abyss based on all the thousands of good-feel threads from Jan-Aug 2023.
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
But what about the politics of Barkley? I'm not saying its the wrong move by any means, but why was it so important to use the tag on Saquon 1 year ago and now they let him walk for nothing?
It's not just using the tag on Saquon, its more NOT using it on Jones when it was the perfect scenario for it.
Did Saquon's play this season change their thinking that dramatically?
The Barkley stuff is so damn weird unless you accept two possible premises: (1) marketing is more important than we realize, (2) ownership does have a say in personnel matters.
That's where the TT was the play because no one on God's green Earth was coughing up multiple firsts to acquire Jones under the FT. NFW.
And the TT would have revealed the true market value for Jones. I believe ajr nailed it last off-season: the AAV in an open market would have been $25M or <.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
This is fair. The Giants were sitting at pick #24 and DJ rose to the challenge and won a playoff game. I’m sure Shoen and Dabs knew to what degree they limited DJ but he also did demonstrate improvement. There really was no way they could just cut the cord on him and run it with Tyrod Taylor or Carr. The result may have been the same but Shoen and Dabs have jobs to keep and letting DJ go and even going .500 with TT could have meant their jobs.
They extended the risk to 2 years and took the extra cap to support their bet even more. It backfired.
Now pivot. Drastically.
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That's where the TT was the play because no one on God's green Earth was coughing up multiple firsts to acquire Jones under the FT. NFW.
And the TT would have revealed the true market value for Jones. I believe ajr nailed it last off-season: the AAV in an open market would have been $25M or <.
It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
He deserves blame, its outrageous to act otherwise. He was the top 10 in nfl salaries last year and he couldn't put up any points. He wasn't inconsistent or even bad, he was atrocious.
Market value? We'll never know for sure but I highly doubt any other team was given him anywhere near that contract.
They should have either let him find out or tagged him.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The downside, and this would have been long odds, is that a team stepped up and offered a contract that has a higher-than-expected AAV, guaranteed $, etc. A contract that would have really hamstrung NYG.
And, of course, no comp coming back if you couldn't match.
But, again, I think that scenario would have been very long odds...
For example, interview question #1 - Mr. Gettleman, we think that Eli Manning has one more strong run in him as the face of this franchise, should you be the new GM, what kind of plan would you put together to ensure that he go out as the greatest NYG QB of all time?
Or..
Mr. Schoen, We believe that we have a franchise QB in place already here in NY. What plans do you have to fix all the things that your predecessor broke to ensure that he is successful moving forward?
There's only 32 job in the league - what potential GM is saying, "Well, I have to get in there and evaluate the QB position before I can agree with your assertion that the QB is already in place."
I know the answer to that one - none
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
I agree 100%. And I'm not some huge Daniel Jones fan or apologist. The Giants team sucked last season just like it has sucked for a decade.
I think we'll get some insight into whether it was #3 based on the length of the leash that Schoen gets to fix all this. If he stays for a few more years regardless of the season outcomes, it will be sold as "we want stability and we don't want to switch GMs every 3 years," but that would be really telling in my opinion.
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Who were the Giants bidding against? If they ultimately agreed to guarantee jones 90m, who was the team that they were afraid was about to make an offer like that if Jones hit free agency? I have not seen any evidence that a market for jones at the price the giants ultimately paid would have ever materialized.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
But why were they so worried about him hitting the open market? What team was gonna offer jones a big contract? Which other team loved jones? I have never read anything about another team being interested in jones at the price the giants paid. The big complaint against management seems to be they misunderstood the market for Jones.
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It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The downside, and this would have been long odds, is that a team stepped up and offered a contract that has a higher-than-expected AAV, guaranteed $, etc. A contract that would have really hamstrung NYG.
And, of course, no comp coming back if you couldn't match.
But, again, I think that scenario would have been very long odds...
I’m thinking more from the standpoint that navigating FA would be difficult not knowing how it would play out with DJ and year 1,2 cap implications. I may be overthinking.
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Who were the Giants bidding against? If they ultimately agreed to guarantee jones 90m, who was the team that they were afraid was about to make an offer like that if Jones hit free agency? I have not seen any evidence that a market for jones at the price the giants ultimately paid would have ever materialized.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
I suspect that Barkley was playing chicken with the NYG, dragging out the negotiations till the end hoping that they would use the tag on Jones believing Barkley deal was within reach. I believe he wanted out last year.
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He was paid like a middle-tier starting QB and they thought he'd have a better season with an improved OL and skill group. Then they'd have to pay more.
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
He deserves blame, its outrageous to act otherwise. He was the top 10 in nfl salaries last year and he couldn't put up any points. He wasn't inconsistent or even bad, he was atrocious.
Market value? We'll never know for sure but I highly doubt any other team was given him anywhere near that contract.
They should have either let him find out or tagged him.
That's all fine and good - as has been stated many times, one of the big reasons they didn't franchise him was because they expected him to play better with an improved supporting cast, and with the ballooning QB salaries and salary cap, it would've been really costly waiting a year to sign him longterm.
Given that, to literally have pitchforks out demanding how anyone could be so stupid for re-signing him is ridiculous. They gambled on themselves improving around him, with the reigning Coach of the Year and their hotshot young GM adding pieces.
He got injured because the team around him sucked beyond belief, and it isn't working out. But spare me the pitchfork bullshit. It's fan nonsense. The contract was completely understandable given the circumstances and it didn't work out. Let it go and stop demanding a sacrificial lamb.
Schoen and Daboll deserve more sh#t for the surrounding cast around DJ and the overall lack of preparation to start the season than they do the DJ contract.
And that is a frightening proposition. It might discourage the organization from getting a real QB until everything else is in place so they don't "screw up" the next QB.
DJ's crew knew he had ownership backing - he just had the best season of his career - AND the Giants had literally no other options.
Quite frankly I think DJ could have pushed the envelope a bit further if he really wanted to. He did NOT get any where close to a contract as some of the top tier guys did.
If I had to bet - that opt out was put in because of the insistence of Schoen and Daboll. I think ownership went along with it because despite their love for the kid, they must also have a bit of doubt in the back of their minds - otherwise Schoen's first order of business when he got here would have been to exercise DJ's 5th year option.
That's just me guessing.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
We also don't know if the tag came up or not in negotiations. Perhaps Schoen didn't like the tag as it also has some downsides or some other reason.
*cue the Jints Central puff piece about how Chris Mara has really taken a step back and Joe Schoen has complete autonomy to make decisions on EVERYONE on the roster.
Of course Jones plays a role in this failure, but no one has a crystal ball when they make these decisions.
It turned out horribly. I don't think I'd call it a colossal mistake from bad process.
This! Anyone can make great decisions after the fact. A decision that turns out poorly or even colossally bad is not necessarily a bad decision. You can call the all in with AA vs AK before the flop and lose your whole stack. it was still a great decision. You can say the contract was a bad idea at the time (many did). You can say it was OK and turned out very badly. To say it was a colossal mistake is just silly. The only people who should be at risk for being fired or dismissed from the Giants are the ones who judge decisions purely on results.
brian burns just had the giants over a barrel.
mayfield had the bucs over a barrel.
calvin ridley had the market over a barrel.
kirk cousins and his 1-3 career postseason record at 36 off a popped achilles had the falcons over a barrel.
jones was a free agent,
the giants thought enough of him they were either tagging him or extending him,
there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
the mistake the giants made was putting themselves over a barrel thinking the tag was a "worst case" when it really wasn't. though if they extended barkley instead and he had the misfortune of blowing out his acl, everyone would second guess their decision just as much if not moreso.
What better way for the cabal to save face and move on - just the quiet DG retirement.
Jints Central is alive and well :)
DJ's crew knew he had ownership backing - he just had the best season of his career - AND the Giants had literally no other options.
Quite frankly I think DJ could have pushed the envelope a bit further if he really wanted to. He did NOT get any where close to a contract as some of the top tier guys did.
If I had to bet - that opt out was put in because of the insistence of Schoen and Daboll. I think ownership went along with it because despite their love for the kid, they must also have a bit of doubt in the back of their minds - otherwise Schoen's first order of business when he got here would have been to exercise DJ's 5th year option.
That's just me guessing.
Did Baker have any less leverage with the Bucs than Jones had with the Giants. No. Yet they let Baker become unrestricted.
Schoen had plenty of leverage and should have let Jones test the market and become fully unrestricted. Schoen negotiated against himself and got taken to the woodshed by Jones' team.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
washington ended the year last year 12m under the cap. they easily could have maneuvered to sign jones over playing howell (who had completed a total of 11 passes as rookie before last year).
titans had 9m of room, hadnt yet drafted levis, had apparently given up on willis, and tannehill was entering his age 35 with 20m+ of potential salary space to create by cutting him.
falcons ended the year with 7m of cap space, they had been in on watson and were often rumored on lamar as well on the tag. their qb situation was a mess entering the year, which is why arthur smith was the odds on favorite to be the first coach fired.
all 3 of those teams ended up sucking and go through regime changes in large part because their QB situations were disasters. today their projected starters are QBs who were not on their roster 1 year ago. so they were QB shoppers and their head coaches were on the hot seat. if jones hit the open market i predict he would have gotten an even more favorable contract from one of those teams, probably atlanta, since that's ultimately what they ended up doing with 36 year old kirk cousins 1 year later off a popped achilles.
Ironically, the only 'plan' we've seen with any longevity is the six-year-running QB project.
I just don't buy that all these GMs and coaches are idiots. The problem is ownership.
So now he gets grossly overpaid and some want to give the Mara’s a pass? They were screwing us and themselves long before the negotiations even started.
Please stop giving them passes, this idiocy will continue
No way.
there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
The fantasy isn't that Jones might not get an offer. The fantasy is more likely thinking Jones was going to get what he received from Schoen.
When JS and Daboll were hired in 2022, John Mara said during the press conference that the team had done everything it could to screw up Jones and that he still believed in him. I don't know how we can all still be kidding ourselves that Mara is not involved in protecting a mediocre QB who has survived 2 former HCs and is quickly burning the credibility of a 3rd.
Even the fucking Jets have found a way to move on from their mistakes in drafting Darnold and Wilson, both of whom were considered better prospects than Jones, sooner than Mara will ever admit that the team made a mistake and that loyalty to mediocrity is not a virtue.
The chatter is that they wouldn't even take calls about trading him. I understand Barkley was the face of the Franchise, but even then, Schoen KNEW he didn't want his money tied up in a RB.
To me that's worse than the Jones thing, but there were ramifications of what kind of message trading Barkley would have sent to the locker room. Also, if they'd traded him, they might have been picking top 4.
I felt Jones had a good 2022 despite no name WRs and terrible OL. To me, Jones was responsible for most of those 2022 wins. The passing numbers looked low because of the talent around him, but they stayed close in games and Jones made enough plays to win those games. Then he won the Vikings playoff game. His arrow seemed to be pointing up, and he set himself up for his new contract.
By then, I'm sure Schoen wished he'd picked up Jones' 5 year option, but everyone thought that not doing that was a prudent move based on Jones history. Schoen even said if he had to pay more later, that would be "a good problem to have."
I'm also sure that Schoen would have preferred to pay Jones less than he did, but the market for what QBs get is what it is.
The other thing people don't seem to remember was that Jones kind of had the Giants over a barrel. If they'd just let Jones walk, there were no better QB options available to turn to.
Letting Jones walk would have meant a full year of Tyrod Taylor at QB1. If you believe that would have been better than Jones' 2022 season, I can't help you.
FWIW, I think it's Option 1. I think the Giants will enquire about the top QBs in the draft, but I think it's unlikely the Giants draft a QB this draft unless:
1) There's a guy they REALLY LOVE -- not just like.
2) They find a willing dance partner (not necessarily easy)
3) They feel he's worth the cost.
I could see a scenario where even if JJ McCarthy falls to them and 6, they pass on him, just like in 2018 when everyone said they MUST take a QB, and they passed on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen and took Barkley.
I know Giants Nation and the media will shit their cage if they don't draft a QB, but I also think THE GIANTS THEMSELVES are perfectly comfortable riding Jones for another year (providing he's healthy). And putting better pieces in place (like a stud #1WR) that will help DJ or WHOEVER's playing QB in the future.
They're paying Jones regardless, and yes, they'll probably try to restructure him in such a way that still lets them cut him after the season if he plays poorly.