Apparently this is a sensibility offending position, as I've been called a moron for saying I think he can win a championship here.
But I do think he is. Two things I've been really impressed with.
1) He's squeezed every ounce out of three really flawed quarterbacks. If the Giants bring in a talented rookie I think the sky is the limit.
2) I was a little nervous with how the Wink thing was developing, but I ended up really impressed it appears he wasn't worried about Wink going to a division opponent. I liked how he handled that ultimately. By all accounts he confronted the staff, then fired the rats, and then didn't cower to Wink.
What do y'all think?
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Was Bruce Arians?
Was Doug Pederson?
Gary Kubiak?.
Run along little fella. The grown ups are talking.
Go fuck yourself asshat
This is not the make or break year for Schabs but they have to solve the QB problem or they’ll both soon be history.
Geezus with the focus on one G*d*mn position on the team. If the team - THE WHOLE TEAM - comes out as unprepared as last season and the OL and WHOLE OFFENSE doesn't improve that is what will kill this regime.
Was Bruce Arians?
Was Doug Pederson?
Gary Kubiak?.
Run along little fella. The grown ups are talking.
Go fuck yourself asshat
Fabulous contribution to the community per usual, I applaud you.
lol
I don't believe Belichick or Vrabel will be in play. The Maras' history has been to hire first time head coaches with little or no cache. I think the names to watch are Ben Johnson and Bobby Slowik.
I am comfortable predicting the Giants are closer to 17 than 21 if the composite quarterback play is 17 games of a recovering Jones + Lock + DeVito this year.
this isnt complicated, if "all things considered" what was most different from 2022 to 2023? hint: it was historically different.
It's not complicated, but it's certainly more complex than just the pass pro being worse YoY. The Giants also rushed for ~650 fewer yards YoY.
If you take a post-ACL Jones/Lock/DeVito, subtract Barkley, and put them behind the 2022 line my guess is that group scores closer to 17 than 21 PPG.
To approach 21 PPG with the current QB and skill group, the 2024 line will need to be an order of magnitude better than 2022.
I can give you some unassailable information about that moron.
Overall, I'd say Daboll has shown more positives than negatives.
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Schabs together after 2 years are 15-18-1 … Parcells was 12-19-1 and Bill Belichick was 13-19 in Cleveland. The great Bill Walsh was 8-24 after his first 2 years but then won 13 games in his 3rd year.
This is not the make or break year for Schabs but they have to solve the QB problem or they’ll both soon be history.
Geezus with the focus on one G*d*mn position on the team. If the team - THE WHOLE TEAM - comes out as unprepared as last season and the OL and WHOLE OFFENSE doesn't improve that is what will kill this regime.
I’m not one of those folks saying they have to pick a QB first this year, but even if they fix the rest of the roster, Schabs can’t survive long term and win a championship if they don’t solve the QB problem.
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In comment 16466221 Spider56 said:
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Schabs together after 2 years are 15-18-1 … Parcells was 12-19-1 and Bill Belichick was 13-19 in Cleveland. The great Bill Walsh was 8-24 after his first 2 years but then won 13 games in his 3rd year.
This is not the make or break year for Schabs but they have to solve the QB problem or they’ll both soon be history.
Geezus with the focus on one G*d*mn position on the team. If the team - THE WHOLE TEAM - comes out as unprepared as last season and the OL and WHOLE OFFENSE doesn't improve that is what will kill this regime.
I’m not one of those folks saying they have to pick a QB first this year, but even if they fix the rest of the roster, Schabs can’t survive long term and win a championship if they don’t solve the QB problem.
Well, I can't argue with that.
To your actual question, I would say unlikely. Little too pass happy and I am not sure he really values building a top running game with the RB's. Schoen hasn't done enough getting him the right players but BD has made plenty of his own mistakes. He did say he looked at his scheme so perhaps we see some changes this season. They did add two TE's.
It is very clear that time is not on your side as a NFL HC. I think this is a critical year for him.
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In 2022 with a healthy Jones and Barkley they scored 21 points per game. In 2023 all things considered, they scored sub-17.
I am comfortable predicting the Giants are closer to 17 than 21 if the composite quarterback play is 17 games of a recovering Jones + Lock + DeVito this year.
this isnt complicated, if "all things considered" what was most different from 2022 to 2023? hint: it was historically different.
It's not complicated, but it's certainly more complex than just the pass pro being worse YoY. The Giants also rushed for ~650 fewer yards YoY.
If you take a post-ACL Jones/Lock/DeVito, subtract Barkley, and put them behind the 2022 line my guess is that group scores closer to 17 than 21 PPG.
To approach 21 PPG with the current QB and skill group, the 2024 line will need to be an order of magnitude better than 2022.
of course rushing was down, they lost like
they approached 21ppg in the 2nd half of the season when the order of magnitude better went from "among the worst of all time" to just "among the worst in the league".
even the 2022 line was an order of magnitude better than 2023 and that line was below average. an average OL to slightly above like vegas last year is multiple orders of magnitude different.
Wait, this whole time you thought I meant Daboll would win a Super Bowl on his own? That would be weird. Like he'd playing all the positions and stuff?
Man, you're a lot less sharp than I thought you were. Sorry for the confusion!
Eric, let's try and isolate the variables. Do you think the 2023 team would have averaged 21 PPG if the offensive line played to the 2022 level?
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even the 2022 line was an order of magnitude better than 2023 and that line was below average. an average OL to slightly above like vegas last year is multiple orders of magnitude different.
Eric, let's try and isolate the variables. Do you think the 2023 team would have averaged 21 PPG if the offensive line played to the 2022 level?
yes if the ol played to the 2022 level i think the offense would have scored around the 2022 level. i think that's basically what happened in the 2nd half of the year w/ tyrod + devito. both of their qbrs were lower than jones from 2022 so i think even with some normal level of qb regression they could have maintained 21 ppg with a functional OL. jones numbers werent just worse than 2022 they were worse than his numbers with judge (int rate and sack rates both doubled his career avgs). i think the non-functional OL broke him mentally and then physically.
Important year, will have lots of ‘their players’ on the roster now with the turnover and FA acquisitions. Has to show cohesiveness across the coaching staff, and efficiency in game management and planning. Some significant rule changes for KO, need to see Daboll use that to his teams advantage. How he handles QB and the offense this year will be very telling to whether he can be ‘championship level’.
Lots to prove this year, it is a pivotal one for Daboll and this regime. Need to hit big on the draft picks and Daboll has to maximize each players strength; ultimately, we need to establish an identity as a team. More than perhaps anything else, that will tell me if Daboll has ‘it’. Right now our identity is - soft and sloppy…not where we want to be.
So I give the benefit of the doubt to Daboll at this point. I am fairly certain that 2024 will be a washout year as it will hopefully be year zero of the "post DJ Era" rebuild. My expectations are thus very low, but it would be nice to see the roster begin to take shape with a strong 2024 draft class and Daboll's imprint on a much more robust full throttle vertical passing offense. Whether that is with the cannon of Lock, or that of a rookie with elite arm talent, it will be interesting to see what a Daboll offense can look like when it is not by impeded by the talent limitations of its quarterback.
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In comment 16466372 Eric on Li said:
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even the 2022 line was an order of magnitude better than 2023 and that line was below average. an average OL to slightly above like vegas last year is multiple orders of magnitude different.
Eric, let's try and isolate the variables. Do you think the 2023 team would have averaged 21 PPG if the offensive line played to the 2022 level?
yes if the ol played to the 2022 level i think the offense would have scored around the 2022 level. i think that's basically what happened in the 2nd half of the year w/ tyrod + devito. both of their qbrs were lower than jones from 2022 so i think even with some normal level of qb regression they could have maintained 21 ppg with a functional OL. jones numbers werent just worse than 2022 they were worse than his numbers with judge (int rate and sack rates both doubled his career avgs). i think the non-functional OL broke him mentally and then physically.
I agree Eric.
I am not sure where the line is drawn from offensive line was abysmal to just sucks -- but in the games Jones didn't start the team scored 18 PPG.
Given the quarterback group is post-ACL Jones, Lock, and DeVito (and no Barkley) -- is it likely the offensive is good enough to buoy them from 18 to 21 PPG? I'd wager no.
I'll frame it this way, given where the roster is today, if I could upgrade one position to increase my odds of equalling 21 PPG, it would be quarterback.
We could not compete with Dallas or Philly in 2022 because of the OL. We had a decent series to start against Dallas, and then Thomas went down. So the OL play went from barely functional in 2022, to somewhat unknown in 2023, especially with a rookie center, with a team that was clearly underprepared for the season... to an absolute disaster after Thomas went down in the first series.
I think the first 1/2 of the season without Thomas cannot be overstated, and in fact I feel like it is something that not enough BBI'ers give enough credence to on the effect it had on the Giants last year. And the defense those first few games... oopha. The lack of preparation I guess, but it's baffling how bad our defense was the 1st half of the year. The tackling was absurdly atrocious. It's on Wink but it has to all of that fall back onto the head coach ultimately. Again, Last year really soured me on Daboll... I think he can learn from the scars and resurrect, but it's a big ? no doubt.
1. Systems/system fit/overall strategy.
-Are the systems modern and up-to-date? Are there innovative concepts? Or are you Jason Garrett running curl routes non-stop?
-Are you maximizing the resources available? Is the system properly toggled to the players you have? For example, you can't coach Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow the same way. Are you playing Dexter Lawrence at defensive end or nose tackle? That type of stuff. I'd point to Belichick as a guy who excelled at this: the 2001, 2007, 2011, and 2015 (etc.) Patriot offenses were entirely different based on personnel.
2. Game management.
-Use of challenges/timeouts.
-Going for two and on fourth when appropriate.
-Are you rushing more against teams bad against the run and passing more against pass weak defenses? This is related to strategy above, but I'd differentiate it between overall strategy vs. week to week tactics.
3. Player selection/development. I actually think this is most important. Reid kind of sucks ass with in-game management and is one of the greatest coaches of all time.
My view is Daboll has done a great job of 1 and 2. The systems look good and getting that dogshit roster to the playoffs in 2022 was an incredible feat. Winning games with DeVito in 2023 was another example of Daboll maximizing some underwhelming resources.
However, I think he's been weak in player selection/development as NYG HC, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Neal is ass (so far), JMS is underwhelming (but too early). I like guys like Robinson and Hyatt, but it's hard to be confident that those guys are studs. So it's TBD. But this part is also the hardest to judge in the short-term and is also driven by luck.
The guys who have taken big steps and are the most promising under Daboll have been on the defensive side of the ball. Dex, Thibs, Banks, etc. How much credit do we give an offensive minded coach for that?
But to answer the question, I say yes, I think so. But that's not a high conviction yes--and I'm REALLY not confident that happens with NYG.
I believe the players in the building love him
I do not believe yelling in public is appropriate or as productive as it used to be. This kind of delivery requires winning in my opinion. It could get old and the roster is less than ideal.
When hiring a first time HC he needs to be able to fail so he can succeed.
Watching.
I like Brian a lot.
I am not sure where the line is drawn from offensive line was abysmal to just sucks -- but in the games Jones didn't start the team scored 18 PPG.
Given the quarterback group is post-ACL Jones, Lock, and DeVito (and no Barkley) -- is it likely the offensive is good enough to buoy them from 18 to 21 PPG? I'd wager no.
I'll frame it this way, given where the roster is today, if I could upgrade one position to increase my odds of equalling 21 PPG, it would be quarterback.
there is no button anyone can press to find a better QB or else everyone would press it. including any rookies no matter how highly selected (look at bryce last year).
jones, lock, devito are what they are so i would expect something approximating the of level qb play we saw in 2022 + back half 2023 even if they draft a rookie and that rookie starts.
the job of the head coach is to make the team functional with whatever players they have - as they were in 2022 with jones, as they were back half of 2023 with 2 backups, as the bills were in 2019 with pre-breakout josh allen and in 2018 when tyrod was bad enough they benched him for rookie nathan peterman.
with any reasonable expectation of a rookie QB, the path to improvement is with Bricillo getting solid OL play and Bowen coordinating an above average defense led by 2 multiple time pro bowlers on big contracts (lawrence, burns), 2 recent firsts that have worked out (thibs, burns), okereke + depth pieces. obviously hope to also add the next stroud or herbert but i dont think either of them alone would white knight anything any more than bryce was able to elevate carolina's dumpster fire bc it's a team sport. qb or OL/Defense is chicken or the egg.
1. Systems/system fit/overall strategy.
-Are the systems modern and up-to-date? Are there innovative concepts? Or are you Jason Garrett running curl routes non-stop?
-Are you maximizing the resources available? Is the system properly toggled to the players you have? For example, you can't coach Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow the same way. Are you playing Dexter Lawrence at defensive end or nose tackle? That type of stuff. I'd point to Belichick as a guy who excelled at this: the 2001, 2007, 2011, and 2015 (etc.) Patriot offenses were entirely different based on personnel.
2. Game management.
-Use of challenges/timeouts.
-Going for two and on fourth when appropriate.
-Are you rushing more against teams bad against the run and passing more against pass weak defenses? This is related to strategy above, but I'd differentiate it between overall strategy vs. week to week tactics.
3. Player selection/development. I actually think this is most important. Reid kind of sucks ass with in-game management and is one of the greatest coaches of all time.
My view is Daboll has done a great job of 1 and 2. The systems look good and getting that dogshit roster to the playoffs in 2022 was an incredible feat. Winning games with DeVito in 2023 was another example of Daboll maximizing some underwhelming resources.
However, I think he's been weak in player selection/development as NYG HC, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Neal is ass (so far), JMS is underwhelming (but too early). I like guys like Robinson and Hyatt, but it's hard to be confident that those guys are studs. So it's TBD. But this part is also the hardest to judge in the short-term and is also driven by luck.
The guys who have taken big steps and are the most promising under Daboll have been on the defensive side of the ball. Dex, Thibs, Banks, etc. How much credit do we give an offensive minded coach for that?
But to answer the question, I say yes, I think so. But that's not a high conviction yes--and I'm REALLY not confident that happens with NYG.
good post, agree with pretty much everything.
i feel pretty confident in dabolls offensive scheme and ability to get what he has out of the QB position.
not nearly as confident in the overall player development or ability to hire a great staff.
the only saving grace on player dev is that so many of the misses are OL so it's possible there was 1 really rotten apple. but until we see it fixed i agree, impossible to confidently trust it.
I don't think we can understate how important the read option and dynamics with Barkley were to Jones's efficiency in 2022.
Post-ACL/No Barkley Jones is a different beast, I think a far less dangerous one (if you can describe 2022 Jones as dangerous).
My guess is the quarterback play of Jones/Lock/DeVito over 17 games would be comfortably in the 18 PPG range today.
The Giants get to vote in a few weeks. They'll likely have a shot at the top offensive lineman, one of the top three WRs, or the 3rd/4th/5th QB. I hope they vote QB.
I don't think we can understate how important the read option and dynamics with Barkley were to Jones's efficiency in 2022.
Post-ACL/No Barkley Jones is a different beast, I think a far less dangerous one (if you can describe 2022 Jones as dangerous).
My guess is the quarterback play of Jones/Lock/DeVito over 17 games would be comfortably in the 18 PPG range today.
The Giants get to vote in a few weeks. They'll likely have a shot at the top offensive lineman, one of the top three WRs, or the 3rd/4th/5th QB. I hope they vote QB.
the closest you can get to a magic button is better coaching. they moved lawrence from the b gap to the a gap and he turned into an all pro. so a new defensive coordinator and a new OL coach is new hope in 2 spots that underperformed last year.
id also vote QB, im just saying it's not the magic elixir that solves or doesnt solve their problems. scoring 20 ppg isn't some unobtainable benchmark if they dont find the next cj stroud. as a matter of fact the colts averaged more points (23.3 ppg) than cj stroud's texans (22.2 ppg) last year despite a rookie coach, rawer rookie qb who was qb3 in the draft who got hurt a month in, their best player skipping camp and holding out for the first month, and a journeyman backup qb starting most of the year. team game, head coach is responsible for improving the whole team. certainly by year 3.
I don't think we can understate how important the read option and dynamics with Barkley were to Jones's efficiency in 2022.
Post-ACL/No Barkley Jones is a different beast, I think a far less dangerous one (if you can describe 2022 Jones as dangerous).
My guess is the quarterback play of Jones/Lock/DeVito over 17 games would be comfortably in the 18 PPG range today.
The Giants get to vote in a few weeks. They'll likely have a shot at the top offensive lineman, one of the top three WRs, or the 3rd/4th/5th QB. I hope they vote QB.
Not to get into a Barkley conversation, but I think the same can be same regarding Barkley’s 2018 season. Eli could audible in and out of good/bad situations for Barkely. Jones’ lack of reading a defense hindered Barkley’s effectiveness.
Anyway, yes. I still think Daboll can be a championship coach. Players like seem to like him.
Also, Patrick Graham sucks for totally misusing Dex.
re the first comment that's why houston was so aggressive for diggs despite the risks. that was their waller move, though diggs consistency/production is obviously on another planet.
re the bold, i think development is the thing people arent talking about but is actually the key to this regime winning/surviving. neal, jms, hyatt, wandale, thibs, riley, davidson, belton, flott, mcfadden, banks, mccloud, pinnock, hawkins, bellinger, etc. they obviously wont all make it but there need to be a few quality starters out of that group who make it to 2nd contracts here.
remember up until their 3rd season (2007) this draft class was a bust.
jacobs had 500 yards in 2 years backing up tiki, tuck had 1 career sack, webster was a total bust buried on bench. all 3 ended up core players on 2nd contracts.
Also, Patrick Graham sucks for totally misusing Dex.
obviously with dex it's 100% true, but in 2022 vegas blew some leads and i thought we had ended up with a big upgrade, this year wink tanks and graham's D was actually really good (9th in ppg) despite being a generally crappy team.
just a very year to year league. most teams are playing at the same general talent level on the field.
Also, I remain higher on Wink than others but think him and Graham are roughly in the same category: acceptable but flawed DC's. Certainly not elite but not Bill Sheridan either. Both were wildly overhyped after their first years (remember the article calling Graham the black Picasso, lol?). But the Dex mishap by Graham is a whopper.
Also, I remain higher on Wink than others but think him and Graham are roughly in the same category: acceptable but flawed DC's. Certainly not elite but not Bill Sheridan either. Both were wildly overhyped after their first years (remember the article calling Graham the black Picasso, lol?). But the Dex mishap by Graham is a whopper.
totally agree. i have no idea which category bowen is in, there is room for him to be an upgrade or a downgrade. or the same. there is just enough in his background to be cautiously hopeful but id feel better with a fangio or schwartz.
i think people read this as a cop out but end of day a head coach survives by making good decisions, and the coordinators are big ones. with what this franchise has gone through the last 10 years the OL coach was a big one. i think the DC hire and OL coach hire will end up impacting daboll's survival more than whoever they pick at #6.
Make no mistake, the 2023 NYG put some historically ugly play out there for all the world to see. Perennial loser franchise level ugly, and it must be stripped away. It all starts and ends with Davoli. First, let's see 2024 resemble 2022.
Yep. Painfully true but the first 7-8 weeks were way too similar to Mcadoo/Judge type play. Can't happen again in 24. It just can't. A bad month is one thing and even then it can't be that bad.
Was not impressed how unprepared the team was to play.
Season was over by the time the team turned the corner.
He should be embarrassed by the OL he put out....we can blame the OL coach....buts it's on hime....under his watch.
I share the concern about the lack of preparedness to start the season last year. Additionally, you have to figure Dabs had a part to play in the mis-evaluation of our O-Line depth last season, not to mention the shit show kick returner turned out to be. That said, I agree he got alot out of our QB's and I think he's got a great offensive mind. I think this next season will show us if he's made any adjustment to his evaluation and management style.
Over two years with Graham the Giants averaged 23.4 points against, in the two years with Martindale the Giants averaged 22.9.
Magic is something closer to averaging +5 more points YoY like the Texans did. Is that all attributable to Stroud? Of course not. And we'll see if it's sustainable.
Quarterback is a disproportionate contributor both to the success and perceived success of a head coach. If the 2024 resembles the 2023 season at QB, I think that's the most likely way Daboll loses his job.
it's not just on Daboll though, there is a shitload of coaches on an NFL team, but credit and blame starts with the HC.
I do think though that for me, no coach is "championship-level" until they are if you know what I mean.
And example of what I mean for QB's could be Peyton Manning. not sure how popular it was on here, I don't remember, especially the early days, but during his career there was rampant Brady vs Peyton debates in Boston.
Peyton had all the stats, Brady had all the rings (especially through the mid 2000's).
So it was:
- Peyton can't win outside the dome
- Peyton can't win in the playoffs
- Peyton can't win outside in the playoffs
- Peyton can't win a championship
and all those things were true, until they weren't.
So, for me with coaches I guess the same is true. Can Daboll win a championship? Sure, anyone is capable if everything breaks right, but is Daboll a "championship-level coach" - for me, no, not until he is a champion.
Maybe the other way is easier to look at it. At no time did I think Ben McAdoo or Pat Shurmur was a threat to win a championship.
Maybe the other way is easier to look at it. At no time did I think Ben McAdoo or Pat Shurmur was a threat to win a championship.
Or Joe Judge. lol.
Maybe the other way is easier to look at it. At no time did I think Ben McAdoo or Pat Shurmur was a threat to win a championship.
this is the way to look at it. after 2 years we arent sure he isn't the answer. that is actually significant progress.