It sounds like one or both of Vikings/Broncos will be jumping the Giants for quarterbacks. Haven't seen it mentioned, but maybe we could make a deal with one of them if NE (or one of Vikings/Broncos) takes Maye and JJM is there at 6?
I'd prefer to take JJM if he's there, but I could see Schoen wanting to trade down in that scenario.
Not sure what to believe right now (kudos to Schoen), but it does seem like indications are that the Giants will stay put and take a receiver or trade down. The rumors of them moving up seem to have died down.
Who is your ideal team for a trade down? And what would you want?
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Easy, he is not worth the #6 pick. He has too many issues. He is, in reality a day 2 pick. If Bo Nix is able to be drafted at 47, why not draft him at #6? Same thing.
We can go round and round on semantics all day long. But you very well know Penix is not a top 6 talent in this draft. I like Penix, but why would you draft him at 6 when you can trade back to #12(for example) and get him along with a #2 and next year #2 or maybe even a #1? That is how yo leverage a draft and fill the roster.
Easier - Should Brock Purdy have been drafted in the 1st or 2nd round? His play says he should have been. But his rating was late day 3 or UDFA.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
I hear what you are saying. And it has merit. But the guy has had two ACLs and two shoulder injuries that ended four seasons.
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My question would be if you can draft Penix at 12, why can't you draft him at 6?
Easy, he is not worth the #6 pick. He has too many issues. He is, in reality a day 2 pick. If Bo Nix is able to be drafted at 47, why not draft him at #6? Same thing.
We can go round and round on semantics all day long. But you very well know Penix is not a top 6 talent in this draft. I like Penix, but why would you draft him at 6 when you can trade back to #12(for example) and get him along with a #2 and next year #2 or maybe even a #1? That is how yo leverage a draft and fill the roster.
Easier - Should Brock Purdy have been drafted in the 1st or 2nd round? His play says he should have been. But his rating was late day 3 or UDFA.
If they really want JJM it would be Surtain and a 2025 1st. They don't have a 2nd this year
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He threw more passes than anyone else in that time. He's a pocket passer and excels at getting the ball out quickly and decisively.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
I hear what you are saying. And it has merit. But the guy has had two ACLs and two shoulder injuries that ended four seasons.
Yeah, I don't see us taking him at 6. That's why it was my pick for the surprise pick at 6. It would shock me and excite me at the same time.
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In comment 16474341 Go Terps said:
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My question would be if you can draft Penix at 12, why can't you draft him at 6?
Because maybe at 12 you also get another second round pick or a second round pick in next years draft.
So you don't want Penix to be the Giants QB, unless we get an additional second round pick next year. Then you do?
Do you imagine his success as the Giants QB hinges on that 2025 second round pick?
It is not his success, but the future success of the team. If you can get him at 12 for an additional #2 or #3 this year and next years #2 or possibly #1, that definitely increases the chances of future success. More premium picks increases the chance of getting better players and improving the roster.
7 days, bud.
I like Jaxon Dart and Cam Ward personally. Idk where they will go, but they are my two favorites currently.
If a team trades up in front of us we could still beat their offer and come away with extra draft capital vs taking him at 6.
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but endorsing it at 12, while also ignoring the risk of him potentially being gone at 12.
If a team trades up in front of us we could still beat their offer and come away with extra draft capital vs taking him at 6.
That argument hinges on all things working out in our favor with no mistakes made. There is no way a GM looking for a top QB prospect is going to punt a sure thing for a maybe.
No matter where you draft a QB, all that matters is the results
Its like the people who think the Giants should have drafted Jones at 17 but not 6. Would you somehow be happier with his 22 wins in 5 seasons because we got him a few picks later?
He’s going to need a solid line on the right side and if he suffers a career ending injury, The owners and most of the fan base will want them gone, especially if DJ has a halfway decent career as a game manager type qb.
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In comment 16474412 UConn4523 said:
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but endorsing it at 12, while also ignoring the risk of him potentially being gone at 12.
If a team trades up in front of us we could still beat their offer and come away with extra draft capital vs taking him at 6.
That argument hinges on all things working out in our favor with no mistakes made. There is no way a GM looking for a top QB prospect is going to punt a sure thing for a maybe.
This situation is based on them not being able to get their guy and liking Penix but not seeing him as a sure thing due to injury history. Without the injury history he would be a top 3 pick. I want a QB so bad that I would take Penix AT 6, but I don't think Schoen would.
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In comment 16474415 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16474412 UConn4523 said:
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but endorsing it at 12, while also ignoring the risk of him potentially being gone at 12.
If a team trades up in front of us we could still beat their offer and come away with extra draft capital vs taking him at 6.
That argument hinges on all things working out in our favor with no mistakes made. There is no way a GM looking for a top QB prospect is going to punt a sure thing for a maybe.
This situation is based on them not being able to get their guy and liking Penix but not seeing him as a sure thing due to injury history. Without the injury history he would be a top 3 pick. I want a QB so bad that I would probably take Penix AT 6, but I don't think Schoen would.
It's a great point.
But we all know the problem with Penix. I just watched Fowler say he could go anywhere from the teens to day two.
I could see him go as high a 6.
However, if you trade down, and acquire more draft capital, it would take the sting out of him tearing his ACL the third time.
I just don't feel terribly comfortable taking him at #6.
But I have some difficulty seeing the Giants replacing an injury-prone QB with another one.
If Penix didn't have the medicals, he would go before McCarthy.
That is a stretch..
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discount Penix at six.
But I have some difficulty seeing the Giants replacing an injury-prone QB with another one.
If Penix didn't have the medicals, he would go before McCarthy.
That is a stretch..
I'm a big JJM fan, and I can say without a doubt without the medicals Penix would be ahead of JJM and probably a top 3 pick. That's why he could be worth the risk. He's as a legit of a passer as you'll find in the draft.
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discount Penix at six.
But I have some difficulty seeing the Giants replacing an injury-prone QB with another one.
If Penix didn't have the medicals, he would go before McCarthy.
That is a stretch..
A stretch? Take away the medicals and Penix blows away what McCarthy has done in terms of passing the ball, arm strength, and productivity.
He’s going to need a solid line on the right side and if he suffers a career ending injury, The owners and most of the fan base will want them gone, especially if DJ has a halfway decent career as a game manager type qb.
Why is his wearing a knee brace an issue? Actually it is smart. Why not take additional protection?
DJ is not going to have a decent career with the Giants.
So you don't see a scenario where Joe Schoen would take Penix later in the draft?
We'll agree to disagree.
That's valid, but there's a big difference between Penix at 6 and Penix plus the Broncos 2025 1st and maybe Surtain or 2025 2nd.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Yep, he is going to be 4 years removed from his knee injuries when camp starts. There has to be a point where it is not an issue any more.
But what scares teams is what Fowler just said on Eisen's show. He said some teams feel the injuries won't be a huge problem but he will have to be "managed" because of them. So in other words, some of these past injuries still may even impact how he practices.
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In comment 16474268 Strahan91 said:
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if you look at their top 30 visits there aren't many guys projected to go mid to late 1st round
Actually, Sy'56 e-mailed me a couple of days ago saying that he felt the team was looking at a bunch of players with their 30 visits that are currently in the no-man's land between our two picks.
I've noticed this as well. They've had a ton of visits with guys that will go in the first round but not top 10.
Agreed.
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IMO
So you don't see a scenario where Joe Schoen would take Penix later in the draft?
We'll agree to disagree.
Yes, in the 2nd or via trade up back into the first if he falls. I don’t see a scenario where he doesn’t like him at 6 and trades down thinking he can pick up an extra pick and sneak in his new QB at 12.
Can that happen? I guess. But that’s a hell of a gamble if you actually like the player and have a 1st round grade on him with a few QB needy teams picking between 6-11 or right after within striking distance of a trade up.
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As good as he is, Read that he wears a brace and intends to keep doing so.
He’s going to need a solid line on the right side and if he suffers a career ending injury, The owners and most of the fan base will want them gone, especially if DJ has a halfway decent career as a game manager type qb.
Why is his wearing a knee brace an issue? Actually it is smart. Why not take additional protection?
DJ is not going to have a decent career with the Giants.
To me, I just feel it will somewhat limit his movement.
I do agree that DJ won’t have a decent year here. However I think if he ends up with a team that doesn’t ask him to do much he might be ok.
My preferences are
1) Drake Maye
2) Trade down to a team that wants JJM, hopefully a trade where we can potentially get a top 5 2025 pick, broncos rumor sounds good and get a project qb later in the draft
3) one of the top wr’s minus Nabers,
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He threw more passes than anyone else in that time. He's a pocket passer and excels at getting the ball out quickly and decisively.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Yep, he is going to be 4 years removed from his knee injuries when camp starts. There has to be a point where it is not an issue any more.
10+ years ago it would be a real issue, surgeries have exponentially evolved so much that it's different nowadays. Even after 2 acl surgeries and individual could potentially have a stronger acl than they did before their first acl tear.
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In comment 16474392 Go Terps said:
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He threw more passes than anyone else in that time. He's a pocket passer and excels at getting the ball out quickly and decisively.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Yep, he is going to be 4 years removed from his knee injuries when camp starts. There has to be a point where it is not an issue any more.
10+ years ago it would be a real issue, surgeries have exponentially evolved so much that it's different nowadays. Even after 2 acl surgeries and individual could potentially have a stronger acl than they did before their first acl tear.
He is at a 20% greater risk of having another ACL on that same right knee then if he hadn't already had two grade 3 ACL's on his right knee. You can't undo his prior injuries even if he's been lucky in the last 4 college seasons. Now you are talking about the NFL, with bigger, faster and stronger defensive players against a Giant OL that has been far below average over the last few years. No way do I take that risk with the 6th pick.
I think we'd have to draft JJM (presumably who Denver wants at 6) and wait to see if Penix is still available when Denver picks. And even that's risky because you could get "stuck" with JJM.
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My question would be if you can draft Penix at 12, why can't you draft him at 6?
Because maybe at 12 you also get another second round pick or a second round pick in next years draft.
If 6 to 12 you better be getting a lot more than a 2nd round pick
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In comment 16474469 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 16474392 Go Terps said:
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He threw more passes than anyone else in that time. He's a pocket passer and excels at getting the ball out quickly and decisively.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Yep, he is going to be 4 years removed from his knee injuries when camp starts. There has to be a point where it is not an issue any more.
10+ years ago it would be a real issue, surgeries have exponentially evolved so much that it's different nowadays. Even after 2 acl surgeries and individual could potentially have a stronger acl than they did before their first acl tear.
He is at a 20% greater risk of having another ACL on that same right knee then if he hadn't already had two grade 3 ACL's on his right knee. You can't undo his prior injuries even if he's been lucky in the last 4 college seasons. Now you are talking about the NFL, with bigger, faster and stronger defensive players against a Giant OL that has been far below average over the last few years. No way do I take that risk with the 6th pick.
93.2% of stats are made up.
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In comment 16474488 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16474469 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 16474392 Go Terps said:
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He threw more passes than anyone else in that time. He's a pocket passer and excels at getting the ball out quickly and decisively.
Who's more likely to get hurt? Penix, or say Jayden Daniels who runs like he's looking for a truck to collide with?
Yep, he is going to be 4 years removed from his knee injuries when camp starts. There has to be a point where it is not an issue any more.
10+ years ago it would be a real issue, surgeries have exponentially evolved so much that it's different nowadays. Even after 2 acl surgeries and individual could potentially have a stronger acl than they did before their first acl tear.
He is at a 20% greater risk of having another ACL on that same right knee then if he hadn't already had two grade 3 ACL's on his right knee. You can't undo his prior injuries even if he's been lucky in the last 4 college seasons. Now you are talking about the NFL, with bigger, faster and stronger defensive players against a Giant OL that has been far below average over the last few years. No way do I take that risk with the 6th pick.
93.2% of stats are made up.
He's also implying the size and speed of defenders plays a part in ACL injuries when most are non-contact.
He has too much risk for where he will be drafted. But we have the same risks already sticking with Jones so maybe you can look past it.
Prefer to draft the stud WR and then work for a QB later, if it ends up Penix we better be readyt to do this again in 2 year.
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In comment 16474341 Go Terps said:
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My question would be if you can draft Penix at 12, why can't you draft him at 6?
Because maybe at 12 you also get another second round pick or a second round pick in next years draft.
If 6 to 12 you better be getting a lot more than a 2nd round pick
According to the charts, 6 to 12 is almost exactly a 2nd round pick - about 400 points.
So a 2nd and next years 2nd is a good deal.
This is like criticizing Reggie Miller's shooting form.
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In comment 16474349 LW_Giants said:
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In comment 16474341 Go Terps said:
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My question would be if you can draft Penix at 12, why can't you draft him at 6?
Because maybe at 12 you also get another second round pick or a second round pick in next years draft.
If 6 to 12 you better be getting a lot more than a 2nd round pick
According to the charts, 6 to 12 is almost exactly a 2nd round pick - about 400 points.
So a 2nd and next years 2nd is a good deal.
Those charts are useless for 1st rd picks, especially when a qb is involved. According to that logic, we could get pick 4 for pick 70 and 6 and that would even be overpaying or we could get pick 3 for pick 6, 47 and 70 (and that would be an overpay too).
If the Broncos did offer the Giants #12, next year's #1, and Surtain, you take that offer.
That’s a no brainer for the Giants but I’m also not a fan of McCarthy at all.
But even if the giants had 2 high 1sts next year, nothing is guaranteed in terms of being able to trade up for a QB. Look at this years top 3- the teams have to be willing to trade down. It’s not always what you can offer.
And there isn't a great comeback for saying if you are going to take him at 12, why don't you take him at 6?
That's why I do think there is a possibility he could be in play at 6.
Again, it depends on the medicals.
Inconsistent over the middle
Poor footwork
Not mobile.
Struggles to throw on the run.
These things are imperative in todays games.
And there isn't a great comeback for saying if you are going to take him at 12, why don't you take him at 6?
That's why I do think there is a possibility he could be in play at 6.
Again, it depends on the medicals.
medical when major injuries concerned always a big if and the lack of mobility is a significant differentiator.
any QB who doesn't run is playing a significantly harder game than any qb who can run. even herbert/stroud run a little (200ish yards, a few carries per game, 1 first down per game, 4+ ypc). penix has been a total non-runner the last 4 years around or under 2 ypc.
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but endorsing it at 12, while also ignoring the risk of him potentially being gone at 12.
It's a great point.
But we all know the problem with Penix. I just watched Fowler say he could go anywhere from the teens to day two.
I could see him go as high a 6.
However, if you trade down, and acquire more draft capital, it would take the sting out of him tearing his ACL the third time.
I just don't feel terribly comfortable taking him at #6.
The penix at 6 takes are going to age like milk come next Sunday
I'll have what he's having.