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Are we ignoring DJ has had second worst supporting cast?

Punklicker : 5/8/2024 3:22 pm
Since 2019?

Apologies if this has already been posted and discussed.
DJ Haters will hate this... - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
kickoff : 5/8/2024 8:34 pm : link
In comment 16509961 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 16509756 djm said:


Quote:



H's never had a good defense here. IS that DJ's fault? His OL has been comically bad save for 2022. His WRs have been average at best and that's being kind. Save me the bullshit.





Twice in 62 games has he led this team from the front and made something happen. The colts game, and the vikings game.

Two times in 62 starts he's been able to drive the car somewhere. For as much crying as we can do for the challenges he's had to play around, he's also made players look worse than they are.

He's not good enough.


Well, just off the top of my head I can think of 3 more. GB in England, 2022, 92-yard drive, WO SB to win. Saints 2021 OT win. Arizona 2023, great 2nd half. I know still not enough. Also, I'm sure if I wanted to plow through all 62 games I could find more.
Everyone loves to cite the 2nd half of the Arizona game  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/8/2024 8:39 pm : link
When it's his fault they were in a 20 point hole at halftime in the first place. Memorable for all the wrong reasons.
No. The Giants are and have been an outstanding team  
rnargi : 5/8/2024 8:51 pm : link
Full of superstars and All Pros up and down the roster. It's all Jones, and that's it.
By ignoring  
pjcas18 : 5/8/2024 8:56 pm : link
do you mean some people mentioning it every 5 minutes as the reason Daniel Jones has not demonstrated that he is capable of being an average NFL QB? if that's what you mean yes "we" whoever we is, are ignoring it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
rsjem1979 : 5/8/2024 9:17 pm : link
In comment 16510049 kickoff said:
Quote:




Well, just off the top of my head I can think of 3 more. GB in England, 2022, 92-yard drive, WO SB to win. Saints 2021 OT win. Arizona 2023, great 2nd half. I know still not enough. Also, I'm sure if I wanted to plow through all 62 games I could find more.


The drive you’re referring to against the Packers was in the 2nd quarter.
RE: No.  
Scuzzlebutt : 5/9/2024 7:14 am : link
In comment 16509759 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
But if you point out that other teams with mediocre-to-bad supporting casts on the very same chart have QBs who still put up numbers, that will be ignored.


Can you provide a few examples?
Are we ignoring the fact that the backup QBs played better?  
Roto_Wizard : 5/9/2024 7:39 am : link
With the same players around them and won games, whereas we are trying to use this rationale as an excuse for Jones not succeeding? ……is the better question.
RE: RE: No.  
rsjem1979 : 5/9/2024 7:41 am : link
In comment 16510417 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
In comment 16509759 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


But if you point out that other teams with mediocre-to-bad supporting casts on the very same chart have QBs who still put up numbers, that will be ignored.



Can you provide a few examples?


The two teams directly above the Giants on that chart - Chargers and Jaguars.
RE: RE: DJ's offensive line and WRs have been pretty awful  
JT039 : 5/9/2024 8:01 am : link
In comment 16509780 Darwinian said:
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In comment 16509777 Csonka said:


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A handful of QBs can overcome that. DJ can't.
I'm looking forward to giving him a chance with what we have this year.
No more excuses.



The Jones cult has been saying no more excuses after every off-season and then after the season all we get are excuses.


For someone who has been booted here under multiple IDs and other giants fans site - you would think attacking a very small percentage of fans would not be smart. But I guess you’ll never learn.
RE: RE: RE: No.  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 8:12 am : link
In comment 16510422 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 16510417 Scuzzlebutt said:


Quote:


In comment 16509759 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


But if you point out that other teams with mediocre-to-bad supporting casts on the very same chart have QBs who still put up numbers, that will be ignored.



Can you provide a few examples?



The two teams directly above the Giants on that chart - Chargers and Jaguars.


Herbert has had actual talent to throw to. Their defense has been awful.
RE: RE: RE: RE: No.  
rsjem1979 : 5/9/2024 8:15 am : link
In comment 16510431 Giantsbigblue said:
Quote:
In comment 16510422 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 16510417 Scuzzlebutt said:


Quote:


In comment 16509759 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


But if you point out that other teams with mediocre-to-bad supporting casts on the very same chart have QBs who still put up numbers, that will be ignored.



Can you provide a few examples?



The two teams directly above the Giants on that chart - Chargers and Jaguars.



Herbert has had actual talent to throw to. Their defense has been awful.


Either the chart matters or it doesn’t, and it is for offense only.
RE: Tyrod Taylor and Tommy Cutlets had  
mittenedman : 5/9/2024 8:35 am : link
In comment 16509827 Section331 said:
Quote:
the same supporting class, but were far more successful. The DJFC hates that.


You gotta be shitting me..,
RE: Are we ignoring the fact that the backup QBs played better?  
mittenedman : 5/9/2024 8:38 am : link
In comment 16510421 Roto_Wizard said:
Quote:
With the same players around them and won games, whereas we are trying to use this rationale as an excuse for Jones not succeeding? ……is the better question.


I reject this terrible analysis. The supporting casts were different, as were the opponents.
No one...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/9/2024 8:40 am : link
...is ignoring the team surrounding DJ.

Well, except those that only discuss DJ.
Are we ignoring our team hasn't had a QB1 since Eli Retired  
Modog : 5/9/2024 8:54 am : link
Sure you can the Dan Jones supporting Caseycast was not the best ..but you can easily flip that around.. let's get Nabers, Wandale and Hyatt a QB1!!
RE: Punk  
JerrysKids : 5/9/2024 10:28 am : link
In comment 16509813 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
This video provides the best overview of Jones. Daniel Jones conspiracy theory. - ( New Window )


What about the fact that DJ played Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami all without Andrew Thomas? How can we really judge him off last season? I believe in DJ.
RE: Are we ignoring our team hasn't had a QB1 since Eli Retired  
JT039 : 5/9/2024 10:35 am : link
In comment 16510486 Modog said:
Quote:
Sure you can the Dan Jones supporting Caseycast was not the best ..but you can easily flip that around.. let's get Nabers, Wandale and Hyatt a QB1!!


No it has been mentioned over hundreds times a day on multiple threads and on multiple handles by you and a various others.
Joe Burrow had a equal  
RobThailand : 5/9/2024 10:49 am : link
Or worst line and went to the superbowl
RE: Joe Burrow had a equal  
JT039 : 5/9/2024 10:50 am : link
In comment 16510620 RobThailand said:
Quote:
Or worst line and went to the superbowl


Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins are a weeeeeeeeee bit better than what we have strolled out there.
RE: RE: Multiple things can be true  
BigBlue7 : 5/9/2024 11:00 am : link
In comment 16509872 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16509861 Scooter185 said:


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1) The team around Jones has been bad
2) Jones is a bad QB



Concur.

What Schoen has decided, however, is that #1 is the bigger culprit and if he can solve that, Jones will reach a level of play that most of us can't imagine.


Or you reached that conclusion because that is what you want to believe. Confirmation bias

Giants tried to trade up for a QB and when they couldn't they took a game-changing WR rather than taking any of the other QBs. Which means they didn't want to draft a QB that they saw as not being better than Lock and Jones.

Clearly the Giants want a new QB - but they weren't going to take a QB that they didn't see as the QB of the future. Thus, they made the choice to draft a potentially elite WR and then, hopefully. get their QB next offseason
RE: RE: Joe Burrow had a equal  
bw in dc : 5/9/2024 11:07 am : link
In comment 16510622 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16510620 RobThailand said:


Quote:


Or worst line and went to the superbowl



Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins are a weeeeeeeeee bit better than what we have strolled out there.


Still, Burrow was sacked more than anyone in 2021 with 51 sacks. And in four playoff games, he got sacked another 19x. Per PFF, the Bengals were 29th in the NFL is pass protection, basically tied with NYG for 30th.

Despite all that, he led the league in comp% and YPA.

While you are correct that Burrow has excellent receivers, Burrow had to still deliver the ball while trying to navigate an unreliable OL in front of him.
If QB performance  
Jerry in_DC : 5/9/2024 11:15 am : link
is largely a function of surrounding talent, then paying your QB $46 is really f'ing stupid.
I lived through Danny Kannel and Kent Graham  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/9/2024 12:29 pm : link
pretending to be Giants QBs for several years until they brought Kerry Collins in - and man the difference behind center was immediately noticeable

you can be afraid to hurl it back there - and Dj is just that he takes not real chances - other than with his body
RE: RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
Four Aces : 5/9/2024 1:00 pm : link
In comment 16509915 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 16509842 Four Aces said:


Quote:





Just watch football games not just Giants games and the talent deficit on this roster that last several years has been stark…. Bottom 5 OL/WR/TE group. It’s been a problem well before DJ.



Are we allowed to watch other QBs or just the other 10 players on offense?

If you solely want to watch other QBs be my guest.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow had a equal  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 1:03 pm : link
In comment 16510642 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16510622 JT039 said:


Quote:


In comment 16510620 RobThailand said:


Quote:


Or worst line and went to the superbowl



Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins are a weeeeeeeeee bit better than what we have strolled out there.



Still, Burrow was sacked more than anyone in 2021 with 51 sacks. And in four playoff games, he got sacked another 19x. Per PFF, the Bengals were 29th in the NFL is pass protection, basically tied with NYG for 30th.

Despite all that, he led the league in comp% and YPA.

While you are correct that Burrow has excellent receivers, Burrow had to still deliver the ball while trying to navigate an unreliable OL in front of him.


51 sacks would have been a vacation for the quarterbacks last year.
While we are comparing  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 1:10 pm : link
Burrow was sacked on 8.9% of drop backs that year. Daniel Joned was sacked 15.8% last year which is insane. Daniel Jones career sack rate is 8.6%.
RE: I lived through Danny Kannel and Kent Graham  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/9/2024 1:11 pm : link
In comment 16510777 gidiefor said:
Quote:
pretending to be Giants QBs for several years until they brought Kerry Collins in - and man the difference behind center was immediately noticeable

you can be afraid to hurl it back there - and Dj is just that he takes not real chances - other than with his body
and another Duke QB who we drafted in round one
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
kickoff : 5/9/2024 1:14 pm : link
In comment 16510137 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 16510049 kickoff said:


Quote:






Well, just off the top of my head I can think of 3 more. GB in England, 2022, 92-yard drive, WO SB to win. Saints 2021 OT win. Arizona 2023, great 2nd half. I know still not enough. Also, I'm sure if I wanted to plow through all 62 games I could find more.



The drive you’re referring to against the Packers was in the 2nd quarter.

So it don't count?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
rsjem1979 : 5/9/2024 1:18 pm : link
In comment 16510847 kickoff said:
Quote:
In comment 16510137 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 16510049 kickoff said:


Quote:






Well, just off the top of my head I can think of 3 more. GB in England, 2022, 92-yard drive, WO SB to win. Saints 2021 OT win. Arizona 2023, great 2nd half. I know still not enough. Also, I'm sure if I wanted to plow through all 62 games I could find more.



The drive you’re referring to against the Packers was in the 2nd quarter.


So it don't count?


Sure it counts. Just confirming that one of your fondest Daniel Jones memories (which you clearly didn't remember that clearly) was a TD drive in the 2nd quarter of a game in Early October.

Quite a unique feat.
RE: While we are comparing  
bw in dc : 5/9/2024 1:20 pm : link
In comment 16510835 Giantsbigblue said:
Quote:
Burrow was sacked on 8.9% of drop backs that year. Daniel Joned was sacked 15.8% last year which is insane. Daniel Jones career sack rate is 8.6%.


Do you think Jones was a victim of circumstances, which led that %, or his play was a factor and that elevated that % (last year)?

Taylor, when he was the QB, was sacked 8.6% of the time last year.
RE: RE: While we are comparing  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 1:28 pm : link
In comment 16510855 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16510835 Giantsbigblue said:


Quote:


Burrow was sacked on 8.9% of drop backs that year. Daniel Joned was sacked 15.8% last year which is insane. Daniel Jones career sack rate is 8.6%.



Do you think Jones was a victim of circumstances, which led that %, or his play was a factor and that elevated that % (last year)?

Taylor, when he was the QB, was sacked 8.6% of the time last year.


Some things might have changed like players on the line and the quality of teams as well. We are also comparing Jones to a top 3 QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: you are citing an article with a quote from John Mara  
kickoff : 5/9/2024 1:29 pm : link
In comment 16510851 rsjem1979 said:
[quote] In comment 16510847 kickoff said:


Quote:


In comment 16510137 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 16510049 kickoff said:


Quote:






Well, just off the top of my head I can think of 3 more. GB in England, 2022, 92-yard drive, WO SB to win. Saints 2021 OT win. Arizona 2023, great 2nd half. I know still not enough. Also, I'm sure if I wanted to plow through all 62 games I could find more.



The drive you’re referring to against the Packers was in the 2nd quarter.


So it don't count?



Sure it counts. Just confirming that one of your fondest Daniel Jones memories (which you clearly didn't remember that clearly) was a TD drive in the 2nd quarter of a game in Early October.

Quite a unique feat. [/quo

You're right, should have said, HELPED win the game.
RE: RE: RE: While we are comparing  
bw in dc : 5/9/2024 1:37 pm : link
In comment 16510867 Giantsbigblue said:
Quote:


Some things might have changed like players on the line and the quality of teams as well. We are also comparing Jones to a top 3 QB.


Okay. But how much, IYV, did Jones contribute to that insanely high %?

Why can't I compare Jones to Burrow? Both are lottery picks and were drafted to be force multiplier players.

Thus far, one has held up his end of that bargain.
RE: I lived through Danny Kannel and Kent Graham  
Scooter185 : 5/9/2024 1:38 pm : link
In comment 16510777 gidiefor said:
Quote:
pretending to be Giants QBs for several years until they brought Kerry Collins in - and man the difference behind center was immediately noticeable

you can be afraid to hurl it back there - and Dj is just that he takes not real chances - other than with his body


Before the now infamous Pick 6, there was a play when Jones ran the ball and dove head first into the defender. I yelled at my TV "it's been 5 years and he's still doing that?!"
RE: RE: RE: RE: While we are comparing  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 1:41 pm : link
In comment 16510879 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16510867 Giantsbigblue said:


Quote:




Some things might have changed like players on the line and the quality of teams as well. We are also comparing Jones to a top 3 QB.



Okay. But how much, IYV, did Jones contribute to that insanely high %?

Why can't I compare Jones to Burrow? Both are lottery picks and were drafted to be force multiplier players.

Thus far, one has held up his end of that bargain.


Ones a number 1 overall pick playing with much better players.

Jones sack rate almost doubled what his career average was. You think he all the sudden didn't learn how to get rid of the ball? This is honestly ridiculous.
RE: RE: Punk  
bwitz : 5/9/2024 1:42 pm : link
In comment 16510599 JerrysKids said:
Quote:
In comment 16509813 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


This video provides the best overview of Jones. Daniel Jones conspiracy theory. - ( New Window )



What about the fact that DJ played Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami all without Andrew Thomas? How can we really judge him off last season? I believe in DJ.


Do you believe in Santa and the Easter bunny too?
It’s never going to matter to these Jones sycophants  
bwitz : 5/9/2024 1:43 pm : link
Even though their only argument is, “Let’s see what happens if everything around Jones is perfect.”

Like football is played in a fucking vacuum.
RE: It’s never going to matter to these Jones sycophants  
kickoff : 5/9/2024 2:00 pm : link
In comment 16510890 bwitz said:
Quote:
Even though their only argument is, “Let’s see what happens if everything around Jones is perfect.”

Like football is played in a fucking vacuum.


Not perfect, descent! NFL level competency.
why can't the  
fkap : 5/9/2024 2:56 pm : link
DJ Hate Club concede that maybe Jones could be better than the terrible status they allot to him?

Very few people allege that DJ is the answer. But even fewer will admit there's worse options, and it's not so easy to replace him, or he'd be replaced. There's a great big middle ground.

The overwhelming majority want better than Jones. Comparing him to the best in the business is silly, because no one thinks he's anywhere in that neighborhood.
RE: why can't the  
rsjem1979 : 5/9/2024 3:01 pm : link
In comment 16510961 fkap said:
Quote:
DJ Hate Club concede that maybe Jones could be better than the terrible status they allot to him?

Very few people allege that DJ is the answer. But even fewer will admit there's worse options, and it's not so easy to replace him, or he'd be replaced. There's a great big middle ground.

The overwhelming majority want better than Jones. Comparing him to the best in the business is silly, because no one thinks he's anywhere in that neighborhood.


"Could be worse" is pretty damning for a QB making $40 million per year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: While we are comparing  
bw in dc : 5/9/2024 3:15 pm : link
In comment 16510887 Giantsbigblue said:
Quote:

Ones a number 1 overall pick playing with much better players.

Jones sack rate almost doubled what his career average was. You think he all the sudden didn't learn how to get rid of the ball? This is honestly ridiculous.


Maybe Jones peaked in 2022. And 2023 was a return to his unreliable form with (1) the training wheels removed and (2) DCs having a much better sense how to neutralize DJ as a dual threat.

Furthermore, we have at least three quotes from defenders around the league last year saying/suggesting that Jones was an easy QB to defend because he was showing limited cognitive skills. If he didn't execute his first read, Jones basically couldn't get it done.

If we can't compare Jones to fellow QBs chosen in the lottery, who can we compare him to? Can we compare him to QBs chosen later than Jones in the draft? Like Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes? Can we compare him to QBs not taken on day one? Like Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: While we are comparing  
Giantsbigblue : 5/9/2024 3:35 pm : link
In comment 16510978 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16510887 Giantsbigblue said:


Quote:



Ones a number 1 overall pick playing with much better players.

Jones sack rate almost doubled what his career average was. You think he all the sudden didn't learn how to get rid of the ball? This is honestly ridiculous.



Maybe Jones peaked in 2022. And 2023 was a return to his unreliable form with (1) the training wheels removed and (2) DCs having a much better sense how to neutralize DJ as a dual threat.

Furthermore, we have at least three quotes from defenders around the league last year saying/suggesting that Jones was an easy QB to defend because he was showing limited cognitive skills. If he didn't execute his first read, Jones basically couldn't get it done.

If we can't compare Jones to fellow QBs chosen in the lottery, who can we compare him to? Can we compare him to QBs chosen later than Jones in the draft? Like Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes? Can we compare him to QBs not taken on day one? Like Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts?


So 2022 is his whole career? Do you need attention and are just trolling?
RE: why can't the  
Darwinian : 5/9/2024 3:56 pm : link
In comment 16510961 fkap said:
Quote:
DJ Hate Club concede that maybe Jones could be better than the terrible status they allot to him?

Very few people allege that DJ is the answer. But even fewer will admit there's worse options, and it's not so easy to replace him, or he'd be replaced. There's a great big middle ground.

The overwhelming majority want better than Jones. Comparing him to the best in the business is silly, because no one thinks he's anywhere in that neighborhood.


He was objectively the worst starting QB in the NFL in 2023. Perhaps that is an acceptable result for you. Perhaos you have no standards for the Giants quarterback. But most of us do ha e expectations better than Jones' objective performance.
RE: RE: why can't the  
fkap : 5/9/2024 4:17 pm : link
In comment 16511005 Darwinian said:
Quote:
In comment 16510961 fkap said:


Quote:


DJ Hate Club concede that maybe Jones could be better than the terrible status they allot to him?

Very few people allege that DJ is the answer. But even fewer will admit there's worse options, and it's not so easy to replace him, or he'd be replaced. There's a great big middle ground.

The overwhelming majority want better than Jones. Comparing him to the best in the business is silly, because no one thinks he's anywhere in that neighborhood.



He was objectively the worst starting QB in the NFL in 2023. Perhaps that is an acceptable result for you. Perhaos you have no standards for the Giants quarterback. But most of us do ha e expectations better than Jones' objective performance.


Which part of 'majority want better' escaped your attention? Or the part about it 'not being so easy' to get there?

RIF

Personally, I'd have not given him the contract, and/or would have drafted JJM. But, unless he's injury damaged, I fully expect DJ to do better than the team shit show that got trotted out in early 2023. Probably not good enough for the ultimate goal, but good enough to put us middle of the pack, or better. No one is saying that's good enough. Just that DJ is better than 2023 would have one believe
RE: Sure,  
HardTruth : 5/9/2024 8:11 pm : link
In comment 16510037 BleedBlue46 said:
Quote:
If he has 30+tds and 10 or fewer interceptions with over 4k yards passing. Then he might be worth discussing. Until then, let's stop debating it.


30 TDs? He didn’t even do that in college.
Are we ignoring that he was a #6 pick  
Matt M. : 5/9/2024 8:28 pm : link
and if you are drafted there you should elevate that roster and look more than bad to mediocre yourself?
RE: RE: While we are comparing  
joe48 : 5/9/2024 9:13 pm : link
In comment 16510855 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16510835 Giantsbigblue said:


Quote:


Burrow was sacked on 8.9% of drop backs that year. Daniel Joned was sacked 15.8% last year which is insane. Daniel Jones career sack rate is 8.6%.



Do you think Jones was a victim of circumstances, which led that %, or his play was a factor and that elevated that % (last year)?

Taylor, when he was the QB, was sacked 8.6% of the time last year.

Do you actually watch the games?
RE: why can't the  
bwitz : 5/9/2024 9:14 pm : link
In comment 16510961 fkap said:
Quote:
DJ Hate Club concede that maybe Jones could be better than the terrible status they allot to him?

Very few people allege that DJ is the answer. But even fewer will admit there's worse options, and it's not so easy to replace him, or he'd be replaced. There's a great big middle ground.

The overwhelming majority want better than Jones. Comparing him to the best in the business is silly, because no one thinks he's anywhere in that neighborhood.


Because you’re obtuse and can’t see what’s right in front of your eyes.
Tyron Taylor with a better cast  
mittenedman : 5/10/2024 10:46 am : link
and facing lesser opponents, couldn’t do a fucking thing. He hit a couple deep passes and people are drooling all over themselves.
He did and it fucked him  
Jim in Forest Hills : 5/10/2024 10:47 am : link
I dont think he recovered.
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