I know a lot of fans see prospects like Nabers and visualize him taking the top off the defense. They probably see the most electric offensive player this franchise has had since Beckham,
Harrison may be the safest player in the draft. He might not be as flashy as Nabers, but you plug him in as your WR1 for the next 5 years.
I see how fans would want either. But, it's year 3 of the Schoen/Daboll regime. Right now, there isn't much to show for it. I think most of us can agree that the success of 2022 led to some consequences. We can all debate how responsible Schoen was for the Jones contract, we can debate if Schoen hitched his wagon to Jones. What we can't debate are the actions Schoen took prior to the 2022 success and the hesitation to talk extension contract with him during the 2022 season.
I know a lot of fans like the idea of playing the long game, keep building. How long do these guys have? Again, it's year THREE. This really is the time for them to get their QB. If there is one thing the Burns trade really told me, Schoen is building this thing his way. Letting Barkley & McKinney walk coupled with trading for Burns is a big indicator of that imo.
Now, I think it's QB. This is when you start to really see Schoen's vision come together. Will it work? Who knows. But when you look at their regime in total, I think 2025 needs to be a very competitive season. And how are you competitive in 2025?
-Cheap QB (Maye or McCarthy)
-WR1 (probably via trade - maybe Aiyuk as we've seen Rickey speculate)
It's a vision. It's a build. And I really think by year 3 there needs to be that vision. And yes, the QB could bust. A lot of QBs do. But, that doesn't mean you keep starting Jones until that perfect QB comes along which is once a generation.
This is simply why I see QB tonight. I don't think these guys have all the time in the world here. Draft Nabers and project that scenario out. NYG finishes about the same next year and they are in the same exact QB predicament with their seats scorching hot. That's not a good place to be.
The QB stuff makes sense imo.
That being said my 10th rated plater (QB) is more valuable than my 5th rated player (WR) because my QB room is not good. Essentially empty after this season if we release/trade Jones as expected...
Good point. If they don't take it, I don't think they'll get another swing at it.
If there was a QB to take it would have really helped, wouldn't it?
Of the end for the Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll regime.
I think the Giants are a more talented and competitive team than they are being given credit for. Assuming they don't get killed with significant injuries once again, they will make the playoffs this year and may even go far.
What this isn't is the first year the boy genius has had the shackles removed so he can do as he wants. I think the jury is still very much still out on whether Schoen is the long term answer for this team. The decisions he makes tonight may go a long way to eventually settling that argument.
Of the end for the Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll regime.
More fat boy than the GM IMO
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Schoen and Daboll taking a second shot at building THEIR team. The first attempt failed miserably. The hope is that they learned their lesson.
It didn't fail miserably. They won a playoff game in year one and in year two they suffered significant injuries to three players they were greatly depending on (Jones, Thomas, Waller) and consequently have the 6th overall pick (which can be turned into a blue chip WR or the potential future at QB) and had the 39th overall pick which was converted into Brian Burns.
I think the Giants are a more talented and competitive team than they are being given credit for. Assuming they don't get killed with significant injuries once again, they will make the playoffs this year and may even go far.
The season was virtually over when Jones got hurt, and his play, while healthy, was a big part of why the season was over so quickly.
We won in 2022 because Brian Daboll and his staff designed an offense to limit what Jones does worst - pass the ball. It worked for half a season until defenses caught up to it, which is why the record down the stretch was terrible. In the playoffs we got a good draw against an historically bad defense and won. It was impressive coaching. How many teams make the playoffs in the 21st century with a QB throwing less than a passing TD per game?
Schoen's mistake in evaluating 2022 was the same as yours - looking at the result and not the process. The way that team won had a definite shelf life and he failed to see that.
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if it was about building THEIR team when they had the #5 and #7 pick. Could have done some damage.
If there was a QB to take it would have really helped, wouldn't it?
Knowing that they needed one would have been a start.
Fans give Schoen and Daboll far too little responsibility for being in this situation in the first place.
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\ Giants have 15 first rd rated players and clearly 4 of those 15 are QB's.
Why is that clear? We know they did their homework on the QBs, we don't know what they concluded.
Seriously? We know Williams, Daniels and Maye are 1st rd for sure, you can assume time spent says JJM is also rd 1.. That is a SAFE assumption..
To date the hallmark of this regime is signing a loser backup QB who is worth $10 M / year max to one of the most foolish contracts in team history. Although I suspect he had no choice and Mara was negotiating both sides of that deal.
This is it. You get a chance to build something. Do you want to putter around 6-9 wins and hope to be on the "In the Hunt" graphic in December? Or do you want to try to build a consistent contender that can play and win big games against good teams? This is the draft.
If we procrastinate on QB, we are pushing the timeline out to 2026/7. Who's going to be around by then besides the Maras? We will see.
We won in 2022 because Brian Daboll and his staff designed an offense to limit what Jones does worst - pass the ball.
Year 2 they under achieved badly per year 1
I will keep it simple, I want a great player!
Schoen has been good managing the cap and cutting some fat, drafting not so much. And Waller still made no sense, Golladay redux (injury/the final piece).
I don't disagree with this, but there are several BBIers who claim there is NO SUCH THING as a multi-year re-build in the NFL!
I guess I don't have the same mindset as you where I just trust everyone is smarter than me and those people's actions are not subject to criticism.
The fact that you are in denial about this is astounding.
This.
They fucked the DJ situation to no end.
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The regime inherited a team that was a mess. It was always going to be a multi-year rebuild. They are trying to secure their guy at QB. Not more to it than that.
I don't disagree with this, but there are several BBIers who claim there is NO SUCH THING as a multi-year re-build in the NFL!
There aren't. Look at the Texans and Lions. If rebuild takes 5 years there will be another regime coming in. That's the point,
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The regime inherited a team that was a mess. It was always going to be a multi-year rebuild. They are trying to secure their guy at QB. Not more to it than that.
I don't disagree with this, but there are several BBIers who claim there is NO SUCH THING as a multi-year re-build in the NFL!
Of course there are multi-year rebuilds. My criticism was that year 1 was a good first step. Year 2 they deviated from the plan because of winning a playoff game rather than trusting the process and continuing on the path they started. How else do you explain declining Jones' 5th year option and then signing him to a lucrative, multi-year deal?
It is also possible that we don't draft a QB and all of the top 6 prospects are off the board at the end of the night, and Joe Schoen states once again that they believe fully in Daniel Jones.
The fact that you are in denial about this is astounding.
More or less, yes. But the Jones deal was structured in a way to give them an out after 2 years. They had a QB who took them to a playoff game and won with a bad roster around him, they signed him to a franchise QB contract but hedged that bet in a way that made it a two year commitment. Last year went down the way that it did, and now it's clear they're moving on. So that's where we are.
Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are starting Year 3 and it will take them at least 2-to-3 more years to get this boat sailing in the right direction. Or, Mara heaves them over the side in Year 5 or 6.
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if they in fact land a QB tonight, it means they are openly admitting they fucked up.
The fact that you are in denial about this is astounding.
More or less, yes. But the Jones deal was structured in a way to give them an out after 2 years. They had a QB who took them to a playoff game and won with a bad roster around him, they signed him to a franchise QB contract but hedged that bet in a way that made it a two year commitment. Last year went down the way that it did, and now it's clear they're moving on. So that's where we are.
So everyone calling it a restart all over are overlooking the fact that this was a contingency that was built into the plan all along.
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is going to be a very uncomfortable day for those that are members of the DJFC. It's very possible his replacement is drafted in the next 12 hours or so.
It is also possible that we don't draft a QB and all of the top 6 prospects are off the board at the end of the night, and Joe Schoen states once again that they believe fully in Daniel Jones.
Agree. If we go WR (extremely possible), and don't get Penix/Nix later in the first round, get ready for the "we believe in DJ" rhetoric.
Which I believe will be the beginning of the end for the current regime.
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I've heard you reference the Giants being 5 years away. That doesn't exist. 2-3 years max if the regime is competent.
Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are starting Year 3 and it will take them at least 2-to-3 more years to get this boat sailing in the right direction. Or, Mara heaves them over the side in Year 5 or 6.
That is because they used year 2 to undo the progress made in year 1 which set them back to square 1. This team is not in much better shape today than the team Schoen inherited. We don't have a QB, we don't have a good Oline, we don't have playmakers on offense, and we have questions up and down the D (although the Dline seems to be coming together with a high pick and trade to supplement the Gettleman pick that is the glue).
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In comment 16485501 Sean said:
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I've heard you reference the Giants being 5 years away. That doesn't exist. 2-3 years max if the regime is competent.
Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are starting Year 3 and it will take them at least 2-to-3 more years to get this boat sailing in the right direction. Or, Mara heaves them over the side in Year 5 or 6.
That is because they used year 2 to undo the progress made in year 1 which set them back to square 1. This team is not in much better shape today than the team Schoen inherited. We don't have a QB, we don't have a good Oline, we don't have playmakers on offense, and we have questions up and down the D (although the Dline seems to be coming together with a high pick and trade to supplement the Gettleman pick that is the glue).
Nailed it.
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In comment 16485488 Eric from BBI said:
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if they in fact land a QB tonight, it means they are openly admitting they fucked up.
The fact that you are in denial about this is astounding.
More or less, yes. But the Jones deal was structured in a way to give them an out after 2 years. They had a QB who took them to a playoff game and won with a bad roster around him, they signed him to a franchise QB contract but hedged that bet in a way that made it a two year commitment. Last year went down the way that it did, and now it's clear they're moving on. So that's where we are.
So everyone calling it a restart all over are overlooking the fact that this was a contingency that was built into the plan all along.
I don't know that everyone sees putting a two year out (or 2+ with the injury guarantee) into a lucrative contract for a below average player as a building block. He could have franchised Jones and let him walk this year and played Lock and this team would be in much better shape than it is today.
So yes, the bad contract he signed could have been worse. It was still a poor decision.
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In comment 16485389 UberAlias said:
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The regime inherited a team that was a mess. It was always going to be a multi-year rebuild. They are trying to secure their guy at QB. Not more to it than that.
I don't disagree with this, but there are several BBIers who claim there is NO SUCH THING as a multi-year re-build in the NFL!
There aren't. Look at the Texans and Lions. If rebuild takes 5 years there will be another regime coming in. That's the point,
Two things:
(1) there are always exceptions to the rule. But that doesn't make the exceptions the rule.
(2) And is it really just a 2-year re-build? Clearly, the Lions have several promising young players but a few were secured a while ago such as Frank Ragnow (2018) and Taylor Decker (2016).
Barkley is gone, mercifully.
If they draft a QB tonight and end the Jones catastrophe it won't guarantee success, but it will at least be a new direction in earnest. It will feel like waking up from a coma.
It would be malpractice to trade valuable capital for Burns and pay him a lot of money and then not improve the most important position. Get a QB, Joe. Sick of watching a pathetic Jones led offense.
Which moves to Schoen make that are the foundations of the rebuild? Signing Jones did not help. Keeping Barkley an extra year and then letting him walk for nothing did not help. He has not fixed the Oline, blowing a top 10 pick on it with the only solid player in the group being a player he inherited. He traded for Waller who has likely already played his last game as a Giants.
The moves for Okereke and (hopefully) Burns seem like solid rebuild moves. Robinson and Hyatt may be players, but we need an Oline and a QB before anyone will know that for sure.
I guess I just don't see substantial progress from 2021 to 2023 that you do.
His failures include:
(1) Giving Jones that ridiculous contract, and as a consequence less than a year after doing so likely having to give up a top 10 pick and then some to get another QB.
(2) Not fixing the OL despite drafting Neal, Schmitz, Ezeudu, and McKethan, and signing Glowinski.
(3) Drafting Bellinger instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson.
(4) Having to trade a second and a fifth for Burns because in two offseasons he only found one decent edge rusher, KT, and that was with the fifth pick in the draft.
(5) Not trading Barkley last year.
Whatever he does, he needs to nail this draft. No more chances. No more excuses.
His failures include:
(1) Giving Jones that ridiculous contract, and as a consequence less than a year after doing so likely having to give up a top 10 pick and then some to get another QB.
(2) Not fixing the OL despite drafting Neal, Schmitz, Ezeudu, and McKethan, and signing Glowinski.
(3) Drafting Bellinger instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson.
(4) Having to trade a second and a fifth for Burns because in two offseasons he only found one decent edge rusher, KT, and that was with the fifth pick in the draft.
(5) Not trading Barkley last year.
Whatever he does, he needs to nail this draft. No more chances. No more excuses.
I also give him credit for signing Okereke.
Signing Campbell was another failure but it was low cost.
I supported the Waller trade and still think it was a reasonable move so I won't list it as a failure, but it obviously didn't work out.
The defense mechanism of trying to rationalize the DJ decision is weak. They own that. And they're allowed to fail sometimes.
The 2022 offense wanted to run the ball out of the read option, and complete a high volume of short passes.
The 2024 offense wants to ....
When I look at the roster, I don't think there is an answer.
I can understand the DJ situation, but the overall situation is harder to justify. Gotta take a big step forward this year.
Maybe I'm underrating Bowen, but this doesn't look like a very impressive coaching staff.
The 2022 offense wanted to run the ball out of the read option, and complete a high volume of short passes.
The 2024 offense wants to ....
When I look at the roster, I don't think there is an answer.
One (possible, because it's just a guess) correction to that is that in 2022 they might have wanted to give Jones more responsibility but Daboll freaked out after the terrible interception on opening day in Tennessee. After that he completely took the ball out of Jones's hands and ran the remedial offense.
I wonder if Daboll actually got to execute what he originally planned in 2022.
I still can't believe they paid Jones after having to conduct such a high wire act. It's so colossally stupid I have a hard time believing it wasn't an ownership mandate.
If he's fired and Schoen stays, we're in trouble I fear.
He'd be Mara's guy.
exactly these posts are mind boggling.
they have already made 18 draft picks.
in 2022 they had the most draft capital of any team (2023 they were 19th).
8 of their picks were day 1 or 2.
2 of them were top 10.
all of those 18 players are still here and the 6 (+/-) that join them will comprise half of the freaking roster and starters (a handful more were UDFAs still around or picks they made in buffalo they claimed still on rookie deals).
by last year they only had a handful of first contract holdovers still playing (i think just mckinney, ojulari among starters).
this is and has been entirely THEIR team, and after this draft it's not just their team it's almost entirely THEIR draft picks and free agent signings/trades.
Which moves to Schoen make that are the foundations of the rebuild? Signing Jones did not help. Keeping Barkley an extra year and then letting him walk for nothing did not help. He has not fixed the Oline, blowing a top 10 pick on it with the only solid player in the group being a player he inherited. He traded for Waller who has likely already played his last game as a Giants.
The moves for Okereke and (hopefully) Burns seem like solid rebuild moves. Robinson and Hyatt may be players, but we need an Oline and a QB before anyone will know that for sure.
I guess I just don't see substantial progress from 2021 to 2023 that you do.
I still wonder how much freedom Schoen actually has for some of these things. There are rumblings that even now, Mara doesn't want to trade up for a QB. He was absolutely in love with Barkley and seems to be in love with Jones.
I'm not trying to absolve or exhonerate Schoen. He's made some decisions that haven't worked out to catastrophic effect last season. I just wonder if he were truly unfettered if he wouldn't have traded Barkley (or at least not extended/tagged him) or let Jones test the free agent market to see what his true value was. Obviously I don't have inside information, but the contract read to me like a maneuver that would allow Schoen to appease Mara and Jones while giving him an escape hatch once Mara was satisfied that Jones wasn't the guy. At least that's what I'm hoping was going on here. Probably a fantasy. We'll never know, I guess.
We can say, 'Admit your mistakes and move on' all we want, and that is what we should do here.
But what a disaster.
When it comes to offensive identity - it's synonymous with who the QB is. You can change everything else, but if the QB has fatal flaws, the offensive is going to look and be the same.
We can say, 'Admit your mistakes and move on' all we want, and that is what we should do here.
But what a disaster.
forget the evaluation, the guy got hurt. 1 major surgery to his legs and the other a part of the body that can lead to long term problem/retirement (for the 2nd time).
he is a player that takes a lot of hits as a running QB and it's the NFL - injuries happen. that's why contracts are usually only guaranteed for 2 years or less.
One could argue this is the first time they've had the handcuffs taken off. Up until now they've had not so subtle direction to make Jones/Barkley work. Well now Barkley is gone and regardless of what happens tonight, Jones is not the future of the team, even if he ends up occupying the spot another season or so.
Nonetheless, Mara has a massive hard on for him. I'm sure Jones and his agent were talking to Mara throughout the negotiations- "Daniel wants nothing more than to be a Giant for life / Daniel is really hurt by the offers he's getting"
Mara leaned on JS. Jones and his team knew JS was over a barrel. And that's how a $10 M player gets $40 M per year.
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or spend even more draft capital to move up to replace a player we guaranteed $82M to 12 months ago.
We can say, 'Admit your mistakes and move on' all we want, and that is what we should do here.
But what a disaster.
forget the evaluation, the guy got hurt. 1 major surgery to his legs and the other a part of the body that can lead to long term problem/retirement (for the 2nd time).
he is a player that takes a lot of hits as a running QB and it's the NFL - injuries happen. that's why contracts are usually only guaranteed for 2 years or less.
Before the injuries, it was clear it was a mistake. After the injuries, the other two QBs reinforced this.
forget the evaluation, the guy got hurt. 1 major surgery to his legs and the other a part of the body that can lead to long term problem/retirement (for the 2nd time).
he is a player that takes a lot of hits as a running QB and it's the NFL - injuries happen. that's why contracts are usually only guaranteed for 2 years or less.
I think you under sell the mistake.
If the ceiling as you've pointed out to date far was middle of the road, then layer on prior injuries, the state of the line, and style of play -- the risk profile was pretty high.
When faced with two years or less, they should have gone with the less.
No we aren't. Use Detroit as an example. They brought in Campbell at HC and they started building a team identity. The moves they made were in a larger context of what they were building. They did not win instantly, but you can see the straight line between where they started and where they are.
What are the Giants building? Are we just trying to grab talent and plug them in wherever there are holes (which are everywhere)? What was the plan signing Jones to the extension and how did it fit with the intended future state of this team? If he was not the future, why sign him at all? Was Barkley part of the future? Why sign him for one year and then let him walk?
This team appears to many to be making decisions year to year, position by position, not building within some kind of framework. Maybe others see the direction, but I think most of us don't.
We can say, 'Admit your mistakes and move on' all we want, and that is what we should do here.
But what a disaster.
Agreed.
Oof, that fails. So don't trade but let Barkley leave for nothing, add blocking tight ends, and IOLs. Let the backup QB with legs leave, replace him with a big armed statute.
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forget the evaluation, the guy got hurt. 1 major surgery to his legs and the other a part of the body that can lead to long term problem/retirement (for the 2nd time).
he is a player that takes a lot of hits as a running QB and it's the NFL - injuries happen. that's why contracts are usually only guaranteed for 2 years or less.
I think you under sell the mistake.
If the ceiling as you've pointed out to date far was middle of the road, then layer on prior injuries, the state of the line, and style of play -- the risk profile was pretty high.
When faced with two years or less, they should have gone with the less.
with the way the market trended he is being paid the same as other middle tier starters who have been inconsistent, the biggest differentiator is injuries. at this moment baker mayfield has about the same amount guaranteed to him as jones, he's been effectively cut 2x. so had you tagged jones last year then moved on and signed baker as you had suggested a few months ago (pretending he had gotten to FA) to even a 1 year deal, you are paying out in total the same thing and imo not in a different position.
so if you wanted to have a starter level qb on the roster it was going to cost what it cost whether you guaranteed the 2nd year to get the upside of the extra 2 option years, or tagged then replaced with a different starter level qb this year.
the only way to save money would have been signing/trading for a backup level player for less (fields, minshew, tyrod, darnold, brissett, etc). or signing russ but there was no way to predict broncos would eat his contract and he'd be available for minimum. and even if there were he probably still picks steelers since they have the better roster.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
I don't really agree with that take. I think his injuries at this point have pushed the Giants into making this call. He had to wear off the stink that was Judge/Garrett had a good year for us and we made the playoffs under Daboll...and the offensive line early in the year was just unplayable.
At this point they have to move on just because of the questions about his injuries and future but its football...that happens sometimes.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
Nonetheless, Mara has a massive hard on for him. I'm sure Jones and his agent were talking to Mara throughout the negotiations- "Daniel wants nothing more than to be a Giant for life / Daniel is really hurt by the offers he's getting"
Mara leaned on JS. Jones and his team knew JS was over a barrel. And that's how a $10 M player gets $40 M per year.
Agreed 100%.
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
is there a 3rd option to complain about both and pretend it would have been smarter to draft malik willis 80 picks higher than he went instead of thibs?
The question we are all facing as we follow the Giants pursuit of a QB is whether they are being opportunistic or desperate. You, obviously view the situation as desperate; I view it at opportunistic. It's not like I think Jones is the best thing since melted cheese on a burger, but I don't think he would've received the contract he did if Daboll didn't think he could win with him...and Daboll is a much better judge of QB talent than you and I combined, especially a QB he worked with day in and day out. Of course that was following Jones's sole injury-free season.
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
I disagree. It's possible (maybe even likely) that Daboll and Schoen still believe they can win a Super Bowl with a healthy Jones, but recognize the injury risk with him and view having the 6th overall pick as an opportunity to fortify the most important position in sports. This is how I would view it if I were them.
The question we are all facing as we follow the Giants pursuit of a QB is whether they are being opportunistic or desperate. You, obviously view the situation as desperate; I view it at opportunistic. It's not like I think Jones is the best thing since melted cheese on a burger, but I don't think he would've received the contract he did if Daboll didn't think he could win with him...and Daboll is a much better judge of QB talent than you and I combined, especially a QB he worked with day in and day out. Of course that was following Jones's sole injury-free season.
It’s not “even likely”. They’ve scouted QBs in two straight drafts.
Burrow and Herbert suffered season ending injuries and there is zero consideration to draft a replacement. Cousins got a monster new deal off a major injury and 40 year old Rodgers is coming back off the same with zero talk of drafting their replacements.
They are looking for a replacement because of his poor play over 5 seasons, not because of injuries. I don't care how they spin it, thats the truth.
Burrow and Herbert suffered season ending injuries and there is zero consideration to draft a replacement. Cousins got a monster new deal off a major injury and 40 year old Rodgers is coming back off the same with zero talk of drafting their replacements.
They are looking for a replacement because of his poor play over 5 seasons, not because of injuries. I don't care how they spin it, thats the truth.
Completely. The injuries are how they save face on the evaluation and the contract, and let Jones down easy publicly, but if he was playing well before the injuries they would not be looking at the QBs the way they are.
Burrow and Herbert suffered season ending injuries and there is zero consideration to draft a replacement. Cousins got a monster new deal off a major injury and 40 year old Rodgers is coming back off the same with zero talk of drafting their replacements.
They are looking for a replacement because of his poor play over 5 seasons, not because of injuries. I don't care how they spin it, thats the truth.
you may be right but if that's the case then they will cut him as soon as he can pass a physical and before he steps on a practice field with the possibility of reinjuring himself and triggering an extra $23m.
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
I disagree. It's possible (maybe even likely) that Daboll and Schoen still believe they can win a Super Bowl with a healthy Jones, but recognize the injury risk with him and view having the 6th overall pick as an opportunity to fortify the most important position in sports. This is how I would view it if I were them.
The question we are all facing as we follow the Giants pursuit of a QB is whether they are being opportunistic or desperate. You, obviously view the situation as desperate; I view it at opportunistic. It's not like I think Jones is the best thing since melted cheese on a burger, but I don't think he would've received the contract he did if Daboll didn't think he could win with him...and Daboll is a much better judge of QB talent than you and I combined, especially a QB he worked with day in and day out. Of course that was following Jones's sole injury-free season.
I can't get myself there. Nothing points to Schoen and Daboll believing they can win a Superbowl with Jones. Maybe you can point to that last year, when they made a colossal mistake giving him that contract. But it's clear they have realized their mistake and are ready to move on.
Only question now is if they can maneuver the draft to get their guy.
Burrow and Herbert suffered season ending injuries and there is zero consideration to draft a replacement. Cousins got a monster new deal off a major injury and 40 year old Rodgers is coming back off the same with zero talk of drafting their replacements.
They are looking for a replacement because of his poor play over 5 seasons, not because of injuries. I don't care how they spin it, thats the truth.
ACL injury is different than two neck injuries. The Colts moved on after Peyton suffered his and landed the top pick. This isn't too crazy.
The Giants are moving on because the structure of his contract enables an out and the previously mentioned neck injuries.
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Please stop with the Jones injuries excuses. They are moving on from him because of his play, not because of his injuries.
Burrow and Herbert suffered season ending injuries and there is zero consideration to draft a replacement. Cousins got a monster new deal off a major injury and 40 year old Rodgers is coming back off the same with zero talk of drafting their replacements.
They are looking for a replacement because of his poor play over 5 seasons, not because of injuries. I don't care how they spin it, thats the truth.
ACL injury is different than two neck injuries. The Colts moved on after Peyton suffered his and landed the top pick. This isn't too crazy.
The Giants are moving on because the structure of his contract enables an out and the previously mentioned neck injuries.
You really think the primary reason the Giants are looking to move on is because of the neck injuries?
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
I'd rather they not not sign backup JAGs to $82M contracts.
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In comment 16485715 Go Terps said:
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
I'd rather they not not sign backup JAGs to $82M contracts.
What's done is done. We can only look at what is best for the team going forward.
What's done is done. We can only look at what is best for the team going forward.
I don't agree. I'm going the beat reporters hold the Giants' feet to the fire. That contract has broad impacts and doesn't just go away when they draft a QB.
The 2022 offense wanted to run the ball out of the read option, and complete a high volume of short passes.
The 2024 offense wants to ....
When I look at the roster, I don't think there is an answer.
I see an identity forming, actually.
Schoen is modernizing the offense by using fewer financial resources at running back. While we may still add another piece in the draft, this group looks to have a nice balance of styles.
The signing of Lock tells me that want a QB who had the ability to get more vertical and wider. Lock can throw lasers outside the numbers in the medium and long areas.
If they actually move off Jones tonight with another QB like Maye/JMac, they are re-affirming they want a QB who can attack more areas of the field in the passing game (like Lock).
I'll wait to see if we add another WR, but the current stable of WRs look like they have the ability to give a QB those options in an expansive passing attack.
Finally, I know Dabka have a very expansive playbook. If the above pans out, they are building an offense to have an identity that will take more advantage of the modern rules/game.
*17 games. Durability matters. The signing was awful, but it's not 6 games. It's 17 games where he was only available for 4 for the full game.
Nonetheless, Mara has a massive hard on for him. I'm sure Jones and his agent were talking to Mara throughout the negotiations- "Daniel wants nothing more than to be a Giant for life / Daniel is really hurt by the offers he's getting"
Mara leaned on JS. Jones and his team knew JS was over a barrel. And that's how a $10 M player gets $40 M per year.
I don't give Schoen a pass on the Jones contract. It's too convenient to simply say it was all Mara. And I always consider the Mara factor.
Schoen could have totally misinterpreted what Jones did in 2022 as the beginning of bigger things to come. And felt comfortable doling out that contract. So many of Schoen's statements pre and post the contract absolutely support that.
And while Schoen was an outside hire, which many on the board praised, Mara could have still found a GM who was fond of Jones as a prospect.
We also should admit that the O Line has been an issue for a long time. It takes time to build it with talent and it takes time for the 5 to gel together. Schoen sign'ed 5 OL this offseason, to provide starters, depth and competition. I think we are heading in the right direction there.
There is definitely a shift in how money is allocated on this roster. JS let Barkley and McKinney go get paid insane amounts of money and instead invested in a young pass rusher, which is a very smart move.
The talk of a potential trade for Aiyuk is a sign that JS is thinking of getting a proven vet and plugging ing a need with a trade. Let's see if this gets done.
And then the QB. JS didn't draft Jones. They let him play out his 4th year without the 5th year option. Jones had a good year and stayed healthy. Daboll utilized all of Jones' talents to put him in a position to succeed and it worked.
The biggest issue I have had and that Eric has pointed out was we should have tagged Jones in 2023 and let Barkley test free agency.
The Jones signing is looking like a bad decision but the silver lining is there is an out after this season. So now that NYG is picking in the top 6 of the draft, let Schoen and Daboll have THEIR QB.
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In comment 16485715 Go Terps said:
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
I'd rather they not not sign backup JAGs to $82M contracts.
if it's fair to acknowledge signing a JAGs to $82m was a mistake is it fair to acknowledge that drafting a worse-than-JAG at #5 overall, 80 picks higher than the rest of the league, would have been a mistake? a top 10 pick is way more valuable to not waste than cap space.
or are mistakes only mistakes if you didn't endorse them?
The offseason following 2022 was a disaster. Sugarcoat it all you want. These guys went around with their heads as big as haystacks over their playoff win on the road*. Well, they had their heads handed to them this past season. Schoen and Daboll both need to be better- a lot better.
*a/k/a the greatest playoff win of all time
with the way the market trended he is being paid the same as other middle tier starters who have been inconsistent, the biggest differentiator is injuries.
I think the biggest differentiator was real commitment of real guaranteed dollars.
The Giants had the option to keep him at a 1/32M floor, and chose to keep him at a 2/82M floor. The option years at the time were nebulous and now in retrospect are worthless. As we've discussed relentlessly, the floor in the Geno Smith deal was markedly lower. The floor in the Carr deal was marginally lower.
The Geno Smith deal was such a better model. They guaranteed him one year, and because he didn't implode, they had a choice to give him year two. At least with Carr he had a few middle of the road seasons on his belt. Jones had one.
It's such a simple hypothetical to me - tag Jones and go into the 2024 UFA period with 50M fewer dollars guaranteed to him.
Every one of these scenarios guarantees fewer real dollars than what they actually did.
- Baker Mayfield, 3/100M 40M real guarantees
- Gardner Minshew - 2/25M, 15M real guarantees
- Tyrod Taylor - 2/12M, 8.5M real guarantees
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In comment 16485728 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16485715 Go Terps said:
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Certainly not at 6. They're about to pay the guy $82M for 6 games.
It was an enormously stupid moment in the team's history the moment the contract was signed.
Would you rather us keep compounding the mistake by throwing him out there just so we get more games for our investment? I am glad the organization is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
I'd rather they not not sign backup JAGs to $82M contracts.
if it's fair to acknowledge signing a JAGs to $82m was a mistake is it fair to acknowledge that drafting a worse-than-JAG at #5 overall, 80 picks higher than the rest of the league, would have been a mistake? a top 10 pick is way more valuable to not waste than cap space.
or are mistakes only mistakes if you didn't endorse them?
You keep hauling on Malik Willis, and I'll repeat that we'd have been better off picking him at the expense of Thibodeaux or Neal and letting Jones walk than what actually ended up occurring. I'd happily trade either of them for $82M in cap space.
Barkley's gone and soon Jones will be too. Our collective Giants nightmare of stupidity is almost over. Be happy!
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When faced with two years or less, they should have gone with the less.
with the way the market trended he is being paid the same as other middle tier starters who have been inconsistent, the biggest differentiator is injuries.
I think the biggest differentiator was real commitment of real guaranteed dollars.
The Giants had the option to keep him at a 1/32M floor, and chose to keep him at a 2/82M floor. The option years at the time were nebulous and now in retrospect are worthless. As we've discussed relentlessly, the floor in the Geno Smith deal was markedly lower. The floor in the Carr deal was marginally lower.
The Geno Smith deal was such a better model. They guaranteed him one year, and because he didn't implode, they had a choice to give him year two. At least with Carr he had a few middle of the road seasons on his belt. Jones had one.
It's such a simple hypothetical to me - tag Jones and go into the 2024 UFA period with 50M fewer dollars guaranteed to him.
Every one of these scenarios guarantees fewer real dollars than what they actually did.
- Baker Mayfield, 3/100M 40M real guarantees
- Gardner Minshew - 2/25M, 15M real guarantees
- Tyrod Taylor - 2/12M, 8.5M real guarantees
I think part of the issue with that is Schoen/Daboll were not 100% sold that Jones was the long term answer. If we had a repeat of 2022 in 2023 Mara would have pushed for a long term deal with Jones with more than $50M guaranteed. I also think Tampa will look dumb for what they gave to Baker Mayfield.
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When faced with two years or less, they should have gone with the less.
with the way the market trended he is being paid the same as other middle tier starters who have been inconsistent, the biggest differentiator is injuries.
I think the biggest differentiator was real commitment of real guaranteed dollars.
The Giants had the option to keep him at a 1/32M floor, and chose to keep him at a 2/82M floor. The option years at the time were nebulous and now in retrospect are worthless. As we've discussed relentlessly, the floor in the Geno Smith deal was markedly lower. The floor in the Carr deal was marginally lower.
The Geno Smith deal was such a better model. They guaranteed him one year, and because he didn't implode, they had a choice to give him year two. At least with Carr he had a few middle of the road seasons on his belt. Jones had one.
It's such a simple hypothetical to me - tag Jones and go into the 2024 UFA period with 50M fewer dollars guaranteed to him.
Every one of these scenarios guarantees fewer real dollars than what they actually did.
- Baker Mayfield, 3/100M 40M real guarantees
- Gardner Minshew - 2/25M, 15M real guarantees
- Tyrod Taylor - 2/12M, 8.5M real guarantees
the extra years weren't nebulous at the time they made they deal. they wanted them. they publicly and very descriptively explained why they wanted them. they took a shot on a player they thought was ascending and he descended (then got hurt). that is how things go.
taking a shot on malik willis wouldnt have been any different except for the fact that through 2 years he has only descended. and the opportunity cost would have been greater if you agree a 5th overall pick is more valuable than cap space. if buying an extra top 10 pick was as easy as eating $40m of cap space, I could get nyg (and about half the league) an extra top 10 pick in about 5 minutes on the OTC calculator.
taking a shot now, this year, also won't be much different except for that same equation - the opportunity cost is higher than the shot taken on jones because with the 6th overall pick in this draft the alternative is 5 potential prime years of an all pro WR on a rookie scale contract. the next jamarr chase is a lot more valuable than whatever $40m buys in FA.
we all agree with taking that shot tonight despite the risks correct? they liked jones, they took a shot they perceived to have less opportunity cost. it shouldnt be so hard to make peace with a few less overpaid players from UFA with those bust rates as high as they are.
if he sucks then gets hurt after 6 games that 4k/28/10 season will bring them just as much comfort as jones' 4k combined rushing/pass yards, 22 combined rushing/passing tds, and 6 ints that all came with better advanced metrics (QBR/EPA). none. only difference will be the lack of the 2nd year.
and you know what they will probably do if they dont pick a qb in this year's draft? rework his deal because in march 2025 if he can come back healthy that is probably in both sides best interest unless they have the #1 or #2 overall pick and know for sure they are drafting a top QB.
We don't even need to stretch our brains far to contemplate an alternative. The incremental cost of Jones over the tender was 3/128M and 50M fully guaranteed.
Xavier McKinney - 4/67/23
Saquon Barkley - 3/37.5/26
That's the alternative.
But hey, why risk your own free agents regressing, when you got the sure bet.
Cool, let's be a somewhat worse version of the Saints and Raiders.
and you know what they will probably do if they dont pick a qb in this year's draft? rework his deal because in march 2025 if he can come back healthy that is probably in both sides best interest unless they have the #1 or #2 overall pick and know for sure they are drafting a top QB.
The simple difference is they'll have the option. Which is what happens when you commit to one year in guarantees vs. two.
They have half the commitment and double the options. This so unequivocally a better route.
Cool, let's be a somewhat worse version of the Saints and Raiders.
I can't stand it. And I can't stand the notion that the Giants were somehow boxed in with no leverage, and had to franchise him at minimum.
They held all the cards, but after like they had none.
I think if significant progress is not seen this season than at minimum they will make a HC change.
We don't even need to stretch our brains far to contemplate an alternative. The incremental cost of Jones over the tender was 3/128M and 50M fully guaranteed.
Xavier McKinney - 4/67/23
Saquon Barkley - 3/37.5/26
That's the alternative.
But hey, why risk your own free agents regressing, when you got the sure bet.
they had the choice to pursue Carr last year and they instead paid Jones more. it appears they got that choice wrong but it was there for them, as was tagging Jones.
the point is that they took a shot on Jones and wanted the extra years beyond the tag. whether it was due to age or the fact that mayfield had worn out his welcome twice before, jones bargaining position was apparently better and that was what taking the shot cost. they took it right down the wire and gave him what i called a more aggressive deal than expected because in their minds "tagging him was worst case scenario". you more than anyone know i have never agreed with that with any player. in fact i think you disagreed with me that it wasnt that aggressive?
some people seem more comfortable taking the shot on whoever the best QB is with a top 10 picks any year even if they fail while getting very hot and bothered about taking a shot for $40m - which is what i find contradictory. if i gave you the choice of one asset or the other right now, an extra top 10 pick or $40m in cap space right now, which would you choose?
Cool, let's be a somewhat worse version of the Saints and Raiders.
it's almost as hilarious when people totally miss the point. the opportunity cost is what is overstated. signing jones cost them cap space they already had more of than the free market could fill with quality players.
that's why they traded a 2nd round pick for Burns instead of just spending the $150m on the free market. and why they spent a 3rd on Waller last year.
I was resigned to an outcome where he was functionally guaranteed 3/90-100. 2/82 is better. It's a kick, but a softer kick in the balls.
My wish was always tagging him, and making him prove it again. Go out and prove it and get that Lamar Jackson deal.
When I studied the Geno Smith agreement, I was even more nauseated.
They had choices, they chosen wrong, and it cost them more than double what it should have. And the fruit of that mistake potentially cost them retaining good players.
I was resigned to an outcome where he was functionally guaranteed 3/90-100. 2/82 is better. It's a kick, but a softer kick in the balls.
My wish was always tagging him, and making him prove it again. Go out and prove it and get that Lamar Jackson deal.
When I studied the Geno Smith agreement, I was even more nauseated.
They had choices, they chosen wrong, and it cost them more than double what it should have. And the fruit of that mistake potentially cost them retaining good players.
good players most didnt want to pay what they got paid and would probably consider combined almost as much of an overpay as jones (they got about $50m gtd combined, 60m in 2 year cash flows, which is more than jones had left when those contracts were signed).
both who they still could have retained if they wanted even with jones still on books this year.
so can i take that as you'd prefer a top 10 pick to having the cap room if the best thing they could have spent it on was retaining mckinney/barkley?
Depends on where in the top 10. Also, the incremental cost of the Jones contract vs. the tender is was 137M and 50M guaranteed.
If we're debating the value of that 50M guaranteed in terms of buying power? If that gets me within 1.5M of the total guarantees Sneed got, vs the 10th pick tonight, I'd choose Sneed.
Depends on where in the top 10. Also, the incremental cost of the Jones contract vs. the tender is was 137M and 50M guaranteed.
If we're debating the value of that 50M guaranteed in terms of buying power? If that gets me within 1.5M of the total guarantees Sneed got, vs the 10th pick tonight, I'd choose Sneed.
sneed wasnt just money you are also giving up more picks, which i actually agree they maybe should have done even with jones on the roster right now (just looked it up, hadnt realized all they gave up was a 2025 3rd). his cap number is 9.9m which is less than they could save by dumping waller. cant believe it ends up we functionally paid more for waller last year at age 31 than sneed at age 27. like the rumored aiyuk deal id have probably done the sneed deal.
you're brain probably broke because we have drifted off topic so let me try to steer us back - imo you can file all of what we just talked about in a drawer labeled "the OP is wrong because this is THEIR team". They made choices and like every team they weren't all right. I think it's a false narrative that they've been restricted in their decision making or that their ownership of the roster be viewed against some curve.
But if Schoen's MO is shop day two picks for good players, the money gets you access to talent you otherwise might not have. This is a novel and great tactic IMV.
If he gets Aiyuk tonight for 47, and the real cost is money, excellent.
In terms of ownership, I'm an absolutist. The day your name is on the door, that shit is yours.
By offseason three, I certainly wasn't giving Reese any flack for Gettleman's decisions.