I have been pushing this approach for weeks and Eric brought it up on a separate thread this morning...
So lets hash this out...
Are you for this or against it.
What is your best/most likely scenario, if it does occur?
Do you mean trading back to the 10-14 range and then trading down again to the 20's?
If so it's an interesting idea because this roster has more holes than a piece of swiss cheese but you always need a partner to dance in a draft trade.
If we moved down to the mid-20's, grabbed Penix plus came out with an extra two firsts next year or an extra first and two seconds that could be appealing.
The problem is you can't predict that late what will happen.
At 6, you know at least that the Giants have run every scenario and are confident on one of 6 guys to pick.
Trading out of an elite prospect tier is usually never worth it.
The idea that teams should trade down because they get more picks to fill a bunch of holes on the roster is nonsense.
Look at safety or corner, for example…giants could sign a vet FA or CB right now for close to league min and that guy will very likely outperform a rookie, especially a rookie 2nd or 3rd round pick. The Ravens signed Clowney and Van Noy for dirt cheap last year…
Don't trade down for the sake of simply trading down.
However, if teams offer really good deals, I think Schoen needs to listen. This can actually play into the need to address the QB position either this year or next year. Right now, the Giants are caught in no-man's land with this QB class. So they have to maneuver this year or next to get one.
I think there are a ton of players in the latter half of the first round upper half of the second round who could start for the Giants. Also, draft capital for next year can help them trade up for the QB if necessary.
It depends on the offer. If a team makes an extremely generous offer,
Their first two round picks plus something next year - I would entertain it. You can draft a Brian Thomas at 11 and then possibly a Nix or Penix with the other late first. Not my dream scenario for QB but it is at least gives you two choices of position of need.
moving back and getting picks in next year's draft so we can try to get the QB we want next year. Has to be good value, though. You'd think that these stud WRs would also have folks who want to move up to pick them.
Their first two round picks plus something next year - I would entertain it. You can draft a Brian Thomas at 11 and then possibly a Nix or Penix with the other late first. Not my dream scenario for QB but it is at least gives you two choices of position of need.
If the Giants can't get or don't like Maye and McCarthy, the Giants have to maneuver to land Penix or Nix, or punt on the QB spot until 2025.
Barring that, the Giants are stuck with Jones.
I would only trade down as we could still get an elite talent
I am not a fan of lower first round picks and lots of seconds and thirds because you increase the likelihood that you miss out on the elite talent than can change a game.
I am a Penix fan so I would not mind moving back in the first if we can get him plus some other picks to improve the team around him, but if we don't come out of this draft with a QB we have to come away with enough ammunition to get one next year. The QB problem isn't getting better with the room we have now.
That the draft is a total crapshoot and the smartest way to go is to acquire as many Day Two picks as possible, even at the expense of having a Top Ten pick on Day One.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
This draft feels somewhat top heavy. Stay and pick and get a blue chip player in a high value position of need. That is right there for them, should they choose.
The other side of it is, becuase of the value of players where they are picking, there may be offers from team looking to deal into that, and the fact that they may be outside of the perimeter for the top 4 QBs, they could be open to listening.
My guess is that if they trade back, there's a good chance the deal includes assets that would help them in securing their QB in next year's draft.
That the draft is a total crapshoot and the smartest way to go is to acquire as many Day Two picks as possible, even at the expense of having a Top Ten pick on Day One.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
The three WRs seem relatively "safe bets."
However, the quarterbacks are not. And yet the Giants need one. If they trade up for McCarthy, have fewer picks, and McCarthy isn't a stud. Oh boy. This is a really dangerous time for the franchise.
That the draft is a total crapshoot and the smartest way to go is to acquire as many Day Two picks as possible, even at the expense of having a Top Ten pick on Day One.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
Exactly this!!
When I run my mocks and allow myself to trade to mid round then again to the end of the 1st...
I am blown away with just how many top 50 -75 picks I wind up with.
Or as Eric put it...perhaps draft capital for next years QB chase.
If you go strictly off the media ratings and BBI views, the
answer is no … but we have no idea of Schabs’ actual ranking. If you trust their process, and their assessment of current haves vs needs, then it may be in play… As Eric says, its all about value.
1. Draft goes Williams, Daniels, Maye, MHJ, Alt.
2. Giants are up at 6 and could easily take Odunze or Nabers here, but one of the 10-14 teams offer their pick, 2nd rounder in 2024, and a 1st rounder in 2025.
3. I do that trade, because there's a lot of optimism that one of the receivers will be there in that range. You could also draft the best cornerback in the draft, one of the best OTs, or even add to the Edge room.
4. You then shift to WR with one of the 2nd round picks.
5. You have what would likely be a very high 1st round pick along with your own pick for 2025, to shift to QB if necessary
Bottom line is you make the team a LOT better with a trade down, you have more darts at the board for draft capital, and you set yourself up even further in the 2025 draft.
Bottom line is you make the team a LOT better with a trade down, you have more darts at the board for draft capital, and you set yourself up even further in the 2025 draft.
The negative is that you punt on the QB.
Or you take the second tier QB with one of the trade down picks.
Years ago they traded out of high round picks to get future year picks- then would have multiple 1st or 2nd rounders- and if the pick came around and someone gave them a good offer and there wasn't a "must have" player on their board, they kept trading the current picks for future picks to give themselves flexibility.
That should be the model for the current Giants.
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
Just last year, Carolina traded a huge haul away to draft Young- and the team wasn't ready. The Texans had a good plan and were ready for Stroud. I don't think the gap between Young and Stroud is as great as the performance gap last year- but the Panthers wasted a year of cheap QB time wallowing in mediocrity. They will waste this season too. By the team they are even potentially turning things around, they will be facing an expensive decision on whether to extend him or not- and who knows where Young will be physically or mentally by that point.
Trade down, get picks for the future and day 2 picks. Someone will be desperate for the top WR after Harrison and Nabors.
However, you have to be smart- don't trade down 15-20 spots at once. Do it in increments so you build the value of those trades for a team who desperately wants a player. At some point, the trade offers won't be worth continuing to move down and that's when you use your pick.
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where the Giants get someone's 1st next year, maybe a 2nd or 3rd too- while also accumulating a number of day 2 picks this year and and several more day 3 picks to try and get some depth and assets to coach up.
Sure, the Giants would NOT end up with a "premium" player- but instead they could accumulate several high end starter caliber players on a team that needs help everywhere except maybe at MIKE and DT.
If you have multiple 1st rounders and day 2 picks in 2025 and you have added multiple upgrades in the 2024 draft and 2025 FA, you are then in a position to look at moving up to get the QB. If there isn't a QB worth draft in 2025, you move the assets down the road to 2026.
1. Draft goes Williams, Daniels, Maye, MHJ, Alt.
2. Giants are up at 6 and could easily take Odunze or Nabers here, but one of the 10-14 teams offer their pick, 2nd rounder in 2024, and a 1st rounder in 2025.
3. I do that trade, because there's a lot of optimism that one of the receivers will be there in that range. You could also draft the best cornerback in the draft, one of the best OTs, or even add to the Edge room.
4. You then shift to WR with one of the 2nd round picks.
5. You have what would likely be a very high 1st round pick along with your own pick for 2025, to shift to QB if necessary
Extrapolate yourtrade to the 10-14 range...by offering that pick to someone say at 27...you wind up with even more currency.
Plus you may even have a shot at Penix or Nix
It is likely a trade down offer would reduce the draft capital this year to add draft capital next year.
Are Schoen and Daboll secure enough in their positions to forego an elite WR prospect or top 4 QB prospect to stock the cupboard with future picks?
If this season is similar to last season, these future picks may be made by their replacements.
If four QBs go before #6, the Giants will have the #2 non-QB available to them. I want way more than normal or I'm not doing the deal.
In the interest of self-preservation, I would expect Schoen and Daboll to take a QB, if any of the top 4 are available at #6. It would also make sense to borrow future draft assets to move up if possible to take they QB they prefer. This seems to align with rumors that have been floated on this site.
If the QBs are gone, I agree this may be a unique situation, since we do not really have a precedent for 4 QBs in the top 5. I think the Waddle trade at least provides a benchmark, given the draft slot and position. It is debatable whether or not Nabers / Odunze are more valuable prospects than Waddle was at the time.
Have no inside knowledge, but if I were making the decision I would be thinking:
Plan A: QB and trade up if possible and I had a strong preference.
Plan B: Trade down if blown away by a package that added current and future draft capital (i.e. throw away the trade value charts and fleece a team desperate for a playmaker).
Plan C: Take your pick of the remaining WRs and try to get through the season with Lock and DJ (if healthy).
Plan B gives you some ammo to either trade back up for the next tier of QB or punt to next year.
Plan C leaves QB as a glaring question mark going forward, barring a surprise later round pick hitting.
Years ago they traded out of high round picks to get future year picks- then would have multiple 1st or 2nd rounders- and if the pick came around and someone gave them a good offer and there wasn't a "must have" player on their board, they kept trading the current picks for future picks to give themselves flexibility.
That should be the model for the current Giants.
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
Just last year, Carolina traded a huge haul away to draft Young- and the team wasn't ready. The Texans had a good plan and were ready for Stroud. I don't think the gap between Young and Stroud is as great as the performance gap last year- but the Panthers wasted a year of cheap QB time wallowing in mediocrity. They will waste this season too. By the team they are even potentially turning things around, they will be facing an expensive decision on whether to extend him or not- and who knows where Young will be physically or mentally by that point.
Trade down, get picks for the future and day 2 picks. Someone will be desperate for the top WR after Harrison and Nabors.
However, you have to be smart- don't trade down 15-20 spots at once. Do it in increments so you build the value of those trades for a team who desperately wants a player. At some point, the trade offers won't be worth continuing to move down and that's when you use your pick.
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where the Giants get someone's 1st next year, maybe a 2nd or 3rd too- while also accumulating a number of day 2 picks this year and and several more day 3 picks to try and get some depth and assets to coach up.
Sure, the Giants would NOT end up with a "premium" player- but instead they could accumulate several high end starter caliber players on a team that needs help everywhere except maybe at MIKE and DT.
If you have multiple 1st rounders and day 2 picks in 2025 and you have added multiple upgrades in the 2024 draft and 2025 FA, you are then in a position to look at moving up to get the QB. If there isn't a QB worth draft in 2025, you move the assets down the road to 2026.
but it still requires picking the right players. I don't like the idea of passing on potential impact players in round 1 unless you think you will still get one. The more good players you add the better. 2025 first rounder would be good if they still need to address QB.
Load up on those Michigan players....just kidding.
RE: It depends on the offer. If a team makes an extremely generous offer,
That you punt on the QB this year but you acquire enough to get one next year. The problem with this is -- you are probably not going to be in the running to get a top tier QB because the Giants won't be "awful/ 4 wins or less) - so they will be out of reach vs a supposed weak QB class.
If they don't get a QB - and they pass on one of Penix/Nix (and Fields they didn't go after) that does wel lwhile the Giants continue to be a 6/7 win team - then it's time to move on from JS.
Their first two round picks plus something next year - I would entertain it. You can draft a Brian Thomas at 11 and then possibly a Nix or Penix with the other late first. Not my dream scenario for QB but it is at least gives you two choices of position of need.
If the Giants can't get or don't like Maye and McCarthy, the Giants have to maneuver to land Penix or Nix, or punt on the QB spot until 2025.
Barring that, the Giants are stuck with Jones.
I suppose it comes down to how they assess Penix or Nix. If they don't think either one is capable of being "the guy" long term, I'd rather fill other holes, go with DJ or Lock next year, and assess the 2025 class. After reading and listening to the QB evaluations, I don't have a clue on Penix or Nix. I just hope Schoen and Daboll will make the right call.
Kill the "hotseat" speculation, tell Schoen and Daboll to make decisions based on what they believe is in the long-term best interests of the franchise and that they will have enough time and support to see their plan through. "No QB mandates involving DJ or the draft. No must win X amount of games next season. Follow your convictions. Be bold. Be strategic. Whatever. Trust yourselves." The constant churning hasn't worked.
Kill the "hotseat" speculation, tell Schoen and Daboll to make decisions based on what they believe is in the long-term best interests of the franchise and that they will have enough time and support to see their plan through. "No QB mandates involving DJ or the draft. No must win X amount of games next season. Follow your convictions. Be bold. Be strategic. Whatever. Trust yourselves." The constant churning hasn't worked.
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
I like the idea of trade down - but I like it most to get a QB if the Giants highly value one of them. SO, I wouldn't say some of that push hard for a QB are QB at any cost" but maybe close to it.
As far how far away the Giants are-- they are extremely far away until they find a QB. So, as you propose more picks, quite a few will be in 2024, correct? As a result, the team won't be pathetic if you drafted well. And what was the reason for getting the OL this year and getting Burns? It was to be better.
SO even though you aren't a contender, what makes you think you will have the assets to move up to a WILLING team? The teams that suck more than likely need the QB.
As for being "unprepared" to take a QB - when do you know they have it? Them getting two FA probable starters along with this upcoming draft, why does it have to be lousy this year assuming our schedule is also going to stink? And they can draft another OL or two this year.
The point is some of us believe that there are people that will always find an excuse to not take a QB. They are risk adverse. QB's are generally not taken in rd 1 because of "value." And generally on here there is a lot of "Always draft BPA."
Their first two round picks plus something next year - I would entertain it. You can draft a Brian Thomas at 11 and then possibly a Nix or Penix with the other late first. Not my dream scenario for QB but it is at least gives you two choices of position of need.
for Minny’s 11 and 23. I think one of the MHJ/Nabers/Rome troika will make it to that spot, then look for Penix at 23. Unlikely, I know, but a guy can dream.
I like the trade where Minn gets 6 for their two picks
Don't trade down for the sake of simply trading down.
However, if teams offer really good deals, I think Schoen needs to listen. This can actually play into the need to address the QB position either this year or next year. Right now, the Giants are caught in no-man's land with this QB class. So they have to maneuver this year or next to get one.
I think there are a ton of players in the latter half of the first round upper half of the second round who could start for the Giants. Also, draft capital for next year can help them trade up for the QB if necessary.
There will be multiple offers on the table.
Minn,Den,Pitt all will be chomping
Minn for their 2 1st +
Den for 1st,2nd,maybe 2 3rds
Pitt-a shit ton
So you think JJM is trash but multiple teams will want to trade up for him?
Thats precisely what I am saying...take advantage of the irrational QB mania that goes on every year now
If JJM doesn't go top 3, I think he slips to 6 and I don't see any team trading a haul for him personally. Vikings supposedly have Penix at 11 as their backup option. Broncos are going to trade all their precious picks and future picks when they haven't had any for years? Raiders with their need for a tackle and cb being bigger than their need for qb with O'Connell and Minshew are going to trade a king's ransom for JJM? Steelers with Russ and Fields are going to make a massive moveup from 20 to get JJM? I don't think so.
RE: RE: It depends on the offer. If a team makes an extremely generous offer,
Is there is a QB that the Giants don’t want and maybe a team that wants a QB trades up and the Giants still land one of the WRs. So it goes 3 QBs, Wr, OT then the Giants trade down with Minn so a QB is taken. Tenn takes an OT at 7, Atl takes an OT at 8, Bears take a WR, jets take a pass rusher Giants take a WR and also get the Minn pick at 23 to get another player.
The Giants can’t afford to trade back too far to get an elite player. We need to be able to score points.
May end up being a very profitable pick for the Giants.
Franchises generally don't just pick the next available QB without some conviction. To say well JJ is there so it's an obvious pick even though we wanted Maye who was picked #2 is not reality.
If the Giants have them close then maybe, but the QB is the face of the team and the most important position. It is not a position you draft with just anyone sitting there.
Assuming we want to go QB and our guy is not there we could have the Vikings, Raiders, Broncos and maybe even Pittsburg giving us a call for #6 to get their QB. We might also be getting calls from the Titans, Atlanta, and the Jets for an OT.
If we just go tier 2 later in the first because we have some conviction there then I go Nix, and not Penix because I believe a righty QB is better for this team with Neal as our RT.
With Neal at RT we might as well have Penix hike the ball from his back and save some injury concerns on the sack he'd otherwise take.
If so it's an interesting idea because this roster has more holes than a piece of swiss cheese but you always need a partner to dance in a draft trade.
If we moved down to the mid-20's, grabbed Penix plus came out with an extra two firsts next year or an extra first and two seconds that could be appealing.
The problem is you can't predict that late what will happen.
At 6, you know at least that the Giants have run every scenario and are confident on one of 6 guys to pick.
The idea that teams should trade down because they get more picks to fill a bunch of holes on the roster is nonsense.
Look at safety or corner, for example…giants could sign a vet FA or CB right now for close to league min and that guy will very likely outperform a rookie, especially a rookie 2nd or 3rd round pick. The Ravens signed Clowney and Van Noy for dirt cheap last year…
Don't trade down for the sake of simply trading down.
However, if teams offer really good deals, I think Schoen needs to listen. This can actually play into the need to address the QB position either this year or next year. Right now, the Giants are caught in no-man's land with this QB class. So they have to maneuver this year or next to get one.
I think there are a ton of players in the latter half of the first round upper half of the second round who could start for the Giants. Also, draft capital for next year can help them trade up for the QB if necessary.
Ira said it more concisely than I did.
The problem the Giants have is they don't have a quarterback. So you have to come up with a gameplan on how to get one this year or next.
I would love Harrison, Nabers, or Odunze. They would make a huge difference. But unless New York figures out how to acquire a QB, it won't matter.
If the Giants can't get or don't like Maye and McCarthy, the Giants have to maneuver to land Penix or Nix, or punt on the QB spot until 2025.
Barring that, the Giants are stuck with Jones.
I am a Penix fan so I would not mind moving back in the first if we can get him plus some other picks to improve the team around him, but if we don't come out of this draft with a QB we have to come away with enough ammunition to get one next year. The QB problem isn't getting better with the room we have now.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
The other side of it is, becuase of the value of players where they are picking, there may be offers from team looking to deal into that, and the fact that they may be outside of the perimeter for the top 4 QBs, they could be open to listening.
My guess is that if they trade back, there's a good chance the deal includes assets that would help them in securing their QB in next year's draft.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
The three WRs seem relatively "safe bets."
However, the quarterbacks are not. And yet the Giants need one. If they trade up for McCarthy, have fewer picks, and McCarthy isn't a stud. Oh boy. This is a really dangerous time for the franchise.
If we get blocked out of that, I can live with 1 of the receivers at 6, then be aggressive on trying to get Penix or Nix.
So yes, I’m always in favor of multiple trades down, every year. The Giants rarely do this: which is why our roster blows, year in and year out.
Exactly this!!
When I run my mocks and allow myself to trade to mid round then again to the end of the 1st...
I am blown away with just how many top 50 -75 picks I wind up with.
Or as Eric put it...perhaps draft capital for next years QB chase.
1. Draft goes Williams, Daniels, Maye, MHJ, Alt.
2. Giants are up at 6 and could easily take Odunze or Nabers here, but one of the 10-14 teams offer their pick, 2nd rounder in 2024, and a 1st rounder in 2025.
3. I do that trade, because there's a lot of optimism that one of the receivers will be there in that range. You could also draft the best cornerback in the draft, one of the best OTs, or even add to the Edge room.
4. You then shift to WR with one of the 2nd round picks.
5. You have what would likely be a very high 1st round pick along with your own pick for 2025, to shift to QB if necessary
Eagles gave:
2021 1st (#6)
2021 5th (#156)
Dolphins gave:
2021 1st (#12)
2021 4th (#123)
2022 1st (Became #15)
It is likely a trade down offer would reduce the draft capital this year to add draft capital next year.
Are Schoen and Daboll secure enough in their positions to forego an elite WR prospect or top 4 QB prospect to stock the cupboard with future picks?
If this season is similar to last season, these future picks may be made by their replacements.
Eagles gave:
2021 1st (#6)
2021 5th (#156)
Dolphins gave:
2021 1st (#12)
2021 4th (#123)
2022 1st (Became #15)
It is likely a trade down offer would reduce the draft capital this year to add draft capital next year.
Are Schoen and Daboll secure enough in their positions to forego an elite WR prospect or top 4 QB prospect to stock the cupboard with future picks?
If this season is similar to last season, these future picks may be made by their replacements.
If four QBs go before #6, the Giants will have the #2 non-QB available to them. I want way more than normal or I'm not doing the deal.
The negative is that you punt on the QB.
The negative is that you punt on the QB.
Or you take the second tier QB with one of the trade down picks.
That should be the model for the current Giants.
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
Just last year, Carolina traded a huge haul away to draft Young- and the team wasn't ready. The Texans had a good plan and were ready for Stroud. I don't think the gap between Young and Stroud is as great as the performance gap last year- but the Panthers wasted a year of cheap QB time wallowing in mediocrity. They will waste this season too. By the team they are even potentially turning things around, they will be facing an expensive decision on whether to extend him or not- and who knows where Young will be physically or mentally by that point.
Trade down, get picks for the future and day 2 picks. Someone will be desperate for the top WR after Harrison and Nabors.
However, you have to be smart- don't trade down 15-20 spots at once. Do it in increments so you build the value of those trades for a team who desperately wants a player. At some point, the trade offers won't be worth continuing to move down and that's when you use your pick.
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where the Giants get someone's 1st next year, maybe a 2nd or 3rd too- while also accumulating a number of day 2 picks this year and and several more day 3 picks to try and get some depth and assets to coach up.
Sure, the Giants would NOT end up with a "premium" player- but instead they could accumulate several high end starter caliber players on a team that needs help everywhere except maybe at MIKE and DT.
If you have multiple 1st rounders and day 2 picks in 2025 and you have added multiple upgrades in the 2024 draft and 2025 FA, you are then in a position to look at moving up to get the QB. If there isn't a QB worth draft in 2025, you move the assets down the road to 2026.
1. Draft goes Williams, Daniels, Maye, MHJ, Alt.
2. Giants are up at 6 and could easily take Odunze or Nabers here, but one of the 10-14 teams offer their pick, 2nd rounder in 2024, and a 1st rounder in 2025.
3. I do that trade, because there's a lot of optimism that one of the receivers will be there in that range. You could also draft the best cornerback in the draft, one of the best OTs, or even add to the Edge room.
4. You then shift to WR with one of the 2nd round picks.
5. You have what would likely be a very high 1st round pick along with your own pick for 2025, to shift to QB if necessary
Extrapolate yourtrade to the 10-14 range...by offering that pick to someone say at 27...you wind up with even more currency.
Plus you may even have a shot at Penix or Nix
How has it worked out so far?
Do you like the results?
Quote:
is the Eagles Dolphins trade in 2021.
Eagles gave:
2021 1st (#6)
2021 5th (#156)
Dolphins gave:
2021 1st (#12)
2021 4th (#123)
2022 1st (Became #15)
It is likely a trade down offer would reduce the draft capital this year to add draft capital next year.
Are Schoen and Daboll secure enough in their positions to forego an elite WR prospect or top 4 QB prospect to stock the cupboard with future picks?
If this season is similar to last season, these future picks may be made by their replacements.
If four QBs go before #6, the Giants will have the #2 non-QB available to them. I want way more than normal or I'm not doing the deal.
In the interest of self-preservation, I would expect Schoen and Daboll to take a QB, if any of the top 4 are available at #6. It would also make sense to borrow future draft assets to move up if possible to take they QB they prefer. This seems to align with rumors that have been floated on this site.
If the QBs are gone, I agree this may be a unique situation, since we do not really have a precedent for 4 QBs in the top 5. I think the Waddle trade at least provides a benchmark, given the draft slot and position. It is debatable whether or not Nabers / Odunze are more valuable prospects than Waddle was at the time.
Have no inside knowledge, but if I were making the decision I would be thinking:
Plan A: QB and trade up if possible and I had a strong preference.
Plan B: Trade down if blown away by a package that added current and future draft capital (i.e. throw away the trade value charts and fleece a team desperate for a playmaker).
Plan C: Take your pick of the remaining WRs and try to get through the season with Lock and DJ (if healthy).
Plan B gives you some ammo to either trade back up for the next tier of QB or punt to next year.
Plan C leaves QB as a glaring question mark going forward, barring a surprise later round pick hitting.
That should be the model for the current Giants.
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
Just last year, Carolina traded a huge haul away to draft Young- and the team wasn't ready. The Texans had a good plan and were ready for Stroud. I don't think the gap between Young and Stroud is as great as the performance gap last year- but the Panthers wasted a year of cheap QB time wallowing in mediocrity. They will waste this season too. By the team they are even potentially turning things around, they will be facing an expensive decision on whether to extend him or not- and who knows where Young will be physically or mentally by that point.
Trade down, get picks for the future and day 2 picks. Someone will be desperate for the top WR after Harrison and Nabors.
However, you have to be smart- don't trade down 15-20 spots at once. Do it in increments so you build the value of those trades for a team who desperately wants a player. At some point, the trade offers won't be worth continuing to move down and that's when you use your pick.
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where the Giants get someone's 1st next year, maybe a 2nd or 3rd too- while also accumulating a number of day 2 picks this year and and several more day 3 picks to try and get some depth and assets to coach up.
Sure, the Giants would NOT end up with a "premium" player- but instead they could accumulate several high end starter caliber players on a team that needs help everywhere except maybe at MIKE and DT.
If you have multiple 1st rounders and day 2 picks in 2025 and you have added multiple upgrades in the 2024 draft and 2025 FA, you are then in a position to look at moving up to get the QB. If there isn't a QB worth draft in 2025, you move the assets down the road to 2026.
I could not have said it better myself
Load up on those Michigan players....just kidding.
This, you can get a bona fide WR1 at 6.... Perhaps you can get a serviceable WR1 later on. I'd have to be blown away for a trade down.
And no QB at 6
If they don't get a QB - and they pass on one of Penix/Nix (and Fields they didn't go after) that does wel lwhile the Giants continue to be a 6/7 win team - then it's time to move on from JS.
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Their first two round picks plus something next year - I would entertain it. You can draft a Brian Thomas at 11 and then possibly a Nix or Penix with the other late first. Not my dream scenario for QB but it is at least gives you two choices of position of need.
If the Giants can't get or don't like Maye and McCarthy, the Giants have to maneuver to land Penix or Nix, or punt on the QB spot until 2025.
Barring that, the Giants are stuck with Jones.
I suppose it comes down to how they assess Penix or Nix. If they don't think either one is capable of being "the guy" long term, I'd rather fill other holes, go with DJ or Lock next year, and assess the 2025 class. After reading and listening to the QB evaluations, I don't have a clue on Penix or Nix. I just hope Schoen and Daboll will make the right call.
totally agree!!!worthy of its own thread in fact
What the "QB at any cost" posters are missing is that this is NOT a team that's a player or two away from being a contender. This is a team that is likely two ENTIRE drafts AND FA runs away from being a contender.
Furthermore, look what having a team that was unprepared for a top QB pick did to Jones career. It was likely over before he got a chance. We can look around the league and find MANY other failed top QB picks who were drafted by a team not ready to protect them or compete- and were destroyed mentally and physically by that.
I like the idea of trade down - but I like it most to get a QB if the Giants highly value one of them. SO, I wouldn't say some of that push hard for a QB are QB at any cost" but maybe close to it.
As far how far away the Giants are-- they are extremely far away until they find a QB. So, as you propose more picks, quite a few will be in 2024, correct? As a result, the team won't be pathetic if you drafted well. And what was the reason for getting the OL this year and getting Burns? It was to be better.
SO even though you aren't a contender, what makes you think you will have the assets to move up to a WILLING team? The teams that suck more than likely need the QB.
As for being "unprepared" to take a QB - when do you know they have it? Them getting two FA probable starters along with this upcoming draft, why does it have to be lousy this year assuming our schedule is also going to stink? And they can draft another OL or two this year.
The point is some of us believe that there are people that will always find an excuse to not take a QB. They are risk adverse. QB's are generally not taken in rd 1 because of "value." And generally on here there is a lot of "Always draft BPA."
I don't think either make it past 15.
Minn,Den,Pitt all will be chomping
Minn for their 2 1st +
Den for 1st,2nd,maybe 2 3rds
Pitt-a shit ton
Minn,Den,Pitt all will be chomping
Minn for their 2 1st +
Den for 1st,2nd,maybe 2 3rds
Pitt-a shit ton
So you think JJM is trash but multiple teams will want to trade up for him?
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There will be multiple offers on the table.
Minn,Den,Pitt all will be chomping
Minn for their 2 1st +
Den for 1st,2nd,maybe 2 3rds
Pitt-a shit ton
So you think JJM is trash but multiple teams will want to trade up for him?
Thats precisely what I am saying...take advantage of the irrational QB mania that goes on every year now
Don't trade down for the sake of simply trading down.
However, if teams offer really good deals, I think Schoen needs to listen. This can actually play into the need to address the QB position either this year or next year. Right now, the Giants are caught in no-man's land with this QB class. So they have to maneuver this year or next to get one.
I think there are a ton of players in the latter half of the first round upper half of the second round who could start for the Giants. Also, draft capital for next year can help them trade up for the QB if necessary.
+1.
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In comment 16472245 AROCK1000 said:
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There will be multiple offers on the table.
Minn,Den,Pitt all will be chomping
Minn for their 2 1st +
Den for 1st,2nd,maybe 2 3rds
Pitt-a shit ton
So you think JJM is trash but multiple teams will want to trade up for him?
Thats precisely what I am saying...take advantage of the irrational QB mania that goes on every year now
If JJM doesn't go top 3, I think he slips to 6 and I don't see any team trading a haul for him personally. Vikings supposedly have Penix at 11 as their backup option. Broncos are going to trade all their precious picks and future picks when they haven't had any for years? Raiders with their need for a tackle and cb being bigger than their need for qb with O'Connell and Minshew are going to trade a king's ransom for JJM? Steelers with Russ and Fields are going to make a massive moveup from 20 to get JJM? I don't think so.
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take it. If not, hold on to 6.
Ira said it more concisely than I did.
The problem the Giants have is they don't have a quarterback. So you have to come up with a gameplan on how to get one this year or next.
I would love Harrison, Nabers, or Odunze. They would make a huge difference. But unless New York figures out how to acquire a QB, it won't matter.
This. Giants would have to be really down on the prospects on the board, especially QBs.
The Giants can’t afford to trade back too far to get an elite player. We need to be able to score points.
Franchises generally don't just pick the next available QB without some conviction. To say well JJ is there so it's an obvious pick even though we wanted Maye who was picked #2 is not reality.
If the Giants have them close then maybe, but the QB is the face of the team and the most important position. It is not a position you draft with just anyone sitting there.
Assuming we want to go QB and our guy is not there we could have the Vikings, Raiders, Broncos and maybe even Pittsburg giving us a call for #6 to get their QB. We might also be getting calls from the Titans, Atlanta, and the Jets for an OT.
If we just go tier 2 later in the first because we have some conviction there then I go Nix, and not Penix because I believe a righty QB is better for this team with Neal as our RT.
With Neal at RT we might as well have Penix hike the ball from his back and save some injury concerns on the sack he'd otherwise take.