"Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
this is wild
the easiest time to pass the ball is on 1st down
Daniel Jones ranked #48 of 48 QBs on 1st down efficiency (min 100 att in 2023)
just 30% of att were successful
NFL avg is 46%
a lot of it was sacks... ok...
BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE SACKS
he ranked #47 of 48 QBs
gross
even removing sacks, he was pressured a a high rate... ok...
BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ATTEMPTS UNDER PRESSURE
he ranked #47 of 48 QBs
only Bailey Zappe was worse"
But beyond this, THE PLAYERS know. We saw the first hints of that with Giants saying Saquon should have been paid before Daniel.
Now we have draft prospects bad-mouthing him in the media.
I saw a pundit yesterday just matter-of-factly state the obvious... "Daniel doesn't throw the ball down the field." What was the biggest difference between Taylor/DeVito and Jones? We all saw it. They took shots down the field. With the same cast of characters.
Then there is the whole injury thing, which may end this once and for all.
The problem? If the attitude that Schmeelk, Cross, and Dottino have permeates that building, holy shit.
That's where I was coming from. That venom or thought process is all over the board in case you haven't noticed.
It doesn’t matter ONE IOTA what Nabers or other players think, i.e. Thibs or opposing players etc. It doesn’t matter what you think or I think or what anyone on this board thinks either. Only thing that matters is what Shoen and Daboll thinks and we’ll find that out in a couple of weeks.
What Nabere thinks means dick.
Who cares.
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site has gone back and forth on Daniel Jones for years now. Those who like him will come up with something, those who don't like him will come up with something else.
But beyond this, THE PLAYERS know. We saw the first hints of that with Giants saying Saquon should have been paid before Daniel.
Now we have draft prospects bad-mouthing him in the media.
I saw a pundit yesterday just matter-of-factly state the obvious... "Daniel doesn't throw the ball down the field." What was the biggest difference between Taylor/DeVito and Jones? We all saw it. They took shots down the field. With the same cast of characters.
Then there is the whole injury thing, which may end this once and for all.
The problem? If the attitude that Schmeelk, Cross, and Dottino have permeates that building, holy shit.
But even Schoen is straight up saying that it is near impossible to evaluate a QB who's on his back because the OL can't keep him upright. As far as Barkley is concerned, I don't think its an indictment on Jones to say Saquon should have been paid first. It's a testimony to how the team feels about Saquon. I'm hard pressed to think of any player on 28 of the 32 teams in the league that deserved to be paid more than Barkley. 26 bled for us. He was 100% the best player on this team. OF COURSE he should've got paid before DJ. But we didn't pay him and I understand the reasons, even if it was pretty uncerimonious in the way it all went down. And DeVito and Taylor both had Thomas and JMS back with Saquon in the backfield. Daniel had that for 5 minutes this season and even then it was in a torrential downpour. Look... I am firmly on board with moving on from DJ because 6 years is a enough time to come to terms with the fact that it's time to shake the tree. But not at the expense of multiple draft picks across multiple drafts. And not at the cost of spending the 1.06 on a QB that, for all intents and purposes will be a consolation prize at that pick. DJ is not this horrible QB. I am sure he'll be more than serviceable in 2024 as long as he's healthy.
This is the new narrative of the Jones fans....."I'm okay with taking a QB, but none of these QB's and definitely not if it means we have to trade up!"
2. Danny Kannell sucked
3. Daniel Jones sucks
4. Malik Nabers thinks the Giants QB needs to be figured out - translation - NYG QB room sucks
5. Some think we need to go WR because trading draft picks for a new young QB will set us back years.
How did I do?
The actual interview--you make the call! - ( New Window )
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In comment 16466678 Four Aces said:
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In comment 16466287 mittenedman said:
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I'm not sure if it's people didn't actually play the game or what, but when a QB is getting the sh#t kicked out of him on a regular basis, everything goes to hell. (The internal clock is f#cked.)
It even happened to Eli Manning late in his career.
I'm beyond tired of this endless DJ debate - some factor in the dysfunction and bad supporting cast and some don't. Either way, we all know he's damaged goods and likely David Carr'd by now. Looks like he'll get one more chance to prove otherwise, but it'll likely be an audition for another team if the Giants can trade up for a QB.
We can all have our opinions on the guy, but one of the only facts we have is that the situation around him has been as bad as it gets in the NFL virtually his entire career. The one year things were semi-functional - 2022 - he looked solid. And even then - with a bad supporting cast.
+1
It’s amazing ppl conveniently minimize playing QB is a function of EVERYTHING around a QB. And DJ has had the absolute worst around him… bottom-ranked OL and WR corps. I can’t tell you how many I saw DJ throw a deep ball and hit Slayton RIGHT IN HIS HANDS and he dropped it. One I remember in the endzone. This idea of DJ being scared to throw deep or won’t throw deep is simplistic. The scheme changed in 2022 to protect a QB from a leaky line. And Daboll realized he didn’t necessarily have the personnel for a vertical passing attack. Slayton, Hodgins and James don’t scream vertical, deep passes combined with a poor pass blocking line.
In addition, DJ in 2023 was CLEARLY shell-shocked from a poorly- constructed OL that give DJ less than 2 seconds to do anything worthwhile after they lost Andrew Thomas.
Nothing is ever Daniel Jones' fault. It's always the people around him letting him down. Well, don't worry, you're getting year 6 of shitty Jones play! What will the excuse for him be this time?
Also, why didn't DeVito and Taylor have the same issues throwing down field if it's all because of the team and none of it becasue of Jones?
This has been addressed AD NAUSEAM… the OL Cutlets AND Taylor played with was NOT the same one DJ played with. Andrew Thomas AND JMS RETURNED to play with Cutlets and Taylor. And Barkley was OUT most of the games with DJ.
So let’s stick to the FACTS, what you and I feel about DJ are irrelevant. But don’t distort the FACTS to make poor arguments. And don’t forget the fact that the defensive lines and competition we faced early in the season wasn’t what Cutlets and Taylor faced.
Ok lets talk facts, JMS actually got worse as the season went on because he was playing through things, and you completely ignore the effect a QB has on line play. It's not a one way street. If the defense knows the QB only has one read and will not take chances down the field, they just pin their ears back on every snap. That's part of why the line got better, there was at least the threat of a deep throw when DeVito and Tyrod took over.
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Are we sure Jones is better?
He sure didnt have Saquon Barkley leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks And going 7-3
22 TDs. Rushing skills matter.
Jones has 13 career rush TDs and Sam Darnold has 12 career rush TDs. And thats with those 7 you boast of in 2 year. Jones benefited from a scheme for a little while.
As a Giants fan, I've never seen anything like it.
Been banging this drum for awhile. This fall could get ugly real quick.
This is the new narrative of the Jones fans....."I'm okay with taking a QB, but none of these QB's and definitely not if it means we have to trade up!"
I would put good money on it that there are many posters, even without the influence of sodium panthenol, that think Jones is just as talented as any of these QB prospects. And at worst, he's QB2.
I will say the "next year's QB class stinks" argument doesn't fly with me. Not always, but usually there is a QB or two who comes out of nowhere to make a class look better. Hell, Jayden Daniels wasn't supposed to be a first round guy.
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In comment 16466678 Four Aces said:
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In comment 16466287 mittenedman said:
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I'm not sure if it's people didn't actually play the game or what, but when a QB is getting the sh#t kicked out of him on a regular basis, everything goes to hell. (The internal clock is f#cked.)
It even happened to Eli Manning late in his career.
I'm beyond tired of this endless DJ debate - some factor in the dysfunction and bad supporting cast and some don't. Either way, we all know he's damaged goods and likely David Carr'd by now. Looks like he'll get one more chance to prove otherwise, but it'll likely be an audition for another team if the Giants can trade up for a QB.
We can all have our opinions on the guy, but one of the only facts we have is that the situation around him has been as bad as it gets in the NFL virtually his entire career. The one year things were semi-functional - 2022 - he looked solid. And even then - with a bad supporting cast.
+1
It’s amazing ppl conveniently minimize playing QB is a function of EVERYTHING around a QB. And DJ has had the absolute worst around him… bottom-ranked OL and WR corps. I can’t tell you how many I saw DJ throw a deep ball and hit Slayton RIGHT IN HIS HANDS and he dropped it. One I remember in the endzone. This idea of DJ being scared to throw deep or won’t throw deep is simplistic. The scheme changed in 2022 to protect a QB from a leaky line. And Daboll realized he didn’t necessarily have the personnel for a vertical passing attack. Slayton, Hodgins and James don’t scream vertical, deep passes combined with a poor pass blocking line.
In addition, DJ in 2023 was CLEARLY shell-shocked from a poorly- constructed OL that give DJ less than 2 seconds to do anything worthwhile after they lost Andrew Thomas.
Now explain the other 3 seasons.
OLine, weapons (cnveniently leaving out Barkley in 2022 who was more important and better), shell shocked. What else? Temperature in the locker room not right?
He's been the one constant over 5 seasons with a bad offense. Maybe he's the problem? Maybe its as simple as he's not a good QB?
There’s been a lot of constants…. DJ, poor OL, subpar WRs and TEs. This offense doesn’t scare anyone.
He's been the one constant over 5 seasons. Different coaches and players. At some point you need to score points and produce touchdowns. He doesn't do it.
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Just wait until this teams season is over in October, the team scores 17 pts ppg at best and people realize there is just Lock and a mid-round rookie project and its not a QB draft in 2025.
Been banging this drum for awhile. This fall could get ugly real quick.
I've been banging this drum for awhile. It's going to get really really dark. That's why I'm not sure Schoen/Daboll survive it if Jones sucks (or gets injured and kicks in his guarantee) and the team wins 6 games or less again.
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Just wait until this teams season is over in October, the team scores 17 pts ppg at best and people realize there is just Lock and a mid-round rookie project and its not a QB draft in 2025.
I will say the "next year's QB class stinks" argument doesn't fly with me. Not always, but usually there is a QB or two who comes out of nowhere to make a class look better. Hell, Jayden Daniels wasn't supposed to be a first round guy.
This is exactly right.
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It’s entirely possible Nabers has an opinion on Jones. And if we draft him, I suspect he’ll reach out to his buddies in the NFL and I doubt the reviews will be glowing.
Did you watch the video I linked?
Yes. And how does that refute what I said?
First of all, the names I listed are NOT cautious in their defense. Zealous is a more apt description.
Secondly, to whatever degree you do believe that their defense of DJ is cautious in tone, maybe that's because he mostly sucks and there isn't an authentic or genuine defense to be made.
If someone at your job consistently underperformed for five years, and also was often on FMLA leave during that time, how long do you think they'd get away with your boss laying the blame for the underperforming employee entirely at the feet of his colleagues and never him?
What do you think a defense of that absentee underachiever would look like?
Our QB situation is LITERALLY a joke.
SF, Sea and Miami games were a historic level of poor RB production. Teams had little concern with the run game (for good reason). Tynes said the SF game was the worst RB rushing day in 30 years. Miami and Sea were not much better.
I wouldn't expect much from just about every QB in those games with the state of the OL and skill group.
Thanks in advance.
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In comment 16466823 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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It’s entirely possible Nabers has an opinion on Jones. And if we draft him, I suspect he’ll reach out to his buddies in the NFL and I doubt the reviews will be glowing.
Did you watch the video I linked?
Yes. And how does that refute what I said?
The point is: you couldn't refute what I said, but instead of saying, "yeah, that was really uncool of them to pull his comment out of context to make it look like he was being critical of Jones," you directed a pointless and irrelevant comment my way.
Thanks in advance.
Perhaps. But it is in line with all his other stats in 2023, which are all terrible and near bottom of the league.
SF, Sea and Miami games were a historic level of poor RB production. Teams had little concern with the run game (for good reason). Tynes said the SF game was the worst RB rushing day in 30 years. Miami and Sea were not much better.
I wouldn't expect much from just about every QB in those games with the state of the OL and skill group.
Ah. The ole “everybody else’s fault” routine. It never gets old. Daniel Jones has had the worst luck of any QB in the history of the league. Poor guy
Those numbers are freakishly bad.
At this point I don't care why Don't know why anybody else does.
More than 10 backup quarterbacks were better than he was.
Time to move on.
Jones was sacked 44 times in 22 and 45 in 20. He won a playoff game in 2022 despite lousy players around him. You can't minimize that.
His biggest question mark after his health is his ability to stand in the pocket and get a good throw off when he's about to be hit by the rush. He didn't look good at that last year.
But Eli was sacked over 39 times only once, 47 in 2018. That was Barkley's rookie season. Beckham played only 12 games but put up over 1000 yards. And the team record was 5-11. Pass protection still matters.
Jones deserves the right to play himself out of starting, if his health is even good enough. No regrets if he can't do it next season.
Several times.
rank Player team conv perc
1 Brock Purdy 41.2%
2 Patrick Mahomes 38.6%
3 C.J. Stroud 38.1%
4 Dak Prescott 37.7%
5 Josh Allen 37.3%
6 Matthew Stafford 37.3%
7 Tua Tagovailoa 37.0%
8 Deshaun Watson 37.0%
9 Kirk Cousins 36.8%
10 Lamar Jackson 36.6%
11 Marcus Mariota 36.3%
12 Aaron Rodgers 36.1%
13 Joe Burrow 36.1%
14 Jalen Hurts 35.9%
15 Anthony Richardson 35.8%
16 Tyson Bagent 35.5%
17 Jordan Love 35.4%
18 Justin Herbert 35.2%
19 Jared Goff 35.1%
20 Geno Smith 34.7%
21 Derek Carr 34.6%
22 Jacoby Brissett 34.4%
23 Russell Wilson 34.1%
24 Kyler Murray 33.7%
25 Baker Mayfield 33.7%
26 Daniel Jones nyg 33.1%
27 Jarrett Stidham den 32.8%
28 Trevor Lawrence jax 32.4%
29 Sam Darnold min 32.2%
30 Aidan O'Connell lvr 31.7%
31 Will Levis ten 31.4%
32 Bryce Young car 26.7%
avg 35.1%
std 2.7%
mean 35.0%
He is not the worst and he is not an outlier (per 1 std dev). The Giants should draft a QB as they should have been doing over the years. I prefer a WR in round 1 and then a QB later. No trade ups for a QB. Over the last 10 years not a single team that had a non-winning record the prior season that traded up for a QB in the first 3 rounds had success with that QB. Let the draft come to you.
I will say the "next year's QB class stinks" argument doesn't fly with me. Not always, but usually there is a QB or two who comes out of nowhere to make a class look better. Hell, Jayden Daniels wasn't supposed to be a first round guy.
Earlier this week, I believe Sy said he thought there a few QBs in the 2025 class he previewed to be in 80-85 range...I believe.
The potential huge prize is Jalen Milroe. If he can further fine tune his passing, he's got high level dual threat tools.
rank Player team conv perc
1 Brock Purdy 41.2%
2 Patrick Mahomes 38.6%
3 C.J. Stroud 38.1%
4 Dak Prescott 37.7%
5 Josh Allen 37.3%
6 Matthew Stafford 37.3%
7 Tua Tagovailoa 37.0%
8 Deshaun Watson 37.0%
9 Kirk Cousins 36.8%
10 Lamar Jackson 36.6%
11 Marcus Mariota 36.3%
12 Aaron Rodgers 36.1%
13 Joe Burrow 36.1%
14 Jalen Hurts 35.9%
15 Anthony Richardson 35.8%
16 Tyson Bagent 35.5%
17 Jordan Love 35.4%
18 Justin Herbert 35.2%
19 Jared Goff 35.1%
20 Geno Smith 34.7%
21 Derek Carr 34.6%
22 Jacoby Brissett 34.4%
23 Russell Wilson 34.1%
24 Kyler Murray 33.7%
25 Baker Mayfield 33.7%
26 Daniel Jones nyg 33.1%
27 Jarrett Stidham den 32.8%
28 Trevor Lawrence jax 32.4%
29 Sam Darnold min 32.2%
30 Aidan O'Connell lvr 31.7%
31 Will Levis ten 31.4%
32 Bryce Young car 26.7%
avg 35.1%
std 2.7%
mean 35.0%
He is not the worst and he is not an outlier (per 1 std dev). The Giants should draft a QB as they should have been doing over the years. I prefer a WR in round 1 and then a QB later. No trade ups for a QB. Over the last 10 years not a single team that had a non-winning record the prior season that traded up for a QB in the first 3 rounds had success with that QB. Let the draft come to you.
This is converting a new first down, regardless of the down currently being played or the play being run (as you note, it's agnostic to run/pass).
That's a fundamentally different stat than having a successful passing play on first down (contextualized here by the source itself as the easiest down to successfully pass) specifically.
What you're presenting is also interesting and not at all favorable for DJ, but it's just a different stat entirely.
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Here are the slated starting QBs (per Ourlads) ranked by 1st down conversion % for all downs (including pass/rush) for years 2019 to 2023. (Italicized are one standard deviation from the mean.)
rank Player team conv perc
1 Brock Purdy 41.2%
2 Patrick Mahomes 38.6%
3 C.J. Stroud 38.1%
4 Dak Prescott 37.7%
5 Josh Allen 37.3%
6 Matthew Stafford 37.3%
7 Tua Tagovailoa 37.0%
8 Deshaun Watson 37.0%
9 Kirk Cousins 36.8%
10 Lamar Jackson 36.6%
11 Marcus Mariota 36.3%
12 Aaron Rodgers 36.1%
13 Joe Burrow 36.1%
14 Jalen Hurts 35.9%
15 Anthony Richardson 35.8%
16 Tyson Bagent 35.5%
17 Jordan Love 35.4%
18 Justin Herbert 35.2%
19 Jared Goff 35.1%
20 Geno Smith 34.7%
21 Derek Carr 34.6%
22 Jacoby Brissett 34.4%
23 Russell Wilson 34.1%
24 Kyler Murray 33.7%
25 Baker Mayfield 33.7%
26 Daniel Jones nyg 33.1%
27 Jarrett Stidham den 32.8%
28 Trevor Lawrence jax 32.4%
29 Sam Darnold min 32.2%
30 Aidan O'Connell lvr 31.7%
31 Will Levis ten 31.4%
32 Bryce Young car 26.7%
avg 35.1%
std 2.7%
mean 35.0%
He is not the worst and he is not an outlier (per 1 std dev). The Giants should draft a QB as they should have been doing over the years. I prefer a WR in round 1 and then a QB later. No trade ups for a QB. Over the last 10 years not a single team that had a non-winning record the prior season that traded up for a QB in the first 3 rounds had success with that QB. Let the draft come to you.
This is converting a new first down, regardless of the down currently being played or the play being run (as you note, it's agnostic to run/pass).
That's a fundamentally different stat than having a successful passing play on first down (contextualized here by the source itself as the easiest down to successfully pass) specifically.
What you're presenting is also interesting and not at all favorable for DJ, but it's just a different stat entirely.
What I find most interesting about this stat has less to do with the mean or the std dev and more to do with a very basic, common sense benchmark: any QB whose percentage here is less than 33.33...% is more likely on any given series to go three-and-out than he is to gain a first down.
Even if we draft a QB he’s probably your day 1 starter.
Jones was sacked 44 times in 22 and 45 in 20. He won a playoff game in 2022 despite lousy players around him. You can't minimize that.
His biggest question mark after his health is his ability to stand in the pocket and get a good throw off when he's about to be hit by the rush. He didn't look good at that last year.
But Eli was sacked over 39 times only once, 47 in 2018. That was Barkley's rookie season. Beckham played only 12 games but put up over 1000 yards. And the team record was 5-11. Pass protection still matters.
Jones deserves the right to play himself out of starting, if his health is even good enough. No regrets if he can't do it next season.
“Deserves the right to play himself out of starting”. Can’t make this shit up. Eric is right, the loyalty to Jones among some in this fan base is insane
And that he is just posting like a psycho because “the other side” (despite everyone being on the same side) is always posting like psychos so he is just holding up a mirror, I guess?
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did not give Jones a good excuse for sucking in five of six games probably also believe that in the Ukrainian War the Ukrainians have had 31,000 killed and the Russians 331,000.
Jones was sacked 44 times in 22 and 45 in 20. He won a playoff game in 2022 despite lousy players around him. You can't minimize that.
His biggest question mark after his health is his ability to stand in the pocket and get a good throw off when he's about to be hit by the rush. He didn't look good at that last year.
But Eli was sacked over 39 times only once, 47 in 2018. That was Barkley's rookie season. Beckham played only 12 games but put up over 1000 yards. And the team record was 5-11. Pass protection still matters.
Jones deserves the right to play himself out of starting, if his health is even good enough. No regrets if he can't do it next season.
“Deserves the right to play himself out of starting”. Can’t make this shit up. Eric is right, the loyalty to Jones among some in this fan base is insane
It is insane. Jones *deserves* nothing. He already got $100M. And after signing that contract he went out and played like the 32nd best QB in the league. He was outplayed by an undrafted rookie free agent who lives with his parents. Some people are just afraid of change.
Even if we draft a QB he’s probably your day 1 starter.
Nobody hates Daniel Jones, he’s just not good. And the Giants don’t need people to root for them to lose, they’ve had the worst record in the NFC with Jones at the helm, they lose plenty on their own
Jones 'deserves the right'...? To parrot what Eric said earlier on this thread & something I've articulated before too...I have never-NEVER!-seen so devotion to a mediocre @ best-AT BEST-Giant. It is a fucking cult. I don't know how else to put it.
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In comment 16466881 Reese's Pieces said:
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did not give Jones a good excuse for sucking in five of six games probably also believe that in the Ukrainian War the Ukrainians have had 31,000 killed and the Russians 331,000.
Jones was sacked 44 times in 22 and 45 in 20. He won a playoff game in 2022 despite lousy players around him. You can't minimize that.
His biggest question mark after his health is his ability to stand in the pocket and get a good throw off when he's about to be hit by the rush. He didn't look good at that last year.
But Eli was sacked over 39 times only once, 47 in 2018. That was Barkley's rookie season. Beckham played only 12 games but put up over 1000 yards. And the team record was 5-11. Pass protection still matters.
Jones deserves the right to play himself out of starting, if his health is even good enough. No regrets if he can't do it next season.
“Deserves the right to play himself out of starting”. Can’t make this shit up. Eric is right, the loyalty to Jones among some in this fan base is insane
It is insane. Jones *deserves* nothing. He already got $100M. And after signing that contract he went out and played like the 32nd best QB in the league. He was outplayed by an undrafted rookie free agent who lives with his parents. Some people are just afraid of change.
Aside: i saw someone wearing a Tommy Cutlets hoodie last night and it gave me a good chuckle
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Just wait until this teams season is over in October, the team scores 17 pts ppg at best and people realize there is just Lock and a mid-round rookie project and its not a QB draft in 2025.
I will say the "next year's QB class stinks" argument doesn't fly with me. Not always, but usually there is a QB or two who comes out of nowhere to make a class look better. Hell, Jayden Daniels wasn't supposed to be a first round guy.
And if they are picking 6th in a 3QB draft again?
Will everyone who says “you can’t force the pick” be ok not forcing the pick again in 2025 and seeing what 2026 has to offer? 2027?
At some point you need to try to solve a problem instead of waiting for the solution to find you.
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In comment 16466820 HardTruth said:
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Just wait until this teams season is over in October, the team scores 17 pts ppg at best and people realize there is just Lock and a mid-round rookie project and its not a QB draft in 2025.
I will say the "next year's QB class stinks" argument doesn't fly with me. Not always, but usually there is a QB or two who comes out of nowhere to make a class look better. Hell, Jayden Daniels wasn't supposed to be a first round guy.
And if they are picking 6th in a 3QB draft again?
Will everyone who says “you can’t force the pick” be ok not forcing the pick again in 2025 and seeing what 2026 has to offer? 2027?
At some point you need to try to solve a problem instead of waiting for the solution to find you.
+ Infinity
Wife-who hates this website with every fiber of her being, Haha-asked me if Jones is polarizing on BBI. I responded, 'Not really. Most everyone wants to move on, but there are some Japanese like holdouts post WWII who will be fighting on Jones' behalf until the mid 2030s.'