after QB I thought edge rusher was the next need on the team and the 2nd most important position after QB. I think it's more important than a #1 receiver, again that's just me. To get a stud Edge Rusher for a 2nd rounder is a steal.
Money aside, he's the equivalent of getting a 1st round pass rusher in this draft.
We are not talking about this enough.
I agree. 26-year-old legit pass rusher who can play standing up and as a down lineman.
I think the news cycle of free agency came on and this got buried a bit. But no matter what they do in the draft, I think this is the best transaction of the offseason.
and we will have a top ten defense. I well remember the early 80s when the defense was one that other teams did not want to face.
The offense lagged for several years, and we developed the "prevent offense." The role of the offense when they got the ball was to not lose yardage or turn the ball over. Let the defense go out there with good field position and take care of the scoring.
and we will have a top ten defense. I well remember the early 80s when the defense was one that other teams did not want to face.
The offense lagged for several years, and we developed the "prevent offense." The role of the offense when they got the ball was to not lose yardage or turn the ball over. Let the defense go out there with good field position and take care of the scoring.
And you need a strong defense if you want to win in the NFC East.
A strength that wins teams games. Dex, Burns, KT, Okereke, Ojulari, McFadden, Simmons…definitely need a 5 tech type in the draft still
I wouldn't put McFadden and Simmons in that group.
A linebacker to pair with Okereke would be nice. I bet Schoen takes another late round flyer. I’m also hoping we see a leap from Dyontae Johnson although can’t count on that of course.
If you can get to the QB with four linemen, that makes it a whole lot easier on the back seven. (The 49ers proved that over-and-over, last year). If Burns can be our Nick Bosa, Kayvon Thibodeaux may get 15+ sacks this year.
The Giants' biggest problem on defense last year, was piss-poor tackling. Wink preached turn-overs, the downside is failing to wrap. The new coaching staff needs to emphasize multiple bodies on the ball and tackling efficiency.
to me is that I don’t think Burns or KT have ever played opposite of someone as talented as each other. I expect big things from them.
Plus, I think Ojulari in spot duty could be lethal, and help him stay healthy. From a giants.com article before last season:
Quote:
…Giants outside linebacker Azeez Ojulari. "He has 13.5 sacks on 538 rush attempts, or just about one in every 40 tries," wrote Barnwell. "Nick Bosa, to bring up a star edge rusher, has generated one sack every 44 attempts over that same time frame.
I've always thought of Ojulari as a contemporary version of Osi - a quick lethal cat (only limitation is that he's not a 4 down player, because he's not stout against the run).
I like Riley a lot in a 4-3, alongside Dex. If they can terrorize the inside and keep the DEs clean, that can be huge.
More on Ojulari - He needs to play at a lean & mean weight; when he bulks up, it slows him down and destroys his agility. I hope the coaching staff recognizes that, else he's just another fat slow heavy weight stuffed in a welterweight's frame.
So many fans are talking about a top 5ish pick in the 2025 draft, someone tell that to Joe Schoen, NYG has spent the fourth most of any team in free agency this year and traded a very valuable draft pick, 39 overall.
RE: This acquisition represents an expectation to win in 2024
So many fans are talking about a top 5ish pick in the 2025 draft, someone tell that to Joe Schoen, NYG has spent the fourth most of any team in free agency this year and traded a very valuable draft pick, 39 overall.
Despite the diligence done on the QBs, my conspiratorial devil still feels there is a chance they think Jones is the guy : )
after QB I thought edge rusher was the next need on the team and the 2nd most important position after QB. I think it's more important than a #1 receiver, again that's just me. To get a stud Edge Rusher for a 2nd rounder is a steal.
+1. I was with you Ed. I think anytime they see a talented DL I they like in rounds 2 or 3 they should strongly consider taking him.
he is a hands down better player than thibs has been so far, though hopefully now thibs is able to step his game up to another level in year 3. the 2022 draft was a great one for pass rushers and the only 1 anyone would take over him is hutchinson, and while id take hutchinson i think they are at least same tier. walker and thibs are a level below.
i agree people do not realize yet what they got with him. there is not yet enough expectation on the type of unit bowen could/should be able to put together. it could pretty simply be as good as his best unit on TEN (see link). burns, lawrence, thibs, okereke is absolutely a top shelf start to the front 7. Comparing Bowen's best TEN defense to NYG roster - ( New Window )
I agree that these highlights alone show he is an elite talent
actually, not sure I see the elite bend, but he clearly has the burst off the line, has surprising power, understands leverage and putting the OT off balance
Money aside, he's the equivalent of getting a 1st round pass rusher in this draft.
We are not talking about this enough.
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Burns is better than a first time pass rusher because we know he won’t bust. Also, first year edge players often take a year to gain traction.
I'd much rather have the draft picks and the $141m back. Burns seems like a good player, but he's a 2nd or 3rd tier pass rusher who nothing special against the run but the Giants gave away the 39th pick in the draft and are paying him like a superstar. Bad teams stay bad by paying average players like good one and good ones like great ones. Again, I sure hope I'm wrong!!!
RE: This acquisition represents an expectation to win in 2024
So many fans are talking about a top 5ish pick in the 2025 draft, someone tell that to Joe Schoen, NYG has spent the fourth most of any team in free agency this year and traded a very valuable draft pick, 39 overall.
It's year 3 for Schoen. The pressure to win clouds judgement for every GM. Hopefully Schoen got this right.
RE: I hope I'm wrong but I don't like the trade at all
I'd much rather have the draft picks and the $141m back. Burns seems like a good player, but he's a 2nd or 3rd tier pass rusher who nothing special against the run but the Giants gave away the 39th pick in the draft and are paying him like a superstar. Bad teams stay bad by paying average players like good one and good ones like great ones. Again, I sure hope I'm wrong!!!
Fair view point.
And the high second had value
As does the money
Counter-argument
-What are the chances of getting a player with that kind of ability with the pick that was traded?
-Money will be spent - where should they have spent it? Barkly and McKinney?
Barkley 3 years/$37.75 million ($12 mil/year)
McKinney 4 years/$68 million ($17 mil /year)
Total $29 mil/year
Burns 5 years, $141M = $28 mil/year
I was skeptical at first, but now like the money spent on a difference maker at a premium position to make the pass rush a real strength of the team. Also, unlike Barkley - Burns is an ascending player (and his contract will look quite reasonable in another year)
I re-reading your post, the difference in opinion is based on how good Burns is.
I agree with your premise - but I think Burns will be a top tier ER (if he is not already). The highlights show his ability.
I guess the thing is - top 5 ERs do not become available. So the best you can do - is get a guy whose numbers are 2nd tier, who you evaluate as top tier.
I just did some research and found this from a November 2023 article
7. Brian Burns, Carolina Panthers
Burns' numbers have improved each season, going from seven sacks as a rookie in 2019 to nine in both 2020 and ‘21, then a career-high 12.5 last season. Seeking a big-money extension, Burns had a dominant Week 1 performance in spite of the Panthers' loss to the Falcons (1.5 sacks, a quarterback hit, tackle for loss, forced fumble and seven tackles). He plays with a relentless motor, too. The Rams reportedly offered two first-round picks for his services last year and were denied. His consistency and gradual improvement has cemented his place among the NFL's elite.
I re-reading your post, the difference in opinion is based on how good Burns is.
I agree with your premise - but I think Burns will be a top tier ER (if he is not already). The highlights show his ability.
I guess the thing is - top 5 ERs do not become available. So the best you can do - is get a guy whose numbers are 2nd tier, who you evaluate as top tier.
In Schoen we trust I guess, if Burns was two years older I'd absolutely hate the deal but I do see that he can still take a step up
We are not talking about this enough.
I thought KT had a good '23 season. He just goes too silent @ times. But I'm still super high on him.
We are not talking about this enough.
I agree. 26-year-old legit pass rusher who can play standing up and as a down lineman.
I think the news cycle of free agency came on and this got buried a bit. But no matter what they do in the draft, I think this is the best transaction of the offseason.
We are not talking about this enough.
The equivalent of a blue chip pass rusher in this draft, not just a 1st rounder
The offense lagged for several years, and we developed the "prevent offense." The role of the offense when they got the ball was to not lose yardage or turn the ball over. Let the defense go out there with good field position and take care of the scoring.
The offense lagged for several years, and we developed the "prevent offense." The role of the offense when they got the ball was to not lose yardage or turn the ball over. Let the defense go out there with good field position and take care of the scoring.
And you need a strong defense if you want to win in the NFC East.
I wouldn't put McFadden and Simmons in that group.
Quote:
A strength that wins teams games. Dex, Burns, KT, Okereke, Ojulari, McFadden, Simmons…definitely need a 5 tech type in the draft still
I wouldn't put McFadden and Simmons in that group.
A linebacker to pair with Okereke would be nice. I bet Schoen takes another late round flyer. I’m also hoping we see a leap from Dyontae Johnson although can’t count on that of course.
We are not talking about this enough.
What is even more exciting is that he did what he did on a bad team....cant wait to see him work
Behind Lawrence and Nunes are a bunch of guys we all hope take enough of a jump forward. I'm surprised they haven't signed some veteran depth there.
I'm very glad they upgraded the pass rush, but the big issue last year was run defense.
Behind Lawrence and Nunes are a bunch of guys we all hope take enough of a jump forward. I'm surprised they haven't signed some veteran depth there.
I'm very glad they upgraded the pass rush, but the big issue last year was run defense.
I think they have enough NT types. They need a 3-technique.
I liked how Davidson was coming along.
didnt we all get excited when it happened.. it was the talk of free agency.. but its draft mode now..
Behind Lawrence and Nunes are a bunch of guys we all hope take enough of a jump forward. I'm surprised they haven't signed some veteran depth there.
I'm very glad they upgraded the pass rush, but the big issue last year was run defense.
I think they have enough NT types. They need a 3-technique.
Yup, I should correct that to say next to Lawrence and Nunes. Assuming they are the nose tackle rotation.
And I'm not saying the young guys won't develop, but it's a much less impressive group on paper compared to last year going in.
A couple of months ago (before they signed Burns) -
https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/2/6/24063098/shane-bowen-breakdown-the-advantage-of-a-four-man-rush-ny-giants
If you can get to the QB with four linemen, that makes it a whole lot easier on the back seven. (The 49ers proved that over-and-over, last year). If Burns can be our Nick Bosa, Kayvon Thibodeaux may get 15+ sacks this year.
The Giants' biggest problem on defense last year, was piss-poor tackling. Wink preached turn-overs, the downside is failing to wrap. The new coaching staff needs to emphasize multiple bodies on the ball and tackling efficiency.
Plus, I think Ojulari in spot duty could be lethal, and help him stay healthy. From a giants.com article before last season:
I've always thought of Ojulari as a contemporary version of Osi - a quick lethal cat (only limitation is that he's not a 4 down player, because he's not stout against the run).
I like Riley a lot in a 4-3, alongside Dex. If they can terrorize the inside and keep the DEs clean, that can be huge.
More on Ojulari - He needs to play at a lean & mean weight; when he bulks up, it slows him down and destroys his agility. I hope the coaching staff recognizes that, else he's just another fat slow heavy weight stuffed in a welterweight's frame.
If you take a look at that Burns video, it's really exciting, because he looks like an every down player.
They can even play a little NASCAR package now with Thibs, Lawrence, Burns, and Ojulari (if you consider a 325 LB Lawrence speed rusher!)
Despite the diligence done on the QBs, my conspiratorial devil still feels there is a chance they think Jones is the guy : )
Quote:
As for the front 7, don’t sleep on Jordan Riley. He showed some stuff last year.
I liked how Davidson was coming along.
Totally agree. Nacho is decent too! I do wish we brought back A Shawn.
+1. I was with you Ed. I think anytime they see a talented DL I they like in rounds 2 or 3 they should strongly consider taking him.
Quote:
Money aside, he's the equivalent of getting a 1st round pass rusher in this draft.
We are not talking about this enough.
The equivalent of a blue chip pass rusher in this draft, not just a 1st rounder
Agreed. Cedric Jones was a high 1st round "pass rusher." 1st round picks bust. Burns has established himself.
I think they have enough NT types. They need a 3-technique.
Yeah they have Dex, Nacho, Riley, and Davidson and NT. They desperately need at least one DE.
i agree people do not realize yet what they got with him. there is not yet enough expectation on the type of unit bowen could/should be able to put together. it could pretty simply be as good as his best unit on TEN (see link). burns, lawrence, thibs, okereke is absolutely a top shelf start to the front 7.
Comparing Bowen's best TEN defense to NYG roster - ( New Window )
A guy like that is easily a top 5 pick
Thibs was 5 and isn't nearly that good (yet)
The hope is that Burns pressures Thibs to reach his potential
Dex, Burns, Okereke and Thibs and a formidable group.
No reason why our pass rush cannot be top 5 in the NFL this year.
Nick Bosa
Quennen Williams
Ed Oliver
Brian Burns
Dexter Lawrence
Jeffrey Simmons
Montez Sweat
Hard to believe the Giants now have two of those guys under contract for several more years.
Of course, it's the #6 pick that is the issue from that draft that is the main focus going into the 2024 draft...
Quote:
A strength that wins teams games. Dex, Burns, KT, Okereke, Ojulari, McFadden, Simmons…definitely need a 5 tech type in the draft still
I wouldn't put McFadden and Simmons in that group.
Not sure if it's 'company line,' but Carl Banks is really high on McFadden. FWIW.
We are not talking about this enough.
Burns is better than a first time pass rusher because we know he won’t bust. Also, first year edge players often take a year to gain traction.
I think we're also justifiably wary of ANY move this regime makes. It's a wait and see type player paid by a wait and see FO.
Excited but wary.
It's year 3 for Schoen. The pressure to win clouds judgement for every GM. Hopefully Schoen got this right.
Fair view point.
And the high second had value
As does the money
Counter-argument
-What are the chances of getting a player with that kind of ability with the pick that was traded?
-Money will be spent - where should they have spent it? Barkly and McKinney?
Barkley 3 years/$37.75 million ($12 mil/year)
McKinney 4 years/$68 million ($17 mil /year)
Total $29 mil/year
Burns 5 years, $141M = $28 mil/year
I was skeptical at first, but now like the money spent on a difference maker at a premium position to make the pass rush a real strength of the team. Also, unlike Barkley - Burns is an ascending player (and his contract will look quite reasonable in another year)
I agree with your premise - but I think Burns will be a top tier ER (if he is not already). The highlights show his ability.
I guess the thing is - top 5 ERs do not become available. So the best you can do - is get a guy whose numbers are 2nd tier, who you evaluate as top tier.
7. Brian Burns, Carolina Panthers
Burns' numbers have improved each season, going from seven sacks as a rookie in 2019 to nine in both 2020 and ‘21, then a career-high 12.5 last season. Seeking a big-money extension, Burns had a dominant Week 1 performance in spite of the Panthers' loss to the Falcons (1.5 sacks, a quarterback hit, tackle for loss, forced fumble and seven tackles). He plays with a relentless motor, too. The Rams reportedly offered two first-round picks for his services last year and were denied. His consistency and gradual improvement has cemented his place among the NFL's elite.
I agree with your premise - but I think Burns will be a top tier ER (if he is not already). The highlights show his ability.
I guess the thing is - top 5 ERs do not become available. So the best you can do - is get a guy whose numbers are 2nd tier, who you evaluate as top tier.
In Schoen we trust I guess, if Burns was two years older I'd absolutely hate the deal but I do see that he can still take a step up