On another thread, the comments on Daniel Jones included the following significant weaknesses:
2. Slow processor
3. Stares down first read, does not go through reads
4. Subpar arm strength
5. Settles for underneath routes, does not push the ball vertically
6. Simply does not see the field or read the defense, ( never audibles or adjusts protection)
6. Lack of leadership skills
If the above is accurate, how can many of the core group of Jones critics trust our top level management in picking the next Giants qb. They had Jones for a whole year and gave him the contract he has. If they felt Jones had the above weaknesses, their evaluation skills are majorly suspect.
Please educate me on this apparent contradiction.
It really is that simple.
It really is that simple.
I hope this is true and we see it this year…What do the numbers say on jones as it pertains to completion percentage when under pressure vs having a clean pocket? Can he read a Defense and fit throws into tight coverage when he’s not running for his life?
It really is that simple.
This year's OL play was the worst I've watched in over 20 years of Giants football. I'm glad they fired that coach.
Jesus.
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With a competent OL …..
It really is that simple.
I hope this is true and we see it this year…What do the numbers say on jones as it pertains to completion percentage when under pressure vs having a clean pocket? Can he read a Defense and fit throws into tight coverage when he’s not running for his life?
I'm not sure about prior t0 2023, but Jones's performance on clean pocket throws in 2023 was awful.
Your other point is a good one to consider about the current regime knowing QB's. Not much of a track record that I am aware of outside JS/BD being involved with Allen. Kafka was a QB and with Reid a long time so I take that as a positive.
Jesus.
Eric - those are not my criticisms of Jones. I'm pointing to the inconsistency of these criticisms with those who feel our top management are qualified to pick our next qb (if and when that happens).
Your other point is a good one to consider about the current regime knowing QB's. Not much of a track record that I am aware of outside JS/BD being involved with Allen. Kafka was a QB and with Reid a long time so I take that as a positive.
Clearly I didn't make my point clear. The above are not my assessments of Jones.
If you are asking a fan why would Schoen re-sign a QB with a weak arm, the fan that claims he has a weak arm is also going to either say Schoen sucks or Mara twisted his arm.
Jesus.
If you are asking a fan why would Schoen re-sign a QB with a weak arm, the fan that claims he has a weak arm is also going to either say Schoen sucks or Mara twisted his arm.
C'mon Eric. You have read the avalanche of criticisms from fans on this site about Jones that match what I said above, yet so many of those stating these points are also confident in our top management to pick our next franchise qb. I obviously feel that is a contradiction.
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OK, but what a fan says is not necessary reality.
If you are asking a fan why would Schoen re-sign a QB with a weak arm, the fan that claims he has a weak arm is also going to either say Schoen sucks or Mara twisted his arm.
C'mon Eric. You have read the avalanche of criticisms from fans on this site about Jones that match what I said above, yet so many of those stating these points are also confident in our top management to pick our next franchise qb. I obviously feel that is a contradiction.
You're either not following me or I'm not following you.
Those who think the Giants are tied to the hip of Daniel Jones DO NOT have faith in the Giants. Period.
follow-up question, how good of a job did they do with devito to go 3-3 with him when he's less talented than jones?
follow-up question, how good of a job did they do with devito to go 3-3 with him when he's less talented than jones?
Why not answer the question of this thread. If you agree with the criticisms of Jones, are you confident in Schoen picking our next qb after he signed Jones.
Daboll had a really unremarkable tenure as an offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach early in his career. Where he really seemed to put it together was Alabama.
I think more than a quarterbacks expert, Daboll has evolved into an offensive expert. He really seems to be able to construct an offensive system that both high and low skill quarterbacks can thrive in. What he did with DeVito at the wheel last year, going from the Jets game to the Packers game was pretty remarkable.
The real quarterbacks expert on the staff is Kafka. His promotion to QB coach coincided with Mahomes ascending to the starting job. Reid was clearly running the offene with Bieniemy doing whatever it was he was doing.
Mahomes on Kafka.
I'd love to hear Kafka's opinion. Going from Mahomes to Jones must a fucking trip.
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how good of a job did they do with him in 2022?
follow-up question, how good of a job did they do with devito to go 3-3 with him when he's less talented than jones?
Why not answer the question of this thread. If you agree with the criticisms of Jones, are you confident in Schoen picking our next qb after he signed Jones.
im not sure im confident in schoen picking the next anything. qb included because that's the hardest thing to pick and even the best get it wrong (see shanahan/lance).
i do feel reasonably confident daboll knows what he is doing. he developed josh allen, he coached jones to his best year, he won games against playoff teams last year with 2 different backups - 1 of them a rookie udfa.
so with your questions answered, how about you answer this one - if you think all the qbs they've picked so far aren't good, how would you rate daboll's performance with a bunch of bad QBs?
Shocking. I wouldn’t confront them with logic. It’s likely to anger them.
so with your questions answered, how about you answer this one - if you think all the qbs they've picked so far aren't good, how would you rate daboll's performance with a bunch of bad QBs? [/quote]
I like Daboll and feel he at worst is a very good coach. I like Jones (never said I didn't) and feel at minimum he is a better than average qb. Daboll/Jones may show better with better offensive line play and more quality skill players. We'll see if they get the chance.
Shocking. I wouldn’t confront them with logic. It’s likely to anger them.
LOL
They never miss the chance to criticise Jones every chance they get.
The New York Giants ownership & Administation publicly and vocally absolve Jones of all blame.
“We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here,” Mara said. “We keep changing coaches, keep changing offensive coordinators, keep changing offensive line coaches. I take a lot of responsibility for that. Let’s bring in the right group of coaches now, give him some continuity, try to rebuild the offensive line.” - John Mara
Daniel, early on, again, we got off to that rough start. We had three games in 11 days, there were some injuries after Week 2. On a short week, you're going to play San Francisco without your starting left tackle, starting guard and Saquon. I mean, that's a tough task for anybody. You guys have probably seen San Francisco enough this season to know that's a really good defense. I think does Daniel wish he could have some throws back or some games back or do some things differently? Probably, but it's a team game. There's 11 guys out there and everybody's got to be on the same page and do their job. So, we've got to continue to build the team. The quarterback position is important, but it's ultimately a team game and it's not all on Daniel by any means
Q: Why do you still believe in Daniel? How would you answer that?
A: I mean, I've seen it. You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants. You guys saw the preseason. I just think we got punched in the nose early on and we dug ourselves a hole and we weren't able to get out of it. We're trying to right now, but we still believe in Daniel and the person.
- Joe Schoen
So its left to the fans who have eyes to find his faults because the organization doesn’t see any
He was 1-5 with 2 TDs to 6 ints with the least TDs to pass attempts since the 1930s and no one from this organization can say that he didn’t play well and needs to do alot better. Is that so hard?
We lose 40-0, 36-12, 30-12 and 24-3 and no one can answer a question about QB play with stumbling into an all encompassing team excuse and rambling into a “snowballing effect” excuse to avoid addressing the elephant in the room
Daniel Jones is 22-36-1 over 5 years with just 62 TDs in 60 games. He has never surpassed 6.8 ypa
His college numbers arent much better at 17-19 with 52 TDs in 36 games and never going over 6.8 ypa
There are reasons for this involving him and his weaknesses on the field.
Luckily our WRs and Tight Ends are safe since they can't catch anything.
If Neal, McKethan, and Ezeudu do not pan out, does that mean Schoen should not be trusted to draft an offensive lineman ever again?
It really is that simple.
Because according to you, it’ll be proof that they don’t know how to scout QBs and shouldn’t get another chance. Is that right?
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With a competent OL …..
It really is that simple.
You are spot! Add in the fact the Giants have wr's who can get separation and catch, Daniel Jones will prove himself tot be a top tier qb!
Jack, has this been one of the best Giant offseasons ever you think?
Saying that he is devoid of traits is so biased that your argument becomes unbelievable.
Pros
Jones is a top 5 runner.
He has a strong enough arm.
He is accurate between the hash marks at all three levels.
He can avoid pressure and extend plays
Jones handles the wall well and is adept at RPO and play-action.
Cons
Jones does not handle pressure well and will take unnecessary sacks.
Jones avoids passing down the field and often throws underneath or checks down.
Jones will make ill-advised throws that can lead to interceptions.
Jones does read coverages, but, he does not trust his eyes resulting in him missing open players.
Jesus.
Yup. You've got a spam-bot problem around here. People talking out of their ass and actually believing their own bullshit.
It's funny how getting your ass kicked by a bunch of juiced up 300# monsters the second you catch a snap affects your processing speed. It's been 5 years of a terrible OL combined with subpar skill players who aren't playmakers and have difficulty quickly making things happen. Slayton (the #1 for the last 5 years) is a deep threat. IE basically useless given the lack of pass pro. And people are mad he isn't going through progressions like Montana running Walsh's O. It's a complete jailbreak.
Problem is, after 5 years, I'm not sure it's possible to act normal anymore. I believe he's a corrupted hard drive now.
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You are taking fan opinion as fact. Daniel Jones does not have a weak arm. He is able to read a defense.
Jesus.
Yup. You've got a spam-bot problem around here. People talking out of their ass and actually believing their own bullshit.
It's funny how getting your ass kicked by a bunch of juiced up 300# monsters the second you catch a snap affects your processing speed. It's been 5 years of a terrible OL combined with subpar skill players who aren't playmakers and have difficulty quickly making things happen. Slayton (the #1 for the last 5 years) is a deep threat. IE basically useless given the lack of pass pro. And people are mad he isn't going through progressions like Montana running Walsh's O. It's a complete jailbreak.
Problem is, after 5 years, I'm not sure it's possible to act normal anymore. I believe he's a corrupted hard drive now.
Negative people flock to this stuff like flies do to shit.
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In comment 16506143 Eric from BBI said:
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You are taking fan opinion as fact. Daniel Jones does not have a weak arm. He is able to read a defense.
Jesus.
Yup. You've got a spam-bot problem around here. People talking out of their ass and actually believing their own bullshit.
It's funny how getting your ass kicked by a bunch of juiced up 300# monsters the second you catch a snap affects your processing speed. It's been 5 years of a terrible OL combined with subpar skill players who aren't playmakers and have difficulty quickly making things happen. Slayton (the #1 for the last 5 years) is a deep threat. IE basically useless given the lack of pass pro. And people are mad he isn't going through progressions like Montana running Walsh's O. It's a complete jailbreak.
Problem is, after 5 years, I'm not sure it's possible to act normal anymore. I believe he's a corrupted hard drive now.
Negative people flock to this stuff like flies do to shit.
What’s more negative, that Jones is an average QB who just didn’t work out, or that he was a promising QB talent destroyed by ineptitude and potentially robbed of a promising career ;)
1. BB never had him work with the QB's in two stints. JM was hired after him and put on that track.
2. Saban made him Co-OC which was rare. This one not so strong as they were running a lot of Kiffin's system.
3. As a player he was a DB. Not many highly accomplished NFL HC's who came from a defensive background and were also the chief architect of the offense (including sometimes calling plays).
Daboll had a really unremarkable tenure as an offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach early in his career. Where he really seemed to put it together was Alabama.
I think more than a quarterbacks expert, Daboll has evolved into an offensive expert. He really seems to be able to construct an offensive system that both high and low skill quarterbacks can thrive in. What he did with DeVito at the wheel last year, going from the Jets game to the Packers game was pretty remarkable.
The real quarterbacks expert on the staff is Kafka. His promotion to QB coach coincided with Mahomes ascending to the starting job. Reid was clearly running the offene with Bieniemy doing whatever it was he was doing.
Mahomes on Kafka.
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"Coach Kafka is a special person and a special coach. He kind of took me [under his wing], when he first got here he was quality control and that was my first year as a rookie. I spent a lot of hours with coach Kafka where he was teaching me the playbook and teaching me how to become a quarterback in the NFL. That continued for a long time," Mahomes said.
I'd love to hear Kafka's opinion. Going from Mahomes to Jones must a fucking trip.
It’s really hard for me to give much credit to Daboll for developing QBs at Alabama.He worked with Hurts in 2017 after he had won the starting job in 2016. He worked with Tua as a freshman in 2017 who did very little except for the second half of the championship game. I give him all the credit for developing Allen and since Daboll left Buffalo, Allen’s performance has plateaued.
Kafka was good for Mahomes because Mahomes says he was.
Would I trust Daboll/Kafka to continue Jones development or to develop a new Qb? I’m not sure but that’s all we got. If they stick with Jones, maybe they should bring back Shurmur as special assistant. Too bad his contract expired.
1. BB never had him work with the QB's in two stints. JM was hired after him and put on that track.
2. Saban made him Co-OC which was rare. This one not so strong as they were running a lot of Kiffin's system.
3. As a player he was a DB. Not many highly accomplished NFL HC's who came from a defensive background and were also the chief architect of the offense (including sometimes calling plays).
Thoughts on Schoen thus far? I'd imagine you liked the Burns trade.
When we played Carolina in 2022, I'm pretty sure he was one of the players who stood out. Couple posters whose opinions I value vouched for him so that's a positive as well.
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In comment 16506298 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16506143 Eric from BBI said:
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You are taking fan opinion as fact. Daniel Jones does not have a weak arm. He is able to read a defense.
Jesus.
Yup. You've got a spam-bot problem around here. People talking out of their ass and actually believing their own bullshit.
It's funny how getting your ass kicked by a bunch of juiced up 300# monsters the second you catch a snap affects your processing speed. It's been 5 years of a terrible OL combined with subpar skill players who aren't playmakers and have difficulty quickly making things happen. Slayton (the #1 for the last 5 years) is a deep threat. IE basically useless given the lack of pass pro. And people are mad he isn't going through progressions like Montana running Walsh's O. It's a complete jailbreak.
Problem is, after 5 years, I'm not sure it's possible to act normal anymore. I believe he's a corrupted hard drive now.
Negative people flock to this stuff like flies do to shit.
What’s more negative, that Jones is an average QB who just didn’t work out, or that he was a promising QB talent destroyed by ineptitude and potentially robbed of a promising career ;)
The negativity is people starting 30 threads every day saying the same shit and making shit up like its fact. It's total attention seeking.
When he came out on the other side in Buffalo he oversaw an offense that went from 30th in points in 2018, to 23rd in 2019, to 2nd in 2020.
Personally, I care a lot more about the resilience and accomplishments of a man, and not what position he played in college. But that's the difference between me and others who post on this site.
-has a more than adequate arm to be very successful in the league,
- is very athletic
- is not Mahomes level instinctive, and does not feel the rush like some
- is an introvert, and leads through working (not for everyone, but it works in NY media market.
- is not talented enough to take bottom 20% roster and elevate it to a perennial contender. (Very few are this person, and even those that became superstars had some significant help to build the confidence and resolve to get there).
- is a an injury risk now that he’s been beaten behind terrible o-lines.
- could have some ptsd from historically bad time to throw numbers that make it very hard to push the ball down the field.
- has had a core of receivers in the last three years that could be considered league worst.
Add it up, and it’s a confusing situation for even the smartest football people. I truly believe if we were terrible, truly terrible in 22 and 23 as we should have been then we would be able to rebuild in a simpler way. Jones is a symptom of terrible luck and poor drafts prior to Scheon and Daboll, but the patches on the o-line failing and no alpha on offense in the passing game have really prolonged this shit show.
I don't care how hard your truth is, the standard can't be "didn't draft Purdy". He was literally the last pick, that's extreme revisionist.
Shocking. I wouldn’t confront them with logic. It’s likely to anger them.
Logic or facts. Very inconvenient for the key board warrior GMs
I am not interested in your evaluations Christian. You're not someone I would value in identifying leaders and what it takes to be a good one.
I am not interested in your evaluations Christian. You're not someone I would value in identifying leaders and what it takes to be a good one.
I love you too.