A few months ago there was a heated debate among us about the merits of winning vs. losing meaningless games.
I was criticized for preferring a loss to a win.
I would like to revisit that discussion to see if people's opinions have changed or if they still feel the same now as they did then.
I felt that losing was painful but would benefit the Giants in the long run. I feel that losing was the culmination of an awful year and that an additional loss would be forgotten and insignificant. However, a loss could aid the Giants in obtaining a better draft position.
I still feel that way and wish that we had lost at least one of the games vs. the Packers, Eagles, or the Patriots.
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
To be clear, nobody is suggesting the Giants tank or throw games. This is a discussion of whether a win or a loss benefits the team more.
We can all agree - at least all of the sane posters - that NFL teams do not take the field trying to lose any game.
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
I will kindly ask you to go root for another team. I do not turn on games to root for a loss for any reason.
If you do root for losses, then kindly close you BBI account and go somewhere else.
Thanks in advance.
On the actual outcome of the game. This is a strange argument - as if wanting them to win or lose makes any damn difference at all.
Lol. The "worthless wins" argument is a yearly thing.
Why? Because this team is trash. Always picking high and never proving a thing or changing anything.
At least the other day we were arguing if the Vikings game meant anything or not. Hahahaha.
Garbage
Agreed, its only purpose is to put people on teams so when the arguing ensues you can pull up a thread from 9 months ago to make a point.
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So it is your opinion that the Giants are better off having won those games?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
I will kindly ask you to go root for another team. I do not turn on games to root for a loss for any reason.
If you do root for losses, then kindly close you BBI account and go somewhere else.
Thanks in advance.
Stop being a tool. He can be a fan anyway he wants and you don’t have a say in that.
However, you should question your commitment to winning as you are willing to perpetuate mediocrity for your satisfaction.
Nobody wants the Giants to lose. However, when a team has nothing to gain from a win and something to gain from a loss it makes sense to appreciate a loss.
When the Giants are bad all you have to hope for is improvement and the next year. A better draft positioning will do that.
There is nothing wrong with routing for the Giants to improve and become a champion.
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
And you don’t think we wouldn’t have taken AT anyways?
If they can't improve the team with that, then losing a couple more games would only mean that they have a higher pick to blow.
You’re mistaken. We picked 25th last year, remember?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
Bingo!
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So it is your opinion that the Giants are better off having won those games?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
I will kindly ask you to go root for another team. I do not turn on games to root for a loss for any reason.
If you do root for losses, then kindly close you BBI account and go somewhere else.
Thanks in advance.
Don’t be an AH
My issue, however, was not about rooting for wins or losses. My issue was with those posters who insisted that winning actually had some long-term value and that was good for the team/organization.
Nothing could be more witless.
With the amount of turnover expected, and the talent void we have, no momentum was going to carryover because of some "wins" we got with DeVito or Taylor snaps.
If Mara was stupid enough to fire Daboll because he couldn't produce back-to-back miracles, that would just have been another reminder how inept Mara is.
So, now we are the 6th pick in the lottery - aka no man's land.
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
+1.
If you think it’s going to be one way, it’s usually not. Just win. Have your players do well. It not only helps your teams mentality but their trade prospects as well. It’s a team sport, one hot prospect won’t change it all unless he’s truly special. The track record is that it’s all over the place. If you are trying to lose, even if you draft “that guy” he’ll be in an environment of losers. And he’ll never live up to his potential around losers.
I would much rather have the first, second, or third picks with the opportunity to select one of the top three players.
Or an opportunity to trade the pick for multiple other picks.
That is how you improve the team.
Failure allows for a complete overhaul, mediocrity breeds mediocrity.
I think DeVito should have been the starter no matter what. Taylor was not coming back and/or we already know what he is. Why use him in pointless games?
Grey should have been given more reps.
That’s not purposely losing, it’s building long term.
To the OP, yes and no. I believe that beating the Eagles is good for the team overall long term. Continuing to lose to the same team over and over plays with your head. But you are correct getting a better pick should help the team.
For the record, I was rooting for losses from the DJ pick 6 on the goal line against the Seahawks.
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In comment 16445938 Archer said:
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So it is your opinion that the Giants are better off having won those games?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
I will kindly ask you to go root for another team. I do not turn on games to root for a loss for any reason.
If you do root for losses, then kindly close you BBI account and go somewhere else.
.
Thanks in advance.
Don’t be an AH
Too bad. Whining about winning is bullshit. Do you watch games to see them lose? I bet you don't. Think I'm an asshole? I think people that want to see the team lose are.
I was quite polite. You might try it.
You might be able to convince me...losing to a team like the jaguars....a team you play every 4 years, a team who has yet to win anything....and draft has 3 players and you will fall to 5th.
Knowing you are going to battle with people you know do not quit.....means more than any draft pick
If they can't improve the team with that, then losing a couple more games would only mean that they have a higher pick to blow.
Can't argue with this. And insofar as the OL drafts, oooofaa!!!
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
They could have drafted all but one player with the 2nd pick in that draft, including Andrew Thomas if they were so inclined.
They also could have traded that pick to someone else who wanted Chase Young and still landed Thomas, plus additional draft picks.
Assuming you have a competent front office, having the higher pick is always better, and that’s just as simple as having more options and better odds.
If you believe in Schoen and Daboll, it is unarguable that from a draft perspective they would have been better off losing every single game in 2023.
Of course, I neither expect nor want the players and coaches to give up.
I'm a fan hoping for an outcome. I have no impact.
As it turns out 75%+ of the time, watching a Giants game on Sunday requires me making sacrifices and pissing people off (i.e., my wife) given our schedules with kids' sports, extended family obligations, etc.
So this hope of mine doesn't require me to turn on the TV and applaud the NYG opposition. I simply stop making the sacrifices I normally need to make to watch.
It works just fine for me. And I'm comfortable with the concept that reasonable minds can disagree.
What I'll never understand are the rubes who feel the need to tell people to go root for another team, or act like they're somehow a better fan because they're cheering heart and soul for utterly meaningless victories.
Even better when they double-down at a time when the NYG need a quarterback, are sitting at 6, and are facing a pricetag of a future #1 +++ to move up just 2-3 places to get what they need.
I truly don't get it. Root for whatever you want. But being simple-minded doesn't make you one iota better than anybody else.
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So it is your opinion that the Giants are better off having won those games?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
I will kindly ask you to go root for another team. I do not turn on games to root for a loss for any reason.
If you do root for losses, then kindly close you BBI account and go somewhere else.
Thanks in advance.
What an idiotic comment. Someone has a different opinion, so choose to be a douche to them. Nice
Tanking is a terrible practice that does more harm than good to a team. The players, coaches, staff, etc. need to continue to develop and improve even if they've piled up losses during the season and I don't see how they do that if they decide to stop competing.
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
Yes, it is my opinion that winning games is better than losing them.
Teams at the top of the draft tend to stay at the top of the draft, because just having a higher pick guarantees nothing.
We played this game back during the Chase Young game when everyone was convinced that Washington actually "won" because they guaranteed a higher draft pick. The Giants got the better player, and Washington never had a winning team with that particular "generational talent" on their roster.
Bad teams stay bad because their systems suck. Winning helps establish a better system. Winning games should be the priority.
I do not question your commitment to the Giants and you have no right to question mine.
I want the Giants to win and I cannot tolerate mediocrity.
I think that you are a narcissist and totally about your satisfaction.
As for playing football, I played Division 1 at Tulane and I chose my career rather than pursuing football.
I also competed in MMA and boxing.
I know that the players and coaches always want to win. I am responding as a fan, not a player. There is no way that anyone could convince me that NE making that field goal rather than missing it was positive.
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So it is your opinion that the Giants are better off having won those games?
The Giants are drafting 6th.
They may miss out on the top (4) QBs and a generational wide receiver. This doesn't bother you?
Even if you do not want the QBs, the Giants would be able to trade the pick for a ransom.
This draft could have been transforming and established the Giants for years to come.
I would trade a loss for that opportunity
Yes, it is my opinion that winning games is better than losing them.
Teams at the top of the draft tend to stay at the top of the draft, because just having a higher pick guarantees nothing.
We played this game back during the Chase Young game when everyone was convinced that Washington actually "won" because they guaranteed a higher draft pick. The Giants got the better player, and Washington never had a winning team with that particular "generational talent" on their roster.
Bad teams stay bad because their systems suck. Winning helps establish a better system. Winning games should be the priority.
This is an extremely simplistic take.
Bad teams stay bad because they are run poorly. Wins are a byproduct of preparation, efficiency, and sound decision-making, not vice-versa. A couple of wins with a dumbass meme QB have no impact whatsoever on the system that is in place. It's honestly baffling that so many people seem to think winning 6 games instead of 3 last year is going to have any impact whatsoever on the fortunes of the Giants moving forward.
And again, using the Chase Young example, let's say the Giants had lost that game and gotten the 2nd overall pick. There's no rule that said they HAD to draft Chase Young with it.
What if, instead of drafting Young, the Giants recognized the value in trading that pick to a team that really wanted Young? Maybe Washington, an organization (at the time) run by complete fucking bozos, would have paid a small fortune to move up to #2 for him?
DOH! I try to remember that for future.
Some believe that those wins at the end of the season were more beneficial than losses.
There came a point last year where I was openly rooting for losses. Ideally, competing but losing in the end. I saw losing as the path that would put us in the best position to improve our team, and still believe that.
If we were going to win down the stretch, I wanted it to be a dominating performance I could feel really good about. Ugly wins down the stretch did absolutely nothing for me --I couldn't feel good about the team's performance despite a 'W' on the score card, and it put us one step further away from having stronger better options in the draft.
That's how I felt, and still do.
The question is about what you were rooting for as a fan, not what the team should do. NFL teams do not tank. Nobody is suggesting they do or should.
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We wound up with Andrew Thomas over Chase Young…
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
To be clear, nobody is suggesting the Giants tank or throw games. This is a discussion of whether a win or a loss benefits the team more.
We can all agree - at least all of the sane posters - that NFL teams do not take the field trying to lose any game.
Thank You!!!
This notion that because you're rooting for draft position, you're suggesting the team should tank, is insane.
We all get it -the players and coaches are not thinking of tanking.
Rooting for draft position is simply rooting for what one thinks is best for the long-term future of the team. I find it very hard to understand how anyone could prefer the catastrophic 2023 victories over the Pats and Commanders over having the 1.02 or 1.03 in the draft. Would you rather have the wins on the Giant's historical record or be in position to draft a potential franchise QB and have hope for the future (without trading away future premium draft picks I might add)?
We won games we should have lost because we have a HC who will not accept losing. We should want that.
Luckily, that's never been the argument.
Drafts aren’t guaranteed, you play every game to win.
You can pretty much end the thread right here. I think the best GMs can get past not having the top pick. How good is your talent eval? Are Caleb, Jayden sure things? Too many factors. As a coach that's been taught to win all the time, can't expect Daboll to try and lose.
I'd happily trade those Devito wins and the meaningless win vs the Eagles to get a crack at a franchise QB in this draft.
Don't blame the players or coaches for trying to win though. The only brightside to those wins is it shows the team didn't quit on Daboll and the floor for the team is higher than the Judge/Schumur years.
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if other fans root for wins in lost seasons. What difference does it make? Me rooting for a win has absolutely zero impact on the outcome. If the argument is that the coaches and/or players should want to lose, then you’ve totally lost me.
Luckily, that's never been the argument.
Agreed.
However if it were the argument, I definitely see more vitriol from the pro-wins fans. The classic, "if you're rooting for losses, you're not a true Giants fan" crowd. WTF.
I'd happily trade those Devito wins and the meaningless win vs the Eagles to get a crack at a franchise QB in this draft.
Don't blame the players or coaches for trying to win though. The only brightside to those wins is it shows the team didn't quit on Daboll and the floor for the team is higher than the Judge/Schumur years.
ITA. At the end of the day, the players and coaches are trying to win if they haven’t totally checked out. (I guess that explains the ridiculous decision to play Tyrod Taylor over Tommy Devito.) But I didn’t understand fans not looking at the bigger picture since it’s obvious that late season victories don’t carry over in any meaningful way.
The Green Bay win was a complete disaster for their draft position.
There is a short answer key here - if you have ever posted "please go root for another team," then you are actually the asshole in the conversation. Nobody appointed you the keeper of all that is truth. You appointed yourself.
Losing games doesn't always lead to anything more positive than winning them. All losing does is breed more losing IMO