for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Can someone defend voidable years?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 9:36 am
According OTC, the Giants have $6.5 million in dead money because of voidable years on three UFAs:

Adoree' Jackson ... $3 million in dead money
A'Shawn Robinson ... $2.1 million in dead money
Tyrod Taylor ... $1.4 million in dead money

When you factor in the dead money hits for Leonard Williams ($10.6 million), Mark Glowinkski ($1.5 million), and various other small hits, the Giants have $19 million in dead money this year.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
I've brought that up  
section125 : 3/28/2024 9:39 am : link
a few times - more because of the Eagles and Cowboys doing what I believe is cooking the books.

Once a few teams do it, most teams need to compete with them.
 
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/28/2024 9:40 am : link
Yet the supposed succession plan had Abrams becoming GM?
I'm no expert but  
JayBinQueens : 3/28/2024 9:43 am : link
I think you try to keep the dead money from avoidable years lower than what the cap increase will be
...  
christian : 3/28/2024 9:43 am : link
Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?
i thought they put the non-guaranteed money into voidable years  
Essex : 3/28/2024 9:45 am : link
and then either they cut or resign the player so the voidable years really are voided and are never counted. Basically an accounting trick. But I am not an expert and really do not know.
RE: ...  
christian : 3/28/2024 9:47 am : link
In comment 16448466 christian said:
Quote:
Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?


And then an assumption about what you believe is the downside, and that it's players who are not on the team this year have cap hits. Is that generally the issue you have?
it's the nfl version of layaway  
Eric on Li : 3/28/2024 9:47 am : link
or buying something with no interest for the first 18 months.

all dead money is the salary cap version of buying something but paying for part of it on a future cap, signing bonuses and void years included. that is how a player can sign a 5 year/158m contract today yet only count 7m against the cap in 2024 like Chris Jones.

no gm has a gun to their head, they can pay for it up front if they choose to. or not spend at all. or use their future cap space to pay off something they want right now.

in the end it doesnt matter in the sense that every $1 paid to a player will count against the salary cap $1, the timing of when it hits is the only thing that flexible (with gimmicks like void years, restructures, etc).

as long as such a big chunk of contracts are non-guaranteed (which is probably forever) the system will remain excessively complicated.
RE: I've brought that up  
Eric on Li : 3/28/2024 9:50 am : link
In comment 16448459 section125 said:
Quote:
a few times - more because of the Eagles and Cowboys doing what I believe is cooking the books.

Once a few teams do it, most teams need to compete with them.


nobody needs to do it to compete. teams can do whatever they want. pretty sure the chiefs dont have any void years on their books right now.

it's just an accounting choice. take the hit now, take the hit later.
I don't think it's better or worse than other back-loading methods.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/28/2024 9:59 am : link
They all basically stretch the amortization of bonus money over years that both sides know are largely meaningless.

I think the main difference is that void years don't give the team an option to retain the player for the final year(s). Back-loaded contracts do convey a team option, albeit at a salary that makes the team unlikely to exercise the option. So a void year doesn't generally cost the team anything up front, where the bonus on a back-loaded deal includes some small premium for that team option on the out year(s).
For reference, the league average of dead money  
Ben in Tampa : 3/28/2024 10:03 am : link
is $23.3 million in 2024.
Dead Money Spotrac - ( New Window )
I think Schoen had to use voidable years  
Section331 : 3/28/2024 10:06 am : link
due to the cap mess he inherited. They allowed him to push money into the future, and to his credit, he didn’t go crazy with it. As to whether it should be allowed, that is another question entirely (it shouldn’t).
It is hard to compete in this league w/o using voidable yrs  
Darwinian : 3/28/2024 10:09 am : link
Teams who utilize this option, and cash over cap, literally put more money on the field than teams who don't.
Think of the Williams $ as spending $10M for a 2nd round pick  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/28/2024 10:13 am : link
...Seattle would not have traded a 2nd rounder for him unless the Giants structured his contract so that it would be cap friendly for him to be on Seattle's roster.

If the Giants didn't trade Williams there would be no dead money this year.
Jalen  
pjcas18 : 3/28/2024 10:15 am : link
Hurts void year comes with no dead cap hit. Of course his void year carries a $97M cap hit so there is no chance in hell the Eagles play him on that even in 2029 whatever the cap may be by then.

I doubt his contract gets that far without being re-worked, but today he does not have dead money with his void year.

It's actually kind of genius how they worked his contract (if you believe in his skill set), it's almost like they extended his rookie contract a few years. They basically get a 6 year rookie deal (or close to it) then two years of paying Hurts like an elite QB, then they can cut him at 30 years old with no dead money. I doubt they do that, but they can.

obviously if he's released before then sure, but his void year is his 31 year old season. Eagles probably trade him before then.

It allows teams to borrow from future years salary caps  
Beer Man : 3/28/2024 10:18 am : link
to sign important pieces now. A team can reduce some of the future impact by resigning the player before the end of their contract. Teams also bet on the salary cap going up enough to reduce the impact further.

It seems like it would catch up sooner or later, but somehow/so far the Cowboys and Eagles have avoided cap hell.
How else do you think teams free up money during the year  
ZogZerg : 3/28/2024 10:19 am : link
When high paid starters go down?

The Giants don't do that much with voidable years.

Check out the Saints cap. They are already 80 million over next year's projected cap.
RE: I've brought that up  
k2tampa : 3/28/2024 10:20 am : link
In comment 16448459 section125 said:
Quote:
a few times - more because of the Eagles and Cowboys doing what I believe is cooking the books.

Once a few teams do it, most teams need to compete with them.


Yet the Eagles and Cowboys, who have been doing this for years, have less dead money than the Giants.
If you consider the % that the cap has increased  
Lafferty, Daniel : 3/28/2024 10:21 am : link
and probably will continue to increase year over year with increased revenues -- it makes plenty of sense, if done responsibly.
It gives you flexibility to make new deals now, pushing the money off. As long you are are prepared to eventually pay the piper, the idea of voidable years if a no brainer.
Try Selling that at Work  
upnyg : 3/28/2024 10:22 am : link
Pay me today $$$ and then add it as voidable years after I leave.
NYG  
djm : 3/28/2024 10:22 am : link
are about average in terms of dead money in 24. Can't really sort by dead money but it looks about average. At least they traded Williams for draft picks. That money was somewhat well spent.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Try Selling that at Work  
christian : 3/28/2024 10:25 am : link
In comment 16448517 upnyg said:
Quote:
Pay me today $$$ and then add it as voidable years after I leave.


That's probably exactly how your work does their accounting.
RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:26 am : link
In comment 16448466 christian said:
Quote:
Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?


I don't like $19 million in cap space being wasted when it could be be spent on players.

That's a lot of cap space.
If Cowboys don’t re-sign Dak and let him become a FA  
Rick in Dallas : 3/28/2024 10:31 am : link
The dead money on Dak will come home and bite Jerrah in the ass.
2025 DM. $40 million
2026 DM $14 million
2027 DM. $2 million
2028 DM. $1 million

Things will be interesting the next 11 months in Dallas with respect to Dak contract extension. Also Dak has all the leverage.
RE: RE: ...  
Darwinian : 3/28/2024 10:33 am : link
In comment 16448526 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16448466 christian said:


Quote:


Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?



I don't like $19 million in cap space being wasted when it could be be spent on players.

That's a lot of cap space.


But the reality is that the use of voidable years puts more dollars on the field any, and possibly every, given year. In terms of putting the most talent on the field, using voidable years, paying cash up front and spreading out the hit, easily outpaces a balanced books approach. We want our team to use these accounting loopholes to field the most competitive squad.
I hate kicking the cap can down the road  
Shecky : 3/28/2024 10:33 am : link
And it’s more than just pushing the cap hit in later years.

From a pure finance point, think of it like the Dodgers contract with Ohtani. NPV of future dollars, and playing the cap against it.

In simpler terms. Beyond the cap advantage. A $5mm future cap hit. In FUTURE DOLLARS. And as a percent of future cap percentage. Equals more bang for your Buck. I’m sure I’m not explaining it well. But financially anytime you pay the same dollar in the future, it’s a discount if that makes sense.

That works great when a team is winning. But could the Giants have had the same shitty record the last ten years by signing all min wage players instead? Probably close. But instead of carrying forward dead cap space, they’d be doing the opposite. They’d be carrying over. EXTRA CAP space.

So when they are ready to build. Winner, they’d be at a competitive advantage of actually having three things
1) a higher salary cap then any other team in the league
2) which would allow them to trade for star players like Burns with relatively little draft capital. It happens every offseason now
3) and do this without having to role future dead cap money into future years

Doing this, while managing comp picks like the Eagles and Niners is the surefire way for long term franchise success IMO
RE: If Cowboys don’t re-sign Dak and let him become a FA  
Darwinian : 3/28/2024 10:34 am : link
In comment 16448547 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
The dead money on Dak will come home and bite Jerrah in the ass.
2025 DM. $40 million
2026 DM $14 million
2027 DM. $2 million
2028 DM. $1 million

Things will be interesting the next 11 months in Dallas with respect to Dak contract extension. Also Dak has all the leverage.


These hits are easily offset by one good draft and a cheap QB, preferably on a rookie deal.
The Giants problem is not a cap problem  
Darwinian : 3/28/2024 10:36 am : link
It's a player evaluation problem. They have committed too much money to a poor QB.
It's basically interest free cap space.  
Lafferty, Daniel : 3/28/2024 10:37 am : link
Look at it that way.
As long as you are prepared to account for it down the road, why would you not do it?? You need to sign guys and stay competitive. This is a year to year league with tons of parity.
You kick the can, the cap increases, the dead money per year does not increase, and you continue to restructure deals as you go.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 3/28/2024 10:39 am : link
In comment 16448526 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?

I don't like $19 million in cap space being wasted when it could be be spent on players.

That's a lot of cap space.


This is an earnest question not intended to be patronizing, but you understand those figures just represent dollars already paid to players?

Is your view those players made too much money or would have just preferred the accounting stayed in the years they were on the roster?
RE: RE: ...  
GiantTuff1 : 3/28/2024 10:40 am : link
In comment 16448526 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16448466 christian said:


Quote:


Eric, is your issue with dead money in general or void years that create dead money?



I don't like $19 million in cap space being wasted when it could be be spent on players.

That's a lot of cap space.

I don't like it either but the agreement for it seems to be if they don't spend future dollars today they won't be able to be competitive enough with their offers to sign guys they want in FA.
**argument for it...  
GiantTuff1 : 3/28/2024 10:41 am : link
.
christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:44 am : link
Do the Giants have $19 million less in cap space this year because of the voidable contracts on players who are currently not on the roster?

Seems Philly  
Harvest Blend : 3/28/2024 10:46 am : link
is the gold standard in cap management to many here and they're plenty comfortable with void years.

Personally I hate that approach, but then again the Giants aren't close to winning anything.
FYI  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:47 am : link
Giants are middle of the pack in terms of dead cap space this year.


https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space - ( New Window )
Look  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:48 am : link
at the Chiefs.
RE: christian  
christian : 3/28/2024 10:49 am : link
In comment 16448590 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Do the Giants have $19 million less in cap space this year because of the voidable contracts on players who are currently not on the roster?


Of course. So would your preference have been they paid those players less money, or would your preference had been to account for it when they were on the roster?
Eric  
Lafferty, Daniel : 3/28/2024 10:53 am : link
the Chiefs have 2 voidable years at Mahomes' contract at $60mm per year in dead money -- which they will undoubtedly continue to restructure, as they already have.

Every team uses void years. It would be a disadvantage not to.
christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:54 am : link
My preference is keep voidable contracts to a minimum. Schoen did a good job of cleaning up the cap in 2022, but he screwed the pooch with the Daniel Jones contract. They spent on Burns and the OL and now they are up against the cap again, having to already re-structure Lawrence.

I view dead cap space like I do credit card interest... just a waste.
RE: christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:56 am : link
In comment 16448613 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My preference is keep voidable contracts to a minimum. Schoen did a good job of cleaning up the cap in 2022, but he screwed the pooch with the Daniel Jones contract. They spent on Burns and the OL and now they are up against the cap again, having to already re-structure Lawrence.

I view dead cap space like I do credit card interest... just a waste.


If the Giants were a contender, pushing the can down the road would make more sense. Get your financial house in order now when you are down.
Eric  
Lafferty, Daniel : 3/28/2024 10:57 am : link
viewing dead cap space as equivalent to credit card interest is the straight up wrong way to view it.
It's actually the complete opposite, you are deferring $ interest free and creating more spending cash now.
The dead money does not increase year over year but the cap space and subsequent cash for the team does.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 10:59 am : link
In comment 16448617 Lafferty, Daniel said:
Quote:
viewing dead cap space as equivalent to credit card interest is the straight up wrong way to view it.
It's actually the complete opposite, you are deferring $ interest free and creating more spending cash now.
The dead money does not increase year over year but the cap space and subsequent cash for the team does.


I understand what you are saying, and maybe that's a bad analogy, but my point remains, the Giants ARE being affected by the dead money THIS YEAR. The $19 million loss is REAL.
 
christian : 3/28/2024 11:00 am : link
Got it. So would it be fair to say your view is that it's better for teams to keep the cap chargers for players attached to the years they are on the roster?

For instance it would have been better for the Giants to find a way for A'shawn Robinson to have a 5M cap hit last year? And if not, either paid him less or not sign him?
RE: RE: christian  
Shecky : 3/28/2024 11:02 am : link
In comment 16448614 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16448613 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


My preference is keep voidable contracts to a minimum. Schoen did a good job of cleaning up the cap in 2022, but he screwed the pooch with the Daniel Jones contract. They spent on Burns and the OL and now they are up against the cap again, having to already re-structure Lawrence.

I view dead cap space like I do credit card interest... just a waste.



If the Giants were a contender, pushing the can down the road would make more sense. Get your financial house in order now when you are down.


AMMMEEENNNN brother

But you are pointing out the real problem.
They always think they are about to turn the corner and are ready for the upswing. And all the decisions they make follow that.
Just blow it up and build the right way, from the ground up scouting, players, front office, etc
Are you asking to defend the existence of them or the Giants' use of  
mfjmfj : 3/28/2024 11:07 am : link
them?

They exist as a way to smooth out cap decisions, functioning as someone said earlier as interest free loan against future cap. It is why the Eagles were able to spend roughly twice as much on their roster last year as we did. It is also why when a team says they have no cap room it is usually just GM BS. There is almost always cap room. You just have to decide whether you want to borrow to spend it. Good or bad idea systemically? I don't like it but it is where we are at.

If you want a defense of the Giants' use of it, well that is pretty simple. They have made very little use of it. Assuming the rules don't change that will change at some point in the future. The sensible path is to decide when you have a window and then spend.
RE: …  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 11:08 am : link
In comment 16448626 christian said:
Quote:
Got it. So would it be fair to say your view is that it's better for teams to keep the cap chargers for players attached to the years they are on the roster?

For instance it would have been better for the Giants to find a way for A'shawn Robinson to have a 5M cap hit last year? And if not, either paid him less or not sign him?


Yes. But this gets back to them overrating their chances in 2023. I think they felt they were going to be far better. I just hope moving forward there aren't a lot of voidable years. I understand it needs to be done, but it does come at a cost.
and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/28/2024 11:11 am : link
keep this in mind with A'Shawn. While he played very well the second half of the season, the Giants didn't get much out of him in the first half because he was still recovering from his injury. They basically paid him for half a season.
Tacking on void years  
PHX Giants Fan : 3/28/2024 11:14 am : link
makes sense for a team trying to create cap room so they can squeeze in a player or two for a Super Bowl run.

Obviously, a team as bad as the Giants have been shouldn't be doing this.
I'm not sure why people have disdain for third lthis accounting maneuv  
Darwinian : 3/28/2024 11:15 am : link
NFL payrolls are not akin to personal finances. They are more similar to the nation's finances. And since the nation can print money and take advantage of rising inflation over time, it is good strategy to spend future money now. We can quibble over how much we should incur deficits but the general idea is not questioned by any serious economist.

For NFL payrolls, unlike personal borrowing, there is no interest hit, plus the cap keeps increasing. Like the nation, NFL teams basically print money, so spending dollars today, earmarked for the future, makes sense.
Eric  
Lafferty, Daniel : 3/28/2024 11:18 am : link
Aside from voidable contract years, GMs almost always (responsibly) build in out's to contracts where they can cut a player and eat the cap hit. See: Jones, Daniel.
The fact is, every contract is not going to be a winner. Every team strives for perfect player evaluation and performance but it is not possible.
Dead money is the price you pay for roster flexibility in a league where player performance is always fluctuating and the cap is always increasing.
Should not be sweating $19mm in dead cap in '24 -- that is business as usual in today's NFL.
Giants this year  
ElitoCanton : 3/28/2024 11:18 am : link
are pre spending. Preparing for the time when they have the rookie QB they draft on his cheap rookie deal. Jones' ridiculous salary will be done soon and they will be in very good shape in their cap entering next season.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner