First of all happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers and hell even the mother f@& $?3?s on here.
Not making the same mistake like last week this will be the only place I’ll be online untill after it airs. Well maybe some golf clash. I’m sure leaks will be out there as the episode draws closer.
Battle of Mother’s Day the mother of dragons vs “pregnant “ Cersei. Don’t think more than half the episode will be battle but could be epic. I think the death toll will be high this episode since most everyone somehow survived the BoW. Maybe a little foreshadowing but the episode Tywin died was on Father’s Day could his daughter have the same fate tonight?
I think we will see that or Drogon gets armor.
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Did Drogon lay eggs in Valyria back in Season 5? Will his/her babies come and help?
I think we will see that or Drogon gets armor.
More likely armor. I’m hoping the twist will be a faceless man and it not being Arya or jaqen
Until proven wrong. This
Two more episodes, and it's put out of its misery.
The biggest twist at this point would be good writing.
That said, I'm still looking forward to the show and hope it's entertaining even if it has gotten a bit silly
The Enemy Within has been interesting too.
That said, I'm still looking forward to the show and hope it's entertaining even if it has gotten a bit silly
I read an article today about GOT. It seems that every Stark that's told a big lie has died. Ned Stark lied about treason in order to save his daughters and he is beheaded. Robb Stark lied to Walter Frey about marrying his daughter and we know how that ended. Catelyn Stark admitted that she lied when she prayed to save Jon Snow as an infant. She said that she would love her as her own but then couldn't keep the promise. If this trend continues Sansa is in deep shit.
Yeah but those aren't huge lies. I think this will come to pass I was just passing along a new theory in a long line of failed ones. With the way this season has gone we will probably see several new dragons appear and the Night King transferred his consciousness into the Mountain.
One crazy twist I could see playing out is that the Night King transferred his consciousness into Bran when he touched him a few seasons ago.
The Enemy Within has been interesting too.
I'm expecting another letdown. At this point I'd be happy with a simple Mountain/Hound fight.
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Have been looking forward to it all week. This, Blacklist, and The Good Doctor are three of my favorites on TV.
The Enemy Within has been interesting too.
I'm expecting another letdown. At this point I'd be happy with a simple Mountain/Hound fight.
We all know it will happen. It will end with the Mountain fatally wounding the Hound but Arya will kill the Mountain and we will get an emotional goodbye between the two.
This thread has an interesting mix of possible stealth spoilers and innocent speculation. Enjoy the show, all.
Unfortunately, I have little expectations the last two episodes are gonna be any better
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Have been looking forward to it all week. This, Blacklist, and The Good Doctor are three of my favorites on TV.
The Enemy Within has been interesting too.
I'm expecting another letdown. At this point I'd be happy with a simple Mountain/Hound fight.
At this rate I expect The Hound to emerge victorious and deliver a one-liner just prior to his death blow: "Time to become a molehill."
I'm expecting some Hamlet-type of shit with Jaime killing Cersei and Euron, but Euron delivering a fatal blow.
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Who knows. Perhaps Euron's +50 True-shot spell enhancement will have worn off by this episode and Drogon will have a chance.
I'm expecting some Hamlet-type of shit with Jaime killing Cersei and Euron, but Euron delivering a fatal blow.
I could manage that, compared to recent stupidity.
Great episode. Bravo
Great episode. Bravo
Hah, felt the complete opposite. Put this show out of its misery.
I thought it was fantastic. They went out the way they came in: together
Sansa will take her out.
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Because I really don't know where they go from here. Okay, Dany is officially a tyrant and a brutal dictator. Okay? You think she's going to give Tyrion or Jon Snow or even Arya in whatever face she wants to take a chance to kill her?
She's going down.
Sansa will take her out.
Think Arya. As in - Dany has green eyes.
And she couldn’t have done that to the iron fleet the last time Ok.
Hound Vs Sir Gregor was at least a good end for those two Dany losing it was telegraphed. Not bad but very predictable Not Martinesque IMO but at least more plausible than some of the other stupid plot lines. .
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Because I really don't know where they go from here. Okay, Dany is officially a tyrant and a brutal dictator. Okay? You think she's going to give Tyrion or Jon Snow or even Arya in whatever face she wants to take a chance to kill her?
She's going down.
Sansa will take her out.
I mean it's all but certain, but I don't like it. So Dany is now full-on crazy and will probably want to wipe out all the Starks, particularly Jon and Sansa. She has the whole entire army behind her. If they're going to kill Dany, it needs to be REALLY creative. Like Arya taking the face of Gray Worm or some shit.
And she couldn’t have done that to the iron fleet the last time Ok.
Hound Vs Sir Gregor was at least a good end for those two Dany losing it was telegraphed. Not bad but very predictable Not Martinesque IMO but at least more plausible than some of the other stupid plot lines. .
Yeah, that was fucking weird. Euron gave Jaime some pretty good stabbings. How the fuck did Jaime survive enough to walk all the way to Cersei?
And yeah, fair point on the Iron Fleet.
So who kills Dany? Jon, Arya or Tyrian?
It’s obvious to me this whole season Dany has been set up to take the fall by making her out to be unmerciful, crazy, and heartless. I’m sure my “love” for her to reign over the 7 Kingdoms is vastly in the minority.
The whole world wants JON AEGON SNOW TARGAYEAN to rule. I’m sure they will get their wishes next Sunday. In order for that to happen, Queen D has to go.....sigh!
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Twice and shrugging it off like a paper cut. Ok. All to die w Cercei meh
And she couldn’t have done that to the iron fleet the last time Ok.
Hound Vs Sir Gregor was at least a good end for those two Dany losing it was telegraphed. Not bad but very predictable Not Martinesque IMO but at least more plausible than some of the other stupid plot lines. .
Yeah, that was fucking weird. Euron gave Jaime some pretty good stabbings. How the fuck did Jaime survive enough to walk all the way to Cersei?
And yeah, fair point on the Iron Fleet.
The last time Dany was up there against the Iron Fleet she was still in Tyrion mode of trying to take KL more peacefully. This time she flipped and wanted to just kill everyone. Hence attacking the Iron Fleet (and everything else) rather than pulling back to be more diplomatic
So who kills Dany? Jon, Arya or Tyrian?
Glad to see Varys get his...that traitor. What I wasn’t glad about was Arya did not complete her task and kill Cersei like she has been saying for 5 seasons. She got talked out way too easily. Cersei dying that way would have been better. Dying in Jamie’s arms just didn’t satisfy me enough.
In season 7 the dragons definitely did this kind of damage. Against the White Walkers the NK had that icy misty thing going on, I guess to hinder the dragons effectiveness (thats my take anyway)
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Twice and shrugging it off like a paper cut. Ok. All to die w Cercei meh
And she couldn’t have done that to the iron fleet the last time Ok.
Hound Vs Sir Gregor was at least a good end for those two Dany losing it was telegraphed. Not bad but very predictable Not Martinesque IMO but at least more plausible than some of the other stupid plot lines. .
Yeah, that was fucking weird. Euron gave Jaime some pretty good stabbings. How the fuck did Jaime survive enough to walk all the way to Cersei?
And yeah, fair point on the Iron Fleet.
Much better this week. But that was silly. No one is walking around after those stabs but maybe Sir Gregor the walking dead Knight. He would have been dead pretty quick and way too weak to walk anywhere.
I’m thinking this is very doable. Obviously she would have to kill someone close to D.
He is undead. What’s unclear about that?
Some sort of Zombie thing...
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During the show? The way dracarius just destroyed everything and everyone made it look like the white walkers would have been a piece of cake to destroy. It’s like for some battles they have more power and capability then in other battles. Why didn’t they light up Euron the day he killed the second dragon?
In season 7 the dragons definitely did this kind of damage. Against the White Walkers the NK had that icy misty thing going on, I guess to hinder the dragons effectiveness (thats my take anyway)
I agree they had to be wary because of the ice pick from the night king. But that ice pick would not have a chance to be used the way that dragon was f’ng things up tonight.
But I get that they are just trying to get us to go along with the fact the white walkers had the weather and the ice pick on their side in order to advance the plot.
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We know he's not human, but this isn't like fucking Lord of the Rings. He's not a fucking orc.
He is undead. What’s unclear about that?
So he's a white-walker? When was he revealed to be undead?
Also why wouldn't Daenerys go right after the red keep? She didn't really have to burn tje whole city to get what she wanted. Mad queen was a bit overkill.
It was. This was the one I wanted. We had a couple of setup episodes and the last two there was some stuff that sticks out but this was the one I wanted to bring it home. The tone, the pace, the payoff... all great.
This will be her undoing. Now we get to see Jon Snow reign over the 7 kingdoms. If only Dany showed some restraint and power under control. I guess that scene of losing her dragon and Missandei was still strong in her mind.
I'm not really a Star Wars fan, but it does seem like Dany's trajectory throughout the series mirrors Anakin's/Darth Vader's.
This will be her undoing. Now we get to see Jon Snow reign over the 7 kingdoms. If only Dany showed some restraint and power under control. I guess that scene of losing her dragon and Missandei was still strong in her mind.
Exactly, this is the setup. Those events "flipped" her into the same mindset as her dad. I think its perfect. I mean I bet her dad the Mad King wasn't always a madman either
I think that would be a really cheap way out, though.
Also why wouldn't Daenerys go right after the red keep? She didn't really have to burn tje whole city to get what she wanted. Mad queen was a bit overkill.
Your thinking here is my thinking as well.....I was disappointed in Arya for losing her edge. I too wanted Cersei to have to deal with Arya rather than go by falling rocks in the arms of that loser, Jamie.
This will be her undoing. Now we get to see Jon Snow reign over the 7 kingdoms. If only Dany showed some restraint and power under control. I guess that scene of losing her dragon and Missandei was still strong in her mind.
I think its going to be jarring for some people who might have been rooting for Dany since Season 1 but really all the signs have been there the whole time. The very first season starts off talking about the Mad King and we've watched her transition into a power hungry ruler for quite a few seasons now. Also knowing the people in Westeros didn't love her, her hand had failed her, Varys betrayed her, Jaime betrayed her, and above all Jon betrayed her on top of losing a dragon (child) and best friend. It's actually pretty believable to me that she would torch it all down.
I think that would be a really cheap way out, though.
This would be the worst ending without a doubt. I hope no one even considered this.
Utterly. At least the actor got a paycheck? Other than than that?
Agree. I was hoping both Tyrion and Varys would get “drakerous” but I only got one of the two.
Well, to be fair, that's like being the tallest dwarf (no offense, Mr. Dinklage)
The bloodline has always been susceptible to madness allegedly due to inbreeding and Dany's mother and father were sister and brother.
Jon does not have that issue.
I did. Looked like it had real promise. At first I thought they were going with some new show similar to the purge.
She can add Queen of Ashes to her long list of titles.
Some people are still bitching and nitpicking. It was a great, great TV show. Very well done and gripping
Definitely. It was the one I wanted. Thought it was great.
The bloodline has always been susceptible to madness allegedly due to inbreeding and Dany's mother and father were sister and brother.
Jon does not have that issue.
Yup.
Thought it was when I heard of it originally but looks pretty different. No glowing naked blue guy thankfully.
Speaking of upcoming, when's Deadwood start? In the middle of season 2 now
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The Watchmen series coming this fall? Is that based on the comic book/movie?
I did. Looked like it had real promise. At first I thought they were going with some new show similar to the purge.
Totally new story. I think I read it’s a continuation of what happens
After the graphic novel ends
Nah. If you go back and look at all of the other seasons, she's a pretty dark character with a sadistic streak. I would have had her assistant die a more horrible death and/or Jorah also die at the hands of Cersi to push her completely over the top.
But all leaders are isolated and alone. And when her inner circle started to die off or betray her, she was even more alone. Then she sees the people of her home country LOVE John. It's too much.
My wife said, "there is no way she is going to torch the city" after they rang the bell. I said, "Yes, she is. She's been pushed over the edge."
The bloodline has always been susceptible to madness allegedly due to inbreeding and Dany's mother and father were sister and brother.
Jon does not have that issue.
Correct. GRRM admitted as much. He said the reason why the Targaryen clan tends to go mad is because of the inbreeding, but yet, they're elitists and the only suitable mates are fellow Targaryens.
However, I give them immense credit for the non-Hollywood type finish. Their ending was much more realistic.
She can add Queen of Ashes to her long list of titles.
Yeah, she didn’t really need the Dothraki, the Unsullied, anyone......all she needed was her dragon. This was a one woman wrecking crew.
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Just dumb as can be. Turned Dany into the worst character of all time. Not just mad..but over the top evil. Writing in crayon now.
Nah. If you go back and look at all of the other seasons, she's a pretty dark character with a sadistic streak. I would have had her assistant die a more horrible death and/or Jorah also die at the hands of Cersi to push her completely over the top.
But all leaders are isolated and alone. And when her inner circle started to die off or betray her, she was even more alone. Then she sees the people of her home country LOVE John. It's too much.
My wife said, "there is no way she is going to torch the city" after they rang the bell. I said, "Yes, she is. She's been pushed over the edge."
I thought the bell ringing scene was awesome. All of the USA was probably sitting silently, waiting to see what she would do. It could have gone either way.
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In comment 14441122 Anakim said:
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The Watchmen series coming this fall? Is that based on the comic book/movie?
I did. Looked like it had real promise. At first I thought they were going with some new show similar to the purge.
Totally new story. I think I read it’s a continuation of what happens
After the graphic novel ends
So no Rorschacht? Awesome. Now I don't have to be distracted by what I see on his face.
I dont even think I counted more than 10 on screen at the same time. That first push there were like 7 Dothraki on horses and then the soldiers were running up right behind them. There definitely wasn't a lot of them.
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Take her dragon over to where Cersei was hanging out and torch that one building? Why kill all the citizens of KL?
This will be her undoing. Now we get to see Jon Snow reign over the 7 kingdoms. If only Dany showed some restraint and power under control. I guess that scene of losing her dragon and Missandei was still strong in her mind.
I think its going to be jarring for some people who might have been rooting for Dany since Season 1 but really all the signs have been there the whole time. The very first season starts off talking about the Mad King and we've watched her transition into a power hungry ruler for quite a few seasons now. Also knowing the people in Westeros didn't love her, her hand had failed her, Varys betrayed her, Jaime betrayed her, and above all Jon betrayed her on top of losing a dragon (child) and best friend. It's actually pretty believable to me that she would torch it all down.
Well said. If you think about it, everything’s been building to her going scorched Earth. Plus, the Unsullied and Dothraki were never going to realistically serve a political end forever - they were built up to be an emotionless army of killers plus a cavalry built on a lifestyle of raping and pillaging. It would have been unrealistic for them to stand by and just live in peace all the way through to the end.
I thought they did a great job with Clegane Bowl - only way that could end, but they made it epic. And call me a sap but I loved the Hound convincing Arya to let go of her lust for revenge.
I agree with the crowd that the Euron-Jaime fight was kinda silly. I’m fine with how Jaime and Cersei died, but wish it was by dragon fire.
Wow tough to hear that. I’m not as down on these episodes are you but think nearly all the issues could have been resolved by just having full seasons.
That's another thing that bothered me. Where the fuck did the Dothraki come from? They were completely wiped out. And so were the Unsullied, for that matter, but especially the Dothraki.
I replied, "No, she's not. She's going to torch them all."
What I liked too is they provided the on-the-ground perspective of the humanity suffering from the decisions of those above. The one girl and her mother were almost like the girl in the red coat from Schlinder's List.
We've been over this a million times and Ive posted the words straight from their lips. There was always supposed to be 7 seasons for 7 books. Instead of one long 7 season they split it in half, the same thing Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and countless other big shows have done. We actually got three additional episodes.
I think her jumping off the tower ala her son, or Drogon completely eviscerating the tower with her in it are more realistic, but I didn't mind the end at all. It was a nice touch like you said.
However, I give them immense credit for the non-Hollywood type finish. Their ending was much more realistic.
I’m one of those who wanted someone to take her out.....rocks falling just doesn’t have that sex appeal. I was hoping either Dany or Arya could have finished the task but I’m now convinced the writers don’t want Dany’s Star to shine too brightly.
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Just dumb as can be. Turned Dany into the worst character of all time. Not just mad..but over the top evil. Writing in crayon now.
Nah. If you go back and look at all of the other seasons, she's a pretty dark character with a sadistic streak. I would have had her assistant die a more horrible death and/or Jorah also die at the hands of Cersi to push her completely over the top.
But all leaders are isolated and alone. And when her inner circle started to die off or betray her, she was even more alone. Then she sees the people of her home country LOVE John. It's too much.
My wife said, "there is no way she is going to torch the city" after they rang the bell. I said, "Yes, she is. She's been pushed over the edge."
Mad is one thing. Torching everything and everyone was dumb. Last week a dragon gets bullseyed three straight shots and today nothing. Just dumb
But this battle was fantastic, from the very start of her coming out of the sun to attack the fleet.
Dany will have Drogon, the Unsullied, and about 12 Dothraki.
But in this espide, Dani's blood was up. In battle, once your blood is up, there often is no logic. It's the reason why human history is filled with such horror. I found it completely believable.
But this battle was fantastic, from the very start of her coming out of the sun to attack the fleet.
If you go back and watch Episode 3 again, you do see horses and some Dothraki running back with Jorah, etc and that's just one small shot. Presumably if there's a couple running back in one shot, similar fleed along the battle lines as well. They also mentioned the "remaining Dothraki" in the last episode and beginning of this one. I didn't get the impression there were a lot of them.
Too much Arya I see.......that is a fair point though.
Dany, though not facing defeat per se, going scorched Earth is completely in line with what one would expect from a Targaryen monarch.
But this battle was fantastic, from the very start of her coming out of the sun to attack the fleet.
They did slip in the comment that half the Unsullied were left in the last episode, and then seemed to show half the Dothraki being taken off their big giant Risk board too. They implied there were still a good number of them, but they’ve mostly skipped over covering any realistic tactical military explanations, why start now I guess.
Regardless, the point was once the gates of the city were blown open, it didn’t take that many combined forces to storm the city.
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for these last 2 shorten ones, and people wonder why it feels so rushed/nothing pays off. Absolutely pathetic.
We've been over this a million times and Ive posted the words straight from their lips. There was always supposed to be 7 seasons for 7 books. Instead of one long 7 season they split it in half, the same thing Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and countless other big shows have done. We actually got three additional episodes.
Well it isn't that certain, you abject apologist. Read the link. But let's say it is - they still have FUCKED this thing up beyond belief. They had YEARS to come up with a better resolution that bothered to include any of the plot from the first 5 seasons..
Link - ( New Window )
I had an issue with that too, but when the rest of the episode redeems all of that I'm more willing to overlook it imo.
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I dont even think I counted more than 10 on screen at the same time. That first push there were like 7 Dothraki on horses and then the soldiers were running up right behind them. There definitely wasn't a lot of them.
Sandor references being killed by the Dothraki in the episode. There were plenty of them. There shouldn’t have been a single one left after episode 3. But I guess they respawned.
I think when people look back on the final season, they will point to some highlights (episode #2, #5, and hopefully #6) with some silly mistakes made that could have gotten us from point A to point B with far more realistic scenarios. I'm just glad that tonight didn't suck. I enjoyed. I found it realistic. I actually paused it (which my wife HATES) when Dani looked so gaunt in the beginning and was addressing Tyrion. She FELT completely ALONE. I said, "This is the best part of the season so far." Put yourself in her shoes. It's all falling apart.
How convenient.
I felt the inconsistent thing was Rhaegar not being able to take out the harpoon/spear ship from the distance where they were able to shoot him down.
I don't think the destruction today was inconsistent, the lack of destruction two weeks ago was inconsistent IMO.
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In comment 14441152 Nitro said:
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for these last 2 shorten ones, and people wonder why it feels so rushed/nothing pays off. Absolutely pathetic.
We've been over this a million times and Ive posted the words straight from their lips. There was always supposed to be 7 seasons for 7 books. Instead of one long 7 season they split it in half, the same thing Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and countless other big shows have done. We actually got three additional episodes.
Well it isn't that certain, you abject apologist. Read the link. But let's say it is - they still have FUCKED this thing up beyond belief. They had YEARS to come up with a better resolution that bothered to include any of the plot from the first 5 seasons.. Link - ( New Window )
Im not going to go looking for it again. B and B did an interview around Season 4-5 and flat out said the original plan all along was to do seven seasons. Yes they changed it and split the 13 later. No matter how many episodes they did though, it was still going to feel rushed with this many characters and this many storylines.
Yes, but episode #3 made it feel like hardly anyone was left.
I felt the inconsistent thing was Rhaegar not being able to take out the harpoon/spear ship from the distance where they were able to shoot him down.
I don't think the destruction today was inconsistent, the lack of destruction two weeks ago was inconsistent IMO.
Tonight was like the destruction the dragons did in Season 7
I mean they already put in the effort on screen to show how all the people were being brought into the keep. Destroying it with everyone inside just to kill Cercei would have been perfect.
It made zero sense why she wanted to starting torching peasants starting from the outer walls.
the mid-westeros......?
I think when people look back on the final season, they will point to some highlights (episode #2, #5, and hopefully #6) with some silly mistakes made that could have gotten us from point A to point B with far more realistic scenarios. I'm just glad that tonight didn't suck. I enjoyed. I found it realistic. I actually paused it (which my wife HATES) when Dani looked so gaunt in the beginning and was addressing Tyrion. She FELT completely ALONE. I said, "This is the best part of the season so far." Put yourself in her shoes. It's all falling apart.
Completely agree. And I too kinda expected this season to be a little disjointed and rough with them having to wrap so much. I said it last week, I just wanted one really solid payoff episode... Similar to how season 6 wrapped up with two of the best episodes in the series IMO (episodes 9 and 10). I think we are going to see something similar this year with 5 and 6.
I mean they already put in the effort on screen to show how all the people were being brought into the keep. Destroying it with everyone inside just to kill Cercei would have been perfect.
It made zero sense why she wanted to starting torching peasants starting from the outer walls.
She's got the blood of her father running through her veins. Combine that with her isolation and she's out for blood.
Her earlier rhetoric about breaking the wheel and stopping the bloodshed was just that... rhetoric.
But in this espide, Dani's blood was up. In battle, once your blood is up, there often is no logic. It's the reason why human history is filled with such horror. I found it completely believable.
She was caught off guard last week, and the dragon that was hit didn’t have a rider. She expected the projectiles this week and avoided them.
The dragon being hit by a frozen javelin thrown by the NK - that was weak.
I mean they already put in the effort on screen to show how all the people were being brought into the keep. Destroying it with everyone inside just to kill Cercei would have been perfect.
It made zero sense why she wanted to starting torching peasants starting from the outer walls.
Did they every show Dany spotting Cersei?? I dont think she knew what tower she was in, she could have been anywhere, and I also think there was a small part of Dany that may have wanted to sit on the Iron Throne which is why she might have held off on parts of the castle until later.
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In comment 14441147 UConn4523 said:
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I dont even think I counted more than 10 on screen at the same time. That first push there were like 7 Dothraki on horses and then the soldiers were running up right behind them. There definitely wasn't a lot of them.
Sandor references being killed by the Dothraki in the episode. There were plenty of them. There shouldn’t have been a single one left after episode 3. But I guess they respawned.
Yeah that's still strange to me since you flat out see some of them running back to the pack in Episode 3 just like we saw with Jorah but any hoo.
I've been binge watching some of the Game of Thrones YouTube videos and put on some of the reaction videos today. My wife walked in, watched about 5 minutes of it, and said, "You have to turn that shit off." There are people out there who almost think this is real. Loyalty to a character from a book/TV show? Yikes.
Regardless, Dany's descent was predictable as it comes as soon as we learned about John. There wasn't going to be a Hollywood finish to this. And the easiest option was Danny would follow her father.
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To kill danerys?
I’m thinking this is very doable. Obviously she would have to kill someone close to D.
It would have to be Grey Worm, who they most likely have to kill anyways to get to her.
I think she has said she's moving on from acting.
I doubt it. She doesn't have the look of a lead actress and that's basically all you need in this day and age. Talent be damned.
Ring the bells = KL surrenders? Or not? Or just kill them all ringing bells or not? I don't get it. But anyway you slice it, Tyrion's number is up next week.
Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
Lastly, apparently Jaime is the Black Knight in Spamalot. "Tis but a flesh wound."
I think he's the one who ends up on the throne. Jon will refuse it after Dany is killed.
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She could have made a beeline for Cercei, but decided to avenge Missandei by lighting every peasant on fire first? Would have looked better if she was shown burning through innocents in an effort to get revenge, searching for Cercei, etc. Would have been just as savage and wrong.
I mean they already put in the effort on screen to show how all the people were being brought into the keep. Destroying it with everyone inside just to kill Cercei would have been perfect.
It made zero sense why she wanted to starting torching peasants starting from the outer walls.
She's got the blood of her father running through her veins. Combine that with her isolation and she's out for blood.
Her earlier rhetoric about breaking the wheel and stopping the bloodshed was just that... rhetoric.
I mean, so does Jon.
I get it. I just don't think it was done all that well on screen. And I've felt Dany was a poor, emotional leader for a long time now. Like I said it would have been more believable if she was mowing through innocents and justifying it by going after Cercei. She made no attempt to even look for Cercei until the city was destroyed.
THAT I am enjoying immensely. She has been unlikable for a while now.
All I can say is I felt it coming, I didn't think Dany was going to stop.
Ring the bells = KL surrenders? Or not? Or just kill them all ringing bells or not? I don't get it. But anyway you slice it, Tyrion's number is up next week.
Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
Lastly, apparently Jaime is the Black Knight in Spamalot. "Tis but a flesh wound."
I think the green is that chemical crap that lies underneath KL. The stuff that Cercei used to blow up the religous zealots in Season 5 (I think it was 5 right).
Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
It was reminiscent of when the courthouse exploded, killing Marg Tyrell and all those religious zealots.
I liked how they went out because no one predicted that finish. Everyone thought someone was going to directly kill her. Instead, her kingdom literally fell down on her head.
Brienne should have screwed Tormund.
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Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
It was reminiscent of when the courthouse exploded, killing Marg Tyrell and all those religious zealots.
The wildfire was all over kings landing. Not just in the one spot you saw it during the trial. I think that was brought up in earlier seasons
Really? Cersei is a total bitch on the show. I mean she's a huge villain. I never read the books, but I can't imagine the books painting her so much worse than how she's depicted on the show. Her only redeeming quality, like you said, is her immense love for her children. Besides that, the only two times we actually felt sorry for her was the Walk of Shame and tonight.
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Is Tyrion. He’s turned into an annoying nag.
I think he's the one who ends up on the throne. Jon will refuse it after Dany is killed.
I doubt it. After what he witnessed I think he has a change of heart about it.
Ring the bells = KL surrenders? Or not? Or just kill them all ringing bells or not? I don't get it. But anyway you slice it, Tyrion's number is up next week.
Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
Lastly, apparently Jaime is the Black Knight in Spamalot. "Tis but a flesh wound."
They have said earlier on that Dragon Fire bombs are stored all over the city
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Only the first 3, but the one thing different for me where they deviate is with Cersei. Cersei is just painted as a much bigger villain in the books. I've always empathized with Cersei on the show. She still had to go but I've always been able to see her side with a lot of her views. She loved her children and Jaime... I really liked how she went out. It fits.
Really? Cersei is a total bitch on the show. I mean she's a huge villain. I never read the books, but I can't imagine the books painting her so much worse than how she's depicted on the show. Her only redeeming quality, like you said, is her immense love for her children. Besides that, the only two times we actually felt sorry for her was the Walk of Shame and tonight.
I get it. And I know a lot of people feel that way. I think her father never really took her seriously. She lost her mother when she was young... I also thought a lot of the time she was "being a bitch" on the show it was actually pretty funny. Like when in Season 2 during the Blackwater Battle she was getting drunk waiting to go. Like I said, she had to die, but I always kind of empathized with her. I completely accept being on that island alone. lol.
Yeah, she really does suck as one
Ring the bells = KL surrenders? Or not? Or just kill them all ringing bells or not? I don't get it. But anyway you slice it, Tyrion's number is up next week.
Also, not that big a deal, but when the dragon's flying around lighting KL on fire every once in while you'll see green fire, like the pyromancer fire, break out. No explanation, it just happens. Why? Also, dragon fire makes stone buildings spontaneous erupt or fall down. A bit much.
Lastly, apparently Jaime is the Black Knight in Spamalot. "Tis but a flesh wound."
It’s pretty common knowledge at this point that wildfire is hidden beneath the city, Cersei found it and used it to blow up the Sept of Baelor.
Dragons are cool.
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and 1/2 of the UNsullied. They removed them from the game board.
How convenient.
They only brought the blood riders to winterfell
Agreed.
Yep.
Not only that, but all of a sudden, her army grew again?
I was sort rooting for some more unexpected deaths. If Arya died, or Jon Snow, that would have been a real jolt.
I did love everything with Jamie and Cersi. She was so stunned, that she couldn’t put one foot in front of the other.
1 something with a faceless man (not Arya or jaqen)
2 bran being the evil mastermind behind it all
3 bran wakes up from when he fell and it was a dream
I could live with 1 or 2 but the third would really suck
Cool story brah.
Lol. It's a fantasy show! Anything can happen!
Drogon and Daenerys represented Benioff and Weiss.
Kings Landing represented the fans.
The Hound represented George RR Martin.
The Mountain represented the last two books.'
He's actually a completely different character now. He's a marginally intelligent, humorless, reactionary disciple.
He used to be razor sharp, hilarious, one step (at least) ahead of everyone else, and no respector of persons.
They basically killed him without killing him.
Yea, but the fan service Brienne bang out!
If it was all just personal revenge for getting burned, The Hound could have fought him to the death a long time ago. Nothing was stopping him when they worked for the Lannisters. Since the Hound left the Lannisters in Season 2 until now, no reason has been given for why he now thought it was important to square off against him.
As for this episode, it's by far better than every episode this season. I felt Euron/Jaime and Clegane bowl was cheesy. One things that bugs me is that they tout these large armies and then show a couple dozen guys. The golden company was small, same with Jon's ground troops, and Euron went from having this massive fleet to a couple of boats. Ignoring issues stemming from prior seasons, I enjoyed it for what it was. I thought Jaime dying with Cersei was touching. I felt sympathy for her at the end and glad she didn't die alone. Dany's meltdown didn't seem completely out of character. She's always been a shitty leader with a sadistic streak and entitlement issues. Curious how next week plays out
From a story standpoint the last 2 seasons have been a rushed mess lacking any pacing. They made a galactic mistake cutting down the number of episodes - especially since the extra episodes would have likely been all talking/minimal action anyway. Although with the way the writing has been perhaps they did us a favor.
That was extremely entertaining TV but the overall story is building towards a mostly unsatisfying end. I was hoping this final season would deliver 1 more "hold the door" moment but the michael bay comparisons are spot on. I know everyone wants to act like the mad queen thing has been set up appropriately just because she toasted the Tarly's and Varys made some comments here and there but I just don't buy it. What was it the s6 finale when she was telling yara/theon they were going to leave the world better than how they found it?
I’m a sucker for visuals too so some of it was fun to see. But count me as being disappointed by Cercei’s ending. You build up a villain, you expect justice. This was pretty much get hit by a bus or die of old age. I feel like there should be at least some retributative quality to her death.
One thing I don’t understand is who and why rang the bells? Is that a universal (Westerosal?) no mas signal? Jon and (perhaps) Greyworm we’re supposed to pull up when the bells rang but the only way the bells could get rung would be by Cercei’s capitulation (per her conversation with Tyrion) and that brought about through asking for terms or by Jaime convincing her to ring them to surrender. Neither happened and yet someone, presumably someone in authority rang them. That puzzles me.
As they should be. The character they like pulled a complete betrayal of every value that had been repeatedly established over 7 seasons for absolutely no substantiated reasons, simply because some hackish writers wanted to impose it upon the story they usurped.
I liked how they referenced the fucking Princess Bride of all things by having the Hound easily dispatch the other guards before staring down his prey and saying, "I am Sandor Clegane. You are my brother. Prepare to die."
It reminds me of Dep and Eli.
I thought the Cersei/Jaime ending was fitting. People complain when characters like Jorah get heroic deaths, and then complain when characters like Cersei and Jaime get non-heroic deaths. The last 2 seasons haven't been quite as good but it's cool now to hate on Thrones. It's still fantastic tv. I'm sorry everyone on the internet didn't get to write the script and direct all the episodes, I guess.
I guess we will never know what the voice said to Varys when they burned his parts.
Cleganebowl - When the Hound told the Mountain that "he knew who was coming for him" I never thought it was going to be the Hound.
Bran was told that he would fly. I guess there is still time, but I always expected it to be in dragon form, not just as a raven.
Cersi always believed that she would be killed by a sibling. I thought for sure that Arya had come across a dying Jaime, and took his face. I was expecting Arya to cross another name off of her list. Instead we got a finish to the Lanister's that no one expected. So while possibly less satisfying, fitting none the less.
I Tyrion's insisting on Dany's acceptance of surrender at the ringing of the bells, was a plan that he had in place with Cersi. I thought that they would stand down, then the wildfire would erupt, finishing Dany's army, and destroying Kings Landing, and all of the civilians anyway.
And I've always felt that the only way that Jamie could ever really redeem himself is by killing Cersei himself - but him running back to be by her side is pretty consistent with his character. He never stopped loving her. And the kingslayer dying while trying to comfort the queen he helped put in to power is poetic.
Meanwhile, this episode contrasts that sharply with Dany, who now feels completely alone in the world and has seemingly abandoned her own humanity and regard for life. Her transformation in to her father the Mad King is complete as she makes the decision to fulfill his last wish and destroy everyone in Kings landing. The remaining green fire under the city that he was going to use to execute his plan igniting itself served to make clear that Aerys is exactly who she has become.
It’s a little absurd that he wrote the first book nearly 25 years ago and still hasn’t finished the series.
I’d like to read the ending but I can’t really get mad at it if I don’t.
I don’t get this one at all. In my opinion Clarke has been spot on whenever the spotlight has been on her. I don’t know what you expect.
But it is obvious to me Clarke polarizes people’s emotions.....you either love her (like me) or you dislike her (like you).
The state of play at the end of Episode 5 would basically be the same, except Dany's culpability and madness would be less clear, forcing Jon, Davos and Tyrion to deal with some moral ambiguity in Episode 6.
I think Arya killing Greyworm will be the way she can get close to Dany since he is the one always by her side. Arya obviously takes his face one last time to accomplish this task.
The drawback to this plan: do we really want ARYA to kill both the Night King and the Mad Queen? Is that too much Arya? I don’t believe they will want Jon Snow to be the guy who kills her because then it may appear he is nefarious too.
So, then the next question becomes, who will rule over the 7 k8mgdoms?
Jon
Tyrion
Sansa
?
Does that make it the Irony Throne?
I'm here all week, folks.
I liked Arya walking away from it.
I liked Jamie and Cersei alone, frightened below the castle.
I thought the actress who played Dani was terrific this episode, think about it, she's really alone. Even her man is now rebuking her, she trusts no one anymore, she was just betrayed by Varys.
I wanted Sandor to that thing to the eyes to his brother.
It was a mess but an enjoyable mess for me.
that said the complaining is more annoying than the praise. like it great, don't like it great. it's a f-ing TV show.
I still watch because of the investment, first the books, then the shows and at it's worst it's certainly not Dexter. The drop-off is more like the Wire season 5.
Anyway, as I said previously Dany's heel turn was predictable and expected. Sitting on her dragon, the city fell, surrendered, she said she'd call off the attack. Jon, Grey Worm and the rest of the unsullied faced the golden company and kingsguard who dropped their weapons, pivotal moment, and Dany went full targaryen.
the heel turn that I thought was forced was Jamie. the speed in which he went from "I have to help save the realm" to "oh my god I have to save Cersei" seemed forced. His character arc from first villain in the story, to noble knight, back to villain didn't really seem true to the story to me.
So now it's come down to a bat shit crazy Targaryen assuming the iron throne and Starks, Lannisters, and Baratheon's (among others) banding together to remove them. Seems like the story will end how it started. Plot devices at this point may not be fully developed and quality is not season 1 - 4, but it's still a riveting show for many.
That dragon has some stamina! how much napalm came out of his mouth?
Could we see a showdown with Dany and Jon a la Disney -
Not a Pony or dog but a dragon having to choose between two people? Dany ordering the dragon to fry Jon and the dragon filled with indecision?
Tormund - does he reappear - during the Jon/Tormund goodbye scene he hinted he may be back
The state of play at the end of Episode 5 would basically be the same, except Dany's culpability and madness would be less clear, forcing Jon, Davos and Tyrion to deal with some moral ambiguity in Episode 6.
Yeah, that would require a nuance the show used to have but no longer does in exchange for booms and "OMG SUBVERSION OF EXPECTATIONS". Your idea is fantastic. It's a shame the show runners and writers can no longer pull that kind of thing off.
Dany's turn was about as telegraphed as you can get and still somehow made no sense. Why wait until you have literally won everything you've been trying to attain for 7 years to snap like that? They should have given her a reason, in that moment, to torch the city.
If she still had two dragons and watched one of them die at that moment...
If Missandei wasn't executed until that moment...
If the surrender was a ploy by Cersei who lured her troops in before setting off another wildfire bomb...
If she surveyed the field and saw the common people fighting against her troops (Killing Grey Worm?)...
So many possibilities to give some plausible reason for someone who sees herself as a champion of the people, breaker of chains, blah blah blah to go apeshit and "burn them all" at the moment of their victory and the culmination of everything they've worked so hard for.
It’s a little absurd that he wrote the first book nearly 25 years ago and still hasn’t finished the series.
I have a feeling we are going to get a release date for Winds of Winter shortly after Game of Thrones wraps up. The one thing that’s been obvious about Martin over the last 10 years is that he loves the spotlight this show has brought him, and now that it’s over the best way to stay in it is to release the books.
I’d like to read the ending but I can’t really get mad at it if I don’t.
I'm hoping he's as pissed about how they handled the last 2 seasons and it provides some extra motivation for him to finally finish the books!
To some extent Dany may be becoming the Mad QUeen, but I think there is more of a calculation that is happening, rather than she is burning innocent people because she is crazy.
Disliked: Euron v Jaimie; I agree w/Bluebeard WRT one final push was needed for Dany to snap; Tyrion freeing Jaimie wasn't anticipated by Dany
Meh: Clegane Bowl; Jaimie / Cersie; 45 mins of Drogon burning the city
I think Arya killing Greyworm will be the way she can get close to Dany since he is the one always by her side. Arya obviously takes his face one last time to accomplish this task.
The drawback to this plan: do we really want ARYA to kill both the Night King and the Mad Queen? Is that too much Arya? I don’t believe they will want Jon Snow to be the guy who kills her because then it may appear he is nefarious too.
So, then the next question becomes, who will rule over the 7 k8mgdoms?
Jon
Tyrion
Sansa
?
There is a zero percent chance that Jon does not kill Dany.
On a side note, I wonder how they are going to address Jamie and Cersi "disappearing"... no one should ever know what became of them. They would never find the bodies. "Did they get away? Did they die?"
On a side note, I wonder how they are going to address Jamie and Cersi "disappearing"... no one should ever know what became of them. They would never find the bodies. "Did they get away? Did they die?"
Arya would know.
I think so as well. Jorah was her moral compass IMO. Once she lost him there was nobody to talk sense into her since she obviously doesn't trust Tyrion.
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I dont even think I counted more than 10 on screen at the same time. That first push there were like 7 Dothraki on horses and then the soldiers were running up right behind them. There definitely wasn't a lot of them.
Right after Drogon blows up the front gate they charge and there was a shit ton of Dothraki charging. I turned to my wife and asked how the hell are there so many Dothraki there when they were basically wiped out at Winterfell?
I thought the Cersei/Jaime ending was fitting. People complain when characters like Jorah get heroic deaths, and then complain when characters like Cersei and Jaime get non-heroic deaths. The last 2 seasons haven't been quite as good but it's cool now to hate on Thrones. It's still fantastic tv. I'm sorry everyone on the internet didn't get to write the script and direct all the episodes, I guess.
This. The butt hurt is real.
I actually wonder if this comes into play with Tyrion versus Dany. "Did you help them escape?" (Which in fact, he did try to do).
He was an exiled knight (actually ordered killed by Ned) and a spy for Varys, and almost led to Dany being killed and her whereabouts known, now he's her most trusted confidante.
Just shows you how desperate she is for someone to be loyal to her that he's her most loyal subject (after of course freed slave/interpreter missandei). another Targaryen trait is trusting no one.
Tyrion and Varys as advisors? holy shit she's an awful judge of character.
I actually wonder if this comes into play with Tyrion versus Dany. "Did you help them escape?" (Which in fact, he did try to do).
I think Tyrion will be the one to figure it out and announce it to Dany once he discovers the boat that he left for them to escape is still there.
Honestly I was expecting a close battle with Dany winning and possibly being killed in the process. That was as one sided a fight as we have seen and that is with Dany losing most of her army at the Battle of Winterfell.
Loved the twist of Dany turning Mad. Sets up one last Targaryen battle for the Throne (or what’s left of it). Hoping Bran has a part to play in the last part, maybe warging into Drogon and taking him out of play in batttle). One thing I think still rings true to my earlier predictions is that the 7 kingdoms will all come together to support one ruler, I think they come all to support Jon as part of Varys last efforts. Dany is alone in Westeros with an army of foreigner warriors. Jon will have to kill her.
Jon on the other hand has been through many trials and has consistently shown that he is level headed.
I actually wonder if this comes into play with Tyrion versus Dany. "Did you help them escape?" (Which in fact, he did try to do).
No, I was thinking maybe their faces could wind up in the hall of faces.
I forget if the killer (or someone) needs to actually skin their faces and place them there like Arya did the waif or if they just show up, but similar to how Arya was Walder Frey, should could use their faces.
I'd be surprised if not locating the actual bodies of two people in a city Dany completed destroyed leads to her "final" betrayal by Tyrion, but at this point anything is possible.
I can't follow all this stuff.
Honestly I was expecting a close battle with Dany winning and possibly being killed in the process. That was as one sided a fight as we have seen and that is with Dany losing most of her army at the Battle of Winterfell.
Imagine what the three dragons would have done!
I can't follow all this stuff.
Targaryen's are not fire proof.
History is filled with "inevitable" holocausts simply being delayed. Game of Thrones was never going to have a "happy" ending.
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fire proof? So Dany can try to fry him and then freak when he doesn't burn up? Same with Jon, no?
I can't follow all this stuff.
Targaryen's are not fire proof.
Some are, like Daenerys.
Honestly I was expecting a close battle with Dany winning and possibly being killed in the process. That was as one sided a fight as we have seen and that is with Dany losing most of her army at the Battle of Winterfell.
I agree with this - for so much of the past 2-3 seasons, Dany has been held back from unleashing their full power by everyone around her, all trying her to win the war via politics, not fire and blood.
Olenna's advice to her proved prescient - she finally stopped listening to her advisors and went full nuclear.
Of course, that was apparently how the whole story sets up the end game - to win the war, she had to become the thing she professed for so long to be fighting against.
This was telegraphed for a while in the books and in the show. While it obviously feels rushed this season because literally like a week a ago she helped save the north, it does feel right, as tough as it was to watch.
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
Jon is not fire proof as he burned his hand saving Lord Commander Mormont back in season 1. Daenerys we've seen full on touching and walking through fire.
This was telegraphed for a while in the books and in the show. While it obviously feels rushed this season because literally like a week a ago she helped save the north, it does feel right, as tough as it was to watch.
Honestly, I am not saying you are wrong, just asking the question. You think Martin wrote all these books to circle back to the reenact the event Jamie stopped when he killed the Mad King? Maybe he did, but that seems to me to be a waste of time. Not that DANY wouldn't turn out that way, but it seems like a lot drama for history to be just "delayed." I guess in some ways it is similar to the Godfather when Puzo has Michael profess to be something other than Vito but then becomes even worse than him. But, Michael's downfall was carefully plotted and did not seem rushed in what was a about 5 hours of screen time. They had about 80 hours to do this and it just feels hollow as a plot.
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
When he saw Varys approach Jon he was forced to rat him out. Part of Tyrion knows that Varys is right but he was tried to convince himself that Dany is good deep inside. He still tried to save Cersei at the very end even after learning that she hired Bronn to kill him. I don't like how the turned Tyrion into a constant fuckup.
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Agree with above, I don't smell a happy ending here.
Jon is not fire proof as he burned his hand saving Lord Commander Mormont back in season 1. Daenerys we've seen full on touching and walking through fire.
Dany is full Targaryen while Jon is half Targaryen half Stark.
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actually feels like the plot point that is most true to what GRRM would have written. A happy ending with her and Jon ruling together was never realistic.
This was telegraphed for a while in the books and in the show. While it obviously feels rushed this season because literally like a week a ago she helped save the north, it does feel right, as tough as it was to watch.
Honestly, I am not saying you are wrong, just asking the question. You think Martin wrote all these books to circle back to the reenact the event Jamie stopped when he killed the Mad King? Maybe he did, but that seems to me to be a waste of time. Not that DANY wouldn't turn out that way, but it seems like a lot drama for history to be just "delayed." I guess in some ways it is similar to the Godfather when Puzo has Michael profess to be something other than Vito but then becomes even worse than him. But, Michael's downfall was carefully plotted and did not seem rushed in what was a about 5 hours of screen time. They had about 80 hours to do this and it just feels hollow as a plot.
Tough to say, maybe he would appreciate the symbolism of Dany sort of finishing the job that her father intended when he yelled "burn them all." Additionally, I think Dany destroying the city in a blind rage that represented her family's conquest 300 years earlier is pretty powerful.
It is very Michael Corleone-esque, even if it became a bit clunky along the way this season and last. We can say seasons 7 and 8 are the Godfather III of this series. Still decent, but nowhere near what came before lol.
Believe me, I totally understand the frustration with the rushing, but I don't think this just came out of nowhere. There were a lot of hints through both her words and actions along her journey that she was capable of this destruction, blinded by her ambition. I think if we could have had a full 10 episode season that culminated in this, it would feel more earned. But it was not completely unearned, and I'm generally ok with it.
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Why did Tyrion rat out Varys? Why didn't Dany kill Tyrion as well?
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
When he saw Varys approach Jon he was forced to rat him out. Part of Tyrion knows that Varys is right but he was tried to convince himself that Dany is good deep inside. He still tried to save Cersei at the very end even after learning that she hired Bronn to kill him. I don't like how the turned Tyrion into a constant fuckup.
She may still kill Tyrion, especially after he let Jaime go. Again as I stated above, this could be where Bronn comes back in to save Tyrion's skin again. Then the Bronn getting Highgarden scene would make sense. With Tyrion and Jaime gone he'd get nothing
Good catch. One of my favorite things about this series is if you go back and re-watch it, how much was foreshadowed.
The tie-ins are great too... check out this tribute video.
Game of Thrones || Everything We've Been Through - ( New Window )
I think that symmetry makes sense.
Martin says the ending is bittersweet, so I think something like Jon dying while taking out Dany and someone like Sansa winding up on the throne now seems possible.
Though I still think the Gendry/Arya merger would have worked and led to a targaryen being replaced by a Baratheon (again). i predicted he would be made legitimate, I'm not sure that was done just for the obvious purpose at the time. If they had an Edric Storm character in the show it would be interesting.
Revanshe: “So she won’t be able to do it again?”
George R.R. Martin: “Probably not.”
The scene at Vaes Dothrak where she burns it down is not a book scene.
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"A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing"
Good catch. One of my favorite things about this series is if you go back and re-watch it, how much was foreshadowed.
The tie-ins are great too... check out this tribute video. Game of Thrones || Everything We've Been Through - ( New Window )
Nice video. Agreed, I think the fall of Dany is one of the plot points done right this season it was has obviously been a bit up and down.
That'll come into play next week in a big way, I'm sure.
She may still kill Tyrion, especially after he let Jaime go. Again as I stated above, this could be where Bronn comes back in to save Tyrion's skin again. Then the Bronn getting Highgarden scene would make sense. With Tyrion and Jaime gone he'd get nothing
I am fully expecting one of two things next week. Either she kills Tyrion for betraying her or she order his death but that is the final straw for Jon and he kills her to save Tyrion.
I thought the golden company was going to put a serious dent in her army but they were wiped out so easily. The moment when Harry Strickland was running away from the army showed just how formidable and terrifying the Dragons are. Here is the best army in the world and they are wiped out with ease.
All of those setbacks were central to the mad queen turn and many of them were among the most strategically illogical storylines the show has had (especially the expedition north of the wall to try to negotiate with Cersei and then even sillier trusting her). It was just a couple seasons ago that Dany was almost killed over trying to close the fighting pits. And now she's killed more innocents than Cersei and the mountain on their worst days? Because her side suffered a bunch of defeats that drove her to madness over the past couple seasons because she was...trying to avoid the slaughter of innocents.
I wish there could be a do-over on the last couple of seasons. So many of these episodes and storylines have missed the mark. The action is cool but this show was never about that, yet its the only real thing i've been able to enjoy about it at this point. Even last night there was about 5% fighting, 90% CGI.
I doubt he wargs into a dragon.
I think Jon "takes over" Drogon because of his Targaryen blood.
Maybe we get some answers in the prequel series, but I'd be shocked if they touched on it next week
I've given up on GRRM actually finishing these books. He put out the first three - with the third book being the best - within four years. Then he took five years for the next one, six years for the one after that - and nothing in the eight years since. He should just give someone like Brandon Sanderson the outline of the books and let him finish it.
Here are the books and years they were published:
A Game of Thrones (1996)
A Clash of Kings (1998)
A Storm of Swords (2000)
A Feast for Crows (2005)
A Dance with Dragons (2011)
I wish there could be a do-over on the last couple of seasons. So many of these episodes and storylines have missed the mark. The action is cool but this show was never about that, yet its the only real thing i've been able to enjoy about it at this point. Even last night there was about 5% fighting, 90% CGI.
Much to agree with here. It feels rushed. And the Jon-Dany relationship wasn't well developed for either to feel particular affinity for each other.
But my biggest complaint about this final season is what I've repeatedly said. There were better ways to get from point A to point B that were more realistic. I wish episode #1 was more like #2. The plot holes in #3 and #4 is what really bothered me. I felt they did a fine job last night of setting up a good finale... just don't blow it.
No, its on 5/19. They wouldn't put it on Memorial Day Weekend.
No, I think it's next week, and a documentary about the "Making of the Final Season" will air on May 26, with behind-the-scenes footage, interviews, etc.
I doubt he wargs into a dragon.
I think Jon "takes over" Drogon because of his Targaryen blood.
I have always believed that the magical elements would all be gone at the end. If Bran does Warg into Drogon I think it will be save Jon. Dany is now the Mad Queen and Jon is a huge threat that she will not want to suffer. Once Grey Worm tells Dany that Jon ordered his soldiers to stand down after they started slaughtering the Lannister army that surrendered she will lose it.
Answers in terms of what? His army is gone.
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and his army or are they just going to leave it alone?
Answers in terms of what? His army is gone.
Seriously? What was the meaning of the repeated circular pattern that he kept leaving behind. Who was he originally?
I wish there could be a do-over on the last couple of seasons. So many of these episodes and storylines have missed the mark. The action is cool but this show was never about that, yet its the only real thing i've been able to enjoy about it at this point. Even last night there was about 5% fighting, 90% CGI.
Truth be told the little bit of story/scheming they've done has been bad so it's probably a better decision to go action. The action has been the best executed aspect of these final 2 seasons. The loot train and last night were probably the high points in terms of entertainment.
s7 had flaws but I was hoping since they took 2.5 years off s8 would be better but it's been even more contrived as they race to wrap everything up. And what's happened in s8 only makes s7 look sillier in hindsight. Maybe they got dealt a shitty hand trying to stick to Martin's vision but if so they've also played that hand very poorly.
All of those setbacks were central to the mad queen turn and many of them were among the most strategically illogical storylines the show has had (especially the expedition north of the wall to try to negotiate with Cersei and then even sillier trusting her). It was just a couple seasons ago that Dany was almost killed over trying to close the fighting pits. And now she's killed more innocents than Cersei and the mountain on their worst days? Because her side suffered a bunch of defeats that drove her to madness over the past couple seasons because she was...trying to avoid the slaughter of innocents.
I think when this is all over, and we rewatch the series again after knowing how it ends, we'll see how Dany's worst impulses were tempered by others around her.
I don't pay too much attention to her political rhetoric about being the "better" and "kinder" alternative than those of the past. That's just self-aggrandizing narcissism. She wants power.
Although to be fair later on in the episode the shots from Arya's point of view do make it seem like she's just going crazy lighting the whole city on fire.
I'd like to believe he's got a ton of content written, and I don't think he wants anyone other than himself to publish the end of it. I think we get some news this year with the show ending.
Exactly. They made a big leap establishing revenge hungry and reckless and then showing someone who is thirsting to kill all innocents. The first shot was her going after a bunch of fleeing peasants, not even the Lannister soldiers. Just bizarre.
I think when this is all over, and we rewatch the series again after knowing how it ends, we'll see how Dany's worst impulses were tempered by others around her.
I don't pay too much attention to her political rhetoric about being the "better" and "kinder" alternative than those of the past. That's just self-aggrandizing narcissism. She wants power.
Possible - I don't think this was an issue of something happening out of the blue. It was the way it happened suddenly. On a re-watch I don't think it will feel any less rushed that in the span of like 20 minutes of show time Sansa broke her promise to Jon, Dany lost her 2nd dragon, and Missandei, and her advisors started betraying her.
He never attacked because Westeros (it's implied) he could not pass the wall (at least that's what I think)
There needs to be a final confrontation between Jon and Dany, but it will not be physical. He is too loyal to his word to attack someone to whom he has sworn allegiance. I think it will be something like Dany ordering Jon to execute Tyrion and him refusin, and choosing instead to be banished north of the wall. I don't see her killing Jon and fostering a revolt, or him killing her.
I'd like to believe he's got a ton of content written, and I don't think he wants anyone other than himself to publish the end of it. I think we get some news this year with the show ending.
I agree - and maybe this is wishful thinking but I wouldn't be shocked if he releases the whole thing at once or finishes it together but announces 2 release dates. Or something to that effect.
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In comment 14441478 Jay on the Island said:
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and his army or are they just going to leave it alone?
Answers in terms of what? His army is gone.
Seriously? What was the meaning of the repeated circular pattern that he kept leaving behind. Who was he originally?
And why did the Children of the Forest create such a horrible monster?
I just want to know what those damn circles were about! lol
And why did the Children of the Forest create such a horrible monster?
They didn't mean to create such a huge monster. They just wanted help versus the first men but once they got out of control the COTF joined forces with the first men to defeat the NK.
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In comment 14441517 RobCarpenter said:
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In comment 14441478 Jay on the Island said:
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and his army or are they just going to leave it alone?
Answers in terms of what? His army is gone.
Seriously? What was the meaning of the repeated circular pattern that he kept leaving behind. Who was he originally?
And why did the Children of the Forest create such a horrible monster?
the First Men invaded north of the wall and would cut down their trees (sacred weirwood trees). the children of the forest were peaceful nature worshippers and almost waif-like in appearance and couldn't really defend themselves without magic and sorcery, so they created the Night King (again only in the show) to defend themselves.
I cancel my subscription to HBO.
Game of Thrones Recap: For Whom the Bells Toll - ( New Window )
I did. I thought Dany was going to lose her 3 "children" just like Cersei did.
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I hope we’ll see much more of her in the years to come. That scene with the horse was great.
I doubt it. She doesn't have the look of a lead actress and that's basically all you need in this day and age. Talent be damned.
Look at the best actress nominees for 2019 and get back to me.
Sticky Bandits!
Classic!
I think when this is all over, and we rewatch the series again after knowing how it ends, we'll see how Dany's worst impulses were tempered by others around her.
I don't see it that way. There are some scenes that could be stretched and distorted to be a foundation for this turn: those in which she orders her dragons to burn a tyrant, or the scene in which she locks her handmaiden in a vault for her betrayal, or where she burns those who refuse to bend the knee. None of them serve as evidence that she'd eventually abandon all care for innocents and lay waste to an entire city that had already just surrendered.
At this rate they ought to reveal Jon to be a child molester, on the grounds that he once got close to Olly only to be betrayed by him.
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I think when this is all over, and we rewatch the series again after knowing how it ends, we'll see how Dany's worst impulses were tempered by others around her.
I don't see it that way. There are some scenes that could be stretched and distorted to be a foundation for this turn: those in which she orders her dragons to burn a tyrant, or the scene in which she locks her handmaiden in a vault for her betrayal, or where she burns those who refuse to bend the knee. None of them serve as evidence that she'd eventually abandon all care for innocents and lay waste to an entire city that had already just surrendered.
At this rate they ought to reveal Jon to be a child molester, on the grounds that he once got close to Olly only to be betrayed by him.
I feel like GRRM is laughing his ass off replying to internet comments anonymously somewhere insisting that the writers should have spent more time writing a better ending.
I don't see it that way. There are some scenes that could be stretched and distorted to be a foundation for this turn: those in which she orders her dragons to burn a tyrant, or the scene in which she locks her handmaiden in a vault for her betrayal, or where she burns those who refuse to bend the knee. None of them serve as evidence that she'd eventually abandon all care for innocents and lay waste to an entire city that had already just surrendered.
At this rate they ought to reveal Jon to be a child molester, on the grounds that he once got close to Olly only to be betrayed by him.
I'm with Eric here. I've been rewatching the earlier seasons and there is way more foreshadowing of her turn, then I remembered:
1. Threatens to return and burn Qarth down when they initially prohibit her and her Dothraki "horde" (there's like 20 left at this point) from entering.
2. After she takes Yunkai, the masters in Mereen nail 163 child slaves to crosses along the route from Yunkai to Mereen. Then, after the masters in Mereen surrender with minimal blood loss, Dani nails 163 masters to crosses throughout the city, depsite Jorah and Sir Barriston advising against it.
3. When she's ruling in Mereen and hears about the former Yunkai slaves basically using force and re-imposing slavery on the weaker slaves, she initially sends the 2nd Sons to squash the "rebellion" before Jorah is able to talk some sense into her.
Again, they may as well turn Jon into a child murderer and say, "You're surprised? He's Targaryen after all... and let's not forget he executed Olly."
I agree with this review. Sepinwall's so good, he summed up basically what I think about the episode.
I'd like to believe he's got a ton of content written, and I don't think he wants anyone other than himself to publish the end of it. I think we get some news this year with the show ending.
I very much hope you are right. And I've been waiting a long, long time. But when he wrote the first three books he had an idea of how it would play out, even if he didn't have the specific scenes written. My guess is that what we saw is part of what GRRM imagined for King's Landing - with Dany's dragons scorching it - though the details are undoubtedly different.
It’s one thing to be ruthless, as Daenerys has always been; it’s another to be truly cruel and evil. Daenerys’s actions in “The Bells” were the latter. She instigated a completely unnecessary mass killing, a vicious act that is entirely outside her established character. Maybe Dany, who has much of the same foreshadowing in George R.R. Martin’s books, was always destined to become the Mad Queen—it just doesn’t make sense for it to happen without the show demonstrating any internal conflict or nuance. Yes, Daenerys recently lost two of her dragons in Rhaegal and Viserion, two of her closest friends in Jorah and Missandei, and Jon’s affections. All of that adds fuel to her rage, but it’s not clear what sparks it. If Dany had caused so much collateral damage as a byproduct of her quest for the throne, her heel turn would at least have been consistent with her character. Instead, she blindly kills thousands with no clear goal in mind. Say what you will about Dany’s inherent tyrannical tendencies, but murdering innocent children and families in their homes has never been who she is. The broad strokes may have been suggested earlier, but the specifics came out of nowhere.
The Unearned Madness of Daenerys Targaryen - ( New Window )
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In comment 14441522 Eric from BBI said:
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I think when this is all over, and we rewatch the series again after knowing how it ends, we'll see how Dany's worst impulses were tempered by others around her.
I don't see it that way. There are some scenes that could be stretched and distorted to be a foundation for this turn: those in which she orders her dragons to burn a tyrant, or the scene in which she locks her handmaiden in a vault for her betrayal, or where she burns those who refuse to bend the knee. None of them serve as evidence that she'd eventually abandon all care for innocents and lay waste to an entire city that had already just surrendered.
At this rate they ought to reveal Jon to be a child molester, on the grounds that he once got close to Olly only to be betrayed by him.
I feel like GRRM is laughing his ass off replying to internet comments anonymously somewhere insisting that the writers should have spent more time writing a better ending.
He has had 25 years to write the ending and still hasn't done it.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
You sound like the possessive one.
People are criticizing mediocrity. Deal with it.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
Could cut and paste comments from the Sopranos ending here.
both true, though they were still able to hit some high points after they ran out of his material. The ending of s6 and "hold the door" in particular. Just unfortunate there haven't been very many of those in s7 & s8.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
I agree completely. All I read is bitching and whining. I thought Episode 5 was one of the greatest TV shows I have ever seen. It had intrigue, drama, action, and was extremely well done.
The problem is that all these internet fans think they know a better way to end it, so whatever other alternative happens it sucks. Also the over analysis is crazy. I've seen "fans" actually going frame by frame trying to prove that GOT screwed up the KL set, and that they were actually showing something else.
enjoy the show, its great.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
And while HBO is making money hand over fist, i'm not getting my money's worth. Think about that before you lecture the people who don't like it as much as they once did.
And I don't even need perfection, or close to it. Much of the last 2 seasons have been absolutely laughable. There is an in-between from laughable to perfect, i'm sure you know that.
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have turned into such possessive, miserable whiners. It happens with virtually every show, though. A show create an amazing universe and epic for seasons, and as it gets funneled towards the end and plot lines have to be tied up, it's never perfect enough for many of the fans.
Skimming through this thread, one would think every post was written by Greg from LI.
And while HBO is making money hand over fist, i'm not getting my money's worth. Think about that before you lecture the people who don't like it as much as they once did.
And I don't even need perfection, or close to it. Much of the last 2 seasons have been absolutely laughable. There is an in-between from laughable to perfect, i'm sure you know that.
I pay $15/month for HBO..i feel with all their shows and new movies on saturday nights I get plenty for my money
Never understand why people think that things are above criticism. Whether its food you order at a restaurant, quality of the teams you root for, movies you watch, etc. - why on earth should I simply accept everything as good, or not needing of improvement?
By the way, the season is getting panned everywhere, its hardly just a few posters on BBI.
But as those paths start converging and you come to an end, there's far less room for the complete shockers (Ned's beheading, red wedding, etc).
That said, there's also plenty of things that they've rushed these last 2 seasons and other areas where they went for the stunning visuals rather than the more strategic play (Dothraki sacrifice). A fair amount of effort was wasted on Euron for some reason too. Would've been less "backlash" if Rhaegar had died in the NK battle (many thought he did) rather than sacrifice him just to show Euron loaded his fleet with some scorpions. Or they could've built up the final moments before Dany went mad better, like one final close call for Drogon (her last child) after the bells rang.
They're finishing the "horse", but it's missing a lot of the little details that made GOT special.
"absolutely laughable" for two seasons? Come on.
My comment has nothing to do with thinking that things are above criticism. For several seasons, the show has had issues with pacing, plot holes, and stupid characters doing stupid things all because they couldn't take two seconds to ask the other character what was going on. Flaws with the show are nothing new.
But people are more possessive now. It's the final season and the final episodes. I't human nature to to be more hypersensitive to what is going on in the final episodes. It's like being more sensitive to a player's flaws or poor tendencies late in the game or in a playoff game than at any other point.
I just think those frustrations and criticisms are having an outsized effect on the quality of the episodes themselves as a whole.
However, I read some things today that have convinced me this is GRRM's ending and he cleverly planted foreshadows about it in the books he has already written. The major difference of course is he is a far superior writer to the showrunners and it's not even close. The justification for certain events will make much more sense in the source material when and if it is ever released.
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
Well they would have needed their help had it not been for the unplanned intervention of Arya.
It is absolutely fair to contextualize how much harder their jobs got once they went beyond the source material. But at the same time they took more time to write this past season and reduced the number of total episodes. They were never going to please everyone but these past 2 seasons have underwhelmed on a plot/character level far more than I thought they would.
His whole character is that he's the kingslayer, but his back story is that he was forced to kill the mad king to save the innocent people of the city. So the writers then have him admit to Tyrion in the tent that he doesn't care about the people of the city and never has. uh...what? huh?
What was the point of traveling to winterfell? To take Brienne's virginity? And then to go back to Cersei after finding out that she sent Bronn to kill you? Huh?
It is absolutely fair to contextualize how much harder their jobs got once they went beyond the source material. But at the same time they took more time to write this past season and reduced the number of total episodes. They were never going to please everyone but these past 2 seasons have underwhelmed on a plot/character level far more than I thought they would.
Well said. That's how I feel as well
I imagine the former will outnumber the latter 20 to 1?
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
Yeah it was ridiculous.
I can understand Tyrion with his blindspot for Cersi buying it, but why did anyone else think the wight would sway her? Anyone familiar with her would know she'd probably be ecstatic to see the North wiped out.
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in the past two seasons, more than the previous 6 combined in my opinion.
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
Well they would have needed their help had it not been for the unplanned intervention of Arya.
No additional help would have made a shred of difference with the NK being able to raise the dead whenever he wanted. His army was infinity. The only 2 things that would have made a difference were:
1. The magic of the wall (contrived plot mentioned above)
2. The NK's desire to go after Bran (which has been glossed over in the show)
His whole character is that he's the kingslayer, but his back story is that he was forced to kill the mad king to save the innocent people of the city. So the writers then have him admit to Tyrion in the tent that he doesn't care about the people of the city and never has. uh...what? huh?
What was the point of traveling to winterfell? To take Brienne's virginity? And then to go back to Cersei after finding out that she sent Bronn to kill you? Huh?
Stop it! You're being unfair!
However, I read some things today that have convinced me this is GRRM's ending and he cleverly planted foreshadows about it in the books he has already written. The major difference of course is he is a far superior writer to the showrunners and it's not even close. The justification for certain events will make much more sense in the source material when and if it is ever released.
Nah, again my problems with episodes #3 and #4 were there were better ways to get from point A to point B in the storyline. Some would claim these things are insignificant, but I just found them annoying and distracting. They've been well-documented and mainly focus a lack of realism (again, I realize this is a fantasy show). Want to kill the second dragon? Great, but that was a stupid way to have it die. Want to have an ultra-cool Battle of Winterfell with the undead? Great, but make it more plausible. (I actually saw an excellent YouTube video this past week on how the military tactics used for the given technology of the time were simply way off).
My other issue was episode #1. It was weak.
I enjoyed #2 and #5. And I'm hoping #5 was an indication that #6 will finish this with a bang.
I think most people seem to also agree that much of this season felt rushed. I wish they had slowed it down a bit and added 2-4 more episodes.
But back to your point, I don't have a problem with the character arcs or how various characters have died. In fact, I think some of the way they've handled these have been great. Some predictable (i.e., Jorah, the Hound, Theon) and others not so much (Cersi and Jamie). I thought the way Cersi and Jamie went out was excellent. (And sets them up for a Dany meltdown if they choose).
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
"absolutely laughable" for two seasons? Come on.
My comment has nothing to do with thinking that things are above criticism. For several seasons, the show has had issues with pacing, plot holes, and stupid characters doing stupid things all because they couldn't take two seconds to ask the other character what was going on. Flaws with the show are nothing new.
But people are more possessive now. It's the final season and the final episodes. I't human nature to to be more hypersensitive to what is going on in the final episodes. It's like being more sensitive to a player's flaws or poor tendencies late in the game or in a playoff game than at any other point.
I just think those frustrations and criticisms are having an outsized effect on the quality of the episodes themselves as a whole.
I'd like to make a correction, the arrow on this show has been pointing down for me for multiple seasons now, not just now. Basically since the Dorne debacle. It got better after and then sunk again. In other words, this isn't knee-jerk for me, i've been skeptical of the shows direction for years now.
That said I've definitely given credit where I felt its due during that time frame. Some very good episodes sprinkled in with the bad ones. Bad as a whole I haven't enjoyed the series as much as I did when it peaked, for me, in seasons 3 and into 4.
I imagine the former will outnumber the latter 20 to 1?
Seems to me that Dany was all for justice and compassion in how she wanted to rule. She cared about it, but it was always secondary to getting the iron throne back from the usurpers that took it from her family. It was her throne.
Often, being compassionate helped her get more powerful. It helped her gain the trust of those at Slaver's Bay and get the unsullied to fight for her and be loyal to her.
But she was always showing a maniacal side any time she felt her chance at the iron throne was truly threatened. Most of the time, she had advisors convincing her to hold back or that showing more compassion and peace would help her out in the long run.
But the willingness for violence was always there.
Over time and particularly in this season, we saw her position weakened further and further. Not only were those she cared about dying, but some of those people who she no longer had at her side were the ones asking her to be more patient.
Her positioned weakened and her restraints were falling away. On top of that, the one thing she felt completely confident in was that she was the rightful heir to the throne. That as long as she had the dragons and the army, she would be the Queen because she had the army and was the last Targaryen.
Then Jon's truth came out and it trumps her claim for the iron throne. He's a male Targaryen and on top of that he is actually beloved by his people.
She's losing her grip on her claim to the throne, she's losing armies, dragons, advisors, and losing notion of being the ruler who would be beloved.
And like half the Targaryens due to inbreeding, she was predisposed to becoming mad.
I've had people tell me for years that it hasn't been rushed and it was always planned to be this long and nothing at all is ever wrong with GoT ever. No idea why the blind loyalty, its perfectly ok to say "hey, shit, I thought this would be better". Don't we all do that with the Giants? What's the difference? There's varying degrees of criticisms, some more aggressive than others, but its perfectly fine to not enjoy the show as much as in years past.
By the way, I fully admit closing a show is hard. Very few shows end on a high note.My favorite show of all time (The Wire) had an underwhelming 5th season. Breaking Bad's final season wasn't great, IMO. The Soprano's peaked early and fizzled out too, IMO. It happens, and its ok to not enjoy it as much.
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
The show writers clearly (IMO) had no idea what to do with the NK/white walkers story line.
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
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and I'll certainly take stock of the moments in which Dany argued for or exercised justice, freedom and mercy. I'll then surely compare those to the moments in which she was surprisingly brutal.
I imagine the former will outnumber the latter 20 to 1?
Seems to me that Dany was all for justice and compassion in how she wanted to rule. She cared about it, but it was always secondary to getting the iron throne back from the usurpers that took it from her family. It was her throne.
Often, being compassionate helped her get more powerful. It helped her gain the trust of those at Slaver's Bay and get the unsullied to fight for her and be loyal to her.
But she was always showing a maniacal side any time she felt her chance at the iron throne was truly threatened. Most of the time, she had advisors convincing her to hold back or that showing more compassion and peace would help her out in the long run.
But the willingness for violence was always there.
Over time and particularly in this season, we saw her position weakened further and further. Not only were those she cared about dying, but some of those people who she no longer had at her side were the ones asking her to be more patient.
Her positioned weakened and her restraints were falling away. On top of that, the one thing she felt completely confident in was that she was the rightful heir to the throne. That as long as she had the dragons and the army, she would be the Queen because she had the army and was the last Targaryen.
Then Jon's truth came out and it trumps her claim for the iron throne. He's a male Targaryen and on top of that he is actually beloved by his people.
She's losing her grip on her claim to the throne, she's losing armies, dragons, advisors, and losing notion of being the ruler who would be beloved.
And like half the Targaryens due to inbreeding, she was predisposed to becoming mad.
I'd add that it wasn't just the "maniacal side" it was a need for revenge. Whether it was revenge for Khal Drogo or the child slaves of Mereen or in the house of the undying or even her brother's death, she often went against her more cautious advisers when it came to revenge. And while I think they did a poor job linking them with the crossover between E4 and E5, I think a big part of her final heel turn was the murder of Missandei. Hence the shots of Grey Worm right before she took off.
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In comment 14441941 Zeke's Alibi said:
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
I don't personally see the parallel. Kings Landing had surrendered, it wasn't a punishment like the crucifixion or a threat like in Qarth or wherever that was.
This was a slaughter. Everything she had worked for was hers and she made the decision to destroy the innocent. I'm not sure you'll find much foreshadowing for that.
And I'm not against the heel turn in general. I was all for a huge twist like this. But is this even a twist at this point?
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
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In comment 14441941 Zeke's Alibi said:
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
The people she had crucified were masters after they'd crucified slaves on her path to mereen, and she certainly has a long history of 'an eye for an eye'. But that's the key difference as this was the first time she did something that wasn't just an eye for an eye, at least to my recollection.
So to me the point stands that there were a lot more comments in her past about being a defender of the innocent and vulnerable, and specifically being different than her father, then evidence that she was developing a similar madness. Ruthless violence against her enemies? Yes. But meaningless violence against innocent people, no. That was under developed, as was any paranoid break from reality.
The scorpions looked useless now because for some reason they decided to make them look all-powerful and immensely accurate in episode #4. (Again, one of my problems with #4). Hitting a moving target in the air from distance should be hard as hell (not to mention reload time).
Before the scene where she hit the scorpions from behind on the wall, I said to my wife, "She should hit them from behind the wall!" (I felt good about that prediction!) (grin)
I don't personally see the parallel. Kings Landing had surrendered, it wasn't a punishment like the crucifixion or a threat like in Qarth or wherever that was.
This was a slaughter. Everything she had worked for was hers and she made the decision to destroy the innocent. I'm not sure you'll find much foreshadowing for that.
And I'm not against the heel turn in general. I was all for a huge twist like this. But is this even a twist at this point?
That's just the writers screwing up some of the little details (again). They could've done something like having Cersei hide some scorpions among the civilians (well within Cersei's character to sacrifice civilians) and then having one of those scorpions shoot at and land a glancing blow on Drogon after the bells have chimed. Then Dany, worried about losing her last child, goes mad...
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all of a sudden becoming useless was dumb, but when the rest of the show actually makes sense from a plot and storytelling standpoint I can actually look past things like that. The problem with some of these other episodes is that they made no sense and then people would pile on with all the inconsistencies.
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
Oh no I agree with that totally. As a Navy guy watching Euron nail 3 shots on a boat with a fucking crossbow was immediately apparent to me how stupid that was. If they wanted to go that route why didn't they just have him ambush them at Dragonstone. Set up some scorpions behind the fortress walls, boom she doesn't see it coming and now you dropped the dragon in a way that actually makes sense. Creating them into some superweapon was stupid, but once you make it canon you should stay consistent.
I was never a fan of Dany(and definitely did not want to see her on the throne) to begin with, but I just did not see the carefully plotted descent into that type of depravity. I could almost even see it if she was in danger of losing the battle to Cersei since her identity was based on reclaiming what was rightfully hers. But, she was about to achieve all her dreams and even though Jon sort of betrayed her in terms of telling the secret to Sansa, he had always remained loyal to her in that she would be the sole ruler of the seven kingdoms. How many times did he have to tell her "You are my queen." As someone said above me, she was ruthless in some of the events used to say that this was foreshadowed, but it never appeared to be in the spectrum of likely possibilities that she was a mass-murderer if everything was going her way. I dunno, her transformation to what she became last night seemed forced and over the top.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
which is the approach Aerys took when he was going mad.
He had the wild fire all ready to go and stored and as the Baratheon and Lannister armies approach Kings Landing he ordered the city burned and he ordered Jaime to bring him Tywin's head.
In that case Jaime saved the lives of the innocents (and his father) by killing Aerys and being branded a King Slayer (which was technically true, but unfair) by Ned Stark.
In this case Tyrion could not convince Dany to spare the lives of innocents, but in juxtaposed situations the Targaryen instinct was to scorch the earth only with Aerys it was stopped before the bulk of the damage could be done.
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
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In comment 14441976 Zeke's Alibi said:
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all of a sudden becoming useless was dumb, but when the rest of the show actually makes sense from a plot and storytelling standpoint I can actually look past things like that. The problem with some of these other episodes is that they made no sense and then people would pile on with all the inconsistencies.
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
Oh no I agree with that totally. As a Navy guy watching Euron nail 3 shots on a boat with a fucking crossbow was immediately apparent to me how stupid that was. If they wanted to go that route why didn't they just have him ambush them at Dragonstone. Set up some scorpions behind the fortress walls, boom she doesn't see it coming and now you dropped the dragon in a way that actually makes sense. Creating them into some superweapon was stupid, but once you make it canon you should stay consistent.
It's also extreme nitpicking. If they fired off dozens of shots and one was lucky enough to land a lethal shot through the dragon's neck while the other 99% missed, no one (or very few) would bat an eye even the result is the same (i.e. dead dragon). But they went for the dramatic effect and had 3-4 arrows hitting him in succession, which just seemed outrageous for the technology.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
I don't think it was just she wanted the throne, she felt it was owed to her and all others on the throne or with a claim to the throne were userpers. she felt she had a right to the throne and it created a rage inside her that would not be quelled.
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
\I'd like to make a correction, the arrow on this show has been pointing down for me for multiple seasons now, not just now. Basically since the Dorne debacle. It got better after and then sunk again. In other words, this isn't knee-jerk for me, i've been skeptical of the shows direction for years now.
That said I've definitely given credit where I felt its due during that time frame. Some very good episodes sprinkled in with the bad ones. Bad as a whole I haven't enjoyed the series as much as I did when it peaked, for me, in seasons 3 and into 4.
I generally agree with this. There have been remarkable episodes and moments over the last few years, but I don't think it's as good as it used to be.
Many of the flaws this season are similar to the flaws it has had for a long time. It just seems to me that much of the reaction this season completely disregards that those same flaws have existed with the show.
Was it just an unrealistic assumption that somehow this season would be different? Do some fans feel cheated that the season is only six episodes long, despite the running times being longer, because of how long they had to wait for this season?
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the wolves would play a bigger role in the story?
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
I actually mean in the books
Hence the tense stare down between Grey Worm/Jon and the Lannister army. Once the Lannister army dropped their weapons, Dany and Drogon should've retreated back behind their lines while Grey Worm/Jon led the "cleanup" (take prisoners, track down Cersie, etc).
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
Agreed, but by over the top what I meant was how quickly it was sprung upon us. She went from one episode drinking and trying to be nice with Sansa to the next a disheveled person with her hair undone and her mind mad. If she took a decent toward that darkness I wished it was more carefully plotted than what we saw here. Last episode, she goes from feeing a bit of an outcast at a party to the next episode lighting the whole town on fire and killing almost every innocent civilian.
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In comment 14442006 ron mexico said:
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the wolves would play a bigger role in the story?
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
I actually mean in the books
I think they'll have a larger role in the books (if they're ever written). The early parts of the show where it tracks the books had larger roles for the Wolves (Ghost at the wall, Bran warging into Summer).
she killed the innocents because they did not love her. She decided to would take the throne and rule by fear.
She had a choice, and you could see her sitting on the dragon contemplating which way the coin would end up like Vaerys said
it landed on tails for this one.
I have seen nothing in this show that would suggest that she would murder a million people that just surrendered like that though. They overdid it, IMO.
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I understand your view, but she had decided to kill people - with varying degrees of "guilt" - in horrific ways for years. Even go back to her expression when she saw her piece-of-shit brother die. After she was given the Dothraki, she went completely badass and had their masters all executed. She had that one guy locked alive in a vault.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
I don't think it was just she wanted the throne, she felt it was owed to her and all others on the throne or with a claim to the throne were userpers. she felt she had a right to the throne and it created a rage inside her that would not be quelled.
She's been marginalized/ignored/shunned all season long - and losing Missandei was the last straw for her.
For Dany, it's either burn everyone or pout with another cup of Starbucks.
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I think she killed them because the Lannister army was mixed in with them and she was willing to tolerate those casualties in order to wipe out the entire Lannister army. I think she'll make that explanation herself to Jon Snow in Ep. 6.
she killed the innocents because they did not love her. She decided to would take the throne and rule by fear.
She had a choice, and you could see her sitting on the dragon contemplating which way the coin would end up like Vaerys said
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They say every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.
it landed on tails for this one.
The whole thing certainly felt like the outcome of a coin flip... just one made by the writers.
It seems to me that they were able to hit and kill the dragon when Dany and her dragon didn't see the scorpion arrows and weren't trying to avoid them. But once they became aware of it and tried to avoid them, they weren't hit last week and weren't hit this week.
Is that unrealistic? Who knows? It's a dragon, and it's a fictional adventure story.
The way a hero survives or escapes danger in every action story ever told defies rational rules. Just last night, Arya survived a stampede, concussion, falling buildings, dragon fire, and early onset lung cancer from the debris. Should we dissect how that was possible?
Should we complain that the Hound managed to keep his eyes after the undead Mountain used his thumbs to press into them as hard as he could? How did the Mountain not kill him after the first few blows given his supernatural strength? How do the main characters keep surviving the close combat in the battles?
What is it about the scorpions and the dragons that had people so up in arms with rules of physical harm?
Except for a few northern lords, nobody's ever heard of Jon Snow.
The shot before she starts torching civilians clearly shows the Lannister soldiers mixed in among them. The shots from Arya's point of view later on make that a harder position to defend though, as there are no soldiers to be seen and Dany is still on a rampage.
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I actually mean in the books
I think they'll have a larger role in the books (if they're ever written). The early parts of the show where it tracks the books had larger roles for the Wolves (Ghost at the wall, Bran warging into Summer).
In the books Jon and Arya wargs into their wolves - at least at night, anyway.
Nah, her meltdown was even worse than many realize. She started uncontrollable fires in a city filled with her own soldiers. They eventually recognized that and withdrew, but she could have destroyed much of her own army.
She knew what she was doing. Her blood was up. Much of episode #5 was about bloodlust. Cersi talked about it when they were hiding during Stanis' assault. She talked about bloodlust then and what would happen to the civilians. Bloodlust is real and we still see it in recent wars.
"For Dany, it's either burn everyone or pout with another cup of Starbucks."
By the way, I fully admit closing a show is hard. Very few shows end on a high note.My favorite show of all time (The Wire) had an underwhelming 5th season. Breaking Bad's final season wasn't great, IMO. The Soprano's peaked early and fizzled out too, IMO. It happens, and its ok to not enjoy it as much.
Reason #1003 why Friday Night Lights is my favorite overall TV series: they landed the ending with absolute grace.
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
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Jon could never tell her enough times that she was his queen because so long as they lived in this world where the world would consider him the rightful heir to the throne via Targaryen bloodlines, she would never feel safe that she would end up on the iron throne.
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
Agreed, but by over the top what I meant was how quickly it was sprung upon us. She went from one episode drinking and trying to be nice with Sansa to the next a disheveled person with her hair undone and her mind mad. If she took a decent toward that darkness I wished it was more carefully plotted than what we saw here. Last episode, she goes from feeing a bit of an outcast at a party to the next episode lighting the whole town on fire and killing almost every innocent civilian.
In that time, one of her "children" was murdered right next to her, Missandei was slaughtered right in front of her and she watched as the true heir to the Throne via Targaryen bloodlines, Jon, was hailed and beloved by all of the people in the hall. And no matter how many times he told her that she was his queen, she asked him to keep it a secret, but Jon still told the Starks, who told Tyrion and Varys and so now the information was out there.
The idea that she was losing those closest to her when she "played nice" and the feeling that she no longer had a grip on the iron throne (because Jon was going to take it from her even if he didn't intend to) pushed her over the edge, and caused her to go "mad."
"For Dany, it's either burn everyone or pout with another cup of Starbucks."
Thank you sir.
I thought the Sopranos ending was pretty conclusive Tony died no? They talked about getting shot before and what dying was like and how its all black. I wish the people in charge of the show weren't so fucking coy about it for years though.
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
I loved the way they went out. But I knew it would draw a lot of criticism. They came into the world together and went out of it together. The kingdom literally fell down upon their heads. No one really knows if they are dead or alive. It wasn't predictable (everyone thought Cersi would be taken out by one of the other characters directly... I found this more believable).
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through the whole thread, but am I the only person who really thought they blew it with Jamie/Cersi?
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
I loved the way they went out. But I knew it would draw a lot of criticism. They came into the world together and went out of it together. The kingdom literally fell down upon their heads. No one really knows if they are dead or alive. It wasn't predictable (everyone thought Cersi would be taken out by one of the other characters directly... I found this more believable).
I like how they went out as well. People want Cersei to die a more satisfying death because she is an evil bitch. Fuck that, This is game of thrones! Kinda wish she just took some poison with Jaime and died peacefully.
Except for a few northern lords, nobody's ever heard of Jon Snow.
Yea that's one thing that bothered me into buying into her isolation. Turns out she still has plenty of dothraki and unsullied. She even has the worst character on the show faithfully by her side (greyworm). Jon Snow has part of what's left of the decimated north.
The coin flip was a line from the book, but I think any Targ is capable of turning on the crazy. Viserys was originally kind, but years of begging and being mocked made him insane. Aerys was good ruler at first even without Tywin, but he became jealous and paranoid and he just kept snowballing. All Dany needed was a catalyst
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
Fine, but they sure as hell didn't sell the transition from that to "Anything that gets out of her way will still be done away with."
I hope they expose other characters to the same degree of abrupt character change. They should make Bron into a hard drinking partier next episode, for example. Why not? He used to climb things for the thrill of it, remember?
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through the whole thread, but am I the only person who really thought they blew it with Jamie/Cersi?
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
I loved the way they went out. But I knew it would draw a lot of criticism. They came into the world together and went out of it together. The kingdom literally fell down upon their heads. No one really knows if they are dead or alive. It wasn't predictable (everyone thought Cersi would be taken out by one of the other characters directly... I found this more believable).
My issue is less with Cersi and more with Jamie.
They spent 7.5 seasons of a character arc which sees him go from pompous evil POS, he then finally tuns, fights for the living, sleeps with Brienne, and then just undoes his entire character arc in 90 minutes. Such bad writing.
If there's actually a let's-sit-down-and-talk-about-this-with-my-court opportunity for her to do so in the next episode, that would be even more absurd than the last episode's turn.
And the 3rd betrayal seemed tame, just didn't buy her snapping into madness. This needed several episodes, or even a full seasons to build towards. Which is why the white walkers should have been dealt with last season - they could have focused a more believable character transition in season 8.
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In comment 14442069 Jon in NYC said:
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through the whole thread, but am I the only person who really thought they blew it with Jamie/Cersi?
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
I loved the way they went out. But I knew it would draw a lot of criticism. They came into the world together and went out of it together. The kingdom literally fell down upon their heads. No one really knows if they are dead or alive. It wasn't predictable (everyone thought Cersi would be taken out by one of the other characters directly... I found this more believable).
My issue is less with Cersi and more with Jamie.
They spent 7.5 seasons of a character arc which sees him go from pompous evil POS, he then finally tuns, fights for the living, sleeps with Brienne, and then just undoes his entire character arc in 90 minutes. Such bad writing.
Meh, I don't see Jaime's resolution as invalidating his episodes of the past few seasons. His attachment to Cersei seems in-addition-to rather than replacing the rest of his character development. Jaime seems to have no interest in the politics of King's Landing or anywhere else, but he's not going to let the love of his life die on her own when it's her time to die.
Link - ( New Window )
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I don't personally see the parallel. Kings Landing had surrendered, it wasn't a punishment like the crucifixion or a threat like in Qarth or wherever that was.
This was a slaughter. Everything she had worked for was hers and she made the decision to destroy the innocent. I'm not sure you'll find much foreshadowing for that.
And I'm not against the heel turn in general. I was all for a huge twist like this. But is this even a twist at this point?
That's just the writers screwing up some of the little details (again). They could've done something like having Cersei hide some scorpions among the civilians (well within Cersei's character to sacrifice civilians) and then having one of those scorpions shoot at and land a glancing blow on Drogon after the bells have chimed. Then Dany, worried about losing her last child, goes mad...
I mentioned a similar situation earlier in the thread. And they could have easily set it up in an earlier scene when Tyrion asks her to call off the attack if the bells started ringing. She could have agreed, but if they keep fighting after the bells ring she will burn them to the ground.
That would have setup a more justifiable turn IMO
My wife thought he was going back to King's Landing to kill her. I never thought that. I felt he was going back to die with her.
Just wait til next week starts off by having Dany kill Roberts Bastard (the one she just named Lord) since he is a threat.
When Ned Stark is talking about Jon Arryn's death in season one he says to the Grand Maester that poison is a womans weapon. Grand Maester Pycelle responded "Yes, Women, cravens, and Eunuchs. Did you know Lord Varys is a eunuch?"
Just wait til next week starts off by having Dany kill Roberts Bastard (the one she just named Lord) since he is a threat.
I had a feeling that's where Arya was headed. they made such a point of showing her with the commoners, the mothers and children and the sadness/devasation, I thought once she jumped on that horse she'd be headed to find Gendry.
When Ned Stark is talking about Jon Arryn's death in season one he says to the Grand Maester that poison is a womans weapon. Grand Maester Pycelle responded "Yes, Women, cravens, and Eunuchs. Did you know Lord Varys is a eunuch?"
Yes, it was clear, no risk no reward.
That article says the following:
That is not a "great" explanation.
I guess it makes sense from HBO’s point of view. Odds are there are a lot of people who don’t stick through to the end if they already got the conclusion from the books. The only reason I watch is because I couldn’t wait any longer for Martin to finish, and wanted to see the ending for myself rather than have it spoiled on the internet or over hearing someone discuss it.
Books already finished? - ( New Window )
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The Targaryans will be sitting on the iron throne. The entire purpose was for them to regain the crown and that's how it will end. The Starks never come out on top. The way Martin has show to not give a damn about how the fans feel so far, tells me he will have no problem making a "bad" character the King/Queen.
Just wait til next week starts off by having Dany kill Roberts Bastard (the one she just named Lord) since he is a threat.
I had a feeling that's where Arya was headed. they made such a point of showing her with the commoners, the mothers and children and the sadness/devasation, I thought once she jumped on that horse she'd be headed to find Gendry.
Or to Sansa. She probably knows that Sansa will be one of Dany's next targets for trying to undermine her.
When Ned Stark is talking about Jon Arryn's death in season one he says to the Grand Maester that poison is a womans weapon. Grand Maester Pycelle responded "Yes, Women, cravens, and Eunuchs. Did you know Lord Varys is a eunuch?"
Wait? What? How do you know that?
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who didn't realize that Varys was trying to poison Dany? That's why he asked his little spy if she ate yet.
When Ned Stark is talking about Jon Arryn's death in season one he says to the Grand Maester that poison is a womans weapon. Grand Maester Pycelle responded "Yes, Women, cravens, and Eunuchs. Did you know Lord Varys is a eunuch?"
Wait? What? How do you know that?
I thought it was clear based on their conversation, the girl said Dany's "people" were watching her closely and Varys' said "the greater the risk the greater the reward" Varys was definitely trying to poison her.
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In comment 14442161 bradshaw44 said:
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The Targaryans will be sitting on the iron throne. The entire purpose was for them to regain the crown and that's how it will end. The Starks never come out on top. The way Martin has show to not give a damn about how the fans feel so far, tells me he will have no problem making a "bad" character the King/Queen.
Just wait til next week starts off by having Dany kill Roberts Bastard (the one she just named Lord) since he is a threat.
I had a feeling that's where Arya was headed. they made such a point of showing her with the commoners, the mothers and children and the sadness/devasation, I thought once she jumped on that horse she'd be headed to find Gendry.
Or to Sansa. She probably knows that Sansa will be one of Dany's next targets for trying to undermine her.
Hell, if they're going to make this whole Dany-likes-to-roast-everyone thing permanent and not a PMS symptom, she may be heading back to Winterfell to help prepare its defenses against a full on attack.
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In comment 14442170 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 14442161 bradshaw44 said:
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The Targaryans will be sitting on the iron throne. The entire purpose was for them to regain the crown and that's how it will end. The Starks never come out on top. The way Martin has show to not give a damn about how the fans feel so far, tells me he will have no problem making a "bad" character the King/Queen.
Just wait til next week starts off by having Dany kill Roberts Bastard (the one she just named Lord) since he is a threat.
I had a feeling that's where Arya was headed. they made such a point of showing her with the commoners, the mothers and children and the sadness/devasation, I thought once she jumped on that horse she'd be headed to find Gendry.
Or to Sansa. She probably knows that Sansa will be one of Dany's next targets for trying to undermine her.
Hell, if they're going to make this whole Dany-likes-to-roast-everyone thing permanent and not a PMS symptom, she may be heading back to Winterfell to help prepare its defenses against a full on attack.
Just my guess, Dany assumes what's left of the iron throne or goes back to the Iron Islands.
I don't think she's going on attack to hunt down anyone.
I think she will now become the hunted.
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the show before this seasons. This article does a great job of explaining what I said before. They have been setting this up for years. Shes a narcissist with a genetic predisposition for insanity. Link - ( New Window )
That article says the following:
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The burning of King's Landing, then, is no different than the burning of Mirri in the first season.
That is not a "great" explanation.
The article goes into it more than that one comparison. Dany takes great pleasure in killing and torturing her enemies in ridiculous, torturous ways. Compare that to Jon Snow who abhors having to kills his captive enemies.
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who didn't realize that Varys was trying to poison Dany? That's why he asked his little spy if she ate yet.
When Ned Stark is talking about Jon Arryn's death in season one he says to the Grand Maester that poison is a womans weapon. Grand Maester Pycelle responded "Yes, Women, cravens, and Eunuchs. Did you know Lord Varys is a eunuch?"
Wait? What? How do you know that?
I don't know why it didn't hit me last night because it's so obvious. Obviously he doesn't give a shit if she's eating or not as he is planning on killing her.
Better laid out than how i could - ( New Window )
Yeah, and for Exhibit A it reminds us that she killed the witch who put her husband in a coma and killed her unborn baby.
Not sure that ought to convince the jury that she was well on her way to being a sadistic war criminal.
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that deep down inside she has shown signs of being a blood thirsty lunatic.
Yeah, and for Exhibit A it reminds us that she killed the witch who put her husband in a coma and killed her unborn baby.
Not sure that ought to convince the jury that she was well on her way to being a sadistic war criminal.
The point is to show where it all begins. She takes on a slave and acts like the slave should be forever grateful for it. She reminds her that she didn't save her from shit, she was raped and her village was burned down to the ground.
After re-watching, for sure Varys was trying to poison her. Why else would have have that conversation with a girl who works in the kitchen? Why else would he tell her "the greater the risk the greater the reward?"
Dany lost her family as a baby, lost her brother, lost her husband and love of her life, lost her unborn baby, lost two of her Dragons who she felt were her children, lost her closest friends in Mormont and Sandy. She then loses her love in Jon Snow who she feels betrays her. She can't rule the 7 kingdoms anymore through love like she got via freeing slaves. She says it... I will have to rule through fear. Meaning I will destroy everything and everyone. Everyone else will bow down out of fear of her and not even think twice about putting Jon on the throne.
Saying all that it is very clear who will kill her and I don't think it will be Jon. The Kingslayer and the Queenslayer bothers.
Dany lost her family as a baby, lost her brother, lost her husband and love of her life, lost her unborn baby, lost two of her Dragons who she felt were her children, lost her closest friends in Mormont and Sandy. She then loses her love in Jon Snow who she feels betrays her. She can't rule the 7 kingdoms anymore through love like she got via freeing slaves. She says it... I will have to rule through fear. Meaning I will destroy everything and everyone. Everyone else will bow down out of fear of her and not even think twice about putting Jon on the throne.
Saying all that it is very clear who will kill her and I don't think it will be Jon. The Kingslayer and the Queenslayer bothers.
Amtoft nails it with Dany's losses and perspective. You don't even have to believe she is truly "mad" to understand her rationale.
Tyrion... Man how did he go from one of the smartest and funniest guys to one of the stupidest and the one always going I am so sorry I messed up again and again and again and again. They honestly ruined one of the best characters on TV no matter how this ends, he was one of the biggest idiots on the show. When was the last time he was right about anything or didn't get played by everyone... So stupid.
I still lean toward Jon having to kill her though. Grey Worm isn't just gonna sit back and watch that happen either - he'll have to be killed as well. Maybe Jon takes out Grey Worm and Arya kills Dany?
In reality most of the bolts missed when shot at the dragons and it was unexpected and not planned for. When the time came to attack Kings Landing the move to come down through the sun was brilliant and sweeping from side to side making it hard to turn and fire was way more realistic than the previous magical rapid firing arrows shooting scene so I am shocked so many people are upset about it. I get it they set the stage that these were fast firing and super accurate. However in reality what happened in this battle was way more realistic.
Tyrion... Man how did he go from one of the smartest and funniest guys to one of the stupidest and the one always going I am so sorry I messed up again and again and again and again. They honestly ruined one of the best characters on TV no matter how this ends, he was one of the biggest idiots on the show. When was the last time he was right about anything or didn't get played by everyone... So stupid.
That prophecy was intentionally left out of the show. In hindsight, it should've been obvious that she wouldn't die that way otherwise why remove it?
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In comment 14441422 BrettNYG10 said:
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Why did Tyrion rat out Varys? Why didn't Dany kill Tyrion as well?
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
When he saw Varys approach Jon he was forced to rat him out. Part of Tyrion knows that Varys is right but he was tried to convince himself that Dany is good deep inside. He still tried to save Cersei at the very end even after learning that she hired Bronn to kill him. I don't like how the turned Tyrion into a constant fuckup.
She may still kill Tyrion, especially after he let Jaime go. Again as I stated above, this could be where Bronn comes back in to save Tyrion's skin again. Then the Bronn getting Highgarden scene would make sense. With Tyrion and Jaime gone he'd get nothing
I think Jon kills her and Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne due to Jon not wanting to rule
Biggest disappoint about the whole show. More than the super quick ending with the white walkers and the NK aka the "great" one night war with no explanation. I mean come on I would have rather he had been killed off than have him be who they made him be. Even him turning on Varys after Varys saved his life more than once including giving him purpose. He story line was just butchered badly.
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How Cersie acted. Whole city is bring burned and destroyed and she is like ho hum nothing to worry about. I am not even going to say anything really just stand here and not understand what is happening. How she died I was cool with except the prophesy said she would be strangled by the brother? So pretty much everything else in the prophesy is true but that part? Come on man.
Tyrion... Man how did he go from one of the smartest and funniest guys to one of the stupidest and the one always going I am so sorry I messed up again and again and again and again. They honestly ruined one of the best characters on TV no matter how this ends, he was one of the biggest idiots on the show. When was the last time he was right about anything or didn't get played by everyone... So stupid.
That prophecy was intentionally left out of the show. In hindsight, it should've been obvious that she wouldn't die that way otherwise why remove it?
Was it really? Hahaha I guess I always assumed it was in the show. Well then that saves it a little.
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In comment 14442259 Amtoft said:
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How Cersie acted. Whole city is bring burned and destroyed and she is like ho hum nothing to worry about. I am not even going to say anything really just stand here and not understand what is happening. How she died I was cool with except the prophesy said she would be strangled by the brother? So pretty much everything else in the prophesy is true but that part? Come on man.
Tyrion... Man how did he go from one of the smartest and funniest guys to one of the stupidest and the one always going I am so sorry I messed up again and again and again and again. They honestly ruined one of the best characters on TV no matter how this ends, he was one of the biggest idiots on the show. When was the last time he was right about anything or didn't get played by everyone... So stupid.
That prophecy was intentionally left out of the show. In hindsight, it should've been obvious that she wouldn't die that way otherwise why remove it?
Was it really? Hahaha I guess I always assumed it was in the show. Well then that saves it a little.
Me too actually. I only realized it today when a writer mentioned it and linked the clip.
That's also why he said "With great risk comes great reward"
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
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Dany has gone mad IMO, maybe loss contributed to it a little, but she contributed to the loss.
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
Maybe nudged it a little, but it was destiny.
Again, Varys cited it last night and Baristan Selmy also said it directly to Dany (in the books at least I don't remember it in the show) explaining Viserys (though foreshadowing Daenerys):
King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.
so you can blame loss, or losing, or whatever you want, but it was destiny.
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
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In comment 14442288 pjcas18 said:
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Dany has gone mad IMO, maybe loss contributed to it a little, but she contributed to the loss.
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
Maybe nudged it a little, but it was destiny.
Again, Varys cited it last night and Baristan Selmy also said it directly to Dany (in the books at least I don't remember it in the show) explaining Viserys (though foreshadowing Daenerys):
King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.
so you can blame loss, or losing, or whatever you want, but it was destiny.
I mean I guess we will never know, but she seemed pretty happy with Drogo and wasn't thinking about going to the seven kingdoms until they tried to killed her and her baby. I wouldn't be shocked if she try and redeem her a little bit next episode, but because it was to much it will be to late.
So is everyone mad?
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
To add to that Sandy said it... If I wanted to leave to go home she would put me on a ship fully loaded and wish me well. I mean you lose everything and get no sleep and see how pleasant you are to talk to.
Even Mad King Aerys didn't start out mad.
I'm not going to claim I predicted the extent of the carnage, but the madness I thought was definitely coming, I thought it would be more paranoia and drive a wedge between her and Jon or her and sansa or her and Gendry or something like that.
the carnage surprised me, but looking back it seems like it shouldn't have.
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
So many people suffered many more losses than Dany.
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I just don't think someone has to be "mad" (i.e. crazy) to be calculating. She clearly came to the rationale conclusion that she could not rule by making people love her (whether that was right or wrong, there is some logic in it).
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
So many people suffered many more losses than Dany.
Ummm who lost they mother, father, both brothers, actually every Targaryen family member with exception of the person she ended up falling in love with and who won't be with her because he things incest is gross. She lost the love of her life and an unborn baby, her blood rider before they got to Quarth, 2 dragons who were her children, and all but one of her best of best friends and closest people to her. Really who does she even have in the world left except Greyworm?
Who lost more than that?
So is everyone mad?
This is getting into deeper issues, but the real world is a very dangerous and dark place. We live in an era and a civilization where this is not fully understood. It's easy to be armchair QBs, sitting on our comfy couches with popcorn and our favorite beverage, and condemn "evil" without fully understanding human nature and history.
Just a couple of decades ago, we were still witnessing genocide in the Balkans in the heart of "civilized" Europe. Human slavery (sex trafficking) is rampant in the world right now. Concentration camps actually still exist in this world.
One of the things I like about Game of Thrones is there is no "black and white"...everything has shades of gray... and that's how life is. So when I read Twitter warrior criticisms like "Dany's true character would never do that", I think people are too isolated from reality and real human history.
Killing tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of civilians to kill the remaining 1-2 thousand Lannister troops, of a surrending army, is not calculating. It's batshit insane at best.
And those other people didn't have a dragon and an army behind them to settle the score.
Human history is filled with mass murder by those who are not crazy.
And those other people didn't have a dragon and an army behind them to settle the score.
Destroying Kings Landing had nothing to do with settling the score IMO.
It had to do with her madness and desire to rule by fear because she watched how much the people admired Jon Snow and realized the people of Westeros would never love her.
Her father had the exact same tendency, once his throne was in jeopardy he ordered Kings Landing destroyed.
Human history is filled with mass murder by those who are not crazy.
This exactly... She did it so she could rule without doubt through FEAR.
There is also the element of establishing rule based on fear.
But I don't think they are going to make her "crazy"... I may be wrong.
One of the biggest disservices we can do to history is labeling evil acts or actors as "mad" or "crazy." Hitler and Stalin were not crazy. And calling them such marginalizes them as REAL historical figures and turns them more into caricatures. They actually become LESS scary when we do that. And it's a disservice to history.
I think Dany is a bit unhinged right now. And I may be dead wrong and they have full crazy in her eyes in the final episode. But I wouldn't take it in that direction. I would end it as her being more of a tragic figure.
Link - ( New Window )
This is what I was trying to say. And if you really look at all of the characters in Game of Thrones, they all have warts.
Dany at this point is completely disassociated from Westeros - she alludes to this during her conversation with Jon. She views the throne as belonging to her, but these are not her* people.
The people will certainly fear her now, but that will be more of a byproduct of her mass murder than it being her ultimate goal.
My guess for next week is she tries to have a trial and kill Tyrion for treason. I bet this is where the Bronn story line comes back in, because he needs to save him to keep Highgarden. He may kill Dany for example and then Jon takes the throne. Or perhaps Jon continues to refuse it and Sansa/Bran/Gendry take it. I don't think Dany comes out of next week the victor. They all know what she is now.
At least TWICE already, Dany had to be talked out of attacking King's Landing with her dragons. The first time when she landed in Westeros and the second time after Highgarden fell. The collateral damage from THREE dragons attacking probably would have been even more devastating.
As for killing "innocents", look at strategic bombing by all sides in World War II. Dresden is a good example because the war was all but over and Dresden wasn't a military target.
Dany at this point is completely disassociated from Westeros - she alludes to this during her conversation with Jon. She views the throne as belonging to her, but these are not her* people.
The people will certainly fear her now, but that will be more of a byproduct of her mass murder than it being her ultimate goal.
You could be right, but I hope they don't make her batshit crazy in the last episode.
I think this season shows definitively that you can't set up a sprawling multi-character web and quickly tie it all together because the investors don't want to pay for two more seasons.
Regarding this last episode - I liked the mountain defying Cersei and crushing his master's skull. That was about it.
Jamie isn't getting caught by anyone in a land he knows better than them.
If Dani is out of her mind enough to decide a suicide run with her dragon at the iron fleet in the sunlight was the best play, then everything else she did makes perfect sense. To me, its as laughable as her and her dragons getting surprised by some ships when they would have seen them miles out of range.
Cersi apparently didn't think arrows or archers were worth investing in. However, the sum total of her purchased army and the lannister army looked like no more than a small garrison for the city. It didn't look to me that they would even have needed the dragon.
I'm having trouble recalling the differences in show vs. the books in this area and Dany going mad may have been GRRM's end game as well, but if it is I'd hope some of the circumstances leading to it are a lot less contrived and will feel more earned vs. a pure heel turn - specifically Tyrion's multiple season arc of strategic ineptitude and Missendei's swift abduction/execution.
I guess it makes sense from HBO’s point of view. Odds are there are a lot of people who don’t stick through to the end if they already got the conclusion from the books. The only reason I watch is because I couldn’t wait any longer for Martin to finish, and wanted to see the ending for myself rather than have it spoiled on the internet or over hearing someone discuss it. Books already finished? - ( New Window )
I've sort of suspected this for a while and I'm hoping it's accurate. Once it became the TV sensation it did there was no point putting more spoilers out there mid-stream.
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If you believe the actor that played Bariston Selmy, Martin has already written books 6 and 7 but reached an agreement with HBO not to publish until after the conclusion of the show. I’ve seen this rumored before but this is the first I’ve seen it stated from anyone connected to the show.
I guess it makes sense from HBO’s point of view. Odds are there are a lot of people who don’t stick through to the end if they already got the conclusion from the books. The only reason I watch is because I couldn’t wait any longer for Martin to finish, and wanted to see the ending for myself rather than have it spoiled on the internet or over hearing someone discuss it. Books already finished? - ( New Window )
I've sort of suspected this for a while and I'm hoping it's accurate. Once it became the TV sensation it did there was no point putting more spoilers out there mid-stream.
The only reason why I think this might be wrong is the fact that the show's writing got worse when the show went past the already published story line.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
Have some common sense folks!
Have some common sense folks!
It's probably wishful thinking, certainly we've all been in the "believe it when we see it" camp for a long time. It wouldn't shock me if they come out with a release date for 6 shortly after the season.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
What about the ridiculous plot to go north of the wall to get a wight to convince Cersei to stand down and then his ridiculous opinion to trust her? Hasn't he "always known what she is"?
Pretty much everything outside of the Varys execution scene was awful IMO.
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keeps piling on Tyrion - he's been established as being an intelligent character, but that doesn't necessarily translate to him being a brilliant military strategist.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
What about the ridiculous plot to go north of the wall to get a wight to convince Cersei to stand down and then his ridiculous opinion to trust her? Hasn't he "always known what she is"?
How about take 16 minutes with three dragons and take out all the scorpions before negotiating? I'd be pissed off if I was Dani as well. She got duped by a bunch of morons with no idea what they were doing. I mean, her nephew won't even bone her.
As for killing "innocents", look at strategic bombing by all sides in World War II. Dresden is a good example because the war was all but over and Dresden wasn't a military target.
As far as I know, no cities were bombed in WW2 that belonged to a nation that had surrendered.
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In comment 14441450 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14441422 BrettNYG10 said:
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Why did Tyrion rat out Varys? Why didn't Dany kill Tyrion as well?
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
When he saw Varys approach Jon he was forced to rat him out. Part of Tyrion knows that Varys is right but he was tried to convince himself that Dany is good deep inside. He still tried to save Cersei at the very end even after learning that she hired Bronn to kill him. I don't like how the turned Tyrion into a constant fuckup.
She may still kill Tyrion, especially after he let Jaime go. Again as I stated above, this could be where Bronn comes back in to save Tyrion's skin again. Then the Bronn getting Highgarden scene would make sense. With Tyrion and Jaime gone he'd get nothing
I think Jon kills her and Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne due to Jon not wanting to rule
Bran becomes the King.
My guess for next week is she tries to have a trial and kill Tyrion for treason. I bet this is where the Bronn story line comes back in, because he needs to save him to keep Highgarden. He may kill Dany for example and then Jon takes the throne. Or perhaps Jon continues to refuse it and Sansa/Bran/Gendry take it. I don't think Dany comes out of next week the victor. They all know what she is now.
Jon is going to kill Dany, then head North.
I think this difference is the dragon who was shot didn't have a rider, Dany was on the one this week. Also that was a surprise attack whereas this week she knew they were waiting for her, so she adjusted her attack accordingly. When she knew the shots were coming she could dodge them, just like in Season 7
My verdict still stands:
Episodes #2 and #5 were good (and episode #5 had some tremendous scenes such as the conversation between Dany and Tyrion).
Episodes #1, #3, and #4 were left wanting.
If they finish this up with a very strong #6, I will feel they redeemed themselves.
My point was simply this: there are plenty of examples throughout history of civilians simply being slaughtered to generate fear.
Since 9/11 I've had several recurring apocalyptic nightmares, one of which is buildings falling on me in Manhattan. I don't think it's a coincidence I had those nightmares again last night. It may not have been a conscious decision to evoke it, but it's part of our national subconscience at this point (if that makes any sense; I don't really no the right psych terms). I think the Arya fleeing scenes were incredibly well done.
2. Jaime's arc is fine! Why does everything have to be black and white? He seems to be a big villain in the first seasons/books but then we come to learn that his reputation is not earned. He gradually tries to become a better person, but the one thing in his life he can't outgrow is his love for Cersei. This makes sense to me.
3. In the last 10-12 years, Twitter and social media made everyone an armchair political pundit. Combining social media with Thrones has made everyone a qualified armchair tv/film critic. I look forward to the next skill that social media teaches everybody [/sarcasm]. Btw I'm not really talking about this thread, which has been mostly reasonable on both sides, but everything I'm seeing elsewhere.
That's my one big gripe about this episode. That whole contrived fight scene between Jaime and Euron was completely unnecessary and stupid. Just have Euron die when Dany attacks with Drogon. Jaimie still ends up in the same place with his sister buried under the rubble. The stab wounds weren't necessary to have them trapped and crushed under the red keep.
Why in the world would you have the Golden Company OUTSIDE of the gates when you are defending the city?
It didn't really matter as they all got roasted quickly, but that was just dumb.
My point was simply this: there are plenty of examples throughout history of civilians simply being slaughtered to generate fear.
Eric, not sure if you have seen it but this season HBO does a special 30 min making of segment for each episode where they go through the set design and special effects. For Ep5 they specifically said that the scenes with Arya covered in ash and walking through a burned out KL was inspired by the Dresden bombing.
Were you angry when Tyrion and them washed up to shore the episode before? What is the difference?
For me, ruthlessness unchecked and allowed to run wild will lead to madness.
Ruthless used as a tool and a calculation is more of a psychopathy and eventually, evil.
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Rising out of the sea miraculously to fight Jaime was a bridge too far. Then him somehow making it to Cercei w two major stab wounds through the mass destruction. just sent people over the top. Totally unsurprising he’s go back to his sister, who is his truelove to me
Were you angry when Tyrion and them washed up to shore the episode before? What is the difference?
The difference is Tyrion is still alive and Euron, who absolutely blows as an actor and character, died right after anyway in a meaningless fight with Jaime.
That is a response to exactly no one on this thread.
My far out theory (maybe I posted it in here) as after seeing all the death and destruction, families torn apart, the mother and child bond, list mostly done (cersei?) maybe she think she is ready to settle down, and she's going to find Gendry.
I still think outside of Jon (who doesn't want it) and obviously Dany, Gendry has the best claim to the throne.
and a Baratheon and Stark on the throne probably makes the most sense at this point.
Dany legitimizing Gendry was maybe a bit of foreshadowing. Instead of winning his favor she created a claim.
And in reality Gendry's claim is probably better than anyone's as a legitimate Robert Baratheon heir.
I feel like that theory makes a ton of sense, so I don't fault anyone for arguing it. With that said, I would be disappointed about that, the person who sits on the Iron throne has to be a major character (Jon/Dany/Sansa/Tyrion etc). It cant be a minor character like Gendry
I think she'll either go back to Winterfell and family or wander Westeros as a knight-errant
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In comment 14442687 LauderdaleMatty said:
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Rising out of the sea miraculously to fight Jaime was a bridge too far. Then him somehow making it to Cercei w two major stab wounds through the mass destruction. just sent people over the top. Totally unsurprising he’s go back to his sister, who is his truelove to me
Were you angry when Tyrion and them washed up to shore the episode before? What is the difference?
The difference is Tyrion is still alive and Euron, who absolutely blows as an actor and character, died right after anyway in a meaningless fight with Jaime.
Tyrion also washed up on a large rock outcropping that was (presumably) the closest shoreline to where their ships were. And his ship wasn't set on fire, though he was hit on the head by a beam.
Euron appeared to be burned alive and then coincidentally washed up on a small rock outcrop just as Jamie appeared to be passing by...
Granted if Euron wasn't such a shitty actor and annoying character, the last part wouldn't matter as much.
and as she's told us, she's no longer a little bird.
But having been through what she's been through changed her, so maybe Arya changes as well.
I just can't see Sansa on the throne, she's too whiny for me though it wouldn't be a stretch from a story standpoint.
Brienne as hand of the queen/king?
Not sure if Samwell Tarly has anything left either.
Jon (5-2): he doesn't want to rule, but he's been a reluctant leader the entire story. He has the best claim (son of Rhaegar) and allies that would support him everywhere: Gendry in Storms End, Tyrion if he goes back to Casterly Rock, Sansa in the North and Vale (ironically she might be the most hesitant to support him), Sam with either the maesters or Highgarden, wildlings (FWIW).
Dany (9-1): Takes out her remaining "enemies" and continues the wheel of history
Sansa & Tyrion (20-1): Jon dies or refuses the thrown, the two of them marry (again) to unite the North/South.
Arya & Gendry (50-1): Gendry might have a legitimate claim to the throne, but he was reluctant just to take on Lord of Storms End and Arya's shown no interest in wanting to settle, let alone wanting to rule.
and as she's told us, she's no longer a little bird.
But having been through what she's been through changed her, so maybe Arya changes as well.
I just can't see Sansa on the throne, she's too whiny for me though it wouldn't be a stretch from a story standpoint.
Brienne as hand of the queen/king?
Not sure if Samwell Tarly has anything left either.
If Sansa ends up on the throne, Brienne will lead the Queensguard.
This is completely inaccurate. The scorpions were only effective last week when Dany wasn't on guard and aware that they were there firing at her. Last week, while Dany was flying with her two dragons and not aware that Euron's fleet was right there and she wasn't on guard, Rhaegal was hit with three bolts (and one missed).
At that point, Dany became aware of the scorpions, and from then, she and Drogon weren't touched once. Not when Dany and her dragon veered off, not when she circled back and dove at them, and not when she flew across as countless bolts were fired in her direction from the scorpions.
This week, Dany and her dragon approached the scorpions with awareness and just like last week, they successfully avoided the scorpion bolts.
As for their quick destruction, why wouldn't they be destroyed quickly? They were mounted on wooden frames on wooden ships being attacked by dragon fire. So long as Dany and her dragon weren't hit, there was nothing to suggest that the scorpions would be hard to destroy.
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still has story left too I guess.
and as she's told us, she's no longer a little bird.
But having been through what she's been through changed her, so maybe Arya changes as well.
I just can't see Sansa on the throne, she's too whiny for me though it wouldn't be a stretch from a story standpoint.
Brienne as hand of the queen/king?
Not sure if Samwell Tarly has anything left either.
If Sansa ends up on the throne, Brienne will lead the Queensguard.
That is what I thought, too. If Sansa is on the throne, would Tyrion be the hand. Can he still be the hand after how awful he has become as Dany's hand?
I also realize things are highly unlikely to end up this "neat" and would be somewhat disappointed if they did.
I also realize things are highly unlikely to end up this "neat" and would be somewhat disappointed if they did.
I also think Dany is going to make a move on Sansa's life this week, which will cause Jon to switch allegiance to Sansa. There is no way after last week, with Sansa knowing the story and her open disdain for Dany that Dany is not going to try to have her arrested and killed.
There's still the Lannister army, which I'm guessing has more survivors than many believe like the Dothraki/Unsullied after the Battle of Winterfell. And I imagine their are minor lords in Casterly Rock still alive.
IMO bittersweet would be something like Arya dying while killing Danny and Drogon to give the throne to Jon or Sansa.
Or Tyrion dying to secure the throne for Jon.
If you believe Jamie and Cersei are dead and euron is dead and the NK is dead and Qyburn and the Mountain are dead then the enemies are limited.
Dany with her heel turn and what remains of her entourage, Bronn I guess (for Tyrion) and who?
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for Sansa or Jon, assuming Tyrion doesn't die. Though I think if Sansa ends up on the throne it also comes with a marriage to Tyrion.
I also realize things are highly unlikely to end up this "neat" and would be somewhat disappointed if they did.
I also think Dany is going to make a move on Sansa's life this week, which will cause Jon to switch allegiance to Sansa. There is no way after last week, with Sansa knowing the story and her open disdain for Dany that Dany is not going to try to have her arrested and killed.
Dany's definitely going after Sansa, et al in the finale. It's just a question of who survives.
Jon probably tries to act as a mediator (but fails) before his allegiance to his family (Sansa/Arya) wins out. Especially after seeing the carnage Dany unleashed.
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In comment 14442945 giants#1 said:
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for Sansa or Jon, assuming Tyrion doesn't die. Though I think if Sansa ends up on the throne it also comes with a marriage to Tyrion.
I also realize things are highly unlikely to end up this "neat" and would be somewhat disappointed if they did.
I also think Dany is going to make a move on Sansa's life this week, which will cause Jon to switch allegiance to Sansa. There is no way after last week, with Sansa knowing the story and her open disdain for Dany that Dany is not going to try to have her arrested and killed.
Dany's definitely going after Sansa, et al in the finale. It's just a question of who survives.
Jon probably tries to act as a mediator (but fails) before his allegiance to his family (Sansa/Arya) wins out. Especially after seeing the carnage Dany unleashed.
The good thing is that Jon has already in effect chosen sides when he disobeyed Dany and told Sansa and Arya the secret of his birth parents. Thus, I do see it as the Starks vs Dany and that Jon sides with the Starks. Thus, it is highly likely that someone is going to die from the Starks side, but that they will ultimately win. One of them will be the king. At this point, though, who tat will be is anyone's guess.
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Better than actually liking it! Her dragon fighting tactics were so unrealistic! Anyone knows her angle of flight was just off! Pure crap! I’m so smart because I want to find problems with a show that has dragons and giants! Build a moat morons! It obviously will keep the dead out! Didn’t anyone see footage from world war 2? They did the same then!
That is a response to exactly no one on this thread.
Obviously I exaggerated but people keep questioning battle tactics and how some scenes aren't realistic. It's just funny how some things are accepted, like the until being fine with a knife through his eye, but god forbid Euron washed up on shore after the ship was destroyed.
Moreover, its that that the books and the show (early on) had excellent writing focused on character development and dialogue in the context of the unpredictable struggle for power in the kingdom. The last few seasons have been more like a Michael Bey movie than what we saw then.
Take Varys, for example. This is someone whose broad network of spies and allies both in two continents rendered him a secretive survivor and invaluable aide. He successfully orchestrated a near-impossible effort to get Daenerys back to Westeros with sufficient power to retake the Iron Throne. Yet we are supposed to believe he would overtly endorse Jon for the throne in front of a half-dozen witnesses knowing full well he is likely to be roasted alive for it? That's just lazy writing.
I have no issue with Varys plotting against Daenerys, getting discovered, and being roasted alive just like I have no problem with Daenerys going mad and destroying Kings Landing. I have a problem with tee lazy writing and lack of plot development that got us there.
Bran still hasn't "flown" yet (unless birds count). I'm guessing he wargs into Drogon and pulls a kamikaze mission killing Drogon and himself in the process
He is no longer Bran Stark (in his own words), he's the 3ER, I doubt he is considered for the iron throne, though he clearly has the best claim for warden of the north, I doubt he is interested in that either, I think he winds up intertwined with a weirwood tree.
My far out theory (maybe I posted it in here) as after seeing all the death and destruction, families torn apart, the mother and child bond, list mostly done (cersei?) maybe she think she is ready to settle down, and she's going to find Gendry.
I still think outside of Jon (who doesn't want it) and obviously Dany, Gendry has the best claim to the throne.
and a Baratheon and Stark on the throne probably makes the most sense at this point.
Dany legitimizing Gendry was maybe a bit of foreshadowing. Instead of winning his favor she created a claim.
And in reality Gendry's claim is probably better than anyone's as a legitimate Robert Baratheon heir.
I was thinking about this somewhat too. The message I got with all of the footage showing Arya in the chaos was that, "war is hell".
She had the moment with Sandor in which she realized that no, she didn't want to be like him. That's immediately followed by the horror of all of those folks being crushed and burned alive.
Either she "changes her ways" or she uses that as motivation to stop the mother of dragons at all costs. I could see either happening.
Even the scene with the horse suggests her changing her ways by "finding the light" in all of the misery. That is unless you think that they were trying to convey "death rides a pale horse"...
that debate lingers on, but I'd say more often than not it's a coincidence.
Perfect "full circle" ending. A Stark is killed by fire in Kings Landing, causing a Baratheon to lead a revolt, joined by a Stark. Ruler is then killed by a Lannister she trusted.
If Bran - the most useless character in history - takes the Throne, GoT will be the worst show ever.
that debate lingers on, but I'd say more often than not it's a coincidence.
Depending on the translation, its not just a pale horse, its
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death;"
I think a horse covered in ashes is more then a coincidence.
Not sure if there's even an iron throne remaining, but if there is I don't really see Gendry sitting on it just because he's such an underdeveloped character as a leader. Tyrion would be my best guess because he's the most practical solution if he survives and if Jon doesn't want it - but does he have any base of power to keep the throne? Once Dany is out of the way perhaps Sansa/Tyrion becomes a thing again since "they won't have the dragon queen" anymore. Arya changing her mind about being a lady and deciding to go to storm's end would make sense too.
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too "death rides a pale horse" and the whole 4 horseman theory, but does Martin bring many bible verses into his story?
that debate lingers on, but I'd say more often than not it's a coincidence.
Depending on the translation, its not just a pale horse, its
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death;"
I think a horse covered in ashes is more then a coincidence.
Either way, Arya coming after Dany did not need a horse of the apocalypse to symbolize it. Arya has been connected to death since season 1 - tighter in later seasons.
Outside of those two, the only way to be king would be through support of a majority of the other houses. It certainly will not be the hated imp or the bastard blacksmith. It will be a Stark.
There are really just the three options: Dany, Jon, or Sansa. Anything outside of those three is a reach at best and silly.
Name names in white font, I'm curious who you're accusing of this. I for one have never visited that or any other spoiler site (other than here when people unintentionally spoil stuff).
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In comment 14443055 pjcas18 said:
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too "death rides a pale horse" and the whole 4 horseman theory, but does Martin bring many bible verses into his story?
that debate lingers on, but I'd say more often than not it's a coincidence.
Depending on the translation, its not just a pale horse, its
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death;"
I think a horse covered in ashes is more then a coincidence.
Either way, Arya coming after Dany did not need a horse of the apocalypse to symbolize it. Arya has been connected to death since season 1 - tighter in later seasons.
Yup - they brought Arya to KL for a reason and it wasn't just to run through the streets + wreckage. She is the odds on favorite for a number of reasons. She and Sansa having been the most exposed to Cersei's cruelty in the first seasons were the most skeptical of Dany the entire time.
I don't think you're referring to me but for what it's worth I have diligently avoided r/freefolk and the social media spoilers; my one minor prediction was my own speculation.
Outside of those two, the only way to be king would be through support of a majority of the other houses. It certainly will not be the hated imp or the bastard blacksmith. It will be a Stark.
There are really just the three options: Dany, Jon, or Sansa. Anything outside of those three is a reach at best and silly.
Gendry has a claim stronger than Dany.
In Robert's rebellion Robert Baratheon won the throne with support of all houses (except of course the Targaryen's who were decimated - other than Jon Snow, only Viserys and Dany I believe remained).
The way the Lanisters got their grubby hands on the throne (Cersei) was due to Joffrey/Tommen being Robert's children (even though we know they were not) and upon their death Cersei remained queen sans the regent title.
now that he's a legitimized baratheon his claim is technically strongest without a war to claim the throne.
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Gendry has a claim stronger than Dany.
In Robert's rebellion Robert Baratheon won the throne with support of all houses (except of course the Targaryen's who were decimated - other than Jon Snow, only Viserys and Dany I believe remained).
The way the Lanisters got their grubby hands on the throne (Cersei) was due to Joffrey/Tommen being Robert's children (even though we know they were not) and upon their death Cersei remained queen sans the regent title.
now that he's a legitimized baratheon his claim is technically strongest without a war to claim the throne.
That's not quite right. The Tyrells and Tarlys, for example, fought against Robert. Robert had the best "claim" because a long-ago ancestor was a (bastard?) Targ. I think it's pretty safe to say that Dany is much more of a Targ than Gendry.
Well, those people are just miserable, butthurt, whiny complainers who can never be happy and who think they're smarter than everyone else.
So there!
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Gendry has a claim stronger than Dany.
In Robert's rebellion Robert Baratheon won the throne with support of all houses (except of course the Targaryen's who were decimated - other than Jon Snow, only Viserys and Dany I believe remained).
The way the Lanisters got their grubby hands on the throne (Cersei) was due to Joffrey/Tommen being Robert's children (even though we know they were not) and upon their death Cersei remained queen sans the regent title.
now that he's a legitimized baratheon his claim is technically strongest without a war to claim the throne.
That's not quite right. The Tyrells and Tarlys, for example, fought against Robert. Robert had the best "claim" because a long-ago ancestor was a (bastard?) Targ. I think it's pretty safe to say that Dany is much more of a Targ than Gendry.
Robert's Rebellion was a mostly unified attack on the Targaryen's provoked by Rhaegar Targaryen snubbing the Martell's and making advances on Lyanna Stark (who was betrothed to Robert Baratheon), whom Rhaegar then "kidnapped".
Aerys (Rhaegars's father) then brutally murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark who attempted to come to Lyanna's aid.
There were lords and houses that resisted, but by and large the majority of Westeros supported Robert and the Starks (an the Arryn's) and even the Lannisters.
Robert won the throne in battle, not because he was a distant Targaryen cousin (which is true).
House Baratheon is their own house just like House Targaryen is their own house.
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In comment 14443103 pjcas18 said:
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Gendry has a claim stronger than Dany.
In Robert's rebellion Robert Baratheon won the throne with support of all houses (except of course the Targaryen's who were decimated - other than Jon Snow, only Viserys and Dany I believe remained).
The way the Lanisters got their grubby hands on the throne (Cersei) was due to Joffrey/Tommen being Robert's children (even though we know they were not) and upon their death Cersei remained queen sans the regent title.
now that he's a legitimized baratheon his claim is technically strongest without a war to claim the throne.
That's not quite right. The Tyrells and Tarlys, for example, fought against Robert. Robert had the best "claim" because a long-ago ancestor was a (bastard?) Targ. I think it's pretty safe to say that Dany is much more of a Targ than Gendry.
Robert's Rebellion was a mostly unified attack on the Targaryen's provoked by Rhaegar Targaryen snubbing the Martell's and making advances on Lyanna Stark (who was betrothed to Robert Baratheon), whom Rhaegar then "kidnapped".
Aerys (Rhaegars's father) then brutally murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark who attempted to come to Lyanna's aid.
There were lords and houses that resisted, but by and large the majority of Westeros supported Robert and the Starks (an the Arryn's) and even the Lannisters.
Robert won the throne in battle, not because he was a distant Targaryen cousin (which is true).
House Baratheon is their own house just like House Targaryen is their own house.
You're basically then arguing that a Baratheon has a better claim than a Targ. Which, ok, but really that just comes down to power.
it's why when there is a "regime change" they hunt down and kill all the children, even known bastards.
I think it will come down to who the Starks, Greyjoys, Arryn's, etc. support.
Gendry had to keep his identity hidden, just like Edric Storm in the books, because otherwise they would have been killed.
As for Hands maybe Davos? Tyrion? Sansa? although I think she would be warden of the North. Maybe Gendry? Sam? Sam would be a good choice.
Dany (high odds)
and one of Jon Snow or Arya (but not both)
I think Tyrion is 50/50, maybe he goes out in a display of heroism.
Though, Martin has said before that 5 characters survive to the end: Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Arya, and Jon Snow
not sure the show writers stick to that, and sorry if that's a spoiler, it's been known for years.
true, I assumed he meant survived, but I guess not a safe assumption. No mention of Sansa though.
Sorry that article where Martin said that is over 3 years old and it's been discussed on here many times, I figured everyone knew it.
Maybe if the OP sees this he can delete the thread and start a new one to discuss the finale and I'll refrain from any "theories"
I don't want this thread to get deleted because of me! Lot of good (and otherwise) reading for me!
Peace out!
As for Hands maybe Davos? Tyrion? Sansa? although I think she would be warden of the North. Maybe Gendry? Sam? Sam would be a good choice.
Assuming they get into the details of his small council, I'd guess Davos is hand assuming who lives. Otherwise probably Tyrion. Sansa - Lady of Winterfell, Warden of the North. Sam's more fit to be his maester, than a hand, given his limited knowledge of ruling/battle field tactics. Maybe Arya is named to the Kingsguard.
Dany (high odds)
and one of Jon Snow or Arya (but not both)
I think Tyrion is 50/50, maybe he goes out in a display of heroism.
Though, Martin has said before that 5 characters survive to the end: Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Arya, and Jon Snow
not sure the show writers stick to that, and sorry if that's a spoiler, it's been known for years.
The surviving characters you listed were for his original book series pitch in which Jon and Tyrion were both trying to get it on with Arya, Sansa has Joffreys kid and betrays House Stark, and Cat dies north of the wall. It's probably safe to say that won't happen.
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for the finale I have:
Dany (high odds)
and one of Jon Snow or Arya (but not both)
I think Tyrion is 50/50, maybe he goes out in a display of heroism.
Though, Martin has said before that 5 characters survive to the end: Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Arya, and Jon Snow
not sure the show writers stick to that, and sorry if that's a spoiler, it's been known for years.
The surviving characters you listed were for his original book series pitch in which Jon and Tyrion were both trying to get it on with Arya, Sansa has Joffreys kid and betrays House Stark, and Cat dies north of the wall. It's probably safe to say that won't happen.
Not sure about any of the subplots, in the article it only talks about the original outline but Martin goes on to say as you build up plots and drop hints and foreshadow things (my paraphrasing) you can't easily change the plot.
So, while it's possible that his trilogy outline (not plot) changes, it's also very possible it doesn't.
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Jon Snow or Aegon Targaryen 6th of his name on the throne. This is the story of Fire and Ice... It is Jon's story. He didn't kill the NK so it has to finish up with him on the Iron Throne as the reluctant ruler. This isn't the story of the girl with no name or the whiny betrayer of family or the mad queen, etc.
As for Hands maybe Davos? Tyrion? Sansa? although I think she would be warden of the North. Maybe Gendry? Sam? Sam would be a good choice.
Assuming they get into the details of his small council, I'd guess Davos is hand assuming who lives. Otherwise probably Tyrion. Sansa - Lady of Winterfell, Warden of the North. Sam's more fit to be his maester, than a hand, given his limited knowledge of ruling/battle field tactics. Maybe Arya is named to the Kingsguard.
I don't think Sam would want to be maester any more since he is now lord of his house will probably want to marry Gilly and have more babies or at least practice at it. Hand doesn't necessarily run your battles. The king shits and the hand wipes.
He'd make an excellent hand of the king or head of the kings guard.
or he's just good for comedic relief.
He'd make an excellent hand of the king or head of the kings guard.
or he's just good for comedic relief.
Tormund and Sansa? Huh could be fun!
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the last of Tormund Giantsbane. One of my favorite characters.
He'd make an excellent hand of the king or head of the kings guard.
or he's just good for comedic relief.
Tormund and Sansa? Huh could be fun!
I think he winds up with Brienne somehow.
Considering how much this season has crammed in, a lot can happen in 80 minutes of run time.
What if nobody takes the iron throne and the 7 kingdoms go back to being 7 separate kingdoms again?
The heads of almost all of the major houses are gone with some completely destroyed.
King's Landing is leveled. There literally is no iron throne anymore.
That certainly could be seen as "breaking the wheel" in a sense.
What if nobody takes the iron throne and the 7 kingdoms go back to being 7 separate kingdoms again?
The heads of almost all of the major houses are gone with some completely destroyed.
King's Landing is leveled. There literally is no iron throne anymore.
That certainly could be seen as "breaking the wheel" in a sense.
I'd be surprised if the iron throne is destroyed. I imagine we'll see a shot of Dany in the throne room (or what's left of it) with the ashes falling.
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Not sure if that was directed at me, but I never read any of the spoilers. My theory was just based on setting up a similar situation to Robert rebellion.
Only way to get there is by Dany relinquishing her power - either she does it voluntarily or she is killed. I still think there's enough good in her to be swayed to do the right thing. And ultimately I still think that Jon Snow dies - just a feeling that his story comes to an end with some sort of sacrifice. Perhaps his death may be what sways her.
Only way to get there is by Dany relinquishing her power - either she does it voluntarily or she is killed. I still think there's enough good in her to be swayed to do the right thing. And ultimately I still think that Jon Snow dies - just a feeling that his story comes to an end with some sort of sacrifice. Perhaps his death may be what sways her.
All those leaders of 7 kingdoms were already in place with a king or queen on the iron throne. Only they all in theory bent the knee to King's Landing.
I also realize things are highly unlikely to end up this "neat" and would be somewhat disappointed if they did.
I think Tyrion would be a good hand to someone whose a little more sane or not looking to conquer anything. But after this if he survives he might be done with the whole thing and live out his life with wine in his belly and a whores mouth ...........
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The chick with the green hair posing the whole time for the camera is annoying as fuck
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The 7 kingdoms are ready to be divided up among those that are still alive: Sansa Stark gets the North/Winterfell. Gendry Baratheon(now no longer a bastard) keeps Storm's End. Yara Greyjoy is already in place at the Iron Islands. Tyrion Lannister takes over at Casterly Rock. Dorne has a new leader that was already mentioned in passing. Robin Arryn is still Lord of the Eyrie. That just leaves Highgarden - which was promised to Bronn by Tyrion (and a Lannister always pays his debts).
Only way to get there is by Dany relinquishing her power - either she does it voluntarily or she is killed. I still think there's enough good in her to be swayed to do the right thing. And ultimately I still think that Jon Snow dies - just a feeling that his story comes to an end with some sort of sacrifice. Perhaps his death may be what sways her.
All those leaders of 7 kingdoms were already in place with a king or queen on the iron throne. Only they all in theory bent the knee to King's Landing.
Not sure what you mean - none of those proposed leaders were in place prior to Cersei, and none of them have pledged any loyalty to Cersei.
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In comment 14443824 eclipz928 said:
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The 7 kingdoms are ready to be divided up among those that are still alive: Sansa Stark gets the North/Winterfell. Gendry Baratheon(now no longer a bastard) keeps Storm's End. Yara Greyjoy is already in place at the Iron Islands. Tyrion Lannister takes over at Casterly Rock. Dorne has a new leader that was already mentioned in passing. Robin Arryn is still Lord of the Eyrie. That just leaves Highgarden - which was promised to Bronn by Tyrion (and a Lannister always pays his debts).
Only way to get there is by Dany relinquishing her power - either she does it voluntarily or she is killed. I still think there's enough good in her to be swayed to do the right thing. And ultimately I still think that Jon Snow dies - just a feeling that his story comes to an end with some sort of sacrifice. Perhaps his death may be what sways her.
All those leaders of 7 kingdoms were already in place with a king or queen on the iron throne. Only they all in theory bent the knee to King's Landing.
Not sure what you mean - none of those proposed leaders were in place prior to Cersei, and none of them have pledged any loyalty to Cersei.
when the story started they all acknowledged Robert Baratheon as king of the realm. There were some squabbles, but for the most part that's been accepted.
it wasn't until Ned's beheading and Robb Stark's battle revenge, Stannis/Renly making claims over Joffrey the incestuous Lannister, etc. the red wedding, etc. that this turmoil began.
Prior to Robert's rebellion all the 7 kingdoms also had their own leadership, but also acknowledged Aerys Targaryen as the king of the 7 kingdoms.
it's how things are in times without turmoil.
So to suggest each of the 7 kingdoms would have their own leadership, they already did was my point.
Yes, the people you named replace others, but not the fact they all bent the knee to king's Landing (for the most part - scheming not withstanding).
If you're suggesting a vacuum in king's landing, but 7 autonomous kingdoms without bending the knee to anyone, someone would be power hungry and that would never last, even if that's how it ends (IMO).
Without dragons, or something equivalent, there's no reason to expect any one of the newly autonomous realms to make an uprising and try to repeat history. Not to mention that none of these leaders have really shown that sort of want or ambition to be conquerors.
But the point is that a logical and dramatic conclusion to this story would actually be for the characters in this world to throw away the only thing that they've ever known (absolute monarchy) and progress towards something that could be potentially better.
Without dragons, or something equivalent, there's no reason to expect any one of the newly autonomous realms to make an uprising and try to repeat history. Not to mention that none of these leaders have really shown that sort of want or ambition to be conquerors.
But the point is that a logical and dramatic conclusion to this story would actually be for the characters in this world to throw away the only thing that they've ever known (absolute monarchy) and progress towards something that could be potentially better.
Makes sense, but I don't see Dany relinquishing power while she's alive.
And the dragons helped unify Westeros, but they last century or so of Targaryen rule (my guess) there were no dragons.
I'm not fully convinced that Dany survives and decides to give up the throne - it's mostly wishful thinking because i don't want to see that character go completely beyond redemption. There's other directions that this all can go and end up at the same place.
I'm not fully convinced that Dany survives and decides to give up the throne - it's mostly wishful thinking because i don't want to see that character go completely beyond redemption. There's other directions that this all can go and end up at the same place.
Definitely, but if you read at all about Aerys and Tywin's history there are some similarities between Dany and Aerys.
I think they were alluding to the madness for a while, not to Aerys level. I mean he was paranoid - without reason for the most part, Dany is probably paranoid too - but with good reason.
I just think Martin ties it up in a bow, a Targaryen goes mad to start this thing, and a Targaryen goes mad to end it.
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Pathetic. It's been happening on threads all season. The leaks from months ago on r/freefolk and other social media have proven 95% true. Posting them word for word and pretending it's a theory of yours is cringey. I won't name names so as not to ruin it for others.
Not sure if that was directed at me, but I never read any of the spoilers. My theory was just based on setting up a similar situation to Robert rebellion.
yo bonds is a horse's ass.
This series deserves a final season that makes sense.
Subvert my expectations and make it happen, HBO!
Remake Game of Thrones Season 8 with competent writers. - ( New Window )
He'd make an excellent hand of the king or head of the kings guard.
or he's just good for comedic relief.
I hope so too. Tormund is a great character that I hope we see in the finale. If you look closely you will see that Varys had already written 4 scrolls and was working on a 5th to alert allies that Jon is the true heir to the throne. One is obviously headed to Dorne, another to Gendry Baratheon, and I am assuming the rest are for houses in the North. Remember back to last season when Gendry introduced himself to Jon and said that their fathers were close and fought side by side. Even though Dany gave Gendry the land and title his loyalty will still be to Jon. I had a feeling that this decision would come back to hurt her and I think it will next week. I would love to see one final battle between Jon and Dany.
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that.
Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that. Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
fine Bowls, but this quote is just patently fucking absurd:
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Read this link if interested for full detail.
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that. Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
fine Bowls, but this quote is just patently fucking absurd:
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"It is my hope that in the future, writers of television and films will consider having cultural and/or mental health consultants on staff, especially when writing storylines dealing with trauma, shock, and horror in order to be conscientious about the potential effects the particular episode or scene may have on the viewers."
Are you kidding, she has been showing signs of being like her dad for 3 seasons now. Wah, wah, I was on team Dany and she isn't going to win, wah.
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that. Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
rewatch the series and pay closer attention. Ive been doing that and now, knowing what we now know, the signs were always there.
And there are a ton of YouTube videos out there now that show her dark side for years, and how she was counseled out of even darker impulses. Those refusing to acknowledge this have a strange vested interest in the character's "goodness."
Exactly - it's not that it's implausible that it could have happened, just poorly written in the way it happened since the battle was won and she could easily have booked it straight into Cersei's window to get the exact revenge she'd longed for. The core justification for intentionally "burning them all" is that she went mad, which IMO is just a cop out. Especially since almost everything that presumably drove her mad the last 2 seasons was also poorly written. Losing all of her allies/advisors except the one who has been wrong more often than Marc Ross, losing the dragon north of the wall, losing her second dragon and missandei, etc.
Yes - if they'd written the last 2 seasons better people wouldn't be complaining about how poorly written these last 2 seasons have been.
It's not just the slave masters. She burned down the Dothraki leadership... literally locked them insider their hut and burned them alive. She threatened to literally have her dragons burn down another city that refused to allow her admittance. I keep saying the same thing... if you go back and re-watch the series from the start, you'll see she has a dark side. And as detailed earlier in this thread, her personal losses have been immense.
Dany will be one of the most tragic of the tragic figures.
the true heir to the Targaryen throne.
People complaining about Dany, didn't understand Dany.
this was expected (maybe I didn't expect the extent), but definitely not surprising.
However, I'm sure this will prove to be a fatal mistake for her.
How did she not kill many (most?) of the unsullied or remaining Dothraki and the Northern army with Jon?
My surprise was more than she's just killing everyone.
Once Grey worm and the unsullied attacked the Lannister army who had dropped their swords the crowds were mixed IMO.
And that's exactly the point that some here are not getting. That even though it's based on a book that this is still a tv series - it's not going to crawl to a finish. There has to be dramatic moments that grab you're attention and give you a reaction.
If you're someone that needs things to be stretched out so that every detail can be sorted and every action explained then you should just wait for the novelization.
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She killed the slavemasters! How can she be bad? Well forget for a second that slavery was a common practice in these cities and lots of "good" people owned slaves. She enjoyed torturing them. Did all those slavemasters treat their slaves harshly? I doubt it. And she constantly had to be talked down from the edge of doing drastic action. Which as we know once a Tarq embraces a violent nature things have a tendency not to end well. People are entitled to their opinions, but this Dany outrage is retarded and it makes me upset there are so many people that lack basic critical thinking skills.
It's not just the slave masters. She burned down the Dothraki leadership... literally locked them insider their hut and burned them alive. She threatened to literally have her dragons burn down another city that refused to allow her admittance. I keep saying the same thing... if you go back and re-watch the series from the start, you'll see she has a dark side. And as detailed earlier in this thread, her personal losses have been immense.
Please Eric.....don’t tell me you weren’t high-fiving your wife when she burned down that hut. As I recall, those guys were male chauvinistic pigs and treated women like scum. Those guys got what they deserved and the people were better off without those sleezeballs running the show.
Has anyone provided evidence that shows she ruthlessly killed poor and downtrodden people, like they showed at KL?
Slavemasters
Sleezeball Dothraki men
Two soldiers who wouldn’t bend the knee
Come on people.....this is all you GOT?
Plus the big difference with her and Jon Snow is that he always felt terrible about having to Someone even when they dwarves it, while she seemed to relish the killing.
The feminist angle is ridiculous considering, perhaps more than any show, the most powerful characters are (were) women: Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya. Jon's really the only powerful male left, and he's basically a bumbling idiot. Granted everyone follows him because of his battle success, but he has 0 strategic insight.
I think they did it great early on, which is why many missed the undertones. But once the source material was gone, they did a much poorer job and then felt like they had to force it on us this season to justify it.
I mentioned it earlier, but a simple thing like a stray arrow hitting Drogon after the bells chimed would've made her motivations for destroying everything that much clearer. Would've played on her paranoia and at this point her distrust of Tyrion (bells are just a trap) and her love of her "children".
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it just wasn’t done well, especially in a rushed season.
Exactly - it's not that it's implausible that it could have happened, just poorly written in the way it happened since the battle was won and she could easily have booked it straight into Cersei's window to get the exact revenge she'd longed for. The core justification for intentionally "burning them all" is that she went mad, which IMO is just a cop out. Especially since almost everything that presumably drove her mad the last 2 seasons was also poorly written. Losing all of her allies/advisors except the one who has been wrong more often than Marc Ross, losing the dragon north of the wall, losing her second dragon and missandei, etc.
The justification is t that she just went mad. Where are you getting that from?
The justification has been set up clearly this season and was even laid out perfectly in this episode with here talk with Jon Snow prior to the battle. Aside from combat scenes, every single scene with Dany since Jon told her his lineage has been about her being an outsider in Westeros and not having a single soul outside of the folks (all but one dead) from Essos that believes in or loves her. She isn’t misa here. Considering the new challenge to her throne she has decided that the only way she can gain and retain power is to rule by fear. She literally says that to Jon Snow, it couldn’t be more clear. She hasn’t all of a sudden gone mad- she’s made a calculated decision. Sure, it’s violent and sadistic, but she has always been violent and sadistic.
Plus the big difference with her and Jon Snow is that he always felt terrible about having to Someone even when they dwarves it, while she seemed to relish the killing.
I don’t recall that ......can you fill me in on the details. Sorry, but when you get on Medicare, you start to lose some memory.....
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
WTF is wrong with you?
She has been building to this moment her whole life, from the time she was sold to the Dothraki and "okayed" the killing of Viserys giving her the best known claim to the iron throne, and accumulating her army to help her claim that throne.
Even Jorah said it, she's a conqueror not a ruler.
the backlash and surprise is by people who are vapid.
The fact she chose to rule by fear rather than love was blatant, in fact she said it.
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Toward poor innocent people with no power, no history of abuse to ones fellow man, and with clean hands. Please provide a link of the past episode so I can refresh my memory. I don’t recall her ever killing INNOCENT people who did not harm others or take advantage of them. Thanks.
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
WTF is wrong with you?
She has been building to this moment her whole life, from the time she was sold to the Dothraki and "okayed" the killing of Viserys giving her the best known claim to the iron throne, and accumulating her army to help her claim that throne.
Even Jorah said it, she's a conqueror not a ruler.
the backlash and surprise is by people who are vapid.
The fact she chose to rule by fear rather than love was blatant, in fact she said it.
That is your rebuttal....no proof but rather disparaging name calling instead. And this makes you right?
It's like asking someone in 2006 to show you proof the NY Giants were capable of winning a Super Bowl.
your request was inane, you deserve whatever you get on this thread.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
The justification is t that she just went mad. Where are you getting that from?
The justification has been set up clearly this season and was even laid out perfectly in this episode with here talk with Jon Snow prior to the battle. Aside from combat scenes, every single scene with Dany since Jon told her his lineage has been about her being an outsider in Westeros and not having a single soul outside of the folks (all but one dead) from Essos that believes in or loves her. She isn’t misa here. Considering the new challenge to her throne she has decided that the only way she can gain and retain power is to rule by fear. She literally says that to Jon Snow, it couldn’t be more clear. She hasn’t all of a sudden gone mad- she’s made a calculated decision. Sure, it’s violent and sadistic, but she has always been violent and sadistic.
Ruling by fear doesn't require burning down the entire city - which not only included killing women and children but also probably many of her own soldiers. Destroying the red keep probably would have served the purpose just fine.
The 'madness' angle comes straight from the creators who I believe said this wasn't a predetermined plan but rather a spontaneous decision in the moment for vengeance.
Look I'm not one of those people who nitpicks the air speed of dragon flight, or the effectiveness of scorpions one episode to the next, or any of the other minutia of trench warfare strategies vs. an army of the dead - but I do think it's fair to be critical of the way they've rushed these last 2 seasons and injected a bunch of major plot lines with contrived events. Even if you don't dislike the way the heel turn went in this past episode, would you not agree that some of the major events the past 2 seasons that led to that point have been ridiculous? The seal team six Missandei kidnapping included.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
This is correct. There were multiple times she was talked out of doing something more ruthless by her advisors. They toned her down time and time again. Without them there anymore, thereis no one to tell her no. Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
and why is that?
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Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
and why is that?
Exactly...Tyrion has his head up Cersei’s arse still wanting to believe she can be good and every piece of advice he has given Dany has been a setback and crashed and burned.
Dany should hire a FOOT instead of a HAND.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
It's like asking someone in 2006 to show you proof the NY Giants were capable of winning a Super Bowl.
your request was inane, you deserve whatever you get on this thread.
If you guys are satisfied with this mad gene mental illness theory, fine by me. I respect your opinion.
I call it sloppy elementary school writing with very little thought put into it. To all of a sudden make her a killer of innocents because she has this mental illness and then to make Jaime run back to Cersei just like that and then to make Arya do a complete 180 when Hound merely said you don’t want to be like me......I o those are all examples of writers who just want to go home quickly....if this pleases you, good for you. You can believe what you want. I believe this crappy childish writing has tarnished GOT’s great name and is thus causing so many fans to say goodbye with a bad taste. You should be like me and say, I respect your opinion too, thank you for respecting mine.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
if it's genetic, very likely.
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In comment 14445989 pjcas18 said:
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
if it's genetic, very likely.
So you believe there is a suicide gene in the DNA....prove it....do you have scientific proof that they have identified a suicide gene?
I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.
The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.
Yes, I called you obtuse.
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you just choose to ignore/minimize it. Take the 163 masters from Mereen. Some of them were against nailing the slave children to crosses so why did they "deserve" to be nailed to a cross (alive) in retaliation?
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
This is correct. There were multiple times she was talked out of doing something more ruthless by her advisors. They toned her down time and time again. Without them there anymore, thereis no one to tell her no. Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
I think you are right here PP but I don’t recall the specific details as to who or what group of people she was upset over. I SERIOUSLY doubt they were poor little nobodies who have done no harm to anyone.
Nevertheless, the fact that she was willing to defer to the wisdom of her “wise counselors” also shows me a positive attribute of being able to listen and not being so arrogant that only your opinion matters.
And don’t forget all the times she took Tyrion’s advice that ended up being costly and was bad advice.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
"going mad" is an easy cop out in lieu of writing something that made more sense. She had been in far worse situations that seemed desperate and hopeless that didn't drive her mad - situations Aerys hadn't had to go through. Also did plenty of positive things Aerys never did. Reducing her to her father just lacked the nuance that made this story different from most others. There have been plenty of gruesome twists in this story that didn't offend people's sensibilities and are among the signature episodes of the show - because they were well written/setup/logical from some perspective beyond "madness". that includes stuff that's happened in the seasons beyond the books. Cersei blowing up the sept for example. There were plenty of ways they could have ended this story with Dany doing something evil that wouldn't have been so heavy handed.
She already had the Throne by the time she made her decision to destroy the city.
In my opinion, there has not been one single shred of foreshadowing in the entire show that would point to her murdering a million innocent people AFTER getting what she has always wanted.
There's a simple way to fix all of this and this is the most baffling thing to me. All they had to do was:
1. Delete the ridiculous Iron Fleet scene from Ep4
2. Dany feels alone and betrayed in the world post Missandei's death, does not allow Jon to ride Rhaegal
3. Attacks Kings Landing with 2 dragons, everything goes as we saw
4. They ring the bells and surrender, but one more scorpion is left and out of nowhere, kills Rhaegal.
5. This sends Dany over the edge, leading to her destroying the entire city.
Instead we get a random, glossed over dragon death with no reaction from Dany or Jon and a total 180 from Dany regarding innocent people after already winning the Throne. Very sloppy to me
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
"going mad" is an easy cop out in lieu of writing something that made more sense. She had been in far worse situations that seemed desperate and hopeless that didn't drive her mad - situations Aerys hadn't had to go through. Also did plenty of positive things Aerys never did. Reducing her to her father just lacked the nuance that made this story different from most others. There have been plenty of gruesome twists in this story that didn't offend people's sensibilities and are among the signature episodes of the show - because they were well written/setup/logical from some perspective beyond "madness". that includes stuff that's happened in the seasons beyond the books. Cersei blowing up the sept for example. There were plenty of ways they could have ended this story with Dany doing something evil that wouldn't have been so heavy handed.
Not true. Under Aerys the real fourished. He began as a great ruler. Over time though, he became jealous of Tywin Lannister because as the hand of the king, Tywin was so efficient and did so much good, people felt like Tywin was really the ruler of Westeros.
Tywin, Aerys and Robert Baratheon's father (I forget his name) were all best friends as youths.
Aery's became more and more paranoid and even set out to intentionally embarass Tywin to put more glory on himself.
I saw shades of that with Dany as she saw the praise being lavished on Jon Snow.
to me, she broke. simple as that. She knew even if she sat on that iron throne it would be like her father and Tywin, people would love Jon and bend the knee to her to her face, but away they would not respect her.
What we saw was the Targaryen rage.
Due to pacing or time contstraints maybe they didn't build it up enough for people to find believable, but I did.
if people don't, I don't mind, to each his own.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
I’m not aware of how many if any masters were opposed to the nailing of the 163 children. Why didn’t they stop it? When you promote something evil like slave trading, don’t be upset if you get some evil back at you.
Queen D merely was administering good old fashion eye for eye tooth for tooth justice in Mereen.....163 for 163.
Mereen - ( New Window )
Later during the torching of KL the looks on Jon's face tell me he knows this (Dany's reign) cannot be allowed to continue. IMO.
Later during the torching of KL the looks on Jon's face tell me he knows this (Dany's reign) cannot be allowed to continue. IMO.
I too believe the writers want Dany offed but I don’t think it will be the fair haired boy called Jon. I think Bronn will have those honors. Remember, he wants HighGarden, and in order to secure that claim Tyrion has to be alive (Jaime isn’t).
I believe the Queen will RIGHTFULLY put Tyrion on trial for his insubordination by freeing Jaime to allow Cersei to escape. Tyrion was wrong in doing this and should rightfully be fried, and he probably would be......safe Bronn rescuing him.
And then the whole world can rejoice.....ding dong the Queen is dead, which old queen, the wicked mad queen.....ding dong the wicked queen is dead.
Sentences himself to the Night's Watch.
Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.
How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.
So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?
Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.
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it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.
Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.
How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.
So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?
Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.
Daenerys doesn't love you.
It runs in the family....what has Bran ever done? And it appears Season 8 is a break for Sansa too, except her disdainful looks always given to sweet Dany, who by the way, helped you keep your home intact, not to mention your lives.
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In comment 14446093 Essex said:
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it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.
Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.
How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.
So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?
Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.
Daenerys doesn't love you.
My love for her is UNCONDITIONAL......
:)
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Because he has not done one damn thing this entire season.
It runs in the family....what has Bran ever done? And it appears Season 8 is a break for Sansa too, except her disdainful looks always given to sweet Dany, who by the way, helped you keep your home intact, not to mention your lives.
LOL. How are you not a 7th grade girl?
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In comment 14446102 montanagiant said:
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Because he has not done one damn thing this entire season.
It runs in the family....what has Bran ever done? And it appears Season 8 is a break for Sansa too, except her disdainful looks always given to sweet Dany, who by the way, helped you keep your home intact, not to mention your lives.
LOL. How are you not a 7th grade girl?
Who said she's not?
I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.
The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.
Yes, I called you obtuse.
The old nature vs nurture argument lives on....
You seem to assume there is such thing as a suicide gene that can be passed on genetically. Yet, you have no evidence to support that (again).
Why can’t you accept the fact that some people get overwhelmed with their circumstances and don’t have the necessary support or strength of mind/heart to fight off those sudden urges?
No, we have to call it genetic and put the blame on grandpa instead.
Let me be clear here, what you and Varys want to call a mad gene I prefer to call it someone who was overwhelmed by everything around her and made a bad call. Calling it genetics in a way absolves the perpetrator.
Do you believe a murder gene can also be passed down genetically?
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In comment 14446102 montanagiant said:
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Because he has not done one damn thing this entire season.
It runs in the family....what has Bran ever done? And it appears Season 8 is a break for Sansa too, except her disdainful looks always given to sweet Dany, who by the way, helped you keep your home intact, not to mention your lives.
LOL. How are you not a 7th grade girl?
That response added nothing to the dialog. I hope you feel better though, maybe you are having a bad day.
Just like those with the BRCA gene are at higher risk for breast cancer.
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In comment 14446103 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 14446093 Essex said:
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it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.
Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.
How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.
So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?
Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.
Daenerys doesn't love you.
My love for her is UNCONDITIONAL......
:)
Ok, now I'm convinced 5Bowls is just trolling here. Sweet poor Dany, LOL
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are you intentionally obtuse or just slow-witted?
I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.
The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.
Yes, I called you obtuse.
The old nature vs nurture argument lives on....
You seem to assume there is such thing as a suicide gene that can be passed on genetically. Yet, you have no evidence to support that (again).
Why can’t you accept the fact that some people get overwhelmed with their circumstances and don’t have the necessary support or strength of mind/heart to fight off those sudden urges?
No, we have to call it genetic and put the blame on grandpa instead.
Let me be clear here, what you and Varys want to call a mad gene I prefer to call it someone who was overwhelmed by everything around her and made a bad call. Calling it genetics in a way absolves the perpetrator.
Do you believe a murder gene can also be passed down genetically?
You have to be trolling at this point. You suck the life out of hockey threads, now you're sucking the life out of Game of Thrones. You seem to lead a joyless life. I'd feel sorry for you if I felt like you weren't doing it on purpose.
let's recap.
You said, "There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too? "
And I replied
If it's genetic, then very likely.
that means IF it is genetic. IF. IF IF
meaning I have no fucking idea if it is genetic or not, so no I offer no evidence that it is, I assumed nothing. But IF (look up what the word means) IF it is then you possibly have a chance to be impacted by it IF it is passed down to you.
No idea how you're not laughing somewhere in a cube in some shitty tech company laughing your ass off that people respond to you.
this has to be a joke, you cannot be a real person, typing real thoughts, from a real human brain.
Spot on.
If you want to believe she torched that city because of her MAD GENE, fine by me. It seems like that is what the writers are hoping you would do. Maybe that is all there is.
But Some of us think that line of thinking is shallow and not warranted under the circumstances given. Notice ......when and why did she snap? Did this just happen without any extenuating circumstances? If there weren’t any extenuating circumstances, then I agree, That would lend itself more to a genetic disease being passed.
But it seems to me Dany was under IMMENSE PRESSURE on so many levels, which includes losing all of the people she loves and who love and support her. I don’t believe this supports a mad gene theory. That seems to me to be an easy way out to explain this sudden irrational behavior that to the best of my knowledge, she has not exhibited before this. (Killing poor innocent nobodies.)
Again, everything was just too easy and too sudden and shoved on us to accept.....many of us feel the show let us down. We can all agree to,disagree.
So, like I have said, those like myself who are disappointed believe the show is ending with a rush to get this season over with and are not used to seeing this mediocrity in its writing. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this position and some people love this season just as much as season 1-7. I’m happy for them and it is not my intention to talk them out of their thinking.
To each their own.
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In comment 14446012 pjcas18 said:
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are you intentionally obtuse or just slow-witted?
I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.
The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.
Yes, I called you obtuse.
The old nature vs nurture argument lives on....
You seem to assume there is such thing as a suicide gene that can be passed on genetically. Yet, you have no evidence to support that (again).
Why can’t you accept the fact that some people get overwhelmed with their circumstances and don’t have the necessary support or strength of mind/heart to fight off those sudden urges?
No, we have to call it genetic and put the blame on grandpa instead.
Let me be clear here, what you and Varys want to call a mad gene I prefer to call it someone who was overwhelmed by everything around her and made a bad call. Calling it genetics in a way absolves the perpetrator.
Do you believe a murder gene can also be passed down genetically?
You have to be trolling at this point. You suck the life out of hockey threads, now you're sucking the life out of Game of Thrones. You seem to lead a joyless life. I'd feel sorry for you if I felt like you weren't doing it on purpose.
let's recap.
You said, "There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too? "
And I replied
If it's genetic, then very likely.
that means IF it is genetic. IF. IF IF
meaning I have no fucking idea if it is genetic or not, so no I offer no evidence that it is, I assumed nothing. But IF (look up what the word means) IF it is then you possibly have a chance to be impacted by it IF it is passed down to you.
No idea how you're not laughing somewhere in a cube in some shitty tech company laughing your ass off that people respond to you.
this has to be a joke, you cannot be a real person, typing real thoughts, from a real human brain.
Pj maybe you should disengage and not respond to my posts. Oh but wait, you have to have the last word, don’t you? Sigh....
Maybe fair maybe not, any of us can only have our own opinions. Mine is that each season 1-6 was either a 9 or a 10. Each had all time great episodes and while some episodes were slower than others and some scenes here and there critiqued the whole of those 60 episodes was far and away the best show I’ve ever seen.
Season 7 hovered I would say was more like a 7 or an 8, with the biggest criticism being the ridiculously contrived decision to go north to win over Cersei. In a 6 episode season that was the entire back half storyline. I was willing to chalk it up to the apparent necessity to get the night king a dragon and setup this season a certain way. This final season has been even worse than s7 imo bc of how undercooked the resolution with the white walkers/bran has been. Both battle episodes were excellent technically but the story hasn’t lived up. Bill2’s comment that michael Bay would be proud is dead on, although they’ve probably done the action better than him too. Maybe they will stick the landing in the final episode and tie up all loose ends well, but the whole of these last 2 seasons to me is on a very different level than the first 6. A great finale could narrow that gap a little bit or deepen it even wider.
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In comment 14446104 Motley Two said:
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In comment 14446103 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 14446093 Essex said:
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it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.
Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.
How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.
So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?
Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.
Daenerys doesn't love you.
My love for her is UNCONDITIONAL......
:)
Ok, now I'm convinced 5Bowls is just trolling here. Sweet poor Dany, LOL
I am merely showing a perspective that appears to be shared by many other people seeing how these last two episodes have received 6 something ratings on IMDB when normally GOT episodes receives 9 something.
I have said many times, it is fine by me if you think this season is great, you love the writing, and it is everything you were hoping for.
My thinking is different. By the way, I have given the past two episodes an 8 and a 9 on IMDB, so it’s not like I haven’t enjoyed them in some ways. I am merely showing why I believe this season is my least favorite and how it has let me down. Apparently some here think we should all be of one voice and lift our cups to the mad gene theory and go to bed peacefully without any concerns with what we have seen.
I’ve stated my concerns and what has disappointed me, that is all. I didn’t write the book or the script for tv, but just like after every Giant game, I become a critic of what I’m watching.
Link - ( New Window )
This is very plausible.
So you agree, the mad gene theory makes no sense then.....
link - ( New Window )
People think the back story for Mad Queen was weak, but are OK with 'Evil Bran'? There's been nothing to indicate Bran is evil other than some wild fan theories that he really is the NK.
If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.
If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.
Absolutely agree.
1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.
2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.
3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.
4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.
Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1
My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.
1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.
2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.
3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.
4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.
Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1
My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.
Super original predictions. You read /r/Freefolk too?
• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)
• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”
And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.
She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.
It's possible to quibble over the relevance of specific items listed. But the show has displayed time and time again that Dany had a thirst for vengeance and that she would do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/ - ( New Window )
"This episode was my favorite in years, perhaps in the entire series, for a specific reason: I think it did an incredible job at subverting something that many works of fiction have been guilty of doing for so long that most audiences don't even notice it anymore."
TL;DR: The despicable behavior and general horror we saw in Episode 5 is what warfare and conflict actually looks like, and the warfare and behavior we've seen in prior seasons only seems tamer because we've only seen it from the perspective of the main characters, who are all nobility or otherwise sheltered. This episode did a great job of challenging the ubiquitous misconceptions of warfare in media that mask the evils that arise when you ask people to kill other people on a large scale.
This show has always needed to decide what details to keep from the books and what parts to throw away. It needs to do this for time and budget limitations. As a result, we don't get to see many of the story's main events from the perspective of anyone that's not a main character. It's easy to forget this, but the main characters are all nobility or are servants of nobility, and they DO NOT represent the general population. As a result, a huge theme of the books that show viewers don't get to see is how fucking horrible and cruel the world is, and in particular warfare is, for anyone that's not wealthy, powerful or otherwise protected.
Let me clarify; there is a disingenuous notion in most portrayals of warfare in which the biggest tragedy that can come out of a war is thought to be the 'good guys' dying, the 'bad guys' living to be bad again, and the 'objectively and morally wrong side' prevailing in carrying out their evil plan. I think this idea is a result of the narrative built around WWII, which popularized the idea of 'fighting a war to destroy an evil worse than the war itself'. This good-vs-evil view of war was an exception, not a norm; in most wars throughout history, the adversary was not as cartoonishly evil as the Nazis, and the cause was not as obviously noble as 'fighting for freedom and the lives of others'. In the medieval to early-modern period of Europe which the show is based off of, the average conflict usually amounted to something like, "This lord does not recognize me, the nephew of the king, as the rightful heir; I will pay my soldiers above-peasant wages to kill his soldiers for me so I can secure the throne." Not quite as noble, yes, but this kind of petty dispute was the cause of the majority of conflicts in Europe and elsewhere for centuries: some powerful person wanted more power, so they went after it.
I think that the show up to this point has taken advantage of the fact that we, the audience, are very used to the WWII-style 'good-vs-evil' portrayal of warfare that popular media has sold to us. GoT consistently set up the Starks and their associates as 'good' and the Lannisters and their associates as 'evil', with some exceptions. In reality, the net good done by the Starks and the net evil done by the Lannisters are not all that different. If it seems that the Lannisters are worse than the Starks, then it's probably because you are only paying attention to what is said and done by/to the main characters, who are all nobility or serve nobility. In reality, the nobility that start these wars, based on succession and family feuds, are doing so for selfish reasons that hurt the majority of Westerosi people. To solidify this point, consider the Stark's role in the War of the Five Kings.
In the War of the Five Kings, we are very much led to believe that Robb Stark is righteous in his cause of rebelling against the Lannisters because of the injustices done to the Starks and the cruel nature of the Lannisters as main characters (Jaime, Cersei and Tywin). But how sure are you of this characterization? Is it a fact that Robb was the 'good guy'? Did he do anything that actually made the world a better place? Or...maybe you only find yourself rooting for him because you liked what came out of his mouth more than Joffrey and you felt bad for what happened to Ned? Consider for a moment the effects of his rebellion which almost certainly happened, but that we weren't shown because the show wanted us to see noble speeches and bannermen celebrating victories instead.
We didn't get to see his soldiers stealing food and grain from poor families preparing for the winter. We didn't get to see his soldiers killing and maiming civilians caught in the crossfire. We didn't get to see all the women his soldiers came across that were raped. We didn't get to see the children that were killed for sport or fun. We didn't get to see the citizens of the North who were executed because they didn't want to fight and die for Robb's cause. These are the nasty features common to every war ever fought by humanity, and they universally occur in any situation where you get a lot of people under stress who are told that killing is good and the right thing to do. If you hadn't thought about this because it wasn't portrayed, I don't blame you; these realities are constantly glossed over in historical adaptations and movies because we like to root for the good guy more than accept the fact that far more people end up losing in a war than winning.
Maybe the Starks weren't good, you say, but the Lannisters were definitely worse, right? Let me ask another question; what did the Lannisters do that made the realities of warfare that the Starks brought to Westeros (rape, murder, suffering etc.) worth it? Did they...commit genocide? Did they starve their population? Did they indiscriminately kill their citizens? No, they didn't. They didn't actually do any of that, and any acts of cruelty they committed against innocents prior to Robb's rebellion had been done by plenty of other houses. In all honesty, the Lannisters were as good as any other house; the kept their people safe and fed. The truth about the Stark rebellion is that we only cared about Robb winning because we were constantly shown what a victory meant for him, his family, and his loved ones. We liked Robb the character, so we automatically liked his rebellion without considering what it was actually doing to the world. So when he was killed alongside his mother and banner men, it was a huge deal to us. It was the worst thing imaginable at the time. And the Lannisters became evil in our eyes.
This nobility-first portrayal of war, the 'good guy vs bad guy' nature of the conflicts in the show, even the notion that a person who appears to be good can't commit acts of evil--they are all lies. It's just not how war works, and it's not how people work. The nobility may have the luxury of talking about why their conflict is right, why their enemy is evil, and why they are the one who truly cares about the people....but this ignores the fact that warfare is unceremoniously cruel and unfair for the average person, no matter what the intentions behind it are. For every injustice done to the Stark nobility, multiply that by a thousand for the people who's lives were destroyed by the war that the Stark nobility launched, and realize that they get no justice and no satisfaction knowing which lord was 'good' or 'bad'. They are caught in the middle of a horrible machine and there's nothing they can do about it.
Now, onto the episode. I absolutely loved this new episode because it totally flew in the face of this convention, and it appears that a lot of the audience is having a hard time grasping that what we just saw actually happened. There were many, many moments that shredded up all the things in the show that we had grown comfortable with when we were only watching nobility fight between each other or armies fight against the dead. Among these moments were:
-The absolute horrors done to civilians caught in the battle that up until this point we haven't really seen, but almost certainly occurred;
-The supposedly 'kind and decent' Northerners killing and raping right alongside the Dothraki, which again has probably been occurring a lot but we just haven't been shown;
-Gray Worm having zero qualms about killing surrendering Lannisters because guess what, it's extremely common for soldiers who lose friends and loved ones to the enemy to take out their rage by massacring enemy prisoners;
-Denearys taking this to the extreme and completely destroying the stronghold of her enemies, despite the civilian casualties, and being completely unfazed by anyone's death besides 'her side' (those she brought over from Essos);
-Jaime totally abandoning any notions of righteousness after trying to convince himself he was good and feeling no real change in his own character after doing the 'right thing' for once in his life;
-Jon being totally flummoxed by the fact that the war he was fighting did not live up to any of the high ideals and platitudes he constantly spouted when he was in a position to do so;
-The fact that this was one of the first battles in the series that was not a 'pitched' battle (i.e., one army meets another in the field), which were EXCEEDINGLY rare in medieval European warfare;
-The fact that Arya is not an unstoppable badass as she has been shown when all she had to do was assassinate cartoonishly evil people, and in fact she's just as scared of a pointless death as anyone, but this is literally the first time she's ever had to deal with the fact that she might not die fighting for something greater than herself- which is exactly how all the people having to deal with these battles have felt the entire series.
-The fact that Denearys totally fucking snaps and lets the power go to her head once she realizes that her entire life's work might have been compromised by people she trusted working against her. This lack of mercy when trying to secure one's position is the status quo for anyone with a great amount of power in the real world, but we all pretended that Dany was going to be different.
Overall, these events were awesome, and I'm so glad that the show finally gave us a taste of what all the nobility's talk of honor, justice, and so on amounts to when it comes to the reality of warfare.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7bfl/spoilers_this_episode_was_my_favorite_in_years/ - ( New Window )
If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.
I think this is spot on as well
For me personally, I hate that the show is ending seeming so rushed and that just gets magnified so much when I think about how so many characters don't even get an ending that makes sense.
Quote:
• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)
• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”
And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.
She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.
It's possible to quibble over the relevance of specific items listed. But the show has displayed time and time again that Dany had a thirst for vengeance and that she would do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her. https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/ - ( New Window )
Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...
1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North
2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"
3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.
There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.
The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.
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I have a few predictions:
1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.
2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.
3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.
4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.
Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1
My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.
Super original predictions. You read /r/Freefolk too?
I don’t know who freedolk are. I don’t read or have any interest on hearing other people’s thoughts except in a dialog. But I realize saying Jon kills Dany is not that shocking or even saying Arya killing Dany is rather shocking, or original.
Saying Jon doesn’t want to rule is not to shocking either since he has said this how many times? He is not very politically minded and if he does kill Dany I would imagine this will not sit well with him emotionally. He knows he and Winterfell would not be around had Dany not intervened and came to their aid.
Actually, there isn’t much too shocking left. It seems the Starks are the heroes and the Lannister’s and Targaryens are the bad guys.
Btw, Do you have anything useful to add to this conversation or any intelligent response to my post?
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!
if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.
Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...
1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North
2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"
3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.
There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.
The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.
When she chained her dragons, she was already in control. She had taken over the city (IIRC) and she did so to keep the people on her side.
I think it shows the duality of her character. I think she had some good intentions of wanting to be a just Queen and breaker of chains, but it came with an unquenchable desire for the throne and a willingness to do horrible things to go it. I also think her benevolence was also a bit of a vanity project. She wanted it, so long as it didn't interfere with her being the ruler. She was obsessed with the throne to the point that one has to wonder whether her benevolent notions were genuine. Anyone so obsessed with gaining power is thinking primarily about that power.
Also, just because the bells rang, it doesn't mean that she accomplished her goal. As far as Dany knows, the bells only signify that Kings Landing surrendered because that is what Tyrion told her.
But Tyrion has also been on a streak of giving bad advice to Dany. More specifically, Tyrion has been on a streak of underestimating the callousness or indifference of his sister. For all Dany knows, Cersei ringing the bells could be another trap or deceit.
Plus, Dany may have taken out the armies in Kings Landing, but she hadn't "won" yet. The people in KL don't know her-- she's just a foreign usurper who is the daughter of the Mad King that slaughtered the city before. So why would they bow to her as their Queen?
And prior episodes and Dany's own words acknowledged that the people in the North didn't have an allegiance to her, but rather to Jon. Plus, Jon had a clearly better claim to the throne than she did.
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!
if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.
You have been trolling this whole thread. I'm glad you stopped reading.
This would require Bran to be interesting.
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I quit reading your Reddit list when I read this....
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!
if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.
You have been trolling this whole thread. I'm glad you stopped reading.
Some here may not know what the word trolling means so let me help you
: to antagonize (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content
Most of my comments have been made to support a position some take issue to regarding the quality of the writing this season. I’m sorry some here don’t like it when people disagree. But you really need to realize your opinion isn’t etched in stone. Besides there are always two sides to every coin. And sometimes there may not be a right and wrong opinion.
Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...
1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North
2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"
3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.
There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.
The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.
Good post. Her end point in this series was far from locked in any certain way, but the path they've taken her on the past 2 seasons since setting sail for Westeros has been at best muddled. In a lot of ways it's the path they put her on by proxy of Tyrion since she basically listened to him up until the moment of the bells - which as you mentioned was the moment she finally had what she wanted (iron throne). It would have made more sense for her to break bad killing Jon since he was perhaps the last remaining genuine threat than massacring the people of KL who to that point were literally silent bystanders.
And that's where none of the alternating explanations of "she just went crazy" and "she needed the love of the people" and "she was always blood thirsty for the iron throne" square with what's happened before. She had been isolated and desperate before time and again without going crazy. She had ruled over people who didn't love her (Mereen) and she went out of her way to not kill them (chaining the dragons, closing the fighting pits). She had passed on earlier chances to go for the iron throne in favor of liberating the oppressed. Killing the oppressed at the moment she'd won the iron throne just seems a bridge too far when taking vengeance against Cersei was right there as an alternative option. It also almost gave her time to get to the same secret passages Tyrion used to escape KL under the red keep.
Alan Sepinwall has been one of the better TV commentators going back to working at the star ledger during the sopranos, his take is spot on IMO.
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Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...
1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North
2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"
3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.
There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.
The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.
Good post. Her end point in this series was far from locked in any certain way, but the path they've taken her on the past 2 seasons since setting sail for Westeros has been at best muddled. In a lot of ways it's the path they put her on by proxy of Tyrion since she basically listened to him up until the moment of the bells - which as you mentioned was the moment she finally had what she wanted (iron throne). It would have made more sense for her to break bad killing Jon since he was perhaps the last remaining genuine threat than massacring the people of KL who to that point were literally silent bystanders.
And that's where none of the alternating explanations of "she just went crazy" and "she needed the love of the people" and "she was always blood thirsty for the iron throne" square with what's happened before. She had been isolated and desperate before time and again without going crazy. She had ruled over people who didn't love her (Mereen) and she went out of her way to not kill them (chaining the dragons, closing the fighting pits). She had passed on earlier chances to go for the iron throne in favor of liberating the oppressed. Killing the oppressed at the moment she'd won the iron throne just seems a bridge too far when taking vengeance against Cersei was right there as an alternative option. It also almost gave her time to get to the same secret passages Tyrion used to escape KL under the red keep.
Alan Sepinwall has been one of the better TV commentators going back to working at the star ledger during the sopranos, his take is spot on IMO.
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Dany’s descent into genocidal madness didn’t exactly come out of nowhere. Throughout her travels across Essos, her preferred solution to problems was to burn them and all the people associated with them. She’s impetuous, narcissistic and one of the last members of a bloodline with a history of doing things exactly like what she did to King’s Landing. But the manner in which it played out this season felt sloppy in the way these last few seasons have often been. It’s not just about characters like Euron and Bronn and Jaime surviving point-blank dragon-fire attacks, or Varys (RIP) being able to teleport across continents. It’s that Benioff and Weiss have been a lot less diligent at getting the characters — and the Mother of Dragons in particular — to the planned endpoint. They’ve told us where this is going, but they haven’t really shown the work necessary to bring her from “erratic but ultimately well-meaning” to “will roast thousands of innocent civilians alive just because she feels like it.” A version where she ignored the bells and flew Drogon straight through Cersei’s balcony would have felt of a piece with where the story had taken us to this point. What she did instead required at least another half of a regular-length GoT season to feel earned. But the showrunners needed their queen to get mad in a hurry, and so she did.
You (and Sepinwall) have it exactly right IMO
Again I think that’s a misinterpretation. They rushed everything, period. Only an oblivious person didn’t see Danys actions coming, but that doesn’t mean it was executed well.
It’s really as simple as that for me. I just don’t think the condensed seasons did this story any favors.
Also, I asked earlier but what’s the difference between Dany and so many other awful rulers who’ve murdered a ton of people? I don’t really think “madness” is how I’d describe her at all. If that word wasn’t used to describe Aerys we’d just be calling her a terrible person. It’s almost as over used as “winter is coming” and then not mattering anymore.
Bad writing.
Having him take Briennes virginity after fighting the Night King and white walkers... only for him to die with Cersei? I get what they were going for but it was the wrong move, especially after the Brienne thing.
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!
if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.
Yeah, I'd say that list has some pretty damn willful misinterpretations.
See the problem though is the motivations are entirely different. The motivation is rejection by the common people due to who your father is for someone else whom they choose because of who they think his father is. They can't do that in the show because none of this is even remotely the same with Cersei.
This is the butterfly effect of making drastic changes that GRRM warned about. It's why Dany's actions in 805 seem somewhat off and out of place to people. Because the way GRRM outlined it to them, they just could never pull off due to earlier creative decisions they made.
One aspect of Dany-going-utterly-murderous that has bothered me is how the show presents "motivation" that doesn't stand up to scrutiny (much like how it presented objections to the sensible way to address Varys' concerns that also didn't stand up to scrutiny). For instance, we're to accept that Dany observed how Jon was regarded by his people, lamented that she wasn't regarded in the same way, and must therefore choose fear. Of course Jon would be regarded that way by his people after all he'd done for them, after he'd united so many of them, defeated Ramsay, after the atrocities and indignities faced by the Starks, etc. And somehow Dany is supposed to turn mass-homicidal towards surrendering innocents at first opportunity because it dawned on her that she didn't engender that following upon arrival?
See the problem though is the motivations are entirely different. The motivation is rejection by the common people due to who your father is for someone else whom they choose because of who they think his father is. They can't do that in the show because none of this is even remotely the same with Cersei.
This is the butterfly effect of making drastic changes that GRRM warned about. It's why Dany's actions in 805 seem somewhat off and out of place to people. Because the way GRRM outlined it to them, they just could never pull off due to earlier creative decisions they made.
Eh- that character was excluded early on and I believe that plot line is a dead end...if he played such a major role I can’t see them excluding him so early.
GoT writers disappointed with decline in fan quality - ( New Window )
What’s funny is I can see this almost being true.
idk I thought YG seemed better positioned to have the support of westeros ahead of Dany - but they basically just merged that aspect into Jon. though even in the books I suppose the fact that Dany + Jon were in it from the beginning likely puts them ahead of YG in the importance to how the story ends.
Yes I was referring to him. I also think they gave Dany a Jon Connington plot of all things. It makes perfect sense to me that Connington would be triggered by bells given his presence in the Battle of the Bells in Robert's Rebellion. I have no idea why they would do this in the show though and that's why it seems so ridiculous that Dany suddenly snaps when she hears bells. It makes no sense for her at all, but makes perfect sense for Connington to snap. Especially considering Connington admires what Tywin did in sacking King's Landing and thinks that's the way to go moving forward. If correct, giving her that Connington plot is beyond ridiculous and was just asking for people to be confused.
Cersei getting the Golden Company in the show and the outright destruction of them in 805 was what made me think there's no doubt this is a substitute for YG vs Dany in the books. She'll kill him and destroy the Golden Company and if I had to guess will lose control over her impulses and go to far when attacking leading to something similar to what happened in 805.
Cersei getting the Golden Company in the show and the outright destruction of them in 805 was what made me think there's no doubt this is a substitute for YG vs Dany in the books. She'll kill him and destroy the Golden Company and if I had to guess will lose control over her impulses and go to far when attacking leading to something similar to what happened in 805.
That makes sense - and also makes much more sense if YG is the 3rd betrayal whom the people rally around instead of her.