that fans hated Accorsi for a while. In 2007, a lot of folks gave Reese the credit for the roster. As time turned against Reese, the narrative changed to Accorsi building the roster and Reese riding on his coattails.
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
But, in any case, the Giants weren't a total disaster for almost a decade prior to that season. They were 10-6 and in the playoffs the year before and had played in a Super Bowl three seasons before.
This is not remotely the same situation.
RE: What you're seeing right now is the combination of.... Â
What am I saying - of course not. When they suck ass again, it'll be "Well, you have to give him another year, three years isn't enough time". And so on, and so on.
RE: We'll have our answer next season, won't we? Â
What am I saying - of course not. When they suck ass again, it'll be "Well, you have to give him another year, three years isn't enough time". And so on, and so on.
If they don't improve then I agree Gettleman will be on the hot seat.
an eli revenge tour, that likes the bottom 3 roster in the nfl that needs 8 starters still, and thought the team would go 10-6... is lecturing us about why the process that produced the above is fine, and why change is bad. cool stuff.
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
an eli revenge tour, that likes the bottom 3 roster in the nfl that needs 8 starters still, and thought the team would go 10-6... is lecturing us about why the process that produced the above is fine, and why change is bad. cool stuff.
none of which has anything to do with the subject at hand.
We had made the playoffs in 2000 and 2002. The roster was not entirely devoid of veteran talent the way it is now. (Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Hilliard, Hamilton, Shockey, Diehl, Shaun Williams, Will Allen)
RE: RE: So you hear a lot of buzzwords/phrases.... Â
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
And it helps pretentious little snots like yourself feel superior.
And all that data helps
RE: RE: We'll have our answer next season, won't we? Â
What am I saying - of course not. When they suck ass again, it'll be "Well, you have to give him another year, three years isn't enough time". And so on, and so on.
If they don't improve then I agree Gettleman will be on the hot seat.
The Giants can only improve. The odds are they will win more than 4 games next year...the league is set up to help them do that. The question is whether Gettleman as GM best equips them to be a contending team going forward: thus far the answer to that can only be an unequivocal 'no'. What's scary is that the irrelevant wins over Miami and Washington probably saved him. I don't know that he'd be back at 2-14, which goes to show how fucked up Mara's decision making is.
But hey...for all the guys that get pissy about me being negative, I'm actually feeling good about what I'm reading regarding a willingness to give Rhule autonomy. Maybe Mara has finally woken up. Hopefully this is what the Giants' operation looks like a month from now...
I'll leave you to guess which is Rhule and which is Gettleman.
I honestly don't recall many people calling for Accorsi to be fired either. There probably were a few, but most of the commentary after Fassel was fired was who the next head coach should be (and that began before the seeason ended because it was announced prior to the last game).
RE: RE: RE: So you hear a lot of buzzwords/phrases.... Â
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
And it helps pretentious little snots like yourself feel superior.
And all that data helps
Pretentious little snot? Ouch you really hurt me. I'm not superior to anyone on this board and have never said I was.
I did however spend four years supplying top Division I college programs with data and analytics, sat in meetings with NFL teams about developing a machine learning platform to sell to NFL teams and worked for a company that came close to brokering a partnership deal with PFF, I know more about the subject than some on this board.
a definition was forged with Accorsi and predecessors prior that we would be in the SB often enough. That level of excellence died around 2011 and passing of Wellington. No we have folks in charge that do not know what to do. Why do you think they keep renting Accorsi for? But name dropping is not the same as working here on a daily basis.
....but yes there were those that thought we needed a clean slate and someone that was more football and less PR.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
....but yes there were those that thought we needed a clean slate and someone that was more football and less PR.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
Jeff Hatch - omg I remember that...wonder if Gettleman selected him.
....but yes there were those that thought we needed a clean slate and someone that was more football and less PR.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
This is pretty accurate, from my memory.
There were complaints, but definitely "not like now". There weren't riots in the streets over it. Nobody wanted Accorsi's head on a stick.
....but yes there were those that thought we needed a clean slate and someone that was more football and less PR.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
Jeff Hatch - omg I remember that...wonder if Gettleman selected him.
That dude is in big trouble now- drug trafficking.
I thought Accorsi was a bigger problem than Fassel. Â
Shows how much I know. But to me, his handling of the offensive line after SB XXXV was grounds for dismissal. Seriously, trying to squeeze another year out of that bunch of geezers? And after finally moving on from Lomas Brown and Glenn Parker, he adopted the “one left tackle and four warm bodies” recipe, with Luke Petitgout as the key ingredient. He got lucky for a year with Seubert, until Richie’s leg imploded, but the others? Bober? Whittle? Rosenthal? Hatch? Allen? Hopkins? All penciled in as STARTERS during Fassel’s last two camps.
It was worse following 2006 when the BBI nitwits screamed... Â
those two didn't work well together. Accorsi has claimed that Fassel had no vision for the team, Fassel has claimed that Accorsi hamstrung him with bad player choices.
It's clear that Accorsi and Coughlin worked very well together and managed to put together a very strong roster. It would be nice for the next coach to have that strong a working relationship with the GM.
is people so emotionally invested in being correct that they will jump through flaming hoops to believe only what supports what they already thing.
Yup. I’ve defended DG to some extent but I’d drag him to Florida by hand if it ensured we’d win again. Same with Eli who I also defended, to some extent.
I just want to win.
'believe only what supports what they already think' Â
When it comes to Mara, DG and how you build a winning organization I preach one thing. Patience. Firing your GM that you handed a major rebuild after two years is just dumb. I'll take that to the grave.
That said I freely acknowledge DG has made mistakes. Solder/Ogletree deals are bad. He's also had successes. Jones and Slayton picks are good. Golden signing was a real bargain for ten sacks. OBJ trade was smart. Bethea and Martin signings were dumb. Stewart signing was bad.
He's also had to be creative with minimal cap resources so that explains some of the FA misses but not all of them. And some of the misses were just short term stings while other have longer and tougher ramifications.
I hope that illustrates I'm aware of both sides of the argument.
Bottom line we hired the man give him a fair chance to see it through. Two years is not that.
These guys ALL eventually falter and outlive their usefulness.
Despite 2 SBs, George Young was a DISASTER in the era of Free Agency. He passed on Reggie White, chose Handley over Belichick, spent a #1 on Dave Brown, took a half blind pass rusher instead of Marvin Harrison or even Terry Glenn.
Accorsi was WAY better than Young. Reese started strong and got SB 46. Jury is still out on Gettleman despite what people here think. He may get this ship turned around, or he may not, but we can't answer that question today.
I honestly don't recall many people calling for Accorsi to be fired either. There probably were a few, but most of the commentary after Fassel was fired was who the next head coach should be (and that began before the seeason ended because it was announced prior to the last game).
Of course not - and it's not because in 16 years fans have become magically less patient. That Giants team had a good bit of talent on that roster. They had managed to go to a SB in 2000, and had an unfortunate playoff meltdown in 2002. 2003 was an injury filled campaign where the wheels finally fell off.
The situation is not comparable to now in almost any way. That team was inconsistent but didn't crater until the injuries set in. This team just went 9-23 over the past two years.
but I thought Accorsi should go. The drafting was terrible while Fassel was here. The Delvin Joyce UDFAs would out perform draft picks. I think there was a perfect storm of Accorsi/Coughlin/Reese which resulted in the team killing the draft from 2004 to 2007 which led to Championships. 2003 was a good draft too. They changed something with player evaluations around then.
It was only about who the next head coach would be.
Monkey see, monkey do. That's what is happening here.
Monkey see, monkey do. That's what is happening here.
So true, there is a generational shift on this younger fans see the league through the lens of Fantasy/Madden. Data is not judgement or knowledge.
Says Johnny 10-6
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Coughlin was the prohibitive replacement.
I recall conversation about the amount of injuries under Fassel and how Coughlin thought he could coach down injuries. Which got very strange...
Monkey see, monkey do. That's what is happening here.
This is probably the best post I have seen here in weeks
This is not remotely the same situation.
Monkey see, monkey do. That's what is happening here.
Lots of oversimplifying here. DG has been far from perfect and deserves the criticism.
If they don't improve then I agree Gettleman will be on the hot seat.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
none of which has anything to do with the subject at hand.
Ditto defense.
3 horrible swings and misses by DG in 2 short years.
You can absolutely see why Mara is open to givng Rhule power.
Monkey see, monkey do. That's what is happening here.
Quote:
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
And it helps pretentious little snots like yourself feel superior.
And all that data helps
Quote:
What am I saying - of course not. When they suck ass again, it'll be "Well, you have to give him another year, three years isn't enough time". And so on, and so on.
If they don't improve then I agree Gettleman will be on the hot seat.
The Giants can only improve. The odds are they will win more than 4 games next year...the league is set up to help them do that. The question is whether Gettleman as GM best equips them to be a contending team going forward: thus far the answer to that can only be an unequivocal 'no'. What's scary is that the irrelevant wins over Miami and Washington probably saved him. I don't know that he'd be back at 2-14, which goes to show how fucked up Mara's decision making is.
But hey...for all the guys that get pissy about me being negative, I'm actually feeling good about what I'm reading regarding a willingness to give Rhule autonomy. Maybe Mara has finally woken up. Hopefully this is what the Giants' operation looks like a month from now...
I'll leave you to guess which is Rhule and which is Gettleman.
Quote:
In comment 14745455 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"allocation of resources", "position shelf life", lots of talk about managing the salary cap, etc... that fans now think they are smarter than the guys in charge because they read PFF.
But, another Gettleman'ism that still rings true... "When you start thinking like the fans, you're sitting with them".
Uh huh, sure. Maybe it's that fans are more informed than they were 15 years ago because it's easier than every to watch every game, social media has allowed for machine learning and analytics to become more prevalent, and the data is more readily available than ever for smart people to analyze and interpret.
And it helps pretentious little snots like yourself feel superior.
And all that data helps
Pretentious little snot? Ouch you really hurt me. I'm not superior to anyone on this board and have never said I was.
I did however spend four years supplying top Division I college programs with data and analytics, sat in meetings with NFL teams about developing a machine learning platform to sell to NFL teams and worked for a company that came close to brokering a partnership deal with PFF, I know more about the subject than some on this board.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
Jeff Hatch - omg I remember that...wonder if Gettleman selected him.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
This is pretty accurate, from my memory.
There were complaints, but definitely "not like now". There weren't riots in the streets over it. Nobody wanted Accorsi's head on a stick.
Quote:
....but yes there were those that thought we needed a clean slate and someone that was more football and less PR.
A lot of the vets were on the back 9 and might not endure a rebuild. Tiki fumbled to much and couldn’t get tough yards. Dayne was a bust. We had 1 good OL and the unit had been ignored. Drafts had been generally poor and we’d sat out on free agency save for bargain hunting. There was the whole ordeal around him telegraphing the Shockey pick and getting held hostage by Tennessee then forcing the reach for Jeff Hatch.
Jeff Hatch - omg I remember that...wonder if Gettleman selected him.
That dude is in big trouble now- drug trafficking.
It's clear that Accorsi and Coughlin worked very well together and managed to put together a very strong roster. It would be nice for the next coach to have that strong a working relationship with the GM.
Yup. I’ve defended DG to some extent but I’d drag him to Florida by hand if it ensured we’d win again. Same with Eli who I also defended, to some extent.
I just want to win.
That said I freely acknowledge DG has made mistakes. Solder/Ogletree deals are bad. He's also had successes. Jones and Slayton picks are good. Golden signing was a real bargain for ten sacks. OBJ trade was smart. Bethea and Martin signings were dumb. Stewart signing was bad.
He's also had to be creative with minimal cap resources so that explains some of the FA misses but not all of them. And some of the misses were just short term stings while other have longer and tougher ramifications.
I hope that illustrates I'm aware of both sides of the argument.
Bottom line we hired the man give him a fair chance to see it through. Two years is not that.
These guys ALL eventually falter and outlive their usefulness.
Despite 2 SBs, George Young was a DISASTER in the era of Free Agency. He passed on Reggie White, chose Handley over Belichick, spent a #1 on Dave Brown, took a half blind pass rusher instead of Marvin Harrison or even Terry Glenn.
Accorsi was WAY better than Young. Reese started strong and got SB 46. Jury is still out on Gettleman despite what people here think. He may get this ship turned around, or he may not, but we can't answer that question today.
Of course not - and it's not because in 16 years fans have become magically less patient. That Giants team had a good bit of talent on that roster. They had managed to go to a SB in 2000, and had an unfortunate playoff meltdown in 2002. 2003 was an injury filled campaign where the wheels finally fell off.
The situation is not comparable to now in almost any way. That team was inconsistent but didn't crater until the injuries set in. This team just went 9-23 over the past two years.