Bur regarding his comments about the whole patience thing... Dan's point is fair --this is year three --why should there be patience?
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection. There were injuries to every important player on offense, the early schedule was brutal, and week 1 just played out in a way that was a disaster. If I were to tell you at the beginning of the year that NYG would end the year by playing Philly close, then lose to the Rams by 1, and then beat Philly handedly at home in a game where Philly had the division on the line, people would be excited. But you never hear anyone talk about our beating Philly for only the second time in God knows how long. Why is that? It's because we all know Philly was in a funk at the time, and if you pointed to that, you would be right. But at the same time, it's pretty obvious that at the beginning of the year, the Giants were in a funk too. People talk like the only difference between the Oline early on and as the year progressed was only because of AT, but that is not true. The early line play was completely out of sorts. I don't know if it was the Oline coach they eventually fired's fault, or something with the play calling that forced Dabs to have to step in, or just the lack of confidence from a team that looked flat out shell shocked after the way things unraveled so quickly on them in week 1, but it was a mess. And the early schedule was absolutely brutal. It took a long time for the line to stabilize. And eventually, it did stabilize, but by that time most had given up on the season.
I'm not saying everything is all sunshine and rainbows here. There are counter points to all of this. There is certainly a world where this team is headed for a disaster. But at the same time, where most of us can see that 2022 wasn't a completer reality of where things were at the time, I'll argue that a compelling case can be made to believe that 2022 may not be the reality of things either, only in the reverse negative direction.
So yes, when Schoen throws out the word patience here, I don't honestly expect to see any, but I do get what he's saying. IMO, this administration deserves an incomplete grade at this point. I'm going to reserve judgement until after the season, but pray that things start out well, because I don't expect too much of the same from my fellow fans. There is just too much emotion tied into this for many fans. And I get it. It's been a frustrating ride.
Who cares if the years were reversed. They aren't. This team needs to show drastic improvement. That's the nature of the sport. Schoen has a lot to prove. Daboll has a lot to prove.
Bur regarding his comments about the whole patience thing... Dan's point is fair --this is year three --why should there be patience?
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection. There were injuries to every important player on offense, the early schedule was brutal, and week 1 just played out in a way that was a disaster. If I were to tell you at the beginning of the year that NYG would end the year by playing Philly close, then lose to the Rams by 1, and then beat Philly handedly at home in a game where Philly had the division on the line, people would be excited. But you never hear anyone talk about our beating Philly for only the second time in God knows how long. Why is that? It's because we all know Philly was in a funk at the time, and if you pointed to that, you would be right. But at the same time, it's pretty obvious that at the beginning of the year, the Giants were in a funk too. People talk like the only difference between the Oline early on and as the year progressed was only because of AT, but that is not true. The early line play was completely out of sorts. I don't know if it was the Oline coach they eventually fired's fault, or something with the play calling that forced Dabs to have to step in, or just the lack of confidence from a team that looked flat out shell shocked after the way things unraveled so quickly on them in week 1, but it was a mess. And the early schedule was absolutely brutal. It took a long time for the line to stabilize. And eventually, it did stabilize, but by that time most had given up on the season.
I'm not saying everything is all sunshine and rainbows here. There are counter points to all of this. There is certainly a world where this team is headed for a disaster. But at the same time, where most of us can see that 2022 wasn't a completer reality of where things were at the time, I'll argue that a compelling case can be made to believe that 2022 may not be the reality of things either, only in the reverse negative direction.
So yes, when Schoen throws out the word patience here, I don't honestly expect to see any, but I do get what he's saying. IMO, this administration deserves an incomplete grade at this point. I'm going to reserve judgement until after the season, but pray that things start out well, because I don't expect too much of the same from my fellow fans. There is just too much emotion tied into this for many fans. And I get it. It's been a frustrating ride.
This is such a good post. BBI (and the rest of the world) likes to speak in absolutes about the far end of each spectrum. In reality, the Giants make decisions that they think will be best for the team, but it's always subject to probabilities. They won a ton of coin flips in 2022, and lost a ton of coin flips in 2023. I have faith in the GM and coaching staff for now, but I realize there's still a lot left to chance. The job is to put the best roster on the field that they can, and have the best game plan/preparation that they can. I have (maybe naive) faith that the current regime can be trusted to do that.
the realists are trying to get the highly emotional & reactionary fans to not be highly emotional & reactionary.
= its not gonna happen lol
not to mention it only takes a crumb of news to trigger them.
Lots of click generation is on the menu.
I just know we were in quite the hole w/personnel & contract situations, plus owner 'guidance' with a first time GM.
I feel like this is sort of year 1-ish, of our heads coming out of the hole. g-forbid Schoen isn't perfect or doesn't build it they way every fan would. Sometimes you can only get who you can get.
Just hope all these bald bearded coaches can get us to whatever the next level is. Many interesting story lines to follow.
because the Knicks in many ways are the perfect template to use. They were a Franchise stuck in the muck and mire of constant losing. They were moribund in every way. Barren. Nothing grew and nothing survived let alone thrived, long term. Thibs and Rose and Co. came in and took a very very slow and patient approach. They were pragmatic. They were also far from perfect but their approach or methodology was sound. They are close to being on the same page with just about personnel decision but like anything in life, never perfect synergy. They aren't infallible. In other words, it's doable. The Knicks weren't gifted anything. They didn't win 2 straight lotto drafts in a row. They scratched and clawed their way to where they are today. It's sustainable and a model we can look to.
Year one saw the Knicks win at close to a 50 win clip (i think it was 50 but short covid season)--they won on the backs of a few holdover players like Randle (who this current regime wisely decided was worth investing in) and even journeymen types like Elfrid Payton, Bullock and Noel. The 20-21 Knicks were similar to the 2022 Giants. Then 21-22 comes and Knicks took a step back. They took some relatively low risk shots on players like Walker and Fournier. Suffered some bad luck injuries or sophomore jinx moments and struggled to a 37 win season, missing the playoffs. NO one was happy with the Knicks and saw this run of success coming after that setback season. But in 2023 they land Brunson. Later that year they land Hart.
I am not saying the 2024 Giants will mirror the 2023 Knicks but I insist on believing this NYG roster is a lot better on paper than the 2022 roster Schoen and Daboll inherited. And contrary to a widely held take I don't think last year's offseason where they re-signed DJ and paid the 3rd and a decent but short termed contract for Waller was highly egregious, even if those moves don't look so good today. Waller was our Kemba Walker. Jones? He flat out had a nightmare season no sugar coating it, but Randle wasn't exactly terrific in 21-22 either.
The roster is improving. If you can get past ONE position, QB, and one that is locked into a relatively short termed contract I don't think it's unfair to believe progress is being made.
I think Schoen is obsessed with bringing in good to great starting players. He's not obsessed with this position or that position. HE just wants to build a roster that has impact talent. And he's managed to either keep or add impact talent. The D is 1-2 role playing pieces of development from becoming one of the league's best. Maybe one more impact player as well which likely isn't on the roster at this time, but the 1-2 smaller pieces that we need to just play professionally, (2nd corner, DL next to Dexter, etc) could be on the roster.
I don't know, I am a half full guy and always have been, but I don't think the roster bad at all. The offense has some questions no doubt, but WR is finally coming together. IF we could just get RT (center) figured out we might have something here.
That's fine. I live in reality. Schoen has been here for 3 offseasons and his best players are Gettleman's picks. And it isn't like he has been picking at the bottom of each round. They need to show better improvement.
Shit even Coughlin's Giants had a setback year 3. They go 11-5 and then 8-8 the year after and lose Tiki Barber to retirement. Sure it's apples and oranges, point is, not every team builds a perfectly wonderful linear path to sustained excellence. Things are rarely so neat and clean.
IF we battle this season and develop a true identity on defense, not last year's BS where the D played well when it wanted to, I mean true sustained insisting on keeping games close despite the offense sucking ass kind of play. LIke 1997-1999. IF we can emerge on that side of the ball feeling like the D is here to stay and heaven forbid come out of 24 with an OL we can believe in, at least at LT, Center and Guard, -we'd be on the right path.
And you can bet that no matter how bad you think Jones is, if the WR is THAT good, and the D is THAT good, and the OL is OK, Jones will play at a higher level. It's how football works. Even if you think he's the shittiest QB ever, any QB will play at a higher level when his team plays at a higher level. The key to me is can Jones run for 8 yards on 3rd and 7 once in a while. That and OL health of course.
That's fine. I live in reality. Schoen has been here for 3 offseasons and his best players are Gettleman's picks. And it isn't like he has been picking at the bottom of each round. They need to show better improvement.
Thibs has been a successful pick. Robinson looks like a legit talent at WR. Banks at corner. And we are going to love Burns and Nabers but I get it that this is projection.
The only true miss so far was Neal. And he's getting another shot with a pro OL coach.
Also, don't forget about Okereke. HE's a super star MLB. Also, Schoen should get credit for re-signing Lawrence and Thomas even if they were no brainers. We've seen GMs let holdovers get away. Schoen was open minded enough to keep guys he didn't draft. That's a plus.
I get it though, this is one hell of a big year for this regime. Proof is in the pudding.
and I'm not throwing these guys out until they have a chance with a young QB. That wasn't in the cards this year because the Patriots were not moving out. Maybe it is next year after a 6-7 win season. Talent is getting a lot better. Starting over would be dumb.
You don’t get patience because the “years were reversed”
and I'm not throwing these guys out until they have a chance with a young QB. That wasn't in the cards this year because the Patriots were not moving out. Maybe it is next year after a 6-7 win season. Talent is getting a lot better. Starting over would be dumb.
I don't see how they can survive a bad season, the situation will be untenable. Although I agree with you
Bur regarding his comments about the whole patience thing... Dan's point is fair --this is year three --why should there be patience?
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, we wouldn't have $54 million allocated to a mediocre (at best) QB room in 2024.
But we do. They could have recognized that 2022 was overachieving, but they did not. Their failure to adequately self-evaluate is not an excuse, that's the job.
I'm sorry, you don't get to pay a QB $47 million and draft a WR #6 overall without people having expectations.
The schedule negated any chance of avoiding regression . Then Daboll put the whammy on Andrew Thomas . Everything unraveled from there . I think the Giants have a roster that is much better than people think . QB play will under the microscope . But I didn’t want McCarthy , Nix or Penix , either .
As far as the off-season restructuring in the division , both Washington and New York gained ground on Dallas and Philadelphia . The Eagles lost their 2 most important personalities and anchors in Kelce and Cox. I think Dallas got hurt by attrition. Dak is going to be the object of derision , however unfairly . And they had a shit draft in my estimation .
Feel pretty good , actually . Now I’m waiting on the schedule because it’s not just whom you play but when and what time of day . Long to see a bunch of 1 o’clock starts .
Knicks are a good comp. Leon Rose was often criticized for not doing anything. He was very patient and he had some misses early with Fournier and Reddish. Now, I think he's an excellent executive.
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection. There were injuries to every important player on offense, the early schedule was brutal, and week 1 just played out in a way that was a disaster. If I were to tell you at the beginning of the year that NYG would end the year by playing Philly close, then lose to the Rams by 1, and then beat Philly handedly at home in a game where Philly had the division on the line, people would be excited. But you never hear anyone talk about our beating Philly for only the second time in God knows how long. Why is that? It's because we all know Philly was in a funk at the time, and if you pointed to that, you would be right. But at the same time, it's pretty obvious that at the beginning of the year, the Giants were in a funk too. People talk like the only difference between the Oline early on and as the year progressed was only because of AT, but that is not true. The early line play was completely out of sorts. I don't know if it was the Oline coach they eventually fired's fault, or something with the play calling that forced Dabs to have to step in, or just the lack of confidence from a team that looked flat out shell shocked after the way things unraveled so quickly on them in week 1, but it was a mess. And the early schedule was absolutely brutal. It took a long time for the line to stabilize. And eventually, it did stabilize, but by that time most had given up on the season.
I'm not saying everything is all sunshine and rainbows here. There are counter points to all of this. There is certainly a world where this team is headed for a disaster. But at the same time, where most of us can see that 2022 wasn't a completer reality of where things were at the time, I'll argue that a compelling case can be made to believe that 2022 may not be the reality of things either, only in the reverse negative direction.
So yes, when Schoen throws out the word patience here, I don't honestly expect to see any, but I do get what he's saying. IMO, this administration deserves an incomplete grade at this point. I'm going to reserve judgement until after the season, but pray that things start out well, because I don't expect too much of the same from my fellow fans. There is just too much emotion tied into this for many fans. And I get it. It's been a frustrating ride.
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection. There were injuries to every important player on offense, the early schedule was brutal, and week 1 just played out in a way that was a disaster. If I were to tell you at the beginning of the year that NYG would end the year by playing Philly close, then lose to the Rams by 1, and then beat Philly handedly at home in a game where Philly had the division on the line, people would be excited. But you never hear anyone talk about our beating Philly for only the second time in God knows how long. Why is that? It's because we all know Philly was in a funk at the time, and if you pointed to that, you would be right. But at the same time, it's pretty obvious that at the beginning of the year, the Giants were in a funk too. People talk like the only difference between the Oline early on and as the year progressed was only because of AT, but that is not true. The early line play was completely out of sorts. I don't know if it was the Oline coach they eventually fired's fault, or something with the play calling that forced Dabs to have to step in, or just the lack of confidence from a team that looked flat out shell shocked after the way things unraveled so quickly on them in week 1, but it was a mess. And the early schedule was absolutely brutal. It took a long time for the line to stabilize. And eventually, it did stabilize, but by that time most had given up on the season.
I'm not saying everything is all sunshine and rainbows here. There are counter points to all of this. There is certainly a world where this team is headed for a disaster. But at the same time, where most of us can see that 2022 wasn't a completer reality of where things were at the time, I'll argue that a compelling case can be made to believe that 2022 may not be the reality of things either, only in the reverse negative direction.
So yes, when Schoen throws out the word patience here, I don't honestly expect to see any, but I do get what he's saying. IMO, this administration deserves an incomplete grade at this point. I'm going to reserve judgement until after the season, but pray that things start out well, because I don't expect too much of the same from my fellow fans. There is just too much emotion tied into this for many fans. And I get it. It's been a frustrating ride.
This is such a good post. BBI (and the rest of the world) likes to speak in absolutes about the far end of each spectrum. In reality, the Giants make decisions that they think will be best for the team, but it's always subject to probabilities. They won a ton of coin flips in 2022, and lost a ton of coin flips in 2023. I have faith in the GM and coaching staff for now, but I realize there's still a lot left to chance. The job is to put the best roster on the field that they can, and have the best game plan/preparation that they can. I have (maybe naive) faith that the current regime can be trusted to do that.
the realists are trying to get the highly emotional & reactionary fans to not be highly emotional & reactionary.
= its not gonna happen lol
not to mention it only takes a crumb of news to trigger them.
Lots of click generation is on the menu.
I just know we were in quite the hole w/personnel & contract situations, plus owner 'guidance' with a first time GM.
I feel like this is sort of year 1-ish, of our heads coming out of the hole. g-forbid Schoen isn't perfect or doesn't build it they way every fan would. Sometimes you can only get who you can get.
Just hope all these bald bearded coaches can get us to whatever the next level is. Many interesting story lines to follow.
Year one saw the Knicks win at close to a 50 win clip (i think it was 50 but short covid season)--they won on the backs of a few holdover players like Randle (who this current regime wisely decided was worth investing in) and even journeymen types like Elfrid Payton, Bullock and Noel. The 20-21 Knicks were similar to the 2022 Giants. Then 21-22 comes and Knicks took a step back. They took some relatively low risk shots on players like Walker and Fournier. Suffered some bad luck injuries or sophomore jinx moments and struggled to a 37 win season, missing the playoffs. NO one was happy with the Knicks and saw this run of success coming after that setback season. But in 2023 they land Brunson. Later that year they land Hart.
I am not saying the 2024 Giants will mirror the 2023 Knicks but I insist on believing this NYG roster is a lot better on paper than the 2022 roster Schoen and Daboll inherited. And contrary to a widely held take I don't think last year's offseason where they re-signed DJ and paid the 3rd and a decent but short termed contract for Waller was highly egregious, even if those moves don't look so good today. Waller was our Kemba Walker. Jones? He flat out had a nightmare season no sugar coating it, but Randle wasn't exactly terrific in 21-22 either.
The roster is improving. If you can get past ONE position, QB, and one that is locked into a relatively short termed contract I don't think it's unfair to believe progress is being made.
I think Schoen is obsessed with bringing in good to great starting players. He's not obsessed with this position or that position. HE just wants to build a roster that has impact talent. And he's managed to either keep or add impact talent. The D is 1-2 role playing pieces of development from becoming one of the league's best. Maybe one more impact player as well which likely isn't on the roster at this time, but the 1-2 smaller pieces that we need to just play professionally, (2nd corner, DL next to Dexter, etc) could be on the roster.
I don't know, I am a half full guy and always have been, but I don't think the roster bad at all. The offense has some questions no doubt, but WR is finally coming together. IF we could just get RT (center) figured out we might have something here.
That's fine. I live in reality. Schoen has been here for 3 offseasons and his best players are Gettleman's picks. And it isn't like he has been picking at the bottom of each round. They need to show better improvement.
IF we battle this season and develop a true identity on defense, not last year's BS where the D played well when it wanted to, I mean true sustained insisting on keeping games close despite the offense sucking ass kind of play. LIke 1997-1999. IF we can emerge on that side of the ball feeling like the D is here to stay and heaven forbid come out of 24 with an OL we can believe in, at least at LT, Center and Guard, -we'd be on the right path.
And you can bet that no matter how bad you think Jones is, if the WR is THAT good, and the D is THAT good, and the OL is OK, Jones will play at a higher level. It's how football works. Even if you think he's the shittiest QB ever, any QB will play at a higher level when his team plays at a higher level. The key to me is can Jones run for 8 yards on 3rd and 7 once in a while. That and OL health of course.
Quote:
Keep up.
That's fine. I live in reality. Schoen has been here for 3 offseasons and his best players are Gettleman's picks. And it isn't like he has been picking at the bottom of each round. They need to show better improvement.
Thibs has been a successful pick. Robinson looks like a legit talent at WR. Banks at corner. And we are going to love Burns and Nabers but I get it that this is projection.
The only true miss so far was Neal. And he's getting another shot with a pro OL coach.
Also, don't forget about Okereke. HE's a super star MLB. Also, Schoen should get credit for re-signing Lawrence and Thomas even if they were no brainers. We've seen GMs let holdovers get away. Schoen was open minded enough to keep guys he didn't draft. That's a plus.
I get it though, this is one hell of a big year for this regime. Proof is in the pudding.
I don't see how they can survive a bad season, the situation will be untenable. Although I agree with you
I'll tell you why. Because last year the team was coming off a year 1 where they overachieved and Dabs won coach of the year and expectations were high, if not inflated, and then a lot of shit happened and when things didn't go as we had hoped, everyone killed them. And now all the talk is they're on the hotseat and is BB kicking on the door, blah blah blah. If NYG comes out in week 1 and doesn't look great and DJ has a mediocre or bad game, fans are going to go ballistic, and that's not the reality.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, everyone would be looking at this team way different. Yes, there are things in the 2022 success that were probably not the reality, but at the same time, there were things in 2023 that are equally not a true reflection.
If 2022 and 2023 were reversed, we wouldn't have $54 million allocated to a mediocre (at best) QB room in 2024.
But we do. They could have recognized that 2022 was overachieving, but they did not. Their failure to adequately self-evaluate is not an excuse, that's the job.
I'm sorry, you don't get to pay a QB $47 million and draft a WR #6 overall without people having expectations.
As far as the off-season restructuring in the division , both Washington and New York gained ground on Dallas and Philadelphia . The Eagles lost their 2 most important personalities and anchors in Kelce and Cox. I think Dallas got hurt by attrition. Dak is going to be the object of derision , however unfairly . And they had a shit draft in my estimation .
Feel pretty good , actually . Now I’m waiting on the schedule because it’s not just whom you play but when and what time of day . Long to see a bunch of 1 o’clock starts .
Nabers is that guy.
It should make a difference.
Anything else is delusion.