I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
Jones succeeded (to the extent he did) in 2022 by primarily being an option for designed runs. Do you think that is wise with his injuries and injury guarantee (and the way the rest of the league caught up to it in 2022)?
3 of his 6 games were without barkley, all 6 may as well have been without thomas since he was only healthy for 1 drive. im more worried about whether or not he can break the bad habits he developed than that it was the league catching up.
the health risk is what you need to weigh, but for $12m of risk id rather go for a pick. scared money doesnt make money and i think their cap is healthy enough that the harder thing to do is get extra picks than find money where needed.
like i said i am almost always prioritizing draft picks >>>> cap space.
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
both sides can go hyperbolic if they want, i would say if jones ends up showing that he's best qb on the roster on the practice field it's pure gutlessness to play a worse player and the rest of the roster will see right through it. at that point if he's healthy they should just cut him.
it's not impossible that they cut Jones btw if he gets beat out (or before). once he is healthy after june 1st there is nothing stopping them from cutting him (other than if they still like him enough to want to keep him around).
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
If we end up getting a QB on day one, the next logical move would be to cut Jones asap - announced as a post-June cut - and go into camp with rookie, Lock and Cutlets.
Keeping Jones on would be beyond superfluous and a distraction.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
Schoen declined the option and got a favorable out clause in the new deal to prevent longer term damage. It wasn’t clean but it could have been a lot worse. You can argue he did a good job convincing Mara off a bigger commitment. Or he thought Jones would keep improving, who knows.
Either way I’m done with Jones and I think Schoen has a plan but if we finish day 2 without a QB selection I will be out on him and that to me would signify he wasn’t the right hire.
Always take the best player. It cuts down on your misses. Don’t draft for need unless you are real close to being a superbowl contender.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
No. But if the Giants pick comes up at #6 and their choices are Odunze who they rate 8.5/10, nobody else is above 7, and McCarthy is 6.5/10, they should go with Odunze.
A lot of people on this board think they should go with McCarthy anyway in this situation, because we MUST get a QB.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room if that's how it shakes out. Maybe they do better with a legitimate offensive line in front of them throwing to Odunze. Lock's a different face and maybe he's better than Jones even if he's not the final answer. Who knows.
The only question is, who and when? The value simply must make sense. Reaching for a quarterback is precisely what got us into this mess in the first place. If we don't heed the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat them. No more middling talents anointed under interminable scholarships for this franchise!
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
Be smart Joe Schoen.
I'm not opposed to the idea to keep drafting QBs until you have one. The Giants did just this until they were misled into thinking they had one in Jones.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
But if Jones is on the roster week 1 he will almost certainly play this year, and that is compounding the mistake Schoen made with the Jones contract.
Mistakes are made all the time. Doubling down on them is what losing organizations do. Schoen needs to start fixing his mistake and not compound it by playing Jones in 2024.
Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
The A graded contract that hasn’t stopped giving yet.
RE: I do think a post 6/1 cut is a real possibility
i thought they'd have a chunk of time with him on PUP to see what they have with everyone else on roster and then be able to make a decision. really no reason to make a decision on him before he's healthy either way bc they cant cut him before he's healthy.
seeing him running sprints with the team already it looks like he may actually be ready at the start of camp, which would be pretty remarkable. im sure they will ease him into camp and i agree if a rookie shows up ready to rock it may end up best for both sides to part with enough time for him to find a different spot.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Come to Central Park to our free concert in May it's Stella Blues Band and all proceeds go to Riverkeeper
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
You did say the only thing the Giants have done (sans a potential QB pick on Thurs) is pay Jones.
But they did trade for Lock.
As a reclamation project, you could do a lot worse. Could Daboll/Kafka turn Lock into something legit? Admittedly unlikely, but not impossible...he has tools to work with.
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
that Terps would have spent a top 10 pick on Willis and somehow have people believe that moving off of him as a bust would be a good outcome.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
So anyone who makes a mistake should be dismissed? I'm pretty sure that would mean your posts should be ignored. And yea... getting Willis would have been a better outcome than giving Jones $100M and getting the very worst QB play in the league.. I think you should stick to talking about football rather than airing out personal grievances.
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
No victory lap in the player here. It's just...I did nail the pick. I mean come on.
As for Lock, he's just a replacement for Taylor, right? There's no long term vision there. At least I don't think so.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
I agree. I don't think Schoen is scared of the injury guarantee. They'll play the QB they believe in the most.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
Not everybody agrees with the group here.
It would be a tough spot for a rookie quarterback.
Playing behind a line that gave up 85 sacks that has been reinforced by some free agents. The best expectations for it would be mediocre, and that's a stretch. To be clear, the line gave up 30 sacks in Jones' six games, an average of five per game, and 55 sacks in the other eleven games, an average of five per game.
And the rookie would also have to deal with no discernable running game at this time.
If you asked the rookie a few games into his career, he would probably prefer an offensive lineman to give him time to throw and open holes for running backs.
Why would you sit your rookie QB for at least close to half of his rookie season?
- we have a new oline coach who needs to implement changes
- second year center who needs to show improvement from last year
- not sure who our starting LG,RG,RT are going to be the most successful combination
- So it would make the most sense to give the oline time to iron out as much as possible before throwing the rookie QB to the wolves, because you can ruin a QB.
Why "force" a QB in the 1st round?
- By using the word "force" you are putting your own feelings on what you think about the QBs which is may not align with the teams thoughts on a particular QB
- A good GM would analyze the current QB class and also next years class, what players are you think are to be free agents, and your current QBs...need to weigh all options
- Its not forced if your assessment shows that getting a QB in this draft class is the best option.
Would I trade a 2025 first round pick for my next QB?
- Yes, but I am working off the assumption of my first point. If I completed my assessments and there is a particular QB that I consider to be THAT guy and the only thing that stands in my way is 2025 pick, then I would pull the trigger.
- If my read my options as:
- Lose 1st round pick to get my guy of the future
- Pick a QB that is not the guy
- Pay DJ 40 million dollars in 2025 with potential of him not playing at all because he got hurt in 2024 again
- Paying another veteran QB a good chunk of change with no upside
What about DJ?
- Do you feel comfortable paying DJ over 40 Million dollars in 2025?
I was a DJ supporter for good amount of time but situations and opinions can be changed. Last year I saw a QB you seemed gun shy and unwilling to throw the ball in challenging locations and lacked the ability to throw with anticipation in his 5th season. His current contract was dealt on the premise that he would take the next steps in his progression and there is no proof he has or is going to do this. On top of that He also has 2 neck injuries and coming off a torn ACL, and he is QB that is dependent on his mobility as a threat to be successful. So my answer right now is "NO" I do not feel comfortable paying him 40 mil.
- Should DJ be the QB in 2024?
Yes, if he waives his injury clause. I am already paying him for 2024 and I do not want my rookie QB getting destroyed , so until I feel comfortable with the protection I am not putting my rookie at risk of getting happy feet, bad habits, and unable to develop proper progressions and reads.
- Why would DJ waive his injury clause?
I will put myself in DJ's shoes for this one:
- Giants have drafted a new QB and they are moving on from me
- If they cut me this year I am looking for job, what job am I looking for? Probably somewhere where I think I will have a chance to play to show I am back from my injuries and I can be competent NFL starter. I will not be given an injury clause in my new contract with a new team.
- If I waive my clause what are the advantages? I get to play football Day1 if I am healthy enough to play. I already know the offense and I get half a season to show the rest of the NFL teams how good I am, I could have potential to be traded (not likely due to contact) or when I get released I could have multiple suitors and get the best contact and situation possible.
- If I do not waive my clause? The Giants do not play me at all because they dont want the risk of paying me over 40mil if I get hurt. So then the year is over and I hit the market, I have not played in over a year and have shown no proof of my abilities coming of an ACL injury with an already injury riddled history. I didn't even get into what these teams think of my playing ability.
I don't think anyone wants to FORCE a 1st rd QB. Most just recognize we need one & this is supposedly a great draft for them.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
If all of that is true, who the GM is really makes little difference. Mara does own the team. He also has terrible football instincts. It makes little sense to hire a guy to assemble a team and then tell him who you want on it. But would anyone be surprised if that is what was happening?
I don't think anyone wants to FORCE a 1st rd QB. Most just recognize we need one & this is supposedly a great draft for them.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
I think there are many posters saying "QB or bust" so I think they do want to force the pick.
3 of his 6 games were without barkley, all 6 may as well have been without thomas since he was only healthy for 1 drive. im more worried about whether or not he can break the bad habits he developed than that it was the league catching up.
the health risk is what you need to weigh, but for $12m of risk id rather go for a pick. scared money doesnt make money and i think their cap is healthy enough that the harder thing to do is get extra picks than find money where needed.
like i said i am almost always prioritizing draft picks >>>> cap space.
both sides can go hyperbolic if they want, i would say if jones ends up showing that he's best qb on the roster on the practice field it's pure gutlessness to play a worse player and the rest of the roster will see right through it. at that point if he's healthy they should just cut him.
it's not impossible that they cut Jones btw if he gets beat out (or before). once he is healthy after june 1st there is nothing stopping them from cutting him (other than if they still like him enough to want to keep him around).
If we end up getting a QB on day one, the next logical move would be to cut Jones asap - announced as a post-June cut - and go into camp with rookie, Lock and Cutlets.
Keeping Jones on would be beyond superfluous and a distraction.
Hey, you're preaching to the converted.
But I think Eric on Li is probably right. If we can't find our new QB-of-the-future, and Jones is cleared, he will very likely be the starter.
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I agree. But seriously even if we don’t get a QB Thursday, I’m cutting him ASAP.
Hey, you're preaching to the converted.
But I think Eric on Li is probably right. If we can't find our new QB-of-the-future, and Jones is cleared, he will very likely be the starter.
& when he probably inevitably gets injured & can't pass a Match '25 physical & we're on the hook for $23 million in dead cap...I'll laugh.
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
Schoen declined the option and got a favorable out clause in the new deal to prevent longer term damage. It wasn’t clean but it could have been a lot worse. You can argue he did a good job convincing Mara off a bigger commitment. Or he thought Jones would keep improving, who knows.
Either way I’m done with Jones and I think Schoen has a plan but if we finish day 2 without a QB selection I will be out on him and that to me would signify he wasn’t the right hire.
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Always take the best player. It cuts down on your misses. Don’t draft for need unless you are real close to being a superbowl contender.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
No. But if the Giants pick comes up at #6 and their choices are Odunze who they rate 8.5/10, nobody else is above 7, and McCarthy is 6.5/10, they should go with Odunze.
A lot of people on this board think they should go with McCarthy anyway in this situation, because we MUST get a QB.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room if that's how it shakes out. Maybe they do better with a legitimate offensive line in front of them throwing to Odunze. Lock's a different face and maybe he's better than Jones even if he's not the final answer. Who knows.
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
Be smart Joe Schoen.
I'm not opposed to the idea to keep drafting QBs until you have one. The Giants did just this until they were misled into thinking they had one in Jones.
You might be right. But if that's the case, this organization is even stupider than I thought.
If we take a QB at 6 you’ll never see Jones play another down as a Giant. What do you want to wager?
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He will be the starter...no matter who we take or don't take.
You might be right. But if that's the case, this organization is even stupider than I thought.
Schoen is alot of things...stupid is not one of them
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He will be the starter...no matter who we take or don't take.
If we take a QB at 6 you’ll never see Jones play another down as a Giant. What do you want to wager?
I never met a wager I don't like
How we gonna settle this?
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Quote:
$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
Lock
Maye/McCarthy
DeVito
This would be beneficial to Jones as well imo.
Mistakes are made all the time. Doubling down on them is what losing organizations do. Schoen needs to start fixing his mistake and not compound it by playing Jones in 2024.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
Quote:
Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
The A graded contract that hasn’t stopped giving yet.
Lock
Maye/McCarthy
DeVito
This would be beneficial to Jones as well imo.
i thought they'd have a chunk of time with him on PUP to see what they have with everyone else on roster and then be able to make a decision. really no reason to make a decision on him before he's healthy either way bc they cant cut him before he's healthy.
seeing him running sprints with the team already it looks like he may actually be ready at the start of camp, which would be pretty remarkable. im sure they will ease him into camp and i agree if a rookie shows up ready to rock it may end up best for both sides to part with enough time for him to find a different spot.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
Hey look who it is. Of all the people to call someone else out for being wrong on something...
Quote:
In comment 16480407 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Come to Central Park to our free concert in May it's Stella Blues Band and all proceeds go to Riverkeeper
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
And you’d want Dave Gettleman still here running the show. Your track record is nothing to be bragging about at all.
Now go create some fake quotes to try and win a message board argument.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
But they did trade for Lock.
As a reclamation project, you could do a lot worse. Could Daboll/Kafka turn Lock into something legit? Admittedly unlikely, but not impossible...he has tools to work with.
Agree! You don't give up draft capitol especially with two elite WR prospects falling on your lap! period.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
So anyone who makes a mistake should be dismissed? I'm pretty sure that would mean your posts should be ignored. And yea... getting Willis would have been a better outcome than giving Jones $100M and getting the very worst QB play in the league.. I think you should stick to talking about football rather than airing out personal grievances.
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Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
No victory lap in the player here. It's just...I did nail the pick. I mean come on.
As for Lock, he's just a replacement for Taylor, right? There's no long term vision there. At least I don't think so.
Is the plan to be bad enough for long enough that eventually prospect meets value in the top 5 one day?
Yes, you sign a veteran, keep building the team, and keep looking for a QB you love. The NFL doesn't end after 2024.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
I agree. I don't think Schoen is scared of the injury guarantee. They'll play the QB they believe in the most.
You're assuming who they pick will be Jones.
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If there isn't a guy we love on the clock in 2025, what do you do? Free agency? Wait until 2026? 2027?
Is the plan to be bad enough for long enough that eventually prospect meets value in the top 5 one day?
Yes, you sign a veteran, keep building the team, and keep looking for a QB you love. The NFL doesn't end after 2024.
So you feel like signing Lock was the answer? What is the plan next year since Lock is on a one year deal, sign a different vet?
If you prefer to squander this opportunity what is your plan for QB? Wait and see what happens after this year?
Quote:
In comment 16480407 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Done.
Not everybody agrees with the group here.
And the rookie would also have to deal with no discernable running game at this time.
If you asked the rookie a few games into his career, he would probably prefer an offensive lineman to give him time to throw and open holes for running backs.
- we have a new oline coach who needs to implement changes
- second year center who needs to show improvement from last year
- not sure who our starting LG,RG,RT are going to be the most successful combination
- So it would make the most sense to give the oline time to iron out as much as possible before throwing the rookie QB to the wolves, because you can ruin a QB.
Why "force" a QB in the 1st round?
- By using the word "force" you are putting your own feelings on what you think about the QBs which is may not align with the teams thoughts on a particular QB
- A good GM would analyze the current QB class and also next years class, what players are you think are to be free agents, and your current QBs...need to weigh all options
- Its not forced if your assessment shows that getting a QB in this draft class is the best option.
Would I trade a 2025 first round pick for my next QB?
- Yes, but I am working off the assumption of my first point. If I completed my assessments and there is a particular QB that I consider to be THAT guy and the only thing that stands in my way is 2025 pick, then I would pull the trigger.
- If my read my options as:
- Lose 1st round pick to get my guy of the future
- Pick a QB that is not the guy
- Pay DJ 40 million dollars in 2025 with potential of him not playing at all because he got hurt in 2024 again
- Paying another veteran QB a good chunk of change with no upside
What about DJ?
- Do you feel comfortable paying DJ over 40 Million dollars in 2025?
I was a DJ supporter for good amount of time but situations and opinions can be changed. Last year I saw a QB you seemed gun shy and unwilling to throw the ball in challenging locations and lacked the ability to throw with anticipation in his 5th season. His current contract was dealt on the premise that he would take the next steps in his progression and there is no proof he has or is going to do this. On top of that He also has 2 neck injuries and coming off a torn ACL, and he is QB that is dependent on his mobility as a threat to be successful. So my answer right now is "NO" I do not feel comfortable paying him 40 mil.
- Should DJ be the QB in 2024?
Yes, if he waives his injury clause. I am already paying him for 2024 and I do not want my rookie QB getting destroyed , so until I feel comfortable with the protection I am not putting my rookie at risk of getting happy feet, bad habits, and unable to develop proper progressions and reads.
- Why would DJ waive his injury clause?
I will put myself in DJ's shoes for this one:
- Giants have drafted a new QB and they are moving on from me
- If they cut me this year I am looking for job, what job am I looking for? Probably somewhere where I think I will have a chance to play to show I am back from my injuries and I can be competent NFL starter. I will not be given an injury clause in my new contract with a new team.
- If I waive my clause what are the advantages? I get to play football Day1 if I am healthy enough to play. I already know the offense and I get half a season to show the rest of the NFL teams how good I am, I could have potential to be traded (not likely due to contact) or when I get released I could have multiple suitors and get the best contact and situation possible.
- If I do not waive my clause? The Giants do not play me at all because they dont want the risk of paying me over 40mil if I get hurt. So then the year is over and I hit the market, I have not played in over a year and have shown no proof of my abilities coming of an ACL injury with an already injury riddled history. I didn't even get into what these teams think of my playing ability.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
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In comment 16480252 UConn4523 said:
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
If all of that is true, who the GM is really makes little difference. Mara does own the team. He also has terrible football instincts. It makes little sense to hire a guy to assemble a team and then tell him who you want on it. But would anyone be surprised if that is what was happening?
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
I think there are many posters saying "QB or bust" so I think they do want to force the pick.