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Excellent point from Schneier

TyreeHelmet : 4/26/2024 10:44 am
Daniel Jones enters 2024:
Revamped OL w/ depth, ANDREW THOMAS, MALIK NABERS, Wan'Dale, Hyatt, Slayton, Hodgins, Waller? + Daboll designing plays
HAS to rack 4K passing, 30+ TDs, 8 YPA, 65% completion rate or else what's the point of allocating 18ish% of cap space to him? #Giants

Schneier X - ( New Window )
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.  
Danny Kanell : 4/26/2024 10:54 am : link
Definition of insanity.
That point has been made by many  
UConn4523 : 4/26/2024 10:55 am : link
this question is what happens when it doesn’t happen - is Schoen fired? It appears no otherwise I don’t think he would have went this route.
Daniel Jones just doesn't sling it  
rocco8112 : 4/26/2024 10:55 am : link
Really, 30 TD 's from him? I think it is literally impossible. Even in this league.

He doesn't throw touchdowns. He doesn't lead the offense down the field when it counts, when the whole stadium knows you have to pass. No game winning drives.

He can run. When they work the run in, he can make some plays. Now he has a knee injury and a twice messed up neck.

30 TD's, not a snowballs chance in hell. Really.
RE: Jones has never  
bwitz : 4/26/2024 10:55 am : link
In comment 16491064 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


Permanent scholarship. I wonder what year they put him into the ring of honor?
We've been  
auxelectric : 4/26/2024 10:55 am : link
saying there's no more excuses for Jones for 4 years now. First it was Golliday, then it was Daboll, then 2nd year in Daboll's system with Waller and now Nabers.

This man is excuse proof. He'll probably play through the entire contract they gave him and the Giants will then move on.
What is the old saying  
Rjanyg : 4/26/2024 10:58 am : link
“ stats are for losers “.

I want a team that wins. I understand the Jones hate on this site. I like Jones and want him to succeed. I don’t care if he throws for 4,000 yards and 35 TD passes. I care that he helps the Giants win football games.

I wanted NYG to draft Maye, I would have understood and been happy with McCarthy. I am happy with Nabers though and am also happy we have all our draft picks this year and next year.

We can build a good football team that helps Jones or Lock win games.
Jones  
TyreeHelmet : 4/26/2024 10:59 am : link
Go reread the thread when his signing was announced. The overall most common theme was that the excuses are now over.

Then he gets a blocked field goal as a major reason for a bad year and gets year 6...LOL.
Quick hook?  
rocco8112 : 4/26/2024 10:59 am : link
It should be open competition in camp.

They can't seriously think he is the franchise QB1, even with the huge error they made with the contract.
RE: Forget the statistics  
ajr2456 : 4/26/2024 11:00 am : link
In comment 16491027 Milton said:
Quote:
He needs to play well. The offense needs to play well. The team needs to win a lot of games and not embarrass themselves in the playoffs. That's how he should be judged, not by arbitrary statistics.


Statistics aren’t arbitrary, the more yards and touchdowns you throw for the more points you score and the more games you win.
RE: What is the old saying  
TyreeHelmet : 4/26/2024 11:01 am : link
In comment 16491097 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
“ stats are for losers “.

I want a team that wins. I understand the Jones hate on this site. I like Jones and want him to succeed. I don’t care if he throws for 4,000 yards and 35 TD passes. I care that he helps the Giants win football games.

I wanted NYG to draft Maye, I would have understood and been happy with McCarthy. I am happy with Nabers though and am also happy we have all our draft picks this year and next year.

We can build a good football team that helps Jones or Lock win games.


But you are missing the key original point then. There is zero reason to allocate 20% of the cap to your QB then.

Those stats lead to touchdowns which lead to wins. And if there is any consideration that Lock is a better option then there is zero to pay Jones that money.
…..  
Micko : 4/26/2024 11:03 am : link
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.
RE: Forget the statistics  
Darwinian : 4/26/2024 11:03 am : link
In comment 16491027 Milton said:
Quote:
He needs to play well. The offense needs to play well. The team needs to win a lot of games and not embarrass themselves in the playoffs. That's how he should be judged, not by arbitrary statistics.


Statistics matter. It's how we measure performance and compare players. If Daniel Jones can't hit statistical bench marks with players like Malik Nabers, then he's not a professional QB.
RE: RE: Forget the statistics  
Darwinian : 4/26/2024 11:04 am : link
In comment 16491105 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 16491027 Milton said:


Quote:


He needs to play well. The offense needs to play well. The team needs to win a lot of games and not embarrass themselves in the playoffs. That's how he should be judged, not by arbitrary statistics.



Statistics aren’t arbitrary, the more yards and touchdowns you throw for the more points you score and the more games you win.


They're already building in excuses because they don't have faith that Daniel Jones can throw for 4000 yards 30TDs/8INTs.
RE: DJ didn't have  
santacruzom : 4/26/2024 11:06 am : link
In comment 16491026 46and2Blue said:
Quote:
many excuses left last year. It will be even less with adding weapon like Nabers and what they have spent on the offensive line. I'm not saying they were good but the line looked more functional when the like of Tyrod Taylor took the reigns.


The excuse will be that Nabers was a rookie, and that the revamped OL took most of the season to gel.
RE: …..  
ajr2456 : 4/26/2024 11:06 am : link
In comment 16491117 Micko said:
Quote:
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.


This is insulting to Eli Manning. As poorly as the Giants and Eli were in 2018 he still threw for 4200 yards.
RE: …..  
bwitz : 4/26/2024 11:06 am : link
In comment 16491117 Micko said:
Quote:
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.


Oh JFC. Now we’re comparing Jones to Eli?

Just stop.
RE: …..  
TyreeHelmet : 4/26/2024 11:07 am : link
In comment 16491117 Micko said:
Quote:
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.


Which starting QB is he unquestionable better than?

And again you are missing the point. They are allocating precious cap resources for him to perform to a level he has never approached. Unless he provides that production there is zero reason to pay him. You can find that level production anywhere.

Put another way, would you choose Minshew and 30 extra million in cap or Daniel Jones this season?
.....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 4/26/2024 11:07 am : link
Eli threw 21 TD passes with 4200 yards passing his last full season.

Yes - better than Jones.
RE: Many of us have been saying that  
rsjem1979 : 4/26/2024 11:08 am : link
In comment 16491034 Section331 said:
Quote:
this is the year there are no more excuses. Many said it after they signed Jones to that big contract, but how did that work out? There are no more excuses. I don’t want to hear about how the OL can’t protect him, or his WR’s can’t get open. 4,000 yards, 30+ TD’s is not too much to ask for in todays NFL from a guy being paid over $40M a year.

Somehow I still have the feeling that we’ll hear the same complaints if Jones falls well short of those numbers.


First time Nabers gives a "WTF" look when he's open and the ball gets dumped off he'll be labeled a "diva".
“Nabers is just a rookie”  
Jaenyg : 4/26/2024 11:12 am : link
Over/under on how many times that excuse gets said this year when DJ doesn’t progress?
RE: There will just be more excuses  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2024 11:14 am : link
In comment 16491040 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
One of the O Line will gte hurt, a WR, no viable TE, etc... Always another excuse. Always another reason why the Giants 'screwed up' Jones and no actual accountability for the player when he is actually on the field.

Clearly there has been enough negative talk on the message board that now it’s just commonplace to spew this kind of nonsense.
Jones will be the greatest big game hunter  
Ben in Tampa : 4/26/2024 11:15 am : link
Of NFL head coaching careers in league history
Giants  
Giants : 4/26/2024 11:16 am : link
Didn't draft a QB and all the DJ haters come out. Still crying
RE: “Nabers is just a rookie”  
ryanmkeane : 4/26/2024 11:16 am : link
In comment 16491165 Jaenyg said:
Quote:
Over/under on how many times that excuse gets said this year when DJ doesn’t progress?

What’s the over/under on how many times you’ll post this same message before the season starts?
..  
Named Later : 4/26/2024 11:18 am : link
Just for future reference --

What would be the Cap Hit if Jones is cut post-June 1st in 2025 ?
RE: Jones has never  
Milton : 4/26/2024 11:19 am : link
In comment 16491064 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.
He had to win in 2022 in order to get a second contract.
RE: Giants  
TyreeHelmet : 4/26/2024 11:22 am : link
In comment 16491193 Giants said:
Quote:
Didn't draft a QB and all the DJ haters come out. Still crying


I want the Giants to win and ultimately actually contend for a Super Bowl.

Paying 18% of the cap to a QB who is bottom 5 in the league ( and thats being generous) does not help them achieve that.

Has nothing to do with "DJ haters". I am sick of watching losing football and bad offense. I want more from the team I follow.
RE: RE: There will just be more excuses  
bwitz : 4/26/2024 11:24 am : link
In comment 16491179 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 16491040 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


One of the O Line will gte hurt, a WR, no viable TE, etc... Always another excuse. Always another reason why the Giants 'screwed up' Jones and no actual accountability for the player when he is actually on the field.


Clearly there has been enough negative talk on the message board that now it’s just commonplace to spew this kind of nonsense.


Nonsense. Lmfao. Yeah, ok.
RE: Giants  
bwitz : 4/26/2024 11:28 am : link
In comment 16491193 Giants said:
Quote:
Didn't draft a QB and all the DJ haters come out. Still crying


And moron DJFC members? Still a bunch of fuckin Magoo’s; can’t see shit that’s right in front of their faces.
For the sake of all of us BBI'ers and Giants fans, I sincerely  
GiantBlue : 4/26/2024 11:36 am : link
hope Daniel really takes a step forward both in his recovery and development.

It would be really exciting to take the best of Daniel and match it with this suddenly gifted offense.

If Daniel becomes a top 10 QB this season....WE ALL WIN!!!

Let's go Daniel!
The haters  
Giants : 4/26/2024 11:37 am : link
Still think they know best. You just can't make this stuff up
RE: DJ didn't have  
k2tampa : 4/26/2024 11:50 am : link
In comment 16491026 46and2Blue said:
Quote:
many excuses left last year. It will be even less with adding weapon like Nabers and what they have spent on the offensive line. I'm not saying they were good but the line looked more functional when the like of Tyrod Taylor took the reigns.


Revisionist history is something to behold. Yes, the offensive line looked better, but it was mainly because the starters were coming back. Thomas and Schmitz were back from injury and Bredeson moved back to guard. Glowinski was in for McKethan, then they added Pugh, who even though he wasn't good was a huge improvement. Taylor didn't have to play with practice squad players at guard (yes, that happened, two of them in one game in fact), Ezeudu at LT, Lemieux at guard.
RE: RE: DJ didn't have  
Four Aces : 4/26/2024 11:53 am : link
In comment 16491356 k2tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 16491026 46and2Blue said:


Quote:


many excuses left last year. It will be even less with adding weapon like Nabers and what they have spent on the offensive line. I'm not saying they were good but the line looked more functional when the like of Tyrod Taylor took the reigns.



Revisionist history is something to behold. Yes, the offensive line looked better, but it was mainly because the starters were coming back. Thomas and Schmitz were back from injury and Bredeson moved back to guard. Glowinski was in for McKethan, then they added Pugh, who even though he wasn't good was a huge improvement. Taylor didn't have to play with practice squad players at guard (yes, that happened, two of them in one game in fact), Ezeudu at LT, Lemieux at guard.

Stop you’re killing them with facts
RE: Daniel Jones just doesn't sling it  
Amtoft : 4/26/2024 11:53 am : link
In comment 16491082 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
Really, 30 TD 's from him? I think it is literally impossible. Even in this league.

He doesn't throw touchdowns. He doesn't lead the offense down the field when it counts, when the whole stadium knows you have to pass. No game winning drives.

He can run. When they work the run in, he can make some plays. Now he has a knee injury and a twice messed up neck.

30 TD's, not a snowballs chance in hell. Really.


I mean he threw 24 TDs in 12 games his rookie year... so snowballs in hell much be a snow day.
RE: DJ didn't have  
bluewave : 4/26/2024 11:54 am : link
In comment 16491026 46and2Blue said:
Quote:
many excuses left last year. It will be even less with adding weapon like Nabers and what they have spent on the offensive line. I'm not saying they were good but the line looked more functional when the like of Tyrod Taylor took the reigns.

Did you look at the OL play? There's a reason there is a new OL coach here. It doesn't matter what they spent on the OL... They played like absolute shit. Worst OL play I've ever seen in all my years as NY Giants fan.. THE F'IN WORST!!!
RE: RE: …..  
JoeSchoens11 : 4/26/2024 11:55 am : link
In comment 16491133 bwitz said:
Quote:
In comment 16491117 Micko said:


Quote:


Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.



Oh JFC. Now we’re comparing Jones to Eli?

Just stop.
We’re all trying to deal with the qb situation the best we can. The optimistic view is that DJ was ok in ‘22 with only 2 stud players (and one of them playing a non-valued position). The rest weren’t even average nfl players.

2023’s line was probably even worse than 2013. That year Eli had a 2:3 td/int ratio. Eli looked like he didn’t belong in the nfl 2-years after being SB MVP and 1-year after being a pro-bowler.

Point being that when an oline plays at that level there’s not much any qb can do so calling ‘22 an aberration and thinking we’re going to see ‘23-type numbers from DJ just doesn’t make sense.
RE: Forget the statistics  
ElitoCanton : 4/26/2024 11:56 am : link
The stats are not arbitrary. Those are baseline stats for top QBs. And you don't pay a non top QB 50 million.


In comment 16491027 Milton said:
Quote:
He needs to play well. The offense needs to play well. The team needs to win a lot of games and not embarrass themselves in the playoffs. That's how he should be judged, not by arbitrary statistics.
RE: ..  
Named Later : 4/26/2024 11:57 am : link
In comment 16491207 Named Later said:
Quote:
Just for future reference --

What would be the Cap Hit if Jones is cut post-June 1st in 2025 ?


If I read it correctly, and he gets designated as a post-June 1 cut next year....he's $22M in dead cap space.

So he gets this season to prove what he's worth.
RE: …..  
Ivan15 : 4/26/2024 12:57 pm : link
In comment 16491117 Micko said:
Quote:
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.
_______________
You need to check Eli’s stats. He was good in the McAdoo offense until the team quit on McAdoo and he was good in Barkley’s first season.
RE: RE: ..  
MojoEd : 4/26/2024 1:04 pm : link
In comment 16491395 Named Later said:
Quote:
In comment 16491207 Named Later said:


Quote:


Just for future reference --

What would be the Cap Hit if Jones is cut post-June 1st in 2025 ?



If I read it correctly, and he gets designated as a post-June 1 cut next year....he's $22M in dead cap space.

So he gets this season to prove what he's worth.

Is that before or after his $23m injury guarantee kicks in?
RE: Many of us have been saying that  
56goat : 4/26/2024 1:08 pm : link
In comment 16491034 Section331 said:
Quote:
this is the year there are no more excuses. Many said it after they signed Jones to that big contract, but how did that work out? There are no more excuses. I don’t want to hear about how the OL can’t protect him, or his WR’s can’t get open. 4,000 yards, 30+ TD’s is not too much to ask for in todays NFL from a guy being paid over $40M a year.

Somehow I still have the feeling that we’ll hear the same complaints if Jones falls well short of those numbers.


I don't expect him to be physically able to play a full season, so that situation may resolve itself.
RE: What is the old saying  
56goat : 4/26/2024 1:10 pm : link
In comment 16491097 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
“ stats are for losers “.

I want a team that wins. I understand the Jones hate on this site. I like Jones and want him to succeed. I don’t care if he throws for 4,000 yards and 35 TD passes. I care that he helps the Giants win football games.

I wanted NYG to draft Maye, I would have understood and been happy with McCarthy. I am happy with Nabers though and am also happy we have all our draft picks this year and next year.

We can build a good football team that helps Jones or Lock win games.


"Excuses are for wusses"
RE: …..  
56goat : 4/26/2024 1:15 pm : link
In comment 16491117 Micko said:
Quote:
Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.


When DJ wins division and conference championships, 2 SBs, 2 SB MVPs, 2 game winning drives in the last minute of the SB, makes even 1 throw like the throw to Manningham in the SB, leads 2 TD drives at the end of the 4th quarter in Dallas to get the Giants in the playoffs, etc then you can start to compare DJ to Eli. DJ doesn't even belong in that conversation.
RE: RE: …..  
rsjem1979 : 4/26/2024 1:23 pm : link
In comment 16491654 56goat said:
Quote:
In comment 16491117 Micko said:


Quote:


Quick question - did Eli look any better than Jones in the last few years of his career? The offense was terrible and so was Eli. The idea that DJ cant be a decent QB with better pieces around is ridiculous. He is not elite - just like Eli was never elite. Some QBs need more than 2 seconds to throw. Let’s see what happens. Folks are now acting like he is the worst QB in the league. We literally have never seen him with a functioning / high-level offensive line.



When DJ wins division and conference championships, 2 SBs, 2 SB MVPs, 2 game winning drives in the last minute of the SB, makes even 1 throw like the throw to Manningham in the SB, leads 2 TD drives at the end of the 4th quarter in Dallas to get the Giants in the playoffs, etc then you can start to compare DJ to Eli. DJ doesn't even belong in that conversation.


Leave the actual throw out of it because nobody in his right mind would argue Jones has that in his arsenal, Jones can't make the Manningham play because he can't make that read.
RE: RE: DJ didn't have  
Greg from LI : 4/26/2024 1:23 pm : link
In comment 16491356 k2tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 16491026 46and2Blue said:


Quote:


many excuses left last year. It will be even less with adding weapon like Nabers and what they have spent on the offensive line. I'm not saying they were good but the line looked more functional when the like of Tyrod Taylor took the reigns.



Revisionist history is something to behold. Yes, the offensive line looked better, but it was mainly because the starters were coming back. Thomas and Schmitz were back from injury and Bredeson moved back to guard. Glowinski was in for McKethan, then they added Pugh, who even though he wasn't good was a huge improvement. Taylor didn't have to play with practice squad players at guard (yes, that happened, two of them in one game in fact), Ezeudu at LT, Lemieux at guard.


Taylor and Jones played with the same supporting cast versus Miami and Taylor simply played better.
RE: For the sake of all of us BBI'ers and Giants fans, I sincerely  
cosmicj : 4/26/2024 1:27 pm : link
In comment 16491299 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
hope Daniel really takes a step forward both in his recovery and development.

It would be really exciting to take the best of Daniel and match it with this suddenly gifted offense.

If Daniel becomes a top 10 QB this season....WE ALL WIN!!!

Let's go Daniel!


DJ really took a step forward at the end of 2022 and had a couple of the best games of his career. What did that get us? Worse than nothing.
It seems crazy  
bigbluehoya : 4/26/2024 1:36 pm : link
To conclude that the team is doubling down on Jones or decisively deciding to give him more runway based on their inability to get their hands on Maye.

Forcing the issue on a JJM/Penix at 6 would have been a first-cousin to the bad decision making that got us Jones in the first place.

If you disagree with their evaluation of those prospects, that can be an interesting discussion in its own right.

But at a basic level it seems re-assuring that they didn’t want to settle on a guy they didn’t have conviction in.

At a minimum, this should be the death of the “you can always just trade up to get the QB you want” crowd. 2 to tango and etc.

And it won’t happen, but it should also be generally accepted that meaningless wins in already-failed seasons can come at a very real cost. (Of course, that should not be instructive to coaches and players, but anyone who ever talked down to others hoping for losses was not the adult in the room that they held themselves out to be).

From a cap perspective, the silver lining is that the existence of the Jones contract would have been “wasting” a good portion of the benefit of having a QB on a rookie deal.

And hopefully there are 6 fewer teams in 2025 that will be QB hungry. Regardless of the quality of that class, hard to foresee that being a bad thing.

But yeah, being in QB jail doesn’t feel awesome.

Have to hope that what is being done now is setting a better table for the meal to be served when they are able to get the QB in the crosshairs.
RE: “Nabers is just a rookie”  
santacruzom : 4/26/2024 4:31 pm : link
In comment 16491165 Jaenyg said:
Quote:
Over/under on how many times that excuse gets said this year when DJ doesn’t progress?


Exactly. It's that, and/or "The OL has been revamped and it always takes at least half the season for a new OL to gel."
There is a correlation between lofty QB stats and wins...  
Milton : 4/29/2024 7:19 am : link
...but correlation doesn't always equal causation. The goal is wins, both in the regular season and the playoffs, and Jones should be judged on his contribution to winning. If it comes in the form of lofty statistics, great. If he is contributing to wins and the team going deep into the playoffs without the lofty stats, so be it.

Nobody cares about excuses, not ownership, not the coaching staff, not the fans. Jones will be judged by all parties involved based on how well he plays. We all know the game well enough to judge it with our eyes, we don't need to read it on a stat sheet to validate what we see.
All I can say is  
section125 : 4/29/2024 7:34 am : link
good luck with that happening.
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