The fascination continues. Seems like everybody (including me), is caught up into the rabbit Shane Bowers is ready to pull out of his top-hat. Here's the latest installment -
https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/6/21/24183169/2024-ny-giants-defense-lb-isaiah-simmons-nickel-moneybacker-shane-bowen-analysis 
Not sure why the bad feeling. The pass rush should be improved and while McKinney is a loss, Adoree absolutely is not. We drafted McKinney's replacement and just average work at Bank's opposite corner would be an improvement over last year.
He wouldn't even mention him (and especially talk about him in the exotic "money" role).
Come game-time, if he fails, he's not stuck with him.
The positive "X" factor on defense is Andre' Patterson, you can "bet your boots" he's going to be working with guys like Simmons who despite enormous talent has had trouble mastering the art of the form tackle.
If you've got "time on your hands", their "Summer School" seems like good way to start get defense savvy. I plan to take a look (I sure have a lot to learn)
I like how you’re not making assumptions or jumping to conclusions.
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but I have a really, really bad feeling that the secondary will be the catalyst that tanks our season. I know Simmons could be just playing a nickel LB role, but if we are counting on him for routine snaps at Safety… man I just don’t know. Our CB unit is unproven at best, our safety unit lacks experience. I am really worried we get torched early and often.
I like how you’re not making assumptions or jumping to conclusions.
I don't think his comments on the CBs, Ss or Simmons could be called assumptions. Conclusions are anyone's guess.
Confident in the safety personel. Interesting young
talented group. No ones walking over these guys.
Confident in the safety personel. Interesting young
talented group. No ones walking over these guys.
Anything is possible. But just looking at things in a logical sense, I am not sure I can get to that level of optimism. Historically, CB is one of the hardest positions for players to quickly develop. Our CB #1 is a second year guy who flashed as a rookie, but also had some issues. Our CB #2 could very possibly be a rookie or another second year guy who had an even more rocky rookie season. Pinnock is a decent safety, but then you have Nubin who is another rookie expected to play a big role right away. Seems like a lot to ask of a young secondary, with a first year defensive coordinator, and few solid experienced vets.
As far as secondary.....certainly young....certainly more questions than answers at this point.....but the depth and talent offers hope imo.
We kind of know what Holmes and McCloud brings....Hawkins, Herndonm Flott...even A.Robinson....all offer high ceiling.i think Banks is a stud and our WRs will actually give them a decent workout in practice.
As far as secondary.....certainly young....certainly more questions than answers at this point.....but the depth and talent offers hope imo.
We kind of know what Holmes and McCloud brings....Hawkins, Herndonm Flott...even A.Robinson....all offer high ceiling.i think Banks is a stud and our WRs will actually give them a decent workout in practice.
George- you are correct in that Dex, Burns, Thibs (and I would add Okereke) are the figures who will make this defense. However, you still need an adequate secondary to compete in this league. The pass rush is not going to get home every play, and I don’t think you can count on all of these guys staying healthy in a 17 game season. Any QB in this league will pick apart a subpar secondary unit. We don’t really know what Herndon is. Robinson offers a high ceiling? When has he ever been healthy? Flott offers a high ceiling? He has serious lapses in judgment and understanding coverages in just about every game. There is a ton of optimism for guys who haven’t proven a thing so far. I think it could be a mistake.
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In comment 16541255 Keaton028 said:
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but I have a really, really bad feeling that the secondary will be the catalyst that tanks our season. I know Simmons could be just playing a nickel LB role, but if we are counting on him for routine snaps at Safety… man I just don’t know. Our CB unit is unproven at best, our safety unit lacks experience. I am really worried we get torched early and often.
I like how you’re not making assumptions or jumping to conclusions.
I don't think his comments on the CBs, Ss or Simmons could be called assumptions. Conclusions are anyone's guess.
Unfounded assumption, and in Simmons' case a fucking dumb one.
The Cards 2 highest paid players after Kyler Murray are safeties: Budda Baker and Thompson. Once they extended Thompson during '22, Simmons was going to have to earn his keep at LB or a hybrid role specific to him. And then, if he excelled, get paid. Could of worked - we don't know. But it's a faff with cap allocations implications so easy to see why the Cards cut bait instead.
By not signing X the Giants retained flexibility in allocating secondary dollars. If Simmons excels in his role(s), we can accomodate it financially.
Watch the tape - he's a freak. Few players -- and none his size -- can make 5 yards disappear faster. He jumps like an NBA center. He hustles - if there was a stat for "% Plays With Helment in Picture at Tackle", he'd lead the team.
Given his tweenerdom, his future success is no sure thing. But outside of shedding blocks from dudes far bigger than him, there's very little he can't do. Were he forced into a 100% safety role it's not ideal, but he could do it. He'd be an exploitable liability covering some WRs -- like most safeties. But he'd bring unique capabilities in other ways.
Bottom line - to the Giants he's like a box of free Powerball tickets. Worst case you'll get ROI on the time spent scratching them. Best case, jackpot.
Could get ugly fast with a questionable secondary.
I still think Simmons' best attribute is blitzing. He can get through a hole in the O line quickly.
You can believe Simmons is a “freak”, and he is an athletic player. He also hasn’t really found a role he has excelled at on either the Giants or the Cardinals. He was not a hot commodity coming into last season, hence the Giants being able to get him for a 7th. You are allowed optimism for believing in Simmons based on very little. I think I am also allowed to be realistic on Simmons based on his history in the league so far.
(1) This whole discussion is based on a teaser clip for Hard Knocks.
(2) In that clip, Bowen did NOT say "Simmons is an integral part of what we are doing." Bowen was asked by another person in the room how Simmons might fit into his defense. BIG DIFFERENCE.
(3) Simmons was re-signed to a 1-year, $2 million contract with only $300,000 signing bonus, $325,000 roster bonus, and $100,000 workout bonus. In other words, he's dirt cheap.
(4) Many fans don't understand the concept of nickel linebacker. There is nothing new here. Simmmons has been doing similar things throughout his pro career. He won a game for the Giants in OT last year intercepting a pass and returning it for a TD. He has the ability to do those kind of things.
The potential is there for our inexperienced secondary to get beat a lot this year. Simmons playing a ton of snaps at Nickel CB or Safety would likely exacerbate this. That was all I was trying to say.
The potential is there for our inexperienced secondary to get beat a lot this year. Simmons playing a ton of snaps at Nickel CB or Safety would likely exacerbate this. That was all I was trying to say.
If you are worried about too much inexperience (odd given the Giants won't be contenders anyway...this is the year to gain experience), the you want Simmons in there. He's the vet.
That being said, I've said repeatedly since they hired Bowen that the defense is going to run a ton of nickel and dime. There will be more DBs on the field than any other position. The base defense is going to have Banks, Flott, and our rookie 3rd rounder starting.
But so many here are expecting us to contend despite serious deficiencies. And I expect the Giants leadership are expecting to contend, right? Surely, they don’t go into the season expecting anything less? But how can a team continue to do this when it has serious question marks at important units? Forget QB. Last season they rolled into it with major questions on the interior offensive line. It tanked their season when AT went down. This year I am kind of seeing the same thing with the CBs. How can a staff expecting to compete go into the season penciling in Banks and Flott as the starting CBs?
The caveat to this is of course if they sign someone. Then all of this is moot. There is still time so no real panic yet. But if it is Banks and Flott week 1 we might be in trouble.
The presumption is Nubin will beat out Belton because he's a brainy mature player. Phillips is going to make the team but he has lots of veteran competition.
And then there's Simmons - the veteran Swiss army knife. Who wore the green dot his last year in AZ.
If a rookie or 2 beat out a vet to start, while they'll make rookie mistakes, by definition not too many -- else they'll cede the job back to a vet.
It's a nice mix of young vets and newbs with potential.
A secondary (and OL) with good players who mature as a unit and play together across seasons is greater than the sum of its parts. Worth some growing pains.
I think a larger concern is how long the whole D will take to learn Bowen's system -- though for me, much less since Eric in Li mapped out the system lineage (thanks for that).
Were Burns not here, solid wouldn't be good enough. And too many injuries forcing green guys in at one time is always a bad situation.
Were Burns not here, solid wouldn't be good enough. And too many injuries forcing green guys in at one time is always a bad situation.
I am not trying to be a douche, and I totally respect your opinion. But what returns have you seen outside of Banks and Pinnock? Banks definitely showed he belongs in the NFL, but he struggled mightily when put on true #1’s. Flott has shown tremendous mental lapses in most games he has played in. And he isn’t a very good tackler. Nubin is an unknown, who we hope comes right in and contributes. Philipps could surprise, but also isn’t a very good tackler. Belton has had some nice plays. Hawkins played limited time after starting last season really poorly.
I appreciate the civil responses btw, and I do hope to be wrong about this unit.