By the looks of it, we just acquired an elite level WR who has the ability to one day be mentioned amongst the names Chase, Hill, and Jefferson. In any normal year we would be ecstatic to get a blue chip talent.
However, many of us were so invested in and excited by the chance to definitively turn the page toward a new era and put behind the losing of what has defined the Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley era. Regardless of which QB the Giants could have taken last night -- Maye, McCarthy, Penix, Nix... Many of us were yearning for a sign that things will be different moving forward and probably more than anything wanted to see a clear end to the Daniel Jones era, and a plan for the position to offer hope to the fan base that we may have an upward trajectory.
We clearly did not get that. I feel a sense of loss in this respect. Loss of opportunity. Fair or not, Daniel Jones has symbolized a half decade of losing football, and his mere presence is a strange dark cloud that is still here... It feels like yet another half ass measure from this front office and ownership. Barkley gone, but we just can't seem to rid ourselves of that other guy. I may be crazy but I would feel infinitely better if they cut Jones after he passes his physical post June 1 that there will be real competition at QB again.
I sure hope Schoen and Daboll have a plan at QB, or else they need to start packing their bags, and I've been a supporter of theirs. Any asshats able to chime in?
- Eric (4/23/2024)
- Eric (4/23/2024)
Another Eric quote: "It can always get worse."
Wise words.
- Eric (4/23/2024)
"Take your head out of the oven."
- Mrs. Eric.
- Eric (4/23/2024)
It's true. But I sense many more people are dissappointed now than if they had gone QB.
But I'd imagine a bunch of BBI'ers would be pissed had the Giants traded up for McCarthy, as most of us were speculating.
Schoen and Daboll probably think Giants are closer than most think and need to add 5-6 good players to the roster this year including FA, trades, and draft.
Let’s say Giants gave up the farm for Maye, won 6 games this year because they didn’t add anyone else to the team.
Then let’s say Giants ended up with the 8th pick, but it went to New England. And then let’s say they are without a 3rd or 4th rounder in 2025 as well.
The trade for that draft capital would have been a gamble on Maye being a fantastic QB. Maybe Giants liked him a lot but realized it was too much to give up knowing that the roster is simply not there yet.
Good to know someone out there actually cares about winning.
This is going be a dreary place in November.
As fans, and Giants fans in particular, we should want more. We should want to path towards being a real top team for a period of time. A team that competes in and can win actual big games against actual good teams. That is what I want.
We had a chance to open a door that might lead in that direction last night. We chose not to open it. Now we are living in a world of chasing the 7 seed.
Schoen and Daboll probably think Giants are closer than most think and need to add 5-6 good players to the roster this year including FA, trades, and draft.
Let’s say Giants gave up the farm for Maye, won 6 games this year because they didn’t add anyone else to the team.
Then let’s say Giants ended up with the 8th pick, but it went to New England. And then let’s say they are without a 3rd or 4th rounder in 2025 as well.
The trade for that draft capital would have been a gamble on Maye being a fantastic QB. Maybe Giants liked him a lot but realized it was too much to give up knowing that the roster is simply not there yet.
Maye was their top QB choice, but they weren't to lose future draft capital to get him. Nothing wrong with that decision. They clearly did their homework on the QB's. I was so relieved they didn't draft JJM. If a guy like Penix was there in the second, maybe they take a run, but we will never know.
Quote:
Mrs. BBI would give Go Terps a run for his money on Daniel Jones comments.
Good to know someone out there actually cares about winning.
This is going be a dreary place in November.
I played a bunch of clips this morning review the Nabers pick. Every time they mentioned Jones, my wife would yell at the TV (and she wasn't really paying attention).
Second this. I think he is the sleeper of the entire draft.
I think you may be mistaking opinions with zealotry.
It is possible to be disappointed that the Giants didn't select a QB in a QB heavy draft, but also realize that it is not the driving force of their lives.
Before you start telling everyone that is disappointed they are fanatical idiots, maybe understand the context of what you are reading - people expressing opinions about the NFL draft.
I'll be wearing my optimistic hat in September.
Life goes on.
Yet you could not raise your daughter to avoid Redskins fans?
As fans, and Giants fans in particular, we should want more. We should want to path towards being a real top team for a period of time. A team that competes in and can win actual big games against actual good teams. That is what I want.
We had a chance to open a door that might lead in that direction last night. We chose not to open it. Now we are living in a world of chasing the 7 seed.
That door swings both ways. Maye could turn out to be a colossal bust, leaving us with no draft capital in 2025 if we had submitted to NE's demands. He could also turn out to be mediocre or a world beater. It's not 100% guarantee, but if 2 of the 3 options turn out to be true, we'd be screwed. It's a 1 in 3 chance as I see it. JMO
I guess we are not seeing the same posts. There are a few on the lunatic fringe on every topic because this is BBI. What I am mostly seeing is that people are a disappointed that the best opportunity we will likely have to upgrade QB just went by, and we are all staring down the barrel of another Daniel Jones led season.
Nabers is an amazing talent. So was Barkley. With no threat at QB the concern is whether or not that player will move the needle on the Giants scoring more points?
Quote:
This sums it up. Right now we are on a path that will land us as a low end playoff team every couple of years depending on injuries, bounces, schedules, etc.
As fans, and Giants fans in particular, we should want more. We should want to path towards being a real top team for a period of time. A team that competes in and can win actual big games against actual good teams. That is what I want.
We had a chance to open a door that might lead in that direction last night. We chose not to open it. Now we are living in a world of chasing the 7 seed.
That door swings both ways. Maye could turn out to be a colossal bust, leaving us with no draft capital in 2025 if we had submitted to NE's demands. He could also turn out to be mediocre or a world beater. It's not 100% guarantee, but if 2 of the 3 options turn out to be true, we'd be screwed. It's a 1 in 3 chance as I see it. JMO
Yeah there is uncertainty with QBs, for sure. There is uncertainty at other positions too. Less than QB, but its not a lock that Nabers is going to be an all pro.
Here's the thing though. There will always be uncertainty at QB, whether it's 2024 or when Jones chooses to relinquish his position in 2034. And hitting on a QB is so big. If Nabers hits big, it will be good, it will be fun, it will help improve the team. But if Maye (or whatever QB) hits big, it will change your life as a fan. You will be in big games all the time. You will be competing for Super Bowls. That's why you take swings at QB
If JJM was legitimately seen as being right there with the top 3, it would have been a perfect match for us. The fact that NYG and MN (presumably) put on the full court press to trade up for Maye but were declined but neglected to show the same urgency for JJ and no one else like Denver or Raiders traded up for him either suggests, IMO, that there was a perceived gap there bigger than some in media believed. Which is unfortunate for us.
Just my opinion, of course.
If JJM was legitimately seen as being right there with the top 3, it would have been a perfect match for us. The fact that NYG and MN (presumably) put on the full court press to trade up for Maye but were declined but neglected to show the same urgency for JJ and no one else like Denver or Raiders traded up for him either suggests, IMO, that there was a perceived gap there bigger than some in media believed. Which is unfortunate for us.
Just my opinion, of course.
I agree on the evaluation. While I wanted the Giants to do something to try and improve our QB position, I told my wife when the Giants were on the clock that I was praying they did not take McCarthy. I think he will struggle in the NFL.
I would have been fine with Penix, or a trade down to accumulate picks and maybe take a flyer on Nix later. But the point is I was hoping to see some attempt at fixing the most glaring hole in this roster - one I think that is having a multiplier effect of limiting the potential of other players.
I really like Nabers, but I can't help thinking we just put in a pool instead of fixing the crumbling foundation.
Tiki Barber made a great point while the idiot next to him was ranting about the Giants MUST take a QB.
Tiki said, "Everything the Schoen has done this offseason points to them wanting to win NOW. Not to start over with a new QB."
Earlier in the week, Paul Schwartz made a great point that is totally true, and I didn't hear anyone else make.
Schwartz said, "I'm not sure Schoen and Daboll want to invite a big QB controversy right now, and that's what they'd get if the draft a QB. Starting from training camp, Daboll would face questions EVERY DAY, when's the new guy going to play? If Jones sails a pass high, or loses a game, when's the new guy going to play?"
Obviously you deal with that if you do it, but Schwartz is not wrong. Regardless of how many times they say Jones is the starter, that absolutely would happen.
Then there are many NFL people, current and former, who don't view Jones with the negative eye the fans and media do. They all thought the Giants would take a WR. Hell, even Mel Kiper said, "The Giants had a really long list of problems last year, and Jones was like number 30 on that list."
And a lot of people -- willfully, it seems, still don't understand the draft.
Look at the premise of this post. The Giants -- who did all that work on McCarthy, must not have liked him.
No.
I'm sure they liked him just fine. But on their draft board, he clearly was on a lower row than Nabers (and apparently, Maye). You follow your board. You follow your process.
So why do all the work on a guy like McCarthy? Is it just smoke and mirrors?
No.
They spent time on (and had dinner with) Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold, too. Then took Barkley. Sure, too high for a RB, but Gettleman wasn't wrong that Barkley was a better prospect.
Sometimes you get a chance to acquire these kids later. Like Drew Lock. You can bet that they had spent time with Lock during Lock's draft class. When they went after him, a few months back, they already knew stuff about him.
It's call a long-term view. Fans don't get that either.
Another thread today asks: Which positions will NYG target in Day 2 and 3?
No.
That's the wrong fucking question. Teams don't target positions. They take the BPA, and need is the tie breaker between two players with comparable grades.
The Giants priorities are NOT the fan priorities (and vice versa).
They are not drafting to just fill immediate holes for next season. They are team-building for the next 5 years.
They are trying to build a CORE group of players that they can build around. The roster they inherited arguably had none. The only guy who'd ever strung even two, consecutive, above average seasons together was Thomas.
Now, you're starting to a core develop: Thomas, Schmidt, hopefully Neal, Hyatt, Robinson, Nabers, Dex, Burns, KT, Okereke, Banks. Guys they should be able to build around for a while. And for now, Jones is part of that group.
And finally,
Schoen and Daboll don't view Jones the way half the fans and media do. You can like it or lump it, but they just don't.
But even if you hate it, if you can get your head out of your ass and just accept it, everything they do starts making a lot more sense. And through that lens, Nabers makes perfect sense.
Even if Schoen and Daboll think Jones only a placeholder until they are in position to make a true upgrade, they are CLEARLY comfortable enough with him for now that they are not going to ignore their own plans and draft board. Sure, they inquired about Maye, but obviously the cost was too high, given the state of the roster, and having only 6 picks.
Schoen and Daboll just do NOT feel the same level of desperation about the QB that the fans feel.
Ignore that fact at your own peril.
There's a plan in place, and it's pretty easy to see if you're just OPEN to seeing it. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it's there, and they're working it.
Horse. Water. Maybe try a sip. Otherwise . . .
Quote:
"No one is going to be happy after this draft is over."
- Eric (4/23/2024)
It's true. But I sense many more people are dissappointed now than if they had gone QB.
A new QB is a sign of hope, whether or not it actually works out.
Quote:
Here’s the thing. Clearly Patriots wanted a 2025 1st and likely more.
Schoen and Daboll probably think Giants are closer than most think and need to add 5-6 good players to the roster this year including FA, trades, and draft.
Let’s say Giants gave up the farm for Maye, won 6 games this year because they didn’t add anyone else to the team.
Then let’s say Giants ended up with the 8th pick, but it went to New England. And then let’s say they are without a 3rd or 4th rounder in 2025 as well.
The trade for that draft capital would have been a gamble on Maye being a fantastic QB. Maybe Giants liked him a lot but realized it was too much to give up knowing that the roster is simply not there yet.
Maye was their top QB choice, but they weren't to lose future draft capital to get him. Nothing wrong with that decision. They clearly did their homework on the QB's. I was so relieved they didn't draft JJM. If a guy like Penix was there in the second, maybe they take a run, but we will never know.
Not hard to imagine Mara's finger on the scale.
Is Drew Lock any worse than DJ?
Is it ok to feel disappointed that they feel that way? Those of us that care about wins and losses?
I tend to agree with Tiki. To me this looks like a "win now" team, not a 5 year build.
With an improved D, OL, and now WR corps, I think this team will be much more competitive this fall. I'm not talking division winner, but a 9 or 10-win team that can steal a WC spot.
With an improved D, OL, and now WR corps, I think this team will be much more competitive this fall. I'm not talking division winner, but a 9 or 10-win team that can steal a WC spot.
Yes its much better that we paying someone 4/160 mil that we dont have a conviction on
Quote:
I didn't say that applies to everyone who is disappointed we didn't select a QB. I'm extremely disappointed we didn't get Maye. What I'm referring to are the people who come here pounding the table calling out the team as idiots because they didn't do what we wanted them to do and making absolutist claims. They don't express their views opinions, they declare them as uncompromising fact. There are more than enough of those types out there.
I guess we are not seeing the same posts. There are a few on the lunatic fringe on every topic because this is BBI. What I am mostly seeing is that people are a disappointed that the best opportunity we will likely have to upgrade QB just went by, and we are all staring down the barrel of another Daniel Jones led season.
Nabers is an amazing talent. So was Barkley. With no threat at QB the concern is whether or not that player will move the needle on the Giants scoring more points?
Thank you.
But I'd imagine a bunch of BBI'ers would be pissed had the Giants traded up for McCarthy, as most of us were speculating.
Eric, we didn’t need to trade up for McCarthy. He was right there for the taking. Penix too. A team with a proven QB took Penix.
As much as people are killing Atlanta today they are not resting on laurels with Kirk Cousins who is infinitely better and more accomplished than Daniel Jones. Atlanta fans can celebrate the fact they are not likely to see QB hell anytime soon. Giants on the other hand? QB hell is our mailing address.
Is it ok to feel disappointed that they feel that way? Those of us that care about wins and losses?
David nice post, and I would hope they have some sort of process and aren’t randomly throwing darts. But to Terps point we cannot necessarily agree with a process that is not obvious or we aren’t privy to. We can only comment on what has transpired and the fact is the Giants passed on QB in a QB rich draft. Right or wrong that happened.
It’s ok to feel like an opportunity has gone by. I moreso want a declaration on Jones that we aren’t just living more years of his scholarship indefinitely and if a new direction isn’t here now that it’s coming. That will give me hope that this team isn’t continuing to place loyalty above winning. Right now, we don’t know that.
Go Terps : 1:59 pm : link : reply
Great post. Especially the part about how Schoen and Daboll feel about Jones.
Is it ok to feel disappointed that they feel that way? Those of us that care about wins and losses?
Of course it's ok, and there are bonehead moves, but the fan's viewpoint is typically myopic and way uninformed compared to the people in the building.
And we ALL care about wins and losses. The team certainly does, or they could have tanked those last games and would have been picking 2 or 3. And maybe they could have taken a QB without mortgaging the future.
They didn't do that. For loads of good reasons. The fan in me wants them to lose those games and get the higher pick, but I get why you don't tank. It's not about getting a higher pick, it's about building a winning culture in the building. That's something fans won't ever see or value, unless it translates on the field.
And another question David B
Go Terps : 2:03 pm : link : reply
How do these jibe?
Quote:
Tiki said, "Everything the Schoen has done this offseason points to them wanting to win NOW. Not to start over with a new QB."
Quote:
It's call a long-term view. Fans don't get that either.
Quote:
They are not drafting to just fill immediate holes for next season. They are team-building for the next 5 years.
I tend to agree with Tiki. To me this looks like a "win now" team, not a 5 year build.
First off, those things aren't mutually exclusive, but it tells you that THEY don't think Jones is the problem. If they don't, why do you?
Everyone looks at 2023 and forgets 2022, when Jones played well, and was the difference in most of those close wins. Yeah, his passing numbers were paltry, be he had a terrible OL and he was throwing to Slayton (a #4WR) and a bunch of nobodies. My guess is they feel that if the OL is better, and he has better weapons around him, he'll do better. We'll see.
One big thing here is PATIENCE. Fans aren't patient. After 10 years of dreadful, mismanaged football, it's understandable. But GMs don't have the luxury of being impatient. Everything is big picture, long-term, and inter-connected. Management has to be far more patient than fans. Just because you were a shitty team for 10 years doesn't mean you throw patience and process out the window and make hasty decisions.
Another big part of this is ego
I just don't understand why fans think they know so damn much. They're passionate, and impatient, but they mostly don't know shit. They see the what, but rarely recognize the why.
Guys like Brugler, Jeremiah, Sy -- guys who SCOUT -- they say they only know about HALF of what a team knows about any given player. If that's true, how much can fans know? 5%? Fans don't understand team-building or draft philosophy. They see a perceived need, and want to fill it with the highest available draft pick. Period.
Take your ego out of it, and realize you don't know how much you don't know. It's OK to admit that. Really.
Everyone was up in arms when they let Saquon and (to a lesser extent) McKinney go? And then they signed Burns. Then they realized the plan was to allocate the cap $$ to a more important part of the roster with a more impactful player.
And finally, WE are not THEY. Everyone is TOO fucking emotionally invested in something they have ZERO control over. WE are not a part of it. You're just a spectator. Own that.
The sooner you can change your mindset from WE need a QB, to THEY need a QB, but they're going to do whatever the fuck THEY think is best, the better.
It's a small, subtle change, but it is somewhat liberating. When you stop thinking about what WE should do, and start observing what THEY are doing, you get a different perspective. You may not agree with the moves, but you're also not on the hook for them. Good or bad.
WE didn't think of trading for Burns. THEY did. WE didn't draft Barkley at 2, THEY did.
Divorce yourself from the idea that you know what they should do, and just watch what they do. Positional needs are obvious to all, but fans don't have anywhere near enough data to know how a team should best address them.
Football isn't Madden, and it isn't Fantasy. It's real human beings, working under real constraints with a lot going on behind closed doors that we'll never see.
You don't have to agree with all the moves (I certainly don't), and you're free to be disappointed. But Giants mgmt's ACTIONS speak louder than their words (which are always 99% bullshit).
You can either watch their actions and try to infer what they're thinking and doing -- as the spectator you are, or you can be pissed, disappointed, and upset every year when they -- with tons more information than you have -- didn't do what you wanted them to do. Your choice.
But hey you bolded and italicized, so that's cool.
You may have set the BBI record for sanctimony, which is really saying something.
The good thing is an elite wr can be a game changer that improves any qb. Most good qb’s are helped by having a good wr to go to.
We just went through this exercise with Gettleman.