How does Patrick Mahomes not throw a TD?

Andy Reid is a loser.

.

Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did.

And they pretty much took Hill and Kelce out of the game.

In comment 15146943 Sean said:

Quote:

.

Weird how that works, isn't it?

for most of last year’s Super Bowl, too.

In comment 15146945 allstarjim said:

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And they pretty much took Hill and Kelce out of the game.

Exactly. One you take those two out that team is finished. Their running game is terrible.

In comment 15146944 santacruzom said:

Quote:

Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did.

I think this is more about Terps and his crew constantly saying a great qb doesn't need an oline.

In comment 15146944 santacruzom said:

Quote:

Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did.

The Mara/Gettleman shills like Britt weirdly take victory laps for one offs like this. Comparing Mahomes and DJ right now is like comparing Mike Trout to a double A player. But Britt can pound his chest because mahomes lost in the super bowl with Mike remmers as his LT. But if the Giants suck next year, like they have for the last decade, Britt will have a list of excuses and reasons why Jones and Gettleman deserve another year

In the end zone.

Sucks when your guys don't make the catches they should.

wonder if the britt reid thing cast a cloud over the entire team.

.

when he's running for his life, constantly.

Even superman Mahomes doesn't look too good with a leaky offensive line and under pressure every drop back.
Now he knows what it's like to be Daniel Jones.
And Jones never has all-pro tight ends and wide receivers to work with.
Not to compare Jones and Mahomes but Jones had similar stats in his game vs Tampa as Mahomes had today.
My point is don't give up on Jones until we can evaluate him with better players around him.

especially in the first half. Reid was throwing the ball sideways way too often wasting downs. The team got baited into 2 personal foul penalties. Mahomes was not able to set his feet to throw on most throws and his on the run throws were off. They need to add a top wideout. Then the Chiefs called a timeout to give Brady more time at the end of the first half. I think Reid's sons car accident issue was part of the lack of concentration. They were bad today and should be embarassed.

In comment 15146972 islander1 said:

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when he's running for his life, constantly.

Wow, it sure is, isn't it? I thought great players elevated above sub par o-lines.

In comment 15146953 bceagle05 said:

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for most of last year’s Super Bowl, too.

Stole the MVP from Damien Williams

and finished third in the MVP voting. Why don’t you just say exactly what you want to say?

The overall gameplay seemed very unimaginative for the Chiefs. And I really think the weight of the Britt Reid situation was a factor. That is still a very serious problem for that organization. How can you not lose your focus?

Definitely credit the Bucs, but the Chiefs just didn't seem themselves.

In comment 15146975 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15146972 islander1 said: Quote: when he's running for his life, constantly. Wow, it sure is, isn't it? I thought great players elevated above sub par o-lines.

They do, that's why KC needs to try out Mac Jones or Kyle Trask at QB next year.

In comment 15146973 gregori said:

Quote:

Even superman Mahomes doesn't look too good with a leaky offensive line and under pressure every drop back. Now he knows what it's like to be Daniel Jones. And Jones never has all-pro tight ends and wide receivers to work with. Not to compare Jones and Mahomes but Jones had similar stats in his game vs Tampa as Mahomes had today. My point is don't give up on Jones until we can evaluate him with better players around him.

At least Jones threw touchdowns that game. Mahomes didn’t reach the end zone at all today.

I wish Daniel Jones was mediocre.

In comment 15146981 bw in dc said:

Quote:

The overall gameplay seemed very unimaginative for the Chiefs. And I really think the weight of the Britt Reid situation was a factor. That is still a very serious problem for that organization. How can you not lose your focus? Definitely credit the Bucs, but the Chiefs just didn't seem themselves.

Agreed. A mess and an awful situation for the team and the league. And shame on the team, the NFL and cbs for trying to sneak it in with 3 minutes left when the game was over and a lot of people had tuned out. Reid’s kid better not get a slap on the wrist, especially if the poor kid dies

In comment 15146990 Route 9 said:

Quote:

I wish Daniel Jones was mediocre.

Seriously.

This reads like a middle aged woman posting a passive aggressive shot on Facebook aimed at a certain person or group of people.

Just man up and say what you want to say. Geez.

Quote:

Mina Kimes @minakimes Replying to @minakimes final tally, via @ESPNStatsInfo : Mahomes was pressured on 29/56 dropbacks--the most of any QB in Super Bowl history. Brady was pressured on 4/30--the lowest of his SB career.

On top of that, Mahomes made circus throws that hit his guys in the face. Like this one


https://twitter.com/minakimes/status/1358615570602598401 - ( New Window )

Point blank.

They doubled both Hill and Kelce and got pressure on Mahomes rushing four or, occasionally five.

I never thought the Bucs would win let alone hold the Chiefs to less than 10 points.

Hell, I would have told you that the Bucs would be lucky to hold the Chei7fs to 3 TDS.

It was still a mistake to keep Eli. It was still a mistake to draft Barkley and Jones. The Giants are still a poorly constructed disaster.

The Chiefs made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Aaron Rodgers made it to the NFCC. Josh Allen made it to the AFCC. Lamar Jackson won a playoff game.

The Giants were 6-10, and they're still going nowhere regardless of what happened tonight.

Christ with the passive aggressive garbage.

.

In comment 15146992 Ned In Atlanta said:

Quote:

In comment 15146981 bw in dc said: Quote: The overall gameplay seemed very unimaginative for the Chiefs. And I really think the weight of the Britt Reid situation was a factor. That is still a very serious problem for that organization. How can you not lose your focus? Definitely credit the Bucs, but the Chiefs just didn't seem themselves. Agreed. A mess and an awful situation for the team and the league. And shame on the team, the NFL and cbs for trying to sneak it in with 3 minutes left when the game was over and a lot of people had tuned out. Reid’s kid better not get a slap on the wrist, especially if the poor kid dies

I didn't see any of the pre-game, so I don't know if CBS ever addressed the Britt Reid issue. But it was very poor form by Nance at the end. Do you think he even mentions it if the game is tight and dramatic?

which means Jones is better than Mahomes!!!

Quote:

ESPN Stats & Info @ESPNStatsInfo Patrick Mahomes dropped back to pass 56 times and faced a blitz on just 6 of those dropbacks (11%). Of the 29 pressures he faced Sunday, 27 came against a pass rush of 4 or fewer defenders. That's the 2nd most pressures against 4 or fewer rushers over the last 10 seasons.

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1358627867232509954 - ( New Window )

Deflection.

What’s the actual point being made in this thread?

The lengths to which some fans will go to avoid admitting the Giants' errors is incredible. Mahomes, Rodgers, and Lamar Jackson are literally the last three MVPs, and they've all been brought up as strange examples to justify a misguided understanding of what passes as the Giants' rebuilding plan.

In comment 15147019 christian said:

Quote:

What’s the actual point being made in this thread?

That it's better not to have a great QB because they don't deliver 100% of the time.

Ben McAdoo wanted to draft him.

In comment 15146980 bceagle05 said:

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and finished third in the MVP voting. Why don’t you just say exactly what you want to say?

Their Oline deteriorated over the last few weeks due to injuries.

In comment 15147019 christian said:

Quote:

What’s the actual point being made in this thread?

The actual point in some convoluted way is that everything is ok with the Giants.

How that works I don't know, but consider the source.

...those passes were contested. They were NOT easy catches.

Mahomes made some bad decisions in his scrambling tonight - yes he's not 100% and the OL sucked big time - but he forced himself to make some throws that really had a low percentage of hitting by going backwards.........

In comment 15147001 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

Quote: Mina Kimes @minakimes Replying to @minakimes final tally, via @ESPNStatsInfo : Mahomes was pressured on 29/56 dropbacks--the most of any QB in Super Bowl history. Brady was pressured on 4/30--the lowest of his SB career. On top of that, Mahomes made circus throws that hit his guys in the face. Like this one https://twitter.com/minakimes/status/1358615570602598401 - ( New Window )

So what? He lost and his team scored 9 points. I've been told here that the only thing that matters is if you win. He didn't help his team win so he must suck.

Perhaps his mind was on other things...obviously. But this was awful. Made no real adjustments, just kept doing the same thing even though it wasn't working, and just seemed off and lost.

In comment 15147040 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147001 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: Quote: Mina Kimes @minakimes Replying to @minakimes final tally, via @ESPNStatsInfo : Mahomes was pressured on 29/56 dropbacks--the most of any QB in Super Bowl history. Brady was pressured on 4/30--the lowest of his SB career. On top of that, Mahomes made circus throws that hit his guys in the face. Like this one https://twitter.com/minakimes/status/1358615570602598401 - ( New Window ) So what? He lost and his team scored 9 points. I've been told here that the only thing that matters is if you win. He didn't help his team win so he must suck.

Yeah... Unfortunately, I didn't write the rules, but that's what they are....

In comment 15146957 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15146944 santacruzom said: Quote: Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did. I think this is more about Terps and his crew constantly saying a great qb doesn't need an oline.

Do they say something that extreme? Or do they just say that a really good QB can perform better without a really oline than a lesser QB can?

In comment 15147045 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 15146957 fireitup77 said: Quote: In comment 15146944 santacruzom said: Quote: Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did. I think this is more about Terps and his crew constantly saying a great qb doesn't need an oline. Do they say something that extreme? Or do they just say that a really good QB can perform better without a really oline than a lesser QB can?

What happened tonight? Did a really great QB with a sub par line compete?

In comment 15147041 moespree said:

Quote:

Perhaps his mind was on other things...obviously. But this was awful. Made no real adjustments, just kept doing the same thing even though it wasn't working, and just seemed off and lost.

You must have a short memory. He had some brutal games in big spots in philly.

Aaron Rodgers, 412/89, couldn't also play corner for Packers in the NFCC.

And Mahomes finally lost a playoff game after getting his team in position to win back to back Super Bowls.

So once this idiocy gas wears off, it will back to normal for another week hearing how Jones is due for a breakout season and Gettleman is the right man for the GM job.

That it takes more than a great qb to win. Some here have been beating the drum that a great qb can win without an oline and skill players. Tonight showed that that's not true. KC has been losing olinemen throughout the season. Tonight it caught up with them.

Tonight showed again that the nfl is the ultimate team game. The greatest qb in the league couldn't move the ball with a crap oline. He tried his best, made some incredible athletic plays. But without help her wasn't able to win.

And I'm told that's all that matters.

I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks.

In comment 15147045 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 15146957 fireitup77 said: Quote: In comment 15146944 santacruzom said: Quote: Meanwhile, I can only assume that we will start to see some posts implying that the Giants and Jones aren't far off from the Chiefs and Mahomes, respectively, because we played a much closer game with Tampa than they did. I think this is more about Terps and his crew constantly saying a great qb doesn't need an oline. Do they say something that extreme? Or do they just say that a really good QB can perform better without a really oline than a lesser QB can?

Yes they claim a qb like Mahomes can win by themselves. Tonight showed otherwise.

In comment 15147019 christian said:

Quote:

What’s the actual point being made in this thread?

I think it's that those who are critical of QBs who can't yet put together a winning season are therefore obligated to be equally critical of a stellar QB who performs very poorly in a Super Bowl?

In comment 15147058 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

That it takes more than a great qb to win. Some here have been beating the drum that a great qb can win without an oline and skill players. Tonight showed that that's not true. KC has been losing olinemen throughout the season. Tonight it caught up with them. Tonight showed again that the nfl is the ultimate team game. The greatest qb in the league couldn't move the ball with a crap oline. He tried his best, made some incredible athletic plays. But without help her wasn't able to win. And I'm told that's all that matters.

Yeah, pretty much.

painful how dumb Britt is.

He had ONE bad game in the SUPER BOWL.

While he was dealing with turf toe.

No matter what players you have, if you have a 4 man pass rush that destroys an offensive line, the QB isn't going to play well in that singular game. We saw that enough with the Giants.

Mahomes makes shit shine quite a bit. And he would have played a hell of a lot better if he wasn't clearly injured. He was running backwards a lot because he could not really cut with his turf toe.

Britt has absolutely no clue what he's watching on a football field at this point. He's either trolling everyone here or he has become partially brain dead.

A dominant pass rush can stop any offense. We already knew this. Add in a QB with turf toe and this is the result.

Anything can happen in ONE game. The best of the best can look like shit in ONE game. Put a healthy Mahomes behind that same offensive line for a 16 game season and he's still going to be 11-12 games in his sleep.

Tonight was just not his night. The Chiefs were stuck in neutral. Mahomes doesn't need a good line to operate, he has shown that over the course of 50+ starts in his career, but people like Britt will now try to use ONE game as evidence of well see he can't do it with a bad line because he didn't do it in ONE game.

Brady took shit offensive lines and made them look a hell of a lot better than they really were for years. Didn't matter if guys were injured, hurt, he would always figure it out over the course of a season.

Everyone is capable of playing ONE bad game offensively, especially when the front 4 of the other team is totally destroying the other offensive line (See Super Bowl 42). Brady won plenty with much worse offensive lines than he had in 2007, but on that ONE day in glendale, he wasn't able to overcome terrible offensive line play. Plenty of other times he was, just not on that one day.

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks.

Now your changing your tune. You have been saying all season that Jones should be winning more games by himself. It doesn't matter if the oline and skill positions suck. The qb should be able to win anyway. Now that you saw a great qb struggle under similar conditions you change your tune.

Does Mahomes all of a sudden suck? Probably not. He just can't do everything by himself like you claim.

The winning team tonight didn't have a great quarterback either. Yeah he threw 40 TDs this year, but I think it was probably a one off for him.

The four teams in the conference championships had quarterbacks that threw 35+ TDs, but the Gettlemans and Britts of the world want you to believe the Giants and their 12 TD passes are on the right track.

Some people are so fucking far behind in the face they think they're actually leading.

In comment 15147062 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 15147019 christian said: Quote: What’s the actual point being made in this thread? I think it's that those who are critical of QBs who can't yet put together a winning season are therefore obligated to be equally critical of a stellar QB who performs very poorly in a Super Bowl?

Just to be clear on that sentence, it was the Super Bowl. Not a regular season game against some incompetent team in the NFCE.

So after getting his team to the SB playing two great games - where he threw 5 TD/0 INTs, completing 70%+ of his passes, averaging 8.5+ YPA, and a blended QBR of 85 - Mahomes and the Chiefs FINALLY had a bad game.

I wish we had those "problems"...

Who ever claimed Mahomes can do it all himself?

Maybe it was closer to QBs like Mahomes can do a lot more by themselves?

Maybe with a clear injury, a coach who’s dealing with a horrible off the field circumstance, against a top 10 defense, against the best QB ever — Mahomes couldn’t do it.

But seriously what’s the point? Maybe cut the crap with “what BBI told you” and make a point?

In comment 15147071 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The winning team tonight didn't have a great quarterback either. Yeah he threw 40 TDs this year, but I think it was probably a one off for him. The four teams in the conference championships had quarterbacks that threw 35+ TDs, but the Gettlemans and Britts of the world want you to believe the Giants and their 12 TD passes are on the right track.

LOL

In comment 15147071 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The winning team tonight didn't have a great quarterback either. Yeah he threw 40 TDs this year, but I think it was probably a one off for him. The four teams in the conference championships had quarterbacks that threw 35+ TDs, but the Gettlemans and Britts of the world want you to believe the Giants and their 12 TD passes are on the right track. Some people are so fucking far behind in the face they think they're actually leading.

You are so magnanimous to include McCoy's TD pass in your comments.

What is the proposition being debated here? State it outright. No double meanings or crap like that.

The idea is that since terrific QBs sometimes fail, you need to construct a good team around them.

I completely agree. 100%. Even Mahomes - who I thought was sensational tonight - needs help.

In comment 15147073 christian said:

Quote:

Who ever claimed Mahomes can do it all himself? Maybe it was closer to QBs like Mahomes can do a lot more by themselves? Maybe with a clear injury, a coach who’s dealing with a horrible off the field circumstance, against a top 10 defense, against the best QB ever — Mahomes couldn’t do it. But seriously what’s the point? Maybe cut the crap with “what BBI told you” and make a point?

Exactly. I’ll take a bigger lesson from this: that modern online communication, with its double and triple entendres and implied slams, actually makes you stupid. The mode of discourse seeps into a person’s brain and infects it with imbecile illogic.

In comment 15147070 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said: Quote: I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks. Now your changing your tune. You have been saying all season that Jones should be winning more games by himself. It doesn't matter if the oline and skill positions suck. The qb should be able to win anyway. Now that you saw a great qb struggle under similar conditions you change your tune. Does Mahomes all of a sudden suck? Probably not. He just can't do everything by himself like you claim.

When did I say players do it all by themselves?

To be very clear on my stance:

- Patrick Mahomes is an incredible starting NFL quarterback

- Daniel Jones is a terrible starting NFL quarterback

I can't be clearer than that.

and Tom Brady's choice to go to Tampa Bay was way more calculated than previously thought?

They had a great Defense and plenty of weapons on Offense.

Jameis Winston (QB) was their only weak spot. Tom Brady and Gronkowski = victories.

In comment 15147070 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said: Quote: I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks. Now your changing your tune. You have been saying all season that Jones should be winning more games by himself. It doesn't matter if the oline and skill positions suck. The qb should be able to win anyway. Now that you saw a great qb struggle under similar conditions you change your tune. Does Mahomes all of a sudden suck? Probably not. He just can't do everything by himself like you claim.

Jesus, his team still won, what, 16 games this year? Has anyone who has argued that a great QB can overcome team deficiencies also said that these QBs should never, ever lose?

It’s so obvious and everybody sees it.

In comment 15147070 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said: Quote: I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks. Now your changing your tune. You have been saying all season that Jones should be winning more games by himself. It doesn't matter if the oline and skill positions suck. The qb should be able to win anyway. Now that you saw a great qb struggle under similar conditions you change your tune. Does Mahomes all of a sudden suck? Probably not. He just can't do everything by himself like you claim.

They’re all changing their tune.

and still arguing about this stuff?

Jesus, go to sleep

State exactly what is the topic of debate, please. I can’t make it out through the cloud of whataboutism and attributed arguments.

.

I saw a stat that when dropping back to pass last night, brady ran a total of 37 yards, mahomes ran for 463 yards. He was basically running for his life all night.

In comment 15147185 Kyle_ said:

Quote:

.

This post says a lot more about you and your tenure here than it does me.

They can’t take it when it comes back their way.

Things here aren't the same without you.

Luv always,

Britt in VA

That I’m a fan of our future HOF QB. Guilty.

Don’t need anything around them, they create offense themselves....

I love that story.

But I guarantee plenty are tired of you, and the other turds of misery crew’s shit. And that’s what you’re seeing here today.

But this is the environment that has been created.

But I will do my best to avenge your legacy anyway possible, even by tearing down every other NFL QB that dares to come between us.

Luv always,

Britt in VA

Listen, I want Jones to succeed, I really do. Mahomes (injured), isn't allowed to have an off night? Shit, Jones was off all season.

Mahomes is 25, just finished his third full year as a starter. Has won an MVP, SB and SB MVP. He was top 3 in MVP voting this year. Daniel Jones is only 1.5 years younger than Mahomes and I am pretty sure there isn't a poster on this board who would sign up for what Mahomes has done already, for Jones' entire career.

Who wouldn't sign up

And Mahomes in those three years has been to the AFC championship every year.

Makes it harder to believe that they couldn't score a TD last night.

But even great, great players like Mahomes don't do it on their own as some would have you believe.

In comment 15147222 figgy2989 said:

Quote:

Listen, I want Jones to succeed, I really do. Mahomes (injured), isn't allowed to have an off night? Shit, Jones was off all season. Mahomes is 25, just finished his third full year as a starter. Has won an MVP, SB and SB MVP. He was top 3 in MVP voting this year. Daniel Jones is only 1.5 years younger than Mahomes and I am pretty sure there isn't a poster on this board who would sign up for what Mahomes has done already, for Jones' entire career.

Actually NO! He was NOT off all season. Pre-injury he was moving the team very well..Had that setback, but did pretty well in the season finale despite still being limited in mobility..

You don’t think much of Jones after 25 games, fine, but please be accurate with your words.

And played like shit. It happens

Yes he has great talent but a lot of the issues from last night were self generated.

What can also be said is if DJ had the same performance no one would be defending him.

In comment 15147230 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

Makes it harder to believe that they couldn't score a TD last night. But even great, great players like Mahomes don't do it on their own as some would have you believe.

So what exactly are the point you are trying to make? Obviously there is an agenda here, but to use Mahomes' bad night as some sort of justification is just weird.

...is spot-on.

In comment 15147230 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

Makes it harder to believe that they couldn't score a TD last night. But even great, great players like Mahomes don't do it on their own as some would have you believe.

I can’t believe how much you are clinging onto this. For as much as I’ve gotten into it in the past with people here I don’t think any of them thing Mahomes or Rodger or Brady are actually the only reason why their teams won titles.

Much like the Rodgers MVP thread, I’ll take the efficient QB who puts me in the best chance to win on a weekly basis. The rest matters too, but not as much as this does.

It was a bad game anyway, this thread didn’t exist last year.

He didn't have protection, and the other team only had to rush four players so they had everybody back, and even a great player like Patrick Mahomes couldn't overcome it.

Something people have been saying for years, that we don't know what we have at QB until we stabilize our offensive line. But some here can't stand that very reasonable take. They start calling it an excuse.

It's not an excuse. Even great players can't overcome the circumstance Patrick Mahomes was in last night. Just having Patrick Mahomes isn't enough.

It's not. Look around the board this morning. Everybody saw it.

In comment 15147232 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147222 figgy2989 said: Quote: Listen, I want Jones to succeed, I really do. Mahomes (injured), isn't allowed to have an off night? Shit, Jones was off all season. Mahomes is 25, just finished his third full year as a starter. Has won an MVP, SB and SB MVP. He was top 3 in MVP voting this year. Daniel Jones is only 1.5 years younger than Mahomes and I am pretty sure there isn't a poster on this board who would sign up for what Mahomes has done already, for Jones' entire career. Actually NO! He was NOT off all season. Pre-injury he was moving the team very well..Had that setback, but did pretty well in the season finale despite still being limited in mobility.. You don’t think much of Jones after 25 games, fine, but please be accurate with your words.

BB'56, come on man. I am not a Jones basher here. Before the injuries, he was a turnover machine in critical times of the ball game. You can't say with a straight face, he threw some back breaking INT's and had some crucial fumbles.

What Jones was able to do his rookie year, gave many of us fans hope. He definitely regressed in year two. That can be contributed to many factors (no Saquon, new offensive coordinator, new OL...). But you really didn't see that individual improvement you were hoping for (still many of the same mistakes).

I am hoping Jones can turn it around next year. Put some talent around him, get a healthy Barkley back and then we can certainly see what we have at the QB position.

31st in points per game.

No, Daniel Jones was not moving the team very well...pre or post injury.

that 49er defense was better than this Tampa defense and yet the Chiefs put up 30.

I really hate these 1 game sample sizes to prove a point.

In comment 15147254 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

that 49er defense was better than this Tampa defense and yet the Chiefs put up 30. I really hate these 1 game sample sizes to prove a point.

These discussions have been going on for years now. This isn’t out of nowhere.

In comment 15147246 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

31st in points per game. No, Daniel Jones was not moving the team very well...pre or post injury.

Love how everyone has PM’s back but not Jones.

No protection
Weapons not getting open
Int’s off receivers hands

Sounds very much like the 2020 Giants O only difference is KC has some of the best weapons in the game.

Not saying Jones is on par with Mahomes. Just that no QB can win in that situation.

That a QB needs at least acceptable blocking to succeed. I agree.

Or is there some commentary on Daniel Jones in here somewhere?

hence my question.

These threads are the same shit every time. X player doesn't get the job done, the board is reminded its a team game like somehow they didn't know that in the first place, Giants are brought into the discussion, rinse/repeat.

Its pretty damn simple for me. Patrick Mahomes makes the Giants infinitively better than Daniel Jones does. Is he solely enough? Probably not, but maybe. If you have a top tier QB you can afford more mistakes. But we need far more hits everywhere else without a top tier QB.

is that Mahomes did sense the pressure and at least tried to do something with it. Jones is many times clueless to the pressure, completely clueless.

That aspect of his game has not gotten better (the line has gotten better, so he has less pressure, but that's not the same thing).......

In comment 15147257 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15147254 UConn4523 said: Quote: that 49er defense was better than this Tampa defense and yet the Chiefs put up 30. I really hate these 1 game sample sizes to prove a point. These discussions have been going on for years now. This isn’t out of nowhere.

Yes, the discussions where everybody was blaming Eli in your eyes.

And now you are using losses by great QBs as some silly "payback time" to try and prove a point that it really wasn't Eli's fault...ever.

In comment 15147187 oghwga said:

Quote:

I saw a stat that when dropping back to pass last night, brady ran a total of 37 yards, mahomes ran for 463 yards. He was basically running for his life all night.

"Here are the path's that Patrick Mahomes (top) and Tom Brady (bottom) took before pass attempts in shotgun during tonight's #SuperBowl

Red: complete
White: incomplete"



That Mahomes was doing that because of 4-man rushes by TB shows just a complete domination in the trenches by TB last night.
https://twitter.com/StatsbyLopez/status/1358620162904248320 - ( New Window )

Thanks for showing other posters here how to write succinctly and clearly. Now we can return to our regularly scheduled programming.

In comment 15147261 cosmicj said:

Quote:

That a QB needs at least acceptable blocking to succeed. I agree. Or is there some commentary on Daniel Jones in here somewhere?

I am trying to figure out how this thread turned into a debate that included Jones.

All Britt asked was how does Mahomes not throw a TD? Somehow that turned into a subliminal message of some kind about something else.

Let's ask a different question..
How many times in Superbowl history did a team fail to score a TD?

How many have you?

You are worthless. All you are is a yes man to others.

against a defense and team built to defeat them.

Not a great example to draw upon, and not a great look with the passive aggressive stuff either.

That’s a great graphic. thanks for posting it.

one in the 1st quarter

showed you why Defense wins Championships.

It doesn't matter who the QB is. If the QB is getting his ass beat in the pocket and under constant duress, there's little that can be done about it.

For me, just another reminder of how stupid it was getting rid of JPP. I realize he didn't do anything crazy last night, it was just another physically dominant performance. He lives in the other team's backfield. He is not a lockerroom problem either.

In comment 15147260 kes722 said:

Quote:

In comment 15147246 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: 31st in points per game. No, Daniel Jones was not moving the team very well...pre or post injury. Love how everyone has PM’s back but not Jones. No protection Weapons not getting open Int’s off receivers hands Sounds very much like the 2020 Giants O only difference is KC has some of the best weapons in the game. Not saying Jones is on par with Mahomes. Just that no QB can win in that situation.

I do support Jones...a good bit. I just don't see the need to exaggerate his play to force a point. The entire offense struggled and so did he.

How did Mahomes not throw a TD? A great defensive effort with very strong pass rushers attacking a decimated KC line, bracketing Tyreek the whole game and an outstanding job by White dominating the center of the field. Also, two deep S at all times.

This game will make Todd Bowles’ historical reputation.

and had jailbreak pressure on Mahomes all game. Their secondary also broke up some passes and had sound tackling limiting YAC.

KC answer seemed to be Mahomes going school yard and trying to evade pressure by running backwards and attempting insane throws. Incredibly, he almost connected on a few. When a D can dominate up front and generate big time pressure without having to add extra rushers, an offense will have a bad day. At this point it helps to run the ball to blunts that rush and pound the D a bit. KC chose not to do this, likely because Tampa's o line also dominated. They were running the ball and Brady could skip lemonade in the Pocket waiting for people to get open he had so much time.

Tampa kicked their ass which surprised me.

When your QB has constant immediate pressured by D that doesn't need to blitz, and you can't, or won't, run the ball. It will be long day for any offense regardless of QB.

Unfortunately, Giants fans should know this very well.

In comment 15147280 mittenedman said:

Quote:

showed you why Defense wins Championships.

That was the case with every Superbowl the Giants won. Yes, there were a couple of key plays by the offense of course... but the defense was truly the reason in each of our four SB victories.

The one superbowl we lost was when the opposing defense was far superior.

In comment 15147272 cosmicj said:

Quote:

Thanks for showing other posters here how to write succinctly and clearly. Now we can return to our regularly scheduled programming.

I'm just tired of the pot shot threads/posts disguised as something else. There isn't a single person I know personally or on this board (to the best of what I can see/read) that actually thinks 1 player is all it takes to win in the NFL.

Sure, top tier players are discussed in that fashion more liberally but that's because they elevate their teams so much. It doesn't mean they are infallible, and in yesterday's case Mahomes just didn't have it/wasn't able to overcome the pass rush which he usually does well when not injured.

I support the Giants, but even with a better OL we don't have a Mahomes, several tiers below it actually. With an improved OL Jones will need Barkley to be 2018 Barkley. He will need another WR. He will need the 2020 defense to replicate.

Cause he was playing with a dig shit line like Jones had to play with all year.

Mahomes played poorly against a very good defense, while injured, with a make shift line, and with the head coach dealing with a really awful off field family issue.

There’s literally no connection to any observation anyone has ever previously made about Mahomes. Last night wasn’t vindication or repudiation of any debate on BBI.

It’s a boogie man argument.

In comment 15147278 bc4life said:

Quote:

one in the 1st quarter

Didn't another guy (I think Williams?) get hit in the.face mask with the ball?

It's not like PM didn't give them a chance to score

Offensive Tackles make a lot money if they have even decent talent.

Draft accordingly...

which is everyone's favorite topic.

Back to back games that Tamp D gets to feast on a backup LT throw right into the fire with little to no prep time. How much different are the NFCC and SB games if Bakhtiari and Fisher are playing?

Brady got the job done in the SB, but man was it an easy win.

In comment 15147305 JayBinQueens said:

Quote:

It's not like PM didn't give them a chance to score

And Kelce dropped what would have been a big gain on third down.

The entire Chiefs offense struggled in all aspects. Mahomes wasn't perfect but he didn't get much help from any of his teammates.

In comment 15147329 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

which is everyone's favorite topic. Back to back games that Tamp D gets to feast on a backup LT throw right into the fire with little to no prep time. How much different are the NFCC and SB games if Bakhtiari and Fisher are playing? Brady got the job done in the SB, but man was it an easy win.

The guy had led a charmed NFL life almost from day one. It's absurd.

And though it didn't really matter in the end, the first half officiating was a joke.

Is that when a qb struggles consistently the popular game is that the qb himself sucks. Then when others point out possible deficiencies in surrounding talent that gets called an excuse (terps) and something that must be overcome because of draft status (bw).

Now, it doesn't mean that the QB I mentioned above is definitely going to be good enough. What it all means is, be careful when judging a qb with little to no help. Mahomes fits into this point because of his amazing ability as an individual player that could not overcome the deficiencies around him even with very good skill players.

If you don't align with the opinions that surrounding talent is an excuse or that the qb should overcome because of draft status than this isn't about you.

One last point. We also must consider coaching here. Reid and Eric Bieniemy knew the OL was probably going to be a problem, but still chose to sling the ball around the field. There was hardly any attempt to get the run game going from what I saw.

"Fire DG" Thread

plays by the secondary in the playoffs against the Bucs...i mean Brady just chucks it down the field at the end of each half against Packers and Chiefs and the secondary is absolutely clueless during these plays...what the hell

In comment 15147332 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 15147329 UConn4523 said: Quote: which is everyone's favorite topic. Back to back games that Tamp D gets to feast on a backup LT throw right into the fire with little to no prep time. How much different are the NFCC and SB games if Bakhtiari and Fisher are playing? Brady got the job done in the SB, but man was it an easy win. The guy had led a charmed NFL life almost from day one. It's absurd. And though it didn't really matter in the end, the first half officiating was a joke.

Since the game was so damn boring I had a nice little chat in out group text going about Brady, really passed the time in an otherwise unwatchable game.

I called Brady the luckiest player in sports history and got laughed at. That statement was twisted into "so you call 7 titles nothing but luck?" No I do not, but luck has played a bigger role in his career than anyone elses. You can caveat so many of his big games to the defense, a big bounce or 3, or calls that never seem to go against him.

I've never seen anything like it. Its one of those things where stats won't show it, you either believe it or you don't. I've believed it ever since the tuck rule.

He's a great player who has also had an absurd amount of good luck as well. I don't see why that's so hard for people to admit.

and now Mahomes

Listen,don't mess with Jints Central

In comment 15146981 bw in dc said:

Quote:

The overall gameplay seemed very unimaginative for the Chiefs. And I really think the weight of the Britt Reid situation was a factor. That is still a very serious problem for that organization. How can you not lose your focus? Definitely credit the Bucs, but the Chiefs just didn't seem themselves.

Nope. They lost both tackles and were up against a terrific front 7. That's why they weren't themselves.

horrible game and yeah, I'm guessing he wasn't 100% invested with what went on in his personal life. Another feather in Brady's cap!

a lot of adversity being made last year when Mahomes was getting his butt kicked by the San Fran defense for about 3 quarters?

son did have somewhat of an effect on the team. Mahomes mentioned it after the game and said something like "well...everyone was thinking about the families involved" which is obviously the right and good thing to say and do in that situation...but it just seemed like there was something in the air about the team the whole night that didn't feel good

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks.

And what you're telling us is you know more about Daniel Jones than the coaching staff. The staff appears to believe that Jones is worth the time and effort. You have clearly said he isn't. So, you know more about Daniel Jones than Judge and the Giants do. Am I right? That 24 games or so, you've seen enough. 24 and a new coaching staff in the middle of those 24 games is all you need to see. Judge, a football lifer, Garrett a football lifer, DG, all are clueless and you have it all figured out. Correct?

where every single thing from the actual play on the field to the officials went right for the Bucs, and nothing went right for the Chiefs. You are going to lose by at least 2 scores if that is the case

In comment 15147357 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

a lot of adversity being made last year when Mahomes was getting his butt kicked by the San Fran defense for about 3 quarters?

Check KC's OL status this time last year.

Arians and the Bucs completely fooled them. One of the most aggressive DCs in the game called less than 5 blitzes. The notorious downfield Arians attack morphed into a play action underneath Passing game.

The chiefs kept banging their head against the wall on offense. The Bucs played their safeties 20 yards deep and the chiefs, even with their depleted offensive line, kept trying to throw verticals. The lack of running plays was embarrassing, even for an Andy Reid led team

In comment 15147276 JonC said:

Quote:

against a defense and team built to defeat them. Not a great example to draw upon, and not a great look with the passive aggressive stuff either.

Meh, the passive aggressive was warranted.
If it was in response to a few threads stating that Jones has struggled than it may be a bit too much. But it is in response to day after day of the same tools shitting on the team, the GM, the QB and anyone who dares to be rooting for them.
This is a call out thread and there was no need to mention names...they showed up right on que.

Fuck em'!

In comment 15147369 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

But it is in response to day after day of the same tools shitting on the team, the GM, the QB and anyone who dares to be rooting for them.

My goodness! Why would anyone not be grateful for the wonderful job Dave Gettleman is doing????

is that like most everything else in life, and since BBI in and of itself is a microcosm of society to a degree, is that the hot takes have gotten stronger, louder, and more consistently stated as definitive facts. People, and I myself fall into this category so guilty, are often forced into extremes in conversations that they may not even want to defend, but are forced/compelled to.

You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there.

It is what it is.

we understand you don't like Dave Gettleman. Reminding us of that on a daily basis is getting old. How about we agree that he gets the boot if the team still stinks....? is that good enough for you

In comment 15147389 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 15147369 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: But it is in response to day after day of the same tools shitting on the team, the GM, the QB and anyone who dares to be rooting for them. My goodness! Why would anyone not be grateful for the wonderful job Dave Gettleman is doing????

Yeah but isn't this thread basically shitting on DG?

In comment 15147367 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 15147357 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: a lot of adversity being made last year when Mahomes was getting his butt kicked by the San Fran defense for about 3 quarters? Check KC's OL status this time last year.

Yes, I know. KC has been mixing and matching their OL this whole year because of injuries. Losing Fisher was probably the last nail in that coffin as they couldn't hold up now on both edges.

The point is still the same. This thread has an agenda.

If you can upgrade at QB, do it. The Bucs have a strong roster, but the turnovers by Winston were killing them. They upgraded the position and everything fell into place.

In comment 15147395 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

is that like most everything else in life, and since BBI in and of itself is a microcosm of society to a degree, is that the hot takes have gotten stronger, louder, and more consistently stated as definitive facts. People, and I myself fall into this category so guilty, are often forced into extremes in conversations that they may not even want to defend, but are forced/compelled to. You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there. It is what it is.

I agree. I think a significant part of the problem is that we tend to focus on other's issues, focusing on what's wrong with everyone else versus checking in with ourselves to see where we might be going astray.

I personally struggle with biases, being competitive when competition isn't necessary(digging in to be right about my view versus choosing to look at the other POV as something to possibly learn.) I also struggle with being too preoccupied with other's intentions when it's not necessary to do so which inhibits honest conversation from my end.

Lastly, my pride wants me to be the teacher and not the student which is quite foolish because both are valuable and necessary.

In comment 15147395 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

is that like most everything else in life, and since BBI in and of itself is a microcosm of society to a degree, is that the hot takes have gotten stronger, louder, and more consistently stated as definitive facts. People, and I myself fall into this category so guilty, are often forced into extremes in conversations that they may not even want to defend, but are forced/compelled to. You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there. It is what it is.

I'm in the middle. I call out both sides, they are equally ridiculous.

but like I said in my last post, get forced to take extremes I might not normally.

In comment 15147395 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

is that like most everything else in life, and since BBI in and of itself is a microcosm of society to a degree, is that the hot takes have gotten stronger, louder, and more consistently stated as definitive facts. People, and I myself fall into this category so guilty, are often forced into extremes in conversations that they may not even want to defend, but are forced/compelled to. You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there. It is what it is.

Choose whom and which topics to talk about, ignore the rest. You can't control other people or the world around you, other than to limit exposures.

...the "middle" is:
We're 2 years in on DJ, I'd like to see more before using valuable capital on another QB, ignoring the many other places that need attention.

In comment 15147433 JonC said:

Quote:

Choose whom and which topics to talk about, ignore the rest. You can't control other people or the world around you, other than to limit exposures.

sage~

In comment 15147395 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there.

Britt, do you think the way you started, framed, and participated in this post made for earnest debate? It's one thing for me, Greg, and Terps to give you shit. When a near completely objective poster like JonC balks, you might want to reassess.

but I agree I need to do a better job on that.

Is a hell of a talent.

But let’s not act like he didn’t walk into a perfect situation.

People forget they were 12-4 when they drafted him.

Top weapons, top line and a true QB genius in Reed.

This game is proof that the “Giants” model is a disaster for QB’s

No protection
Receivers not getting open

NO QB can win like that and just like last night it leads to bad decisions... like running back 30ys and just chucking the ball.

Mahomes is all world talent. Once you add Mike Remmers to the mix he is a young QB making dumb decisions

didn't have much to do with being young. You think he wanted to backpedal every snap?

The OL stunk and Reid didn't adjust. Add in the bad toe and not being able to step up as quickly as he usually does and there you go.

Great QB's have overcome bad OL play before, lastnight was just insurmountable for other reasons throw on top.

Mahomes faced pressure on over 50% of his snaps. The worst in the league over the course of the 2020 season is around 30% (which is Jones). The gap between what happened last night and what is typical is massive.

Unlike stats generated by baseball hitters, or a game of basketball that LeBron/Jordan can dominate because there are only 5 players out there. The QB position is dependent on the OL play, the WR talent, etc. This frankly makes Brady's accomplishments even more unbelievable.

Mahomes is great, but he can't do it himself as everyone saw. No one player can.

This is also why I believe Jones needs another year. His supporting cast doesn't personally show me enough to be able to make an educated decision on his real play

My wife and son were actually speculating about whether he was sick.

.

In comment 15147449 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 15147395 Britt in VA said: Quote: You can't just be in the middle anymore. Or you can be, but you certainly can't debate with anybody that doesn't want to concede anything to meet there. Britt, do you think the way you started, framed, and participated in this post made for earnest debate? It's one thing for me, Greg, and Terps to give you shit. When a near completely objective poster like JonC balks, you might want to reassess.

christian, that's fair...if you ignore what, how and just how much vitriol those that you mentioned have posted.
Jon makes a great point about ignoring the noise but said noise has found it's way into good conversations where it just isn't needed.
Some of us really want to see more, some of us do not.(DJ/DG)
Tone down the hyperbole and negativity.
These things also, do not make for earnest debate.

In comment 15147353 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 15146981 bw in dc said: Quote: The overall gameplay seemed very unimaginative for the Chiefs. And I really think the weight of the Britt Reid situation was a factor. That is still a very serious problem for that organization. How can you not lose your focus? Definitely credit the Bucs, but the Chiefs just didn't seem themselves. Nope. They lost both tackles and were up against a terrific front 7. That's why they weren't themselves.

I cede that, but the Chiefs seemed very one dimensional for them. No jet sweeps, no bubble screens, no shuffle passes, etc. When Tampa is playing that two-deep look you can get a lot of stuff short. So something was way off...

In comment 15147481 cosmicj said:

Quote:

My wife and son were actually speculating about whether he was sick.

Thought the same thing... he had a look on his face all night like something was wrong

There's no need for hyperbole. Gettleman's and Jones's performance speak for themselves. The rest - the rationalizations and excuses - is the noise.

in this thread so the posters that are doing that aren't helping. But, and its a big But, this thread was made for 1 specific reason so you kinda had it coming.

BBI is so predictable. 1 thing happens in football that proves a point you've been trying to make for years and bam, a thread is started seconds after it happens.

Reality is nothing that happened in the SB is anything i'd put a lot of stock in.

In comment 15147222 figgy2989 said:

Quote:

Listen, I want Jones to succeed, I really do. Mahomes (injured), isn't allowed to have an off night? Shit, Jones was off all season.

You are? I'm 100 percent sure what this thread is about.

it seemed like he had about 13 bud heavys the night before

In comment 15147238 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

I can’t believe how much you are clinging onto this. For as much as I’ve gotten into it in the past with people here I don’t think any of them thing Mahomes or Rodger or Brady are actually the only reason why their teams won titles.

Right? It's as if there's this vocal contingent that's critical of Jones because they're claiming a QB drafted 6th overall should be perfect, and now we get to laugh at them because one of the best QBs in the league isn't perfect.

In comment 15147299 christian said:

Quote:

Mahomes played poorly against a very good defense, while injured, with a make shift line, and with the head coach dealing with a really awful off field family issue.

Aw man, now you're just going to make a bunch of people upset because no one afforded Jones the same excuses when his team lost against _______ (take your pick, there's a lot of losses to choose from) in the regular season.

It's not just Mahomes. Both Rodgers and Jackson have been brought up in similar discussions. So the last three league MVPs are somehow relevant to the Daniel Jones experience.
The gymnastics are Olympic level.

In comment 15147364 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 15147060 Go Terps said: Quote: I think what you're being told is that it's hard to win with a quarterback that sucks. And what you're telling us is you know more about Daniel Jones than the coaching staff. The staff appears to believe that Jones is worth the time and effort. You have clearly said he isn't. So, you know more about Daniel Jones than Judge and the Giants do. Am I right? That 24 games or so, you've seen enough. 24 and a new coaching staff in the middle of those 24 games is all you need to see. Judge, a football lifer, Garrett a football lifer, DG, all are clueless and you have it all figured out. Correct?

Would it be the first time a football lifer wound up being wrong about the promise of an NFL QB, or would it be closer to the thousandth?

In comment 15147407 Sean said:

Quote:

If you can upgrade at QB, do it. The Bucs have a strong roster, but the turnovers by Winston were killing them. They upgraded the position and everything fell into place.

Hey, that's a good point. Wher are the Bizarro World Britts claiming that this one game categorically proves that the Giants would automatically improve to a SB-winning team if they replaced Daniel Jones with Aaron Rodgers?

That was executed well. They defeated that offense EXACTLY the same was we defeated an unstoppable offense in 2007. They pressured the QB with 4. Devin White is a stud, he was everywhere tackling with force.

It happened.

It has nothing to do with any long running BBI arguments.

plenty of people on this board think having a QB like Lamar Jackson is not the answer long term. Yeah, he won a MVP, he's an amazing talent.

But he's been largely disappointing in the playoffs due to his inability to throw the ball downfield, and ability to throw the ball period.

Nobody is saying Jones is better than Jackson, but some (like me) think Jones' future in the league and ability to win in the playoffs might be a bit higher.

I'm not sure how you hijacked this thread but you've done it again.

Britt knows what he's doing with a thread like this.

As for this statement:

"Nobody is saying Jones is better than Jackson, but some (like me) think Jones' future in the league and ability to win in the playoffs might be a bit higher."

Has Jones even won a game against a team with a winning record? How about we start there?

again...you are conflating what I said, which is what you do every single time you make a statement.

I said Jones' future in the league. Not his past. Would I rather have Jackson as our QB? Sure, maybe. But everything I've seen from him is what I've been saying about him. He can't throw the ball more than 15 yards in cold weather. And even in warm weather he struggles. It's great to design an offense around a guy who can't throw, but ultimately defenses will figure it out.

Everyone on this board and social media went nuts when Jackson finally won a playoff game against Tennessee this year. He didn't even play that well in that game, and Tennessee laid an egg, and Baltimore's defense really came to play. Then, against the Bills, Jackson was awful.

and Daniel Jones played as poorly as Jackson did against the Bills, you guys would want him traded in the offseason. He literally can't throw the football.

In comment 15147596 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

plenty of people on this board think having a QB like Lamar Jackson is not the answer long term. Yeah, he won a MVP, he's an amazing talent. But he's been largely disappointing in the playoffs due to his inability to throw the ball downfield, and ability to throw the ball period. Nobody is saying Jones is better than Jackson, but some (like me) think Jones' future in the league and ability to win in the playoffs might be a bit higher. I'm not sure how you hijacked this thread but you've done it again.

I get it. Jackson is 1-2 in the playoffs.

3 years in the league.

3 years the Ravens in the playoffs.

1 NFL MVP

Daniel Jones 2 years.

8 wins

None against teams with a winning record.

No playoffs.

Projecting Jones' playoff success to be greater than Jackson's at this point is a whole bunch of hope and nothing else.

In comment 15147605 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

and Daniel Jones played as poorly as Jackson did against the Bills, you guys would want him traded in the offseason. He literally can't throw the football.

Strawman. Stop it.

How about Daniel Jones gets to the playoffs and we worry about the rest later?

My criticism of Daniel Jones is that he has not shown much so far and the criticism of his college tape is the same as the criticism his professional tape. See Sy 56' college scouting report. Jones has some plus traits, he might get better. I hope he does. Working with hope at this point.

...to compare DJ to any other QBs. It is to point out that those (not all) that don't want to see anything else from DJ have been assholes about it.
There isn't room for debate. There is no need to discuss anything.

The SB did indeed point out some of the flaws in choosing absolutes as your only line of discussion.

What is the winning percentage for the New York Giants in the games Jones started vs the games he did not?

Curious.

In comment 15147620 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

...to compare DJ to any other QBs. It is to point out that those (not all) that don't want to see anything else from DJ have been assholes about it. There isn't room for debate. There is no need to discuss anything. The SB did indeed point out some of the flaws in choosing absolutes as your only line of discussion.

There's plenty of room for debate. Just make an argument that makes sense.

In comment 15147620 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

...to compare DJ to any other QBs. It is to point out that those (not all) that don't want to see anything else from DJ have been assholes about it. There isn't room for debate. There is no need to discuss anything. The SB did indeed point out some of the flaws in choosing absolutes as your only line of discussion.

One game by other teams with 2 weeks to game plan for is meaningless.

Sorry.

Jones needs to prove it on the field.

In comment 15147626 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15147620 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: ...to compare DJ to any other QBs. It is to point out that those (not all) that don't want to see anything else from DJ have been assholes about it. There isn't room for debate. There is no need to discuss anything. The SB did indeed point out some of the flaws in choosing absolutes as your only line of discussion. There's plenty of room for debate. Just make an argument that makes sense.

yep.

...100%!

...with Terps.
Not on this one.

In comment 15147628 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15147620 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: ...to compare DJ to any other QBs. It is to point out that those (not all) that don't want to see anything else from DJ have been assholes about it. There isn't room for debate. There is no need to discuss anything. The SB did indeed point out some of the flaws in choosing absolutes as your only line of discussion. One game by other teams with 2 weeks to game plan for is meaningless. Sorry. Jones needs to prove it on the field.

This thread is not about Daniel Jones.

This thread is about BBI.

to do so.

But that isn't what this thread was for...

In comment 15147632 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

...with Terps. Not on this one.

Make an argument based on reality, not conjecture, and not rationalization and excuses - and I'm all ears.

Tell me why, based on Jones's performance these two years, he's going to win a Super Bowl (which I believe you posted yesterday).

I'm all ears.

are you seriously demanding people to make an argument that isn't "based on conjecture" - that's all you do! Jesus christ.

you can't ask people to make their argument, and then shit all over it. That's why nobody on this message boards puts up with your constant bullshit. It's why nobody respects you as a poster, and why nobody answers you (other than me).

You act like you want to have a discussion, but you actually don't. There's a difference.

I'll join the firing chorus if we still stink next year. I said all long - I expect 6 wins in 2020 and then playoffs 2021, continue to grow into a championship contender with the path we are on. Are we going to make the SB next year? No. Will we make it the year after? I don't know.

All I know is that some people are willing to wait just a bit more, and because we are - you make idiotic statements like "oh so that means you think Daniel Jones is good? You think Gettleman is good?"

No. It just means we like where things are headed, and we are willing to let it play out. We understand that a lot of Jones' issues stem from the actual team, a lot of them stem from him, but we are willing to see how he progresses next year.

That's all. There's nothing else to it other than that.

Lamar Jackson can't throw the ball. He's an amazing athlete. But it's clear as day he can't throw the football in the playoffs. That's a serious, serious problem, and one that I wouldn't want to have.

In comment 15147596 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Nobody is saying Jones is better than Jackson, but some (like me) think Jones' future in the league and ability to win in the playoffs might be a bit higher.

What evidence supports this? What indicators are you using Jones is able to win in the playoffs at a higher rate?

He's got a ton to prove, and in 2020 he looked lost. It's ok that you believe in him and the Giants progress under DG at the same time.

But, you're going to have to endure the crowd that doesn't believe to this point. This means you should probably skip those threads, quite frankly. Your hearts and optimism are not going to be enough to affect the debate or the posters who irritate you. Hope and having a pile of IFs fall in the positive column in order for success aren't going to be enough to affect the same crowd.

Do yourself a favor, avoid those threads. Start the new NFL League year differently than you left it. I'll be doing the same filtering ...

In comment 15147600 Go Terps said:

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Has Jones even won a game against a team with a winning record? How about we start there?

This reply is in no way to defend Jones but instead to caution you about using statistics as an absolute basis for making any kind of final determinations about a player....especially when this is a team game.

What were Eli's stats against teams with a winning record over his last few seasons as a starter? Not good... and most people here would likely say much of it had to do with the pieces around him. We are also willing to include him in a discussion about a HOF ballot.

So, lets talk about DJs ability to read defenses, his accuracy, etc.. you know, things that he is personally and solely responsible for as a QB. Poke holes in that all day long as you should.

In comment 15147696 JonC said:

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This means you should probably skip those threads

Virtually every thread morphs into a Jones discussion.

For me, I am not sold on whether Jones is the right QB for us. What I am sold on is we need him to have the following before making that final determination..

1. A few weapons (we all agree there is no #1 WR, a backup RB and a horrible TE)
2. At least an average OL (not one of the worst in the league)
3. A second year with this head coach and OC
4. A real training camp as the starter... NO, he has not had that yet.

We likely cannot fix all four of these things in this off season yet I am still not giving him anymore time past 2011 to show us something. If we can fix #1 OR #2 then that should be enough to get a few more wins.

He's not even a top 10 QB in this league. He's a great RB that's all. Trash

i've said it a million times...

there is no "evidence" to suggest Jones is going to be awesome. The same can be said for essentially 90% of all quarterbacks that enter the league and play football for their respective teams for the first few years.

But based on what I've seen with my eyes, and what we know about the kid, I "think" he's going to be really good.

Now...does that mean he will make the pro bowl next year? Does that mean he will absolutely 100% make the playoffs next year? Does it mean he will throw for 35 and 10 next year? No. It doesn't. And anyone on this board, or any Giant fan, who says that it will or won't happen, is simply bullshitting just to support their own narrative.

My narrative is this: Jones will be a really good NFL quarterback, and he'll play for the Giants for a long time.

In comment 15147717 Saquads26 said:

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He's not even a top 10 QB in this league. He's a great RB that's all. Trash

I was saying that right after he was drafted. Then... I felt like I was wrong because he had a few games where he was connecting well with his WRs. However, this past season swayed me back to my original assessment again.

In comment 15147494 Go Terps said:

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Can you please stop pretending like you know what DJ is or isn’t.
News Flash- you don’t. Nobody does. Nobody.
Yet you’re on every thread telling everyone you know better than everyone else. I’m just shocked that all the NFL teams haven’t called you up and hired you immediately for their GM.
And if you aren't sharp enough to realize that having a poor OL and terrible skill players will stunt any QB development, that’s on you.

In comment 15147718 ryanmkeane said:

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i've said it a million times... there is no "evidence" to suggest Jones is going to be awesome. The same can be said for essentially 90% of all quarterbacks that enter the league and play football for their respective teams for the first few years. But based on what I've seen with my eyes, and what we know about the kid, I "think" he's going to be really good. Now...does that mean he will make the pro bowl next year? Does that mean he will absolutely 100% make the playoffs next year? Does it mean he will throw for 35 and 10 next year? No. It doesn't. And anyone on this board, or any Giant fan, who says that it will or won't happen, is simply bullshitting just to support their own narrative. My narrative is this: Jones will be a really good NFL quarterback, and he'll play for the Giants for a long time.

Why? You might get me, if you explain the why?

Do you possess an above the normal fan knowledge of the position?
If yes, briefly explain.

Tell us what you have seen to make you feel this way. Please be specific.

ryan sees it in his eyes...

Is that Jones and the team he starts for has not been good enough to win more than 8 games in 2 years.

How much of that is on Jones?

Speculate away.

That's what we know.

Predicting greatness from there is more of a stretch than predicting mediocrity.

In comment 15147747 Thegratefulhead said:

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Is that Jones and the team he starts for has not been good enough to win more than 8 games in 2 years. How much of that is on Jones? Speculate away. That's what we know. Predicting greatness from there is more of a stretch than predicting mediocrity.

2 years? How many seasons since 2011??

In comment 15147744 Jimmy Googs said:

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ryan sees it in his eyes...

Sush. I am trying to teach how make a proper argument without him realizing it. I am trying to avoid oppositional defiance and you are making it difficult. :)

In comment 15147750 EricJ said:

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In comment 15147747 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: Is that Jones and the team he starts for has not been good enough to win more than 8 games in 2 years. How much of that is on Jones? Speculate away. That's what we know. Predicting greatness from there is more of a stretch than predicting mediocrity. 2 years? How many seasons since 2011??

Using his professional experience for this as projecting professional success from college and high school games is a crap shoot. See the historical record of NFL draft picks.

In comment 15147718 ryanmkeane said:

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My narrative is this: Jones will be a really good NFL quarterback, and he'll play for the Giants for a long time.

That's fair. In my non-supported opinion, I think his ceiling is good QB, on par with say a Carr.

But you do see how it's hard to take the debate with you seriously when you make broad claims that Jones is going to outpace Jackson, and your backing evidence is your gut.

It's cool if it's not a serious debate. The conversations on BBI fall on a spectrum from trivial to really analytical. If this discussion leans towards the former, totally cool. You just came off as a little definitive, to me anyway.

as if Jones has been in the league for 4 years already. He's played 26 games. And the first 12 and the last 6, there are some really promising signs.

However, there is some really bad stuff too. Including most importantly, the turnovers. I think he turned a corner with that with his final 6 games of the season. He had 1 interception that was dropped by Engram, and 2 fumbles, one of which was a handoff. So - if our tight end catches the ball, he finished his last 6 starts with 0 picks, and probably 1 fumble.

If you don't think that is progress, not sure what to tell you.

So it's a qualified improvement at best.

we went 4-2, with an offense that was still struggling pretty badly. You can talk about the schedule all you want, but we went 4-2 in his final 6 starts with him protecting the ball better. Call me crazy but perhaps if we give the kid another weapon or two, we might see better results.

In comment 15147768 Greg from LI said:

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So it's a qualified improvement at best.

Correct. But I'm just talking about the turnovers. Did he improve in that area or not?

He also rushed for a TD against Philly, and played pretty much close to a perfect game that day. Just because we ran the ball in on the goal line twice doesn't mean he didn't play really well.

number of games it takes to determine whether a QB is elite or not.

Clearly,for some, 26 is not it - it must be more.

of the home Eagles game is what I want to see for the majority of next season. Especially with Barkley back and another weapon at WR, there's no excuses not to be able to put up 25-30 points per game.

In comment 15147718 ryanmkeane said:

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But based on what I've seen with my eyes, and what we know about the kid, I "think" he's going to be really good. My narrative is this: Jones will be a really good NFL quarterback, and he'll play for the Giants for a long time.

I agree with you ryan. I am not a big stats guy particularly in today's NFL. The KPI's I'm looking for are a big, tall QB who can make all the throws from the pocket, can read a D, has balls of steel and isn't looking to run unnecessarily. Have the 6th sense to feel the rush while keeping eyes downfield. Solid work ethic and love of the game.

To me, Jones was starting to play very clean football and showing real signs of developing in all the above areas before going down. And then again in the finale. He looked like he grew up. I still remember when he earned the nickname Danny Dimes. We can laugh all we want, but he was surgeon-like with beautiful throws.

If he continues his trend of cleaning up his game, he can be a starting professional QB who can run every play in the playbook and be a problem for defenses. A true franchise QB who doesn't limit you in any way. I absolutely believe that.

Remember what Mahomes looked like last night and remember the circumstances for Jones. He doesn't have Hill & Kelce either. Jones has been playing on an offense that from an organizational level has been a laughingstock for years. IMO since McAdoo got here. Incredibly easy to defend. In 2021 there is finally a glimmer of hope Jones will be in a viable situation. Andrew Thomas coming back as a Pro Bowl LT would be a great start. Add in Barkley at RB and (hopefully) a #1 WR. Scheme continuity. I have a very good feeling an experienced Jones is going to deliver.

In comment 15147779 ryanmkeane said:

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of the home Eagles game is what I want to see for the majority of next season. Especially with Barkley back and another weapon at WR, there's no excuses not to be able to put up 25-30 points per game.

Basically a certainty there will be plenty of excuses...

i literally said, there are no excuses anymore. I expect 25-30 points a game with Barkley back and another weapon or two, and Jones to take a big step.

I am just telling you what we will hear as the season goes on and the team isn't scoring 25-30 pts per game.

In comment 15147771 ryanmkeane said:

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we went 4-2, with an offense that was still struggling pretty badly. You can talk about the schedule all you want, but we went 4-2 in his final 6 starts with him protecting the ball better. Call me crazy but perhaps if we give the kid another weapon or two, we might see better results.

Context. What were the records of those teams? Were any of them starting a back up QB?

For better results from Jones.

Hoping.

I think he is accurate.

I think he is fast.

I think he is courageous.

I don't think he feels the rush.

I don't think he processes fast enough.

I don't think he is elusive.

Think about those plays where Mahomie was running every which way and getting the ball out. Jones is sacked and or turns the ball over in those spots.

The great ones make off schedule plays.

Everything breaks down, they Houdini it and make a play.

I don't see that magic in Jones.

I want to see it badly.

I am good with next year.

Results or get the fuck out though.

Training wheels are off and accountability to results must begin.

In comment 15147809 Jimmy Googs said:

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I am just telling you what we will hear as the season goes on and the team isn't scoring 25-30 pts per game.

OK - just for the record - you're just being an asshole now. But I gotcha.

i thought the point of football was to win games right? That's what BBI always says - no matter the opponent - you just have to win. That's what you guys judge Gettleman on isn't it?

So - enough with the "well, it was against X team..." He went 4-2 down the stretch without much help.

And every week in the NFL is tough. Even the Bengals beat the Titans this past year. No week is a given.

In comment 15147852 ryanmkeane said:

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i thought the point of football was to win games right? That's what BBI always says - no matter the opponent - you just have to win. That's what you guys judge Gettleman on isn't it? So - enough with the "well, it was against X team..." He went 4-2 down the stretch without much help. And every week in the NFL is tough. Even the Bengals beat the Titans this past year. No week is a given.

You are hitching your trailer to a cherry picked, small sample size against weak opponents and want people to accept that as evidence that things will change in 2021.

I am not a whack job. I don't pretend I like the Giants and come here to bash them and management. I love the Giants. I have been watching a a VERY shitty product for most of the last 7 years. The one winning season was clearly an outlier. I have been enduring

DOUBLE DIGIT LOSS SEASONS YEAR AFTER YEAR.

I don't hate DG or Daniel Jones.

I am just sick to death of excuses and the people making them.

That's it.

I am going to take you at your word that there will be no excuses next year.

That is all this poster is asking for.

No more excuses.

Results.

Accountability.

These are the things I crave.

In comment 15147850 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 15147809 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: I am just telling you what we will hear as the season goes on and the team isn't scoring 25-30 pts per game. OK - just for the record - you're just being an asshole now. But I gotcha.

For the record, that wasn't really called for.

And no joke, what you can surely count on in life is death, taxes and a fairly widespread use of excuses on BBI.

i'm telling you, i'm literally begging you to believe me, that i will want DG gone if the team still stinks, and Jones gone if he still isn't getting it done. I've said this....maybe 100 times in the past 6 months.

For some reason, you still don't believe me.

It's his defenders on BBI that are the real chuckleheads...

In comment 15147605 ryanmkeane said:

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He literally can't throw the football.

"Literally" may not mean what you think it means.

In comment 15147747 Thegratefulhead said:

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Is that Jones and the team he starts for has not been good enough to win more than 8 games in 2 years.

And we've come full circle, because apparently the Super Bowl just proved that no QB can win with below average OL play, and Jones has always had below average OL play, and therefore, Jones cannot be blamed for having lost way more games than he's won.

Or something like that.

If DJ plays like he did against the Eagles, I’m all in and we have ourselves a QB. Let’s remember that benchmark and talk about whether DJ is meeting it next season.

In comment 15148037 cosmicj said:

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If DJ plays like he did against the Eagles, I’m all in and we have ourselves a QB. Let’s remember that benchmark and talk about whether DJ is meeting it next season.

Hey, I’m with ya there. He needs to play like that all of the time. Everyone has a down week - but he needs to be that quarterback (or better) for us week in and week out. I think he can and will be.

In comment 15147873 ryanmkeane said:

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i'm telling you, i'm literally begging you to believe me, that i will want DG gone if the team still stinks, and Jones gone if he still isn't getting it done. I've said this....maybe 100 times in the past 6 months. For some reason, you still don't believe me.

You are sitting in the catbird's seat because I am fairly sure Jones is going to have all of 2021 AND 2022 to prove himself. To borrow a Terp's phrase, Jones has a fully guaranteed scholarship at this point.

that because the preponderance of BBI posters believe that *GASP* QB is the most important position on the field. So Britt takes it to its "logical" conclusion that QB is the only position that matters and that the best QB should win regardless of who is playing around him. It is beyond tiresome at this point.

.

In comment 15148109 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15147873 ryanmkeane said: Quote: i'm telling you, i'm literally begging you to believe me, that i will want DG gone if the team still stinks, and Jones gone if he still isn't getting it done. I've said this....maybe 100 times in the past 6 months. For some reason, you still don't believe me. You are sitting in the catbird's seat because I am fairly sure Jones is going to have all of 2021 AND 2022 to prove himself. To borrow a Terp's phrase, Jones has a fully guaranteed scholarship at this point.

Your play being worth more than your contract is certainly not being on scholarship. He's shown he's worth a rookie contract. If he doesn't take next step next year we should start looking at other possible options and upgrades. But you can't tell me he's overpaid for what he's putting out there. The NFL is all about dollars vs performance. A QB is going to have to be poor to not be worth a rookie QB contract. Three of the veteran QBs that are just north of DJ are Tyrod, Fitz, and Foles. I'd rather have DJ than all three of those guys at this point.

In comment 15148780 Britt in VA said:

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I should. My work's done here.