I'm hopeful a new prospective from the Giants new DC will help. I wish we hadn't lost McKinney though.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
I've been consistently surprised by the optimism I've seen about the Giants' defense this offseason. It was a bad unit last season that has lost Williams, Robinson and McKinney. Whatever you think of those players, they signed for contracts totaling $155M this offseason, so they're clearly valued.
Burns is a big addition, but he's the only defensive addition of note this offseason. We'll see what they do in the draft and the rest of the offseason, but I just don't see where a big improvement is coming from based on the personnel.
First of all, Burns is one of the better pass rushers in this league. He's done it. And he is a massive upgrade over Jihad Ward (Azeez can't even get on the field).
Second of all, as a fan of the Giants hiring Wink, I will be the first to admit I was dead wrong. The Giants gave him everything he asked for and he still couldn't stop the run. We were atrocious against the run. The turnovers made fans feel better about him, but you can't count on turnovers, they come and go. In other words, Wink was a big problem.
Will Bowen be better? TBD. He coached in the shadow of Vrabel. But Vrabel obviously really likes the guy... they've been connected at the hip for a while.
Back to personnel... Banks is just scratching the surface. The Giants have KT, Burns, Dexter, Okereke, and Banks.
They have questions in the secondary and at the other starting interior DL spot. Someone recently said that the Giants still think highly of Hawkins, but they will bring in another corner.
If you ask me the biggest question mark right now, it's safety. Bowens will run a ton of double high safety.
They have signed 13 free agents. And they have already had to create more cap space because they were so tight against the cap.
And probably one more stud for the DL. One more chief and a couple of ditch diggers, notably a capable safety unless we have 2 already.
The Giants have had a lot of good outcomes with defensive linemen over the past 10-15 years.
They also have good coaching there.
But make no mistake, with only six picks in the entire draft (supposedly one of the fewest, per team), it's very unlikely we move up (tear emoji for the trade-up crew). We can't afford to, given team needs. Yeah, yeah, it all starts with the QB, we've heard it before (and I agree, it's just, our hands are tied)...
They also need a better than average DT in the rotation besides Dex. We'll see if today's signing makes a difference - but chances are, more likely than not that it won't.
Do they need another plus safety -- probably.
I also would love another ER - this is the Giants Bread and Butter, having a strong core that can rush the passer - something we haven't had in a while
The million dollar question is what is Andre Patterson whispering into the ears of Schoen and Daboll about Riley (and to a lesser extent Davidson)?
ive mentioned this in replies a few times, it's not true. they both inherited their only DC jobs before the NYG from Dean Pees after coaching LBs under him for multiple seasons. Mike Vrabel played under Pees in NE then brought him to TEN from BAL.
Wink was obviously unique in his pressure concepts, but he is gone. The defensive concept will be more typical of what all players are familiar with compared to Wink since he was such an outlier. Changing coordinators is something almost half the league deals with every season. Every other team in the division has new coordinators too.
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for all the talk of QB or bust, this regime is going into a critical sink or swim time relying heavily on unproven late round picks and scrap heap vets. CB, S, DT, G, possibly TE...not to mention counting on JMS to make a leap at C. I'm surprised Schoen wasn't more aggressive filling some of these holes with more certainty.
They have signed 13 free agents. And they have already had to create more cap space because they were so tight against the cap.
I get the reality we're up against. I'm just saying that they had more options to create more space. It may not have been the right move to do it, but we all know what is going to happen here if this team goes 4-13. i'm surprised they weren't more aggressive in trying to give them self fewer holes especially if they are interested in moving up for a qb and losing more draft assets.
And, we had Williams and McKinney against the cowboys week 1 and gave up 40+.
Sure, the D lost 2 good players, but Williams is on the downside of his career.
It's time for some of the young guys to step up.
Folks, you can't have first round picks at every position.
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there is going to be a significant learning curve adjustment here... Wink and Bowen's schemes are completely different.
ive mentioned this in replies a few times, it's not true. they both inherited their only DC jobs before the NYG from Dean Pees after coaching LBs under him for multiple seasons. Mike Vrabel played under Pees in NE then brought him to TEN from BAL.
Wink was obviously unique in his pressure concepts, but he is gone. The defensive concept will be more typical of what all players are familiar with compared to Wink since he was such an outlier. Changing coordinators is something almost half the league deals with every season. Every other team in the division has new coordinators too.
Interesting about the Pees connection but the product on the field doesn't look the same at all.
No one blitzed more than Wink. Vrabel/Bowen were on the low end of the league, and heavily relied on simulated/creeper blitzes (rushing four, but not the four you expected). They also borrowed the wide-9 from Schwartz. Bowen uses a lot of double high safety and split zones... Peas may come into play here since he was in New England.
We'll see, but it looks different to me.
The D had plenty of issues of its own. Do the young players step up? Wink's stated goal was to make the offense one dimensional by stopping the run. That didn't pan out well.
The new DC has stopped the run in Tenn. Wink did with the Ravens.
If it doesn't work this time then maybe it's time to bring back Bill.
Sneaking Jones’s shit play into a thread devoted to defense. Well done.
Isn’t there something out there about the Titans defensive approach for the past 3 seasons?
Interesting that they let Adoree go to the Giants rather than try to get him to fit. Was that under Vrabel/Bowen or earlier?
I’m most interested in how he thinks he can use Burns and Thibs together in run defense. Both seem to be a bit light to play down in a 4-man front.
Interesting about the Pees connection but the product on the field doesn't look the same at all.
No one blitzed more than Wink. Vrabel/Bowen were on the low end of the league, and heavily relied on simulated/creeper blitzes (rushing four, but not the four you expected). They also borrowed the wide-9 from Schwartz. Bowen uses a lot of double high safety and split zones... Peas may come into play here since he was in New England.
We'll see, but it looks different to me.
They are absolutely different playcallers, but schematically im pretty sure they run similar 3-4 alignments and both also ran very different gameplans week to week like the pats did (which comes from pees/vrabel).
henderson and patterson should know what their guys do well so im expecting Lawrence is going to be on the nose, burns (never played for wink obviously) and thibs are going to rush the passer. ojulari hardly played the last 2 years, okereke and banks only played 1 year under wink.
last year despite continuity and better personnel both units got worse results so i guess the value of continuity is just a little lost on me right now. if bowen is the goods his unit should be good.
I think the move is to sign 2 DBs (micah hyde and a corner) then draft an athletic rotational DL day 2. A lot of interesting ones with position flex in the 47 to 70 range (i like jenkins and dorlus a lot).
im sure they will draft a DB at some point too but we've seen those guys take a little time before they are ready to start. does anyone past day 2 beat out holmes, belton, mccloud, flott? probably not.
This, a competent offense compliments the defense
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get a QB who can sustain drives and keep them off the field. Every time we have a good defense they are gassed at the end of games and spent by the end of the season, making up for deficiencies in the offense.
This, a competent offense compliments the defense
I honestly believe that.
A'Shawn Robinson, DT
Quantity over quality. Singletary replaces Barkley. We signed 2 average Gs and you can count Burns as a FA too.
We lost our starting CB and S. We lost Robinson on the DL after trading Williams for the right to pay Burns. This team has not improved over last year, its kind of a wash with the players added and lost.
1st 2 rounds almost has to be WR and CB based on FA visits/needs/value and lack of money.
We will have to redo Thomas's contract but we blew it and should have done it weeks ago when we could have gotten an extra $4 Mil.
The D is better in some areas and worse in others. The kids are going to have to step up. Belton will have to be a starter. Maybe a young CB takes a leap but the team is clearly concerned about it. Seems like they are shopping for a quality CB with no money. They need to do a back loaded contract. I do think we will roll with the kids on the DL. We dont really have a choice.
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The D is better in some areas and worse in others. The kids are going to have to step up. Belton will have to be a starter. Maybe a young CB takes a leap but the team is clearly concerned about it. Seems like they are shopping for a quality CB with no money. They need to do a back loaded contract. I do think we will roll with the kids on the DL. We dont really have a choice.
Obviously, if Schoen is actually on the path to making this team better, the kids he's drafted, and the kids he's kept, on both sides of the ball, are going to have to step up. If they don't, Schoen isn't long for this job
The Giants have one of the best young cornerbacks in the league, the best DT in the league, and of course they are “counting on” their center, they took him in the 2nd round last season.
Beyond that, my response of 13 players was with respect to the team being aggressive to address positions, which clearly they have been. Look at the OL alone.
Beyond that, my response of 13 players was with respect to the team being aggressive to address positions, which clearly they have been. Look at the OL alone.
Eric I agree with you on 99% of stuff on here, but I just looked at your Free Agency scorecards. Each of the last 4 years (I didn't go back farther than that) the giants signed more than 13 free agents. Some of those years they signed significantly more than that. So I just can't think that 13 signings is proof that they were aggressive this year. I guess Schoen knows he's safe. But Daboll can't feel great knowing there are so many key areas of weakness that could sink this season and seal his fate.
Resource allocation in the off-season has been on offense. Seems like they signed a ton of ol and te.
I expect Dabol to be on the hot seat and I would also expect no matter what their #1 pick is for offense. The Giants historically suck after rd2 of the draft, but id expect day 3 to be about defense given the gaps
Beyond that, my response of 13 players was with respect to the team being aggressive to address positions, which clearly they have been. Look at the OL alone.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree.
QB - same or downgrade. I think Taylor is better than Lock but Lock is healthier
RB - I’m not a Barkley fan but this is a downgrade
WR - no change, maybe Hyatt gets better
TE - I think Waller has told the Giants he is retiring, we signed 2 blocking TEs. If Waller retired it’s worse
LT - same
LG - upgrade
JMS - unknown, hopefully better
RG - Elemunor - hopefully better
RT - as of now Neal, hopefully the new coach can get him to play average
The OL is improved
On D
ER - Burns is the big upgrade, pushes Azeez to a role player
NT/DT - Loss of Robinson who played well down the stretch, no significant signings - downgrade
ILB - same
CB - no signings and loss of Jackson. Clearly the Giants feel this is a hole
S - loss of McKinney who played every snap is a big downgrade.
I’m not sure where you are seeing a significant upgrade in overall talent on O or D. What am I missing?
the offense/ST sucking played a part in this but wink's unit dealt with almost no injuries and was still weak all year.
TEN also won 6 games, also had a bad offense by ppg, also lost their starting qb, also played an inconsistent rookie backup, and dealt with more injuries - yet somehow only allowed 21.6ppg. i have no idea how much credit bowen is owed for that relative to vrabel, but if he is competent this defense with burns should be the best nyg defense in a while.
And if you recall, your argument was regarding 2022 versus 2024 and the addition of Nabers or Odunze...
QB: Same, thought Lock does have upside that Taylor did not.
RB: Worse, but perhaps by not as much as fans think.
WR: There is absolutely no comparison. Back in 2022, David Sills and Marcus Johnson were starters early on in the season. Isaiah Hodgins, who was picked up late, was the best WR on the team. He's not even a starter now. Nabers/Odunze, Robinson, and Hyatt are in a completely different class. Major upgrade.
LT: Same (but also better because he's healthy). Back-up situation way better as Eluemunor can play LT in a pinch.
LG: Runyan is a legit LG in this league who rarely gives up sacks. Justin Pugh was signed off the couch and is still unemployed. Also have a legit back-up in Stinnie now in case Ezeudu doesn't develop under the new OL coach.
OC: Same player, but will be better in his second season and is healthy. Also have a legit back-up behind him now in Schlottman.
RG: Major upgrade with Eluemunor over Glowinski, who is still unemployed.
RT: Same, but Giants have protected themselves with Eluemunor and another veteran in Matt Nelson. Big question here is if the new OL coach can get Neal turned around.
TE: The receiving aspect depends on Waller, but the NYG TEs have blocked like crap. They just signed arguably the best two blocking TEs this team has had in years. Blocking? Way better, which also helps the OL.
DL: The loss of Williams and Robinson is a step back. Much depends on the development of Riley and Davidson, both of whom have flashed. Jordan Phillips helps here however.
OLB: Way, way better. Added one of the best at a spot where Jihad Ward was starting.
ILB: Same, but Beavers is two years off ACL and should press McFadden.
CB: Banks lived up to his draft status and should continue to ascend. Adoree' Jackson had a down year last year, but if asshat is to believed, he still could return. Hawkins still may end up being a promising player. I still see this as the same because McCloud/Flott give you the same that what Jackson did. Still they will add a player here.
S: This is the one area where there has been a clear step back unless one of the young guys breakout (Belton, Owens). I also expect a vet and draft pick to be added here.
Summary: The team is way better on the OL than last year, across the board. We have TEs who can actually block. If the Giants draft WR at #6, the WR's immediately become a strength (or if they take the QB instead, then the QB situation changes for the better). The pass rush has dramatically improved. The possible downgrades? RB, second DT, and S.
BTW, special teams looks a lot stronger right now too with a number of returners.
But Dak and others, tore us into pieces.
I also feel Henderson and Paterson are secret weapons
A couple more pieces....defense can be dominant
Interesting that they let Adoree go to the Giants rather than try to get him to fit. Was that under Vrabel/Bowen or earlier?
Adoree was cut a month after Bowen got the job.
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Interesting that they let Adoree go to the Giants rather than try to get him to fit. Was that under Vrabel/Bowen or earlier?
Adoree was cut a month after Bowen got the job.
he wasnt cut his contract expired.
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In comment 16465584 Ivan15 said:
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Interesting that they let Adoree go to the Giants rather than try to get him to fit. Was that under Vrabel/Bowen or earlier?
Adoree was cut a month after Bowen got the job.
he wasnt cut his contract expired.
Not true. The Titans cut him.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16465584 Ivan15 said:
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Interesting that they let Adoree go to the Giants rather than try to get him to fit. Was that under Vrabel/Bowen or earlier?
Adoree was cut a month after Bowen got the job.
he wasnt cut his contract expired.
Not true. The Titans cut him.
Titans release former first-round CB Adoree' Jackson - ( New Window )
Whoever takes the other DT spots will be singled most of the time. They will have to win, KT will be singled up a lot more too.