Anyone else concerned about our ‘D’ being soft?

...

but truth is in the pudding. We were ranked as bad defenses both years Wink was here. I think we were like 28th or worse the last two years. So if having a DEF that improves to top 15 means not as much blitzing I am ok with it. I never watched Tennessee Def and say oh man this is a boring Def.

Go take a look at the rushing numbers. Aggressive and soft are not mutually exclusive. That's a myth.

Soft?

You had better take a look at Wink's defensive rankings:

2022 Overall: 25th
2022 Run Defense: 27th

2023 Overall: 27th
2023 Run Defense: 28th

Not soft????

LOL

In comment 16501971 Eric from BBI said:

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Soft? You had better take a look at Wink's defensive rankings: 2022 Overall: 25th 2022 Run Defense: 27th 2023 Overall: 27th 2023 Run Defense: 28th Not soft???? LOL

Compression shirts tho

Some serious rewriting of history going on

In comment 16501987 Jay7852 said:

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Some serious rewriting of history going on

The NFL let's Eric tweak statistics?

In comment 16501987 Jay7852 said:

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Some serious rewriting of history going on

No. I covered his decline in my weekly game previews.

He had talent/injury excuses in 2022. He had none in 2023. They gave him the players in the draft and free agency he wanted. His defense was bottom ranked. When you are 28th in run defense, you are SOFT by DEFINITION. It's not opinion. It's fact.

Take the loss.

Wink was a clown and phony.

If there is one thing to be hopeful about next year is how much the defense underachieved relative to the talent.

In comment 16501987 Jay7852 said:

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Some serious rewriting of history going on

I appreciate your self-awareness.

and soft in execution. These are not mutually exclusive propositions.

But he was so stubborn.....to be stupid.

This defense can be special

I'm so concerned about this I can barely sleep at night.

departure of Wink from Baltimore makes a lot more sense now.

Now do the offense!

I’m sure the bad run defense had nothing to do with the offense not being able to move the ball right?

and therefore weak against the run. I hope Phillips is the goods, but outside of Dex, no one else inspires confidence in me if asked to play substantial snaps. If teams run freely on us, we will appear soft.

Couldn't fix all our holes, but I'm probably most concerned about our depth at IDL.

Wink is not even in the NFL anymore,,,,

In comment 16502026 Jay7852 said:

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Now do the offense! I’m sure the bad run defense had nothing to do with the offense not being able to move the ball right?

Your run defense is your run defense.

Let's do yards per attempt? Giants allowed 4.7 yards per attempt, which tied them for 31st in the NFL.

31st.

That had nothing to do with the offense.

Holy hell.

In comment 16502027 BigBlueNH said:

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and therefore weak against the run. I hope Phillips is the goods, but outside of Dex, no one else inspires confidence in me if asked to play substantial snaps. If teams run freely on us, we will appear soft. Couldn't fix all our holes, but I'm probably most concerned about our depth at IDL.

The run defense had nothing to do with Dexter Lawrence A'Shawn Robinson. Both were studs against the run.

In comment 16502024 Eric from BBI said:

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departure of Wink from Baltimore makes a lot more sense now.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Harbaugh is no idiot.

Where do we get these guys from?

In comment 16502024 Eric from BBI said:

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departure of Wink from Baltimore makes a lot more sense now.

the league was trending to more split safeties to slow down the passing game. wink wasnt. and his ego has never done him any favors. you can see how baltimore and nyg switched spots pre/post wink.



both years under wink giants defense was among the worst in allowing big plays. 2 safeties back instead of 1 sounds like a reasonable way to slow down big plays.

Wink's D was soft. Thats why he was so angry all the time

But basically it's about having more beef at the L.O.S. more often. The crucial challenge is to force the opponents NOT to double and triple team Dex so much. That failure makes any defense appear "soft".

It's the the front line business to muddle up the trenches, the line backers make the tackles. I know everybody's tired of hearing it, but that's what the 49ers have been doing it very well, for a while.

The other thing is the mis-allocation of resources. The most glaring was sticking one of the best tacklers on the team (McKinney) 20 yards away from the action (as the free safety). How often (not just the Giants) are guilty of recognizing of assigning players to roles that the coach determines and not where the player's abilities can best be utilized.

There's many more factors (like Wink's "kamikazi" mentality)
, when he didn't have the players to get it done. He's the old dog, that will never "suffer" change.

And, on-and-on ....

defense was bad. Also, the offense being bad as well is not the reason why the defense was bad, look at the Jets who also had a terrible offense.

Picture yourself as a defensive player. You're out there bustin' your ass, making plays, taking the ball away from the opponent ...

Then your offense goes "three and out" (all day), not only are you physically exhausted, your spirit is broken, you're pissed and resentful.

But what looks like aggressiveness was probably an illusion. We all hated Grahams defense and it was nice to see so many blitzes. But they inexplicably rushed 3 on some of the most important plays. Then... Subtly, on run plays... There seemed to be 2 down lineman. Then on pass plays he has Thibs dropping back quite a bit. There is a reason LBs or DEs don't usually reach double digit sacks with him.

It may have seemed aggressive, and having no offense certainly didn't help, but it wasn't good. After Graham I focused more on other defensive schemes and noticed that many teams... Even those with good aggressive defenses play two safeties very deep and do generally try to keep things in front of them. There is talent on that side of the ball and they should be OK.

about the Giants O . When the Giants ran the ball 30 or more times the Giants D held teams to less than 20 points outside of one game over two seasons. Giants had some of the worst rushing efforts in team history this season. Prior to the Rams game, Wink praised the "innovative run games" of McVay and Shanahan for a reason. That was a shot at hothead Daboll.

I think the D can be much better if some players advance but the O is going to have to help out better this season.

In comment 16502072 Manny in CA said:

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Picture yourself as a defensive player. You're out there bustin' your ass, making plays, taking the ball away from the opponent ... Then your offense goes "three and out" (all day), not only are you physically exhausted, your spirit is broken, you're pissed and resentful.

Well, except for the fact that they couldn't stop anyone with a three and out. In fact, they got burned continuously on 3rd and long and could not get off the field.
How many 12 play drives did they give up last two years? They were victims of their own inability to get off thr field.

Under Wink. Soft as butter, terrible against the run. Wink misused KT in my view. So happy he is gone, expecting an above average D this year. Some great additions in Burns, Phillips, Nubin and expect continued growth from young ascending players like KT and Banks. Having a pro and not a diva as DC will only help.

Company will not be “soft”….looking forward to this defense!

almost suffered from exhaustion due to Wink's hard defense

Every DC should just say they are going to blitz a lot. Most fans will eat it up, but never actually look up the numbers or understand the game to know any better. They'll think they have a "tough" rather than 'soft" D just based on the press conferences.

In reality blitzing a lot is not a great idea in the modern NFL, especially against good teams. Most of the league has trended in the "soft" direction to take away big plays and force opponents to string long drives together

in the first half:

3 plays, 4 yard. Punt. 3 plays, -4 yards. Punt. 5 plays, 17 yards. Punt. Giants D forces a turnover. 4 plays, 8 yards (Giants fail on 4th down). 3 plays, 1 yards. Punt. 3 plays, 2 yards. Punt. 1 play, -1 yards. End of half.

22 plays, 27 yards in first half by the Giants offense.

This was the game where BD gets all over Wink....

Teams ruined the edges, ran up the middle, you name it.

No wonder there was talk of Wink tanking to try and get Davoli fired.

He figured out how to UNLEASH Dex unlike previous defenses.

Always played HARD even though the offense was absolutely terrible

Got a bunch of turnovers in 2023 despite playing from behind most games

Remember that defensive masterpiece IN Buffalo, shutting down Josh Allen , yeah…we lost that game.

Remember holding the patriots to basically zero offense? Yeah we lost that game.

Remember dominating the eagles last week of the season despite knowing he wasn’t coming back next year?

Remember going to the playoffs and WINNING a playoff game in 2022? Yeah, that wasnt because of our offense, our D literally won us most of those games.

I’m actually glad Wink is gone, but let’s stop talking like he was “horrible”.

In comment 16502158 JonC said:

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Teams ruined the edges, ran up the middle, you name it. No wonder there was talk of Wink tanking to try and get Davoli fired.

That one will go down under How to Get Laughed at While Staging Your Coup.

Welcome to the minor leagues dipshit.

Generating turnovers at an usual clip saved alot of bacon, and that tends to not occur year over year.

In comment 16502181 Jay7852 said:

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He figured out how to UNLEASH Dex unlike previous defenses. Always played HARD even though the offense was absolutely terrible Got a bunch of turnovers in 2023 despite playing from behind most games Remember that defensive masterpiece IN Buffalo, shutting down Josh Allen , yeah…we lost that game. Remember holding the patriots to basically zero offense? Yeah we lost that game. Remember dominating the eagles last week of the season despite knowing he wasn’t coming back next year? Remember going to the playoffs and WINNING a playoff game in 2022? Yeah, that wasnt because of our offense, our D literally won us most of those games. I’m actually glad Wink is gone, but let’s stop talking like he was “horrible”.

Remember giving up a 3rd and 19 and several 3rd an 10+ 1st downs.
Remember having teams running 5-8 yards up the middle constantly.
Remember giving up lots of 12 play drives...
Remember playing 10 yards off the LoS on 3rd and 4 (like all the time)?
Remember letting Zach Wilson go 50 yards in 28 secs in 2 plays?

I never thought of Bowen’s defenses in TENN that way. He may play a fair amount of zone coverage, but his players will attack the run and pressure the passer. Between a new scheme and new personnel, I expect a significantly better defense in ‘24.

In comment 16502181 Jay7852 said:

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He figured out how to UNLEASH Dex unlike previous defenses. Always played HARD even though the offense was absolutely terrible Got a bunch of turnovers in 2023 despite playing from behind most games Remember that defensive masterpiece IN Buffalo, shutting down Josh Allen , yeah…we lost that game. Remember holding the patriots to basically zero offense? Yeah we lost that game. Remember dominating the eagles last week of the season despite knowing he wasn’t coming back next year? Remember going to the playoffs and WINNING a playoff game in 2022? Yeah, that wasnt because of our offense, our D literally won us most of those games. I’m actually glad Wink is gone, but let’s stop talking like he was “horrible”.

He had the 27th ranked defense. It couldn't stop the run. It wasn't good against the pass. All his defense did last year is generate turnovers, which come and go.

No NFL team hired him.

man defense since 1 or more of the players you would otherwise use in coverage is blitzing. When your defense doesn't blitz a lot, you need good pass rushers in your front 7 to be able to get pressure without blitzing. Hence the Giants signed Burns rather than signing a top corner in free agency.

to be fair, struggles were also due to personnel deficiencies. only one consistent pass rusher.

still, the evidence is pretty consistent that he is overrated

And again, on a yards per attempt basis, the run defense was 31st. That was with Dex, A'Shawn/Leo, Nunez, KT, Okereke in the front seven. The free agent moves and draft picks were his guys.

31st.

That's the very definition of soft.

not posts

Good to see one of the Wilkins posting on BBI

death by a thousand cuts - At least winks was fast and overwith

The '23 Giants allowed 61% red zone scoring and 47% TDs - very bad on both counts. They were DEAD LAST in % 1st downs allowed on runs. When attitude mattered most, Wink's D caved. Instead of dawgs they were dogs.

I liked Wink but his D was soft as a babys bottom.

ever thinking that Tennessee was "soft".

In comment 16501994 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16501987 Jay7852 said: Quote: Some serious rewriting of history going on No. I covered his decline in my weekly game previews. He had talent/injury excuses in 2022. He had none in 2023. They gave him the players in the draft and free agency he wanted. His defense was bottom ranked. When you are 28th in run defense, you are SOFT by DEFINITION. It's not opinion. It's fact. Take the loss.

I don't care about the style, I for one will just be glad to see three DLs on the field for the vast majority of plays.

I was excited about Wink coming here, based on some good defenses in Balt. Then reality set in. Our D underperformed and Baltimore still had a great D.

At the start of the '23 season, our D was almost just as responsible for our horrendous start as the O was.

I have no idea how Bowen is going to do, but it can't be much worse and hopefully it will be much better.

I do agree that I hope it's not similar to Graham's D.

In comment 16502550 Dr. D said:

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I was excited about Wink coming here, based on some good defenses in Balt. Then reality set in. Our D underperformed and Baltimore still had a great D. At the start of the '23 season, our D was almost just as responsible for our horrendous start as the O was. I have no idea how Bowen is going to do, but it can't be much worse and hopefully it will be much better. I do agree that I hope it's not similar to Graham's D.

You don't have to blitz heavily to be an attacking style of defense (versus read and react).

In comment 16501987 Jay7852 said:

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Some serious rewriting of history going on

What re-writing. Many, including myself, were critical of Wink's D last year and/or the year before. He did not oversee a stellar D. More and more, he seemed to be a one trick pony and the league figured out that trick.

because they are still questionable on the DL.

It wasn't long to see who he was - Admiral Farragut "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead". (He came from Baltimore, where they loved him, but still felt they had to let him go).

So he gets here and finds out all he has is a Volkswagen bus (our defense) left over from last years gymkhana. Being the old stubborn salty dog that he is, he keeps throwing pouring Nitro fuel in the tank and gets mad when the car keep going into the pit stop with cracked pistons and broken crankshaft rods (and Daboll complains).

Steve Bowen is now DC, he may seem boring, but he fits a lot better here. He will work with what we have and maximize what every player can do. I don't think it will be the defenses' fault if games are lost.

In that scheme the front seven is better set-up to #1 stop the run and rush the QB with 4 guys.

At DT, Dex is ALL PRO, Riley is coming on very strong

A DE, both Burns & Thibodeaux are very good at holding their edge.

Behind them, Okereke has proven he's a heat-seeking missile; on the strong side Mc Faden has proven he can play at a high level; on the weak side I think Simmons will finally prove why he was the 8th over-all pick in in the 2020 draft.

Bowen is the best thing that's happened to the Giants defense since Spags was here.

Makes for many offensive “drives” ending in three and outs, especially when the D got the O turnovers….combine that with horrible tackling and that gets you to 6-11 faster than you can say “free soda”.

blitzing style because it creates big plays and turnovers and such. But lets be real here. When it doesn't work our Def was bad. It is basically shooting 3 points all game with average 3 point shooters. There will be games you hit most of your shots and look good and games where you miss a lot and get blown out. Blame the Offense all you want, but Def was either good or really bad.

the softness that this franchise has been saddled with is not because the coaches as much as it has been the personel. We just haven't had many good players for a long time. Good football players especially defensive are tough physical players and that is the failing of the front office. Too easy to blame the coaches for everything but they can't make up for the lack of talent that has plagued this franchise.

If we did, then Wink's mojo would have worked spectacularly. We simply didn't have the horses for it, when he was here.

'97 defense - 45 sacks, 21 INTs, 11 fumbles recovered.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/1997_roster.htm