Duggan: NYG can outbid Vikings in trade up

But the Vikings seem willing to pay absurd prices, so it's a question of whether we should.

You want an elite prospect the Giants are in the spot to get one.

BBI - we had that over a month ago...

mentioned that in one of the threads last week. It all comes down to dipping into next year. 6 gets you a premier player, 47 doesn’t include the 5th year, it’s about a wash depending on which a GM values more.

Without losing next year’s first round pick, then you do it 10/10 times. I just hope they like the 4th best QB in the class, assuming Williams, Daniels, Maye/McCarthy go 1,2,3.

assume that Minnesota would also offer their #1 next year in addition to #11 and #23, and maybe a third as well.

for trey lance when they went from #12 to #3?

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San Francisco a month before that year’s draft sent their 2021, 2022 and 2023 first-round picks, as well as a 2022 third-round pick to the Dolphins so they could jump into the top three and ultimately select quarterback Trey Lance.

adding next year's 1st into the equation seems like a pretty deal if the 2 pick packages are anywhere close to each other, no?

I am intrigued with possible QB options but geez we have so many holes.

Odunze IMHO seems like the safe pick with impact we have not had since Plax.

Not certain how much time the front office will give our current HC and GM. Regardless whoever we take hope its the right selection.

Trading away draft capital for a team most likely battling for third in the NFC East does not seem a good investment.

That is pretty clear assuming Az wants a stud WR as most suspect. But LA may prefer a Minn package with more picks. That's less certain, IMO.

plus when we hear three #1's, I suspect that is tied to a Minnesota trade (ie a drop down from inside the top 5 to 11 would require three #1's)- but it isn't 3 #1's.

First you are swapping pick (example purposes) 4 for pick 11. You are getting a 1st (23) this year and a 1st next year. So the cost in this scenario is 2 number ones.

But, a drop from 3 or 4 to 6 wouldn't need that many #1's and could be had with a combination of swap this year, a 1st next year and a pick or player later next year..

The Giants can definitely move up but it will cost them a 25 pick...

In comment 16464662 jvm52106 said:

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plus when we hear three #1's, I suspect that is tied to a Minnesota trade (ie a drop down from inside the top 5 to 11 would require three #1's)- but it isn't 3 #1's. First you are swapping pick (example purposes) 4 for pick 11. You are getting a 1st (23) this year and a 1st next year. So the cost in this scenario is 2 number ones. But, a drop from 3 or 4 to 6 wouldn't need that many #1's and could be had with a combination of swap this year, a 1st next year and a pick or player later next year.. The Giants can definitely move up but it will cost them a 25 pick...

Exactly.

We have to stop worrying about draft picks to some degree. I would love to keep pick 47 this year though. I think we can get a great WR right there. 6, 70 and a 2025 1st round pick should get it done IMO. Our pick at 6 presents AZ a blue chip WR, Minnesota can't provide that.

because many say we will be horrible is a STUPID plan.. This team with a disaster for an Oline, a QB who played like shit was injured, a backup QB who immediately got injured and a TE that was invisible for most of the season won 6 games last year.

I think if we had Drew Lock last year (and he didn't get hurt here) we could have won anywhere from 7- 9 games..

There are a TON of teams in transition.

Dallas has issues in both its staff (lots of changes) and players-contracts, health and declining play).

Philly- will be a good team again BUT they imploded last year and there is nothing to suggest that they aren't on the downswing with Hurts maybe having already played his best, Brown who was not happy last year and loss of leadership and changes in staff.

Washington- is probably worse off then we are. New staff but recycled staff, new QB, average Oline, holes on their defense.

That is just the NFC EAST.

South- NO has issues, Car is a mess overall, TB could be ok but counting on Mayfield and Atlanta could be vastly improved but Cousins isn't young or mobile and is coming off an injury.. (new staff as well).

North-

Det is fine
GB- is improving but still question marks
Minn- all depends on QB but- they still have an average defense and lots of in jury issues from last year.
Chic- new QB, lots of talent- could make a big jump or the HC is a goner..

WEST-

AZ, Sea - should be improved, SF is a rock and Rams have talent..

Overall the Giants could easily find themselves in 7-10 win area with a much improved Oline and a better defense- better consistent pass rush and some luck coming their way. To count on a top 5 draft pick as reasoning to not use picks from next year to get your guy this year would be lunacy..

Theoretically. In the real world, no. Not with our ownership, team needs, etc.

In comment 16464694 jvm52106 said:

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because many say we will be horrible is a STUPID plan.. This team with a disaster for an Oline, a QB who played like shit was injured, a backup QB who immediately got injured and a TE that was invisible for most of the season won 6 games last year. I think if we had Drew Lock last year (and he didn't get hurt here) we could have won anywhere from 7- 9 games.. There are a TON of teams in transition. Dallas has issues in both its staff (lots of changes) and players-contracts, health and declining play). Philly- will be a good team again BUT they imploded last year and there is nothing to suggest that they aren't on the downswing with Hurts maybe having already played his best, Brown who was not happy last year and loss of leadership and changes in staff. Washington- is probably worse off then we are. New staff but recycled staff, new QB, average Oline, holes on their defense. That is just the NFC EAST. South- NO has issues, Car is a mess overall, TB could be ok but counting on Mayfield and Atlanta could be vastly improved but Cousins isn't young or mobile and is coming off an injury.. (new staff as well). North- Det is fine GB- is improving but still question marks Minn- all depends on QB but- they still have an average defense and lots of in jury issues from last year. Chic- new QB, lots of talent- could make a big jump or the HC is a goner.. WEST- AZ, Sea - should be improved, SF is a rock and Rams have talent.. Overall the Giants could easily find themselves in 7-10 win area with a much improved Oline and a better defense- better consistent pass rush and some luck coming their way. To count on a top 5 draft pick as reasoning to not use picks from next year to get your guy this year would be lunacy..

Agree again!

The NFL is basically set up so the last place team can turn their fortunes around quickly. It is a great business model for " hope " for every franchise and makes it hard to be a dynasty.

The key to building a sustainable winning franchise is to get the QB right. Period. NYG has a QB problem. If Schoen can fix it with Maye or McCarthy then we will be moving in the right direction, regards of whether we have all 6 picks this year and all 7 next year.

Move if you can, get the QB and then use free agency and trades to support that move.

Was this ever in question? The question was never do we have enough ammo. The question is should we.

In comment 16464621 Saquon'sQuadz said:

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You want an elite prospect the Giants are in the spot to get one.

Only if you believe any of the top four QBs are elite prospects. I doubt Schoen or any GM believes that. But who of the four are the elite ones probably varies a lot. Really interesting choice.

Giants are going to have to pay a premium for a QB at some point. It just depends on when they want to do it.

Of course the Giants can outbid the Vikes and pick 6 is much more appealing to teams ahead of the Giants, then pick 11.
Especially given the needs of the teams ahead of the Giants.

The real question is whether the QB the Giants want is available for a trade up.

In comment 16464841 Eric from BBI said:

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Giants are going to have to pay a premium for a QB at some point. It just depends on when they want to do it.

They will be faced with this realization at around 8:30pm 2 weeks from now during the Pats, Cardinals and Chargers selection windows. The question is who goes number 2? And then there will be a wild domino effect that will play out over the next 45 minutes or so.

Do they have similar values on Maye-Daniels-McCarthy-Penix?

Are they comfortable staying at 6 knowing they will get 1 of those guys?

Is it Maye only?

All TBD.

.

In comment 16464841 Eric from BBI said:

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Giants are going to have to pay a premium for a QB at some point. It just depends on when they want to do it.

If not now, when?

Our owner says this is best QB draft in years. Sy’s grades indicate that you have 4 of his top 8 grades in the last 12 years, and all players with those grades went 1 in the draft with the exception of Rosen.

The last time there was this many prospects in the first round, you had a 40% chance of drafting a future HOFer.

We have a starting QB who threw 2 TDs last year. And it wasn’t the first time he did that (2020 he was 1-5 with 2 TD passes to 5 INT)

If not now, when?

In comment 16464841 Eric from BBI said:

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Giants are going to have to pay a premium for a QB at some point. It just depends on when they want to do it.

If not now, when?

Our owner says this is best QB draft in years. Sy’s grades indicate that you have 4 of his top 8 grades in the last 12 years, and all players with those grades went 1 in the draft with the exception of Rosen.

The last time there was this many prospects in the first round, you had a 40% chance of drafting a future HOFer.

We have a starting QB who threw 2 TDs last year. And it wasn’t the first time he did that (2020 he was 1-5 with 2 TD passes to 5 INT)

If not now, when?

I have never wanted a draft to be so over as this one..

Is the fact that overall the Vikings have a much better roster than the Giants and are in a better position to afford giving up the picks.

If you told me we'd only have to give up 6 and 47 this year to get a franchise QB, I'd deal with it as a long term move. Unfortunately when you start getting into adding next years 1 etc... we really aren't in a good position to do that.

Minnesota however, can add in future picks and not worry about stripping their roster.

In comment 16464917 Biteymax22 said:

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Is the fact that overall the Vikings have a much better roster than the Giants and are in a better position to afford giving up the picks. If you told me we'd only have to give up 6 and 47 this year to get a franchise QB, I'd deal with it as a long term move. Unfortunately when you start getting into adding next years 1 etc... we really aren't in a good position to do that. Minnesota however, can add in future picks and not worry about stripping their roster.

This is the crux of the problem.

I'm leaning towards the QB because it's the hardest piece to obtain. However, the risk is tremendous and you can screw the team for years.

In comment 16464917 Biteymax22 said:

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Is the fact that overall the Vikings have a much better roster than the Giants and are in a better position to afford giving up the picks. If you told me we'd only have to give up 6 and 47 this year to get a franchise QB, I'd deal with it as a long term move. Unfortunately when you start getting into adding next years 1 etc... we really aren't in a good position to do that. Minnesota however, can add in future picks and not worry about stripping their roster.

Minnesota is also likely to get two comp third round picks next year.

In comment 16464917 Biteymax22 said:

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Is the fact that overall the Vikings have a much better roster than the Giants and are in a better position to afford giving up the picks. If you told me we'd only have to give up 6 and 47 this year to get a franchise QB, I'd deal with it as a long term move. Unfortunately when you start getting into adding next years 1 etc... we really aren't in a good position to do that. Minnesota however, can add in future picks and not worry about stripping their roster.

Bitey, what Minnesota has or doesn't have means very little. It is what the team trading down is willing to do and how far they want to drop.

think any "godfather" offer of picks and players the Giants make to move up for a QB would likely only be done for Maye, or maybe Daniels. They might want to move up for JJM, but would likely be willing to pay a lot less to do so.

The problem is that the teams above them may simply not want to trade down. Chicago, Washington, and New England all need QBs, and more specifically may want to be absolutely sure they get one of the "big four" QBs. Arizona and San Diego may also not want to trade down because they don't want to risk losing a particular player.

It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks.

So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery.

NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

In comment 16464906 blueblood said:

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I have never wanted a draft to be so over as this one..

I go back and forth between that thought and hating/dreading the time(s) of year when there's nothing worthwhile to discuss on BBI. This is the polar opposite of that.

wish the speculation was over.

Let's say it's the AZ Cards.

No way in hell the Giants need to "top" MIN's offer. At #6 they are selling "best of both worlds". Arizona can trade down, collect some additional assets while still having access to a Blue Chip player RIGHT NOW, that they desperately need.

Hopefully this year's #1 and next year's #1 trumps anything the Vikings can offer.

In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said:

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It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

Is this some kind of inside info you have?

In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said:

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It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

This assumes MN would do that deal for Maye OR JJM. And I'm not sure MN gives up three 1's for JJM. If we are to believe this report, the question becomes --what do MN and AZ do if NE trades with NYG and NYG takes Maye? Because if MN has a specific target opposed to a willingness to do for any of the top 4 QBs, then Az may not be as secure in what they have in hand than this implies.

In comment 16464931 jvm52106 said:

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In comment 16464917 Biteymax22 said: Quote: Is the fact that overall the Vikings have a much better roster than the Giants and are in a better position to afford giving up the picks. If you told me we'd only have to give up 6 and 47 this year to get a franchise QB, I'd deal with it as a long term move. Unfortunately when you start getting into adding next years 1 etc... we really aren't in a good position to do that. Minnesota however, can add in future picks and not worry about stripping their roster. Bitey, what Minnesota has or doesn't have means very little. It is what the team trading down is willing to do and how far they want to drop.

A trade up isn't going to be our first two picks vs their first two picks, there will be future firsts etc... involved.

So yes, Minnesota have the means to offer these assets will come into play. If they throw in a 1 and 3 next year the Patriots will suddenly feel a lot better about dropping down to 11.

The question is what assets is Schoen comfortable with giving up next year as we will still have holes in the roster.

In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said:

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It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

And if it goes down this way, Giants fans who want a QB have to understand the reality of the hand the team has been dealt.

You have to adjust to the situation.

"The Giants are set at those spots, with Drew Lock a solid No. 2 quarterback and Tommy DeVito as good as any No. 3 QB in the league."

Sounds more like his agent or a teenage girl with a crush on Cutlets.

Is a Larry Fitzgerald type of player that does not come around often.

As there are also other take talented choices, do not think we should skip on them. Our track record for drafting later is suspect at best.

Better to have a solid player that two who never make it to a second contract.

The desperation factor is something that many arent considering.

The Vikings dont have a choice but to pay the asking price to move from 11 to 3 or 4, which is likely 3 first round picks. How do you sell a fan base on Darnold and Mullins?

The minny gamble will be Penix and Nix, but what if broncos and raiders move up. Now what? You are at 11 and you have no QB. What do you tell season ticket holders?

Minny will always beat the Giants best offer and I hope the Giants are planning on that.

In comment 16465210 BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit said:

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The desperation factor is something that many arent considering. The Vikings dont have a choice but to pay the asking price to move from 11 to 3 or 4, which is likely 3 first round picks. How do you sell a fan base on Darnold and Mullins? The minny gamble will be Penix and Nix, but what if broncos and raiders move up. Now what? You are at 11 and you have no QB. What do you tell season ticket holders? Minny will always beat the Giants best offer and I hope the Giants are planning on that.

Such an odd post. Nothing is guaranteed but the Vikings are rumored to really like Penix and are very likely already in position to sit there and take him at #11.

In comment 16465210 BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit said:

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The desperation factor is something that many arent considering. The Vikings dont have a choice but to pay the asking price to move from 11 to 3 or 4, which is likely 3 first round picks. How do you sell a fan base on Darnold and Mullins? The minny gamble will be Penix and Nix, but what if broncos and raiders move up. Now what? You are at 11 and you have no QB. What do you tell season ticket holders? Minny will always beat the Giants best offer and I hope the Giants are planning on that.

Can't you say the same about the Giants though? How do you sell the STHs on Jones and Lock?

In comment 16464865 JonC said:

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.

+1

Most likely the absolute MINIMUM is the 6th & 47th this year and our 1st next year. That’s the minimum. Most likely another pick or 2 next year.. a 2 or 3 I’d assume.

Whether we start the rookie or play him 2nd half you gotta believe we’re gonna be in the top 10 next year. Giving up 2 top 10 draft picks in consecutive years along with our 2nd and most likely another pick or two next year? He damn well better be sure he’s a can’t miss QB prospect. And even if he is, it’s going to be hard to build the rest of the team with so many holes and no draft picks. We’ll have to go the FA route next year.

In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said:

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It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

You keep saying all this as if you have inside info. Are you an asshat or are you speculating based on various reports in the media?

In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said:

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It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If this is what Minnesota is willing to offer, why wouldn't they just offer it to New England who could then take that and use it to trade back up to 4 since they would already know Cards like the deal? In other words, what you're saying is NE won't make deal with Giants unless they can move to four, but Cards won't do that deal because they already got a great deal from Vikings so NE will just stay at 3 and take JJM. But if that's true why wouldn't the Vikings make the same deal with NE (to ensure they get Maye) and then NE can just take those same assets they just got from Vikings and send them to Cards to move back up to 4 guaranteeing they get JJM (and maybe keep a little extra for themselves)?

Sounds like you're doing a ton of speculating....

In comment 16465210 BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit said:

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The desperation factor is something that many arent considering. The Vikings dont have a choice but to pay the asking price to move from 11 to 3 or 4, which is likely 3 first round picks. How do you sell a fan base on Darnold and Mullins? The minny gamble will be Penix and Nix, but what if broncos and raiders move up. Now what? You are at 11 and you have no QB. What do you tell season ticket holders? Minny will always beat the Giants best offer and I hope the Giants are planning on that.

Not if AZ wants to come out of the draft with a top 3 WR.

In comment 16465446 LW_Giants said:

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In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said: Quote: It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If this is what Minnesota is willing to offer, why wouldn't they just offer it to New England who could then take that and use it to trade back up to 4 since they would already know Cards like the deal? In other words, what you're saying is NE won't make deal with Giants unless they can move to four, but Cards won't do that deal because they already got a great deal from Vikings so NE will just stay at 3 and take JJM. But if that's true why wouldn't the Vikings make the same deal with NE (to ensure they get Maye) and then NE can just take those same assets they just got from Vikings and send them to Cards to move back up to 4 guaranteeing they get JJM (and maybe keep a little extra for themselves)? Sounds like you're doing a ton of speculating....

Also, if Maye is there at 4 Schoen will make the same offer he made to NE to AZ. That would be something like pick 6, 2025 1st 2nd and 3rd or pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st.

You're putting the report that AZ wants 3 1sts to trade with Minnesota with the report that NE wants JJM together and creating this narrative of pure speculation where 10+10=100. Just make your posts stating this is your speculative opinion, or if you have truly have inside info then say that.

In comment 16465455 BleedBlue46 said:

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In comment 16465446 LW_Giants said: Quote: In comment 16465013 dd in Mass said: Quote: It looks like AZ has an Offer you can't refuse from MN. It includes the 11 and 23, the 2025 1st plus. The Giants deal with the Pats which was worked out last month was reasonable, the Pats then tried to engage AZ to move up from 6th to 4th and were told it would take 3 1st round picks. So the AZ GM is holding all the cards, basically because he knows he has a great deal in his pocket with MN. As long as he's ok with Brian Thomas with the 11 pick, he will hit the draft lottery. NE stays at 3, takes JJM, MN takes Maye at 4 and we stay at 6 for Nabors/Odunze This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If this is what Minnesota is willing to offer, why wouldn't they just offer it to New England who could then take that and use it to trade back up to 4 since they would already know Cards like the deal? In other words, what you're saying is NE won't make deal with Giants unless they can move to four, but Cards won't do that deal because they already got a great deal from Vikings so NE will just stay at 3 and take JJM. But if that's true why wouldn't the Vikings make the same deal with NE (to ensure they get Maye) and then NE can just take those same assets they just got from Vikings and send them to Cards to move back up to 4 guaranteeing they get JJM (and maybe keep a little extra for themselves)? Sounds like you're doing a ton of speculating.... Also, if Maye is there at 4 Schoen will make the same offer he made to NE to AZ. That would be something like pick 6, 2025 1st 2nd and 3rd or pick 6, 47 and 2025 1st. You're putting the report that AZ wants 3 1sts to trade with Minnesota with the report that NE wants JJM together and creating this narrative of pure speculation where 10+10=100. Just make your posts stating this is your speculative opinion, or if you have truly have inside info then say that.

Exactly. If Arizona is willing to move down to 11, then they'd probably also be willing to move down 6 if the Giants make them the same offer they've made to NE (i.e. 6th pick, a 2025 1st, 2 and maybe one more swap or future 2nd).

The above poster is assuming that Cards have decided no offer could beat the Vikings, which is weird because the draft is two weeks away still and no one knows what the Vikings or Giants have offered. This is less asshat(y) and more speculation than anything else.