Good morning football is talking about him right now. He has superior arm talent, sis well on wonderlic and interviews. I wish he ran.
I am not for going QB this year but this is a deep draft. We have 2 first round picks and 9 overall. If we draft Willis we still have 8 draft picks. We could still get a RT at 7, edge rusher position is deep and there will be very good players top of round 2. WR position is also deep and can get a guy in round 3.
Am I crazy or does this all line up for a QB at 5?
They were talking about PIT. That makes a ton of sense. These QB hungry teams like PIT and NO and others should be in a decent spot to gamble on a guy they like.
He is worthy of a late first round pick imv.
The most ready QB in this class is Pickett .
I am still intrigued by Ridder who has accuracy issues but not in the first round.
How well he does on the boards when the scouts and coaches dig will be a big part in all these QB's potential draft status.
You may think that is where he belongs, but that is not where he will be picked. In a normal Draft, perhaps he would go early 2nd, but in a poor QB year he is going earlier.
There may be a changing of the criteria for QBs in the NFL, now. Lamar Jackson proved that a mere adequate thrower but great athlete at QB is viable. I never thought LJ would be as good as he is and he is very good. However, he is still deficient(maybe inconsistent is better) as a passer overall, even though he has excellent days.
I suspect someone will choose him top 15. I would not be surprised if the Giants consider him at #7.
But it also means, Daboll probably isn't alone, and he may not be there at 5.
Kafka worked with Mahomes. Daboll and Schoen were part of the organization that jumped up for Josh Allen.
If you don't want the Eagles or Commanders taking a chance on him wrecking our season for years to come....then yes...you draft him and you work him until he is a season killer for those teams....and Dallas too!
But someone will reach.
I definitely agree. They will have a likely choice of one of the two tackles, Thibodaux, or Hamilton, Likely the last two. You need to take those guys as they could be potential all pros. I just don’t think the value is there for these quarterbacks. Daniel Jones could still be better than all of these guys. Not saying that I’m over enthused with Daniel Jones, but if you’re going to draft a quarterback, you better think that he is better than the one you have and he can carry the team.
Of course he'd impress with that arm while throwing to an uncovered WR. But at Liberty, he was one read and then run most of the time. Maybe he was asked to do that because that was the best way for them to win - he was basically the best athlete on the field in a lot of his games against lesser competition.
It's up to Daboll and Schoen to figure out if he's got the goods between the ears and can run a multiple read offense against NFL defenses. If they think he can, then he's definitely worth the pick. He'd be like Dak with Josh Allen's arm. The sky is the limit.
Theres no need for him to run or do anything else but interview and maybe workout for teams directly. You can see his speed, agility and strength in the games. The only question with this guy is if he can beat a tough defense from the pocket. This is where he might struggle and end up being a worse version of Jalen Hurts.
If the new braintrust picks him, then I'll be all in. That means they think he's got the goods and can meet his potential. These regimes don't get to pick QBs more than once very often so they need to be right when they take a shot like that.
I agree, he basically showed he throws a great deep ball, but the accuracy on his other balls needs a lot of work. Way too big of a project to be selected at 5 or 7.
He is worthy of a late first round pick imv.
The most ready QB in this class is Pickett .
I am still intrigued by Ridder who has accuracy issues but not in the first round.
Agreed. He is so far behind in his development that 2022 is a Redshirt year. He had some misses in the drill because the mechanics were very bad. Is his limitations in college due to the scheme or is it just that while he is a humble/articulate person who appears to have a strong work ethic, his football IQ is not enough to get more complex. For all of the talk of Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts of the game, 3 of the 4 starting QB’s in Conference Championship were not guys thought of as running QB’s. They can keep D’s honest by running if you give a lane, but they are not one read and go like Jackson or Hurts. Mahomes is unique because even starting QB’s who train with him say he can do stuff that should not be humanly possible. Even with that, he is scrambling to give guys time to get open not looking at it as I have to gain yards because nobody is initially free.
Whether he is worth a 5th/7th round pick, I have no idea, but if this new Giants regime thinks so, I'll be pretty damn excited.
The only question I have is which QB royally screwed up interviews at Senior Bowl. I have not seen anyone react negatively to Pickett or Willis interviews so it must have been Howell, Ridder, Zappe, or Strong.
You gotta think long and hard about it.
You gotta think long and hard about it.
You also just described JaMarcus Russell
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You have to think long and hard before passing on a player who combines some of Josh Allen's arm traits with some of Lamar Jackson's running traits. And who is built like a brick shithouse
You gotta think long and hard about it.
You also just described JaMarcus Russell
With high intelligence and sensitivity to boot. If this player reaches his potential, it's an insane player.
With the guys who coached Allen and Mahomes it's like this coaching staff was assembled for this player.
I'm not going to pound my first for him at 5 or 7 but I'd be pretty damn excited if we did. Trade back is ideal but I suspect that isn't an option, he will be picked early.
Trey Lance was a big reach too.
You pick the best players...
Trey Lance was a big reach too.
I was thinking about him earlier. They gave up what, 2 firsts and then some to trade up for him. Shannahan loved was he saw, obviously, and we will see how it goes in year 2 with him the starter.
But we can take a similar player without the added risk of leveraging future picks which is where my intrigue lies. In all likelihood you will need to be picking in the top 3 next year to get your guy which means, if we improve at all this year, we are going to have to trade up to get one of the top QB's.
Willis is a risk, but man is it tempting.
We could take an OT or DE. They are also valuable. They would likely have a higher likelihood of being good/decent/OK than Willis. If an OT or DE hits his ceiling, he's worth 3-4 1st round picks.
QBs are ~10x more valuable than any other position. So even if the likelihood that he hits his ceiling is lower, the expected value is much higher.
One shouldn't have anything to do with the other. We have to assume the OL will be better in order for us to compete regardless of who our QB is. What if the line still sucks next year and we have the #1 pick - don't take the best QB in the draft?
No way, what I would do is trade with Carolina and take either their 3rd or 4th pick if they want a QB. Move down one spot and get another pick.
IMO all these QB's have roughly the same chance at being the one good QB out of the class, so I'd wait for the 2nd and take who is there (hopefully its Ridder).
So we already know the OL sucks next season? Good to know. Can you give us your inside info as to who will be the starting OL? Thanks!
Oh and people that still believe that the only way to address the OL is to spend every 1st round pick they have on them continue to be pure entertainment. Look around the league. There are numerous examples of good OLs that didn’t have to overly invest 1st round picks. But you’ve been told this 1000 times and continue to ignore the facts, so I’m not sure why I even bothered…
Improvisation is a big part of what make Mahomes and Allen special. Neither was a top prospect, both had various concerns heading into the draft. And Allen especially improved a lot after being lost his rookie year.
This isn't a slam dunk by any means but I'd rather swing and miss with a guy with this type of potential than maybe get a good player elsewhere. Its no guarantee that the non-QB's we take will be great players.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
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You have to think long and hard before passing on a player who combines some of Josh Allen's arm traits with some of Lamar Jackson's running traits. And who is built like a brick shithouse
You gotta think long and hard about it.
You also just described JaMarcus Russell
Jamarcus Russell had Eli Manning speed, lol. Cmon man, this is a terrible comp
I do kind of lean towards gambling big on potential greatness, though, with a high risk/high reward guy like Willis than a guy considered a safer but more limited pick like Pickett.
He was the QB of that team with a weak supporting cast. Taking a QB #5 from a lower tier D1 school is risky business.
I do kind of lean towards gambling big on potential greatness, though, with a high risk/high reward guy like Willis than a guy considered a safer but more limited pick like Pickett.
As exciting as Willis was last night. Pickett looked very good as well. Pickett was wasily the most accurate passer last night and threw a great ball all night. I don't think we know Pickett's ceiling. Could be top 10.
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...who played with a weak supporting cast at Liberty are the same people who constantly make excuses for Jones because "he's playing with no talent around him"
He was the QB of that team with a weak supporting cast. Taking a QB #5 from a lower tier D1 school is risky business.
On the other hand...Willis might fit right in with the Giants since they are a D1 team of the NFL...
Duke played Clemson when they had NFL talent all over the field.
Liberty played who? They got stomped by Ole Miss.
Just a ignorant comment to make. It's like people can't accept Willis has major questions, and feel any criticism is a direct compliment to Jones somehow.
That said, I said the same thing about Josh Allen, and the new Giants management may know something about how that went.
Those posters critical of Willis, I highly recommend looking at his 2021 game highlights and check out some of the long-range throws he makes. He is deadly accurate. If he lives up to his promise, the defense will need to defend the entire field at all times because he can deliver the ball on a dime almost anywhere.
Time for our two new leaders to earn their money. I am convinced that it isn’t what we do with Jones or Saquon that’s the biggest decision of the off-season, it’s the talent evaluation of Willis.
Big words, I know, but I believe it.
You gotta think long and hard about it.
Plus Willis is likely to run a 40 that ranks among the top 3 QB prospects ever. And he has serious quickness.
Those posters critical of Willis, I highly recommend looking at his 2021 game highlights and check out some of the long-range throws he makes. He is deadly accurate. If he lives up to his promise, the defense will need to defend the entire field at all times because he can deliver the ball on a dime almost anywhere.
Time for our two new leaders to earn their money. I am convinced that it isn’t what we do with Jones or Saquon that’s the biggest decision of the off-season, it’s the talent evaluation of Willis.
Big words, I know, but I believe it.
He can hit deep throws, but anything short or medium it is anyone's guess. Despite how scripted the combine is and the drills are the exact same each year, he definitely looked out of his element on the bread and butter throws that all QB's need to make.
If you think Daboll and Kafka can turn Jones into a functional NFL starter, what do you think they can do with a raw prospect with way more physical ability than Jones?
If you think Daboll and Kafka can turn Jones into a functional NFL starter, what do you think they can do with a raw prospect with way more physical ability than Jones?
Good way to frame it!
Those posters critical of Willis, I highly recommend looking at his 2021 game highlights and check out some of the long-range throws he makes. He is deadly accurate. If he lives up to his promise, the defense will need to defend the entire field at all times because he can deliver the ball on a dime almost anywhere.
Time for our two new leaders to earn their money. I am convinced that it isn’t what we do with Jones or Saquon that’s the biggest decision of the off-season, it’s the talent evaluation of Willis.
Big words, I know, but I believe it.
Agreed. Do you trust these coaches? If so, if they want him, you have to be stoked.
If you think Daboll and Kafka can turn Jones into a functional NFL starter, what do you think they can do with a raw prospect with way more physical ability than Jones?
Bingo.
Willis is physically gifted, loaded with raw talent, coachable, and smart.
If someone believes (as Joe Schoen said earlier this week) that Jones has the work ethic to "reach his ceiling" with Brian Daboll, why wouldn't the same thing apply to Willis?
If there was ever a time to make a calculated gamble on a player with huge upside potential, it's when you're sitting on two early first round picks.
He might be the perfect blend of arm talent and athlete that can improvise in today’s modern NFL.
I am not saying I want him just pointing out that he has abilities coaches cannot teach. Similar to how I felt about Josh Allen in 2018, he has raw ability.
Pickett and Ridder are intriguing as well.
All I can say is I wouldn’t be surprised if NYG took a QB.
I could also see a move up into the back end of round 1 for Ridder as a possibility.
As for 40 Time..who gives a shit... watch him outrun everyone--that's all your need to know about that.
If they like him at 5, I'm even MORE Supportive of the pick!!!!
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
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you have to also be a "I have no idea what Malik Willis" is guy. Willis played fewer games at Liberty than Jones has played in the NFL, and clearly had even less talent week to week than Jones.
If you think Daboll and Kafka can turn Jones into a functional NFL starter, what do you think they can do with a raw prospect with way more physical ability than Jones?
Bingo.
Willis is physically gifted, loaded with raw talent, coachable, and smart.
If someone believes (as Joe Schoen said earlier this week) that Jones has the work ethic to "reach his ceiling" with Brian Daboll, why wouldn't the same thing apply to Willis?
If there was ever a time to make a calculated gamble on a player with huge upside potential, it's when you're sitting on two early first round picks.
If he was so coachable and football smart why has he not developed at all when it comes to reading defenses and why is their O continuing to be one read and if not open Willis runs with the ball?
The current Giants QB couldn't get a recruiting letter from Auburn.
And Joe Burrow couldn't start for Ohio State because of JT Barrett and Dwayne Haskins.
What point are you trying to make?
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Because plenty of toolsy QB's have failed because they did not have a tool box. There are red flags with Willis. At certain positions where the Giants have needs there is a difference between #5 and #25. Is Willis that much better than Desmond Ridder who could be there in Round 2?
If he was so coachable and football smart why has he not developed at all when it comes to reading defenses and why is their O continuing to be one read and if not open Willis runs with the ball?
You'd have to ask Hugh Freeze that question.
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It's been said repeatedly this is a draft of red chip prospects, where the difference between #5 and #25 probably isn't that great.
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Because plenty of toolsy QB's have failed because they did not have a tool box. There are red flags with Willis. At certain positions where the Giants have needs there is a difference between #5 and #25. Is Willis that much better than Desmond Ridder who could be there in Round 2?
Yes.
his skills are obviously high end but that doesn't matter if you don't have an ability to run an NFL passing offense.
the closest recent prospect was Lamar Jackson and he'd proven a lot more than Willis in that area, and every team in the first round passed on him (including his own).
It sounds like Willis is a great kid so someone will likely take the chance on the skills and it could be as high as 2 or 5 or anywhere. But more than any other position fans are just guessing when it comes to what the NFL truly thinks about QBs.
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It's been said repeatedly this is a draft of red chip prospects, where the difference between #5 and #25 probably isn't that great.
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Because plenty of toolsy QB's have failed because they did not have a tool box. There are red flags with Willis. At certain positions where the Giants have needs there is a difference between #5 and #25. Is Willis that much better than Desmond Ridder who could be there in Round 2?
Josh Allen fits in this category. How do you feel about the Giants passing on him?
His processing can be as bad as Jones' is, but it likely can't be much worse. Processing what he is seeing slowly, and often incorrectly, is the biggest flaw in Daniel Jones' game. If you think Daboll and Kafka can fix it in Jones, why not invest that effort in fixing it in a guy who is younger, cheaper and more talented?
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In comment 15620612 Go Terps said:
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It's been said repeatedly this is a draft of red chip prospects, where the difference between #5 and #25 probably isn't that great.
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Because plenty of toolsy QB's have failed because they did not have a tool box. There are red flags with Willis. At certain positions where the Giants have needs there is a difference between #5 and #25. Is Willis that much better than Desmond Ridder who could be there in Round 2?
Josh Allen fits in this category. How do you feel about the Giants passing on him?
Once again, Willis is not Allen. Allen was substantially bigger and if you watch his college film he was always looking to make plays down the field even when his first read is not open. He was scrambling so guys could get open. He had some accuracy issues, but that was more from trying to be a hero and trusting his arm strength too much. Willis, if his first read is not there, drops his eyes and starts running. The ability to read defenses is rudimentary at best. There were plenty of clips where he had guys open but was not going through progressions at all.
I will say in that draft I wanted Sam Darnold because I thought he could sit on the bench and learn from Eli Manning.
The bar is Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan (prime) type quality. You need to have a QB at least that good. Obviously Willis is nothing like those guys, but that's the minimum caliber of QB you need. The goal is Mahomes/Allen/Herbert.
Even if Willis had this range of outcomes, hes' still worth taking:
10%: Elite (Mahomes/Allen)
10%: Good (Stafford/Ryan caliber)
30%: Mixed Bag - say like an inconsistent Kyler Murray
50%: Bust (Jones-level or worse)
That is worth taking. Even at 10% elite, 10% good, that is such a valuable thing to have that those dice are worth rolling.
I don’t know why we are making 1st round picks so damn sacred. We’ve got an opportunity to get someone without trading up (as of now, not sure how high Willis has risen) who’s got a ton of upside. I was ok giving Jones 3 years, and we likely aren’t getting a return on that investment. Time to try again.
We have a crew with the Giants who have recently gone through this process but in the end I think they pass.
You don't throw away first rounders without a conviction on a QB.
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which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
His processing can be as bad as Jones' is, but it likely can't be much worse. Processing what he is seeing slowly, and often incorrectly, is the biggest flaw in Daniel Jones' game. If you think Daboll and Kafka can fix it in Jones, why not invest that effort in fixing it in a guy who is younger, cheaper and more talented?
Because we would be sacrificing at OL or EDGE to take a guy like Willis who is a complete crapshoot. What OT expected to not go in Round 1 is thought of as a starter this year? Who the heck will we have blocking for our QB? I have concerns about KT, but he, Jermaine Johnson, and Walker (Georgia DE) are a lot better than EDGE talent in Round 2 (you are looking at Drake Jackson or the South Carolina guy).
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which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
His processing can be as bad as Jones' is, but it likely can't be much worse. Processing what he is seeing slowly, and often incorrectly, is the biggest flaw in Daniel Jones' game. If you think Daboll and Kafka can fix it in Jones, why not invest that effort in fixing it in a guy who is younger, cheaper and more talented?
"it can't be worse" is beyond wrong.
Last year's #1 and #2 picks both had issues processing - and in Lawrence's case he was viewed as not just a good QB but perhaps the best 1OA QB in years. He had a 59% completion rate and 5 more INTs than TDs. Wilson looked totally lost.
And that's not an aberration - in recent prior year's plenty of P5 QBs have failed for exactly that reason - Rosen, Darnold, Haskins, Lock all had issues adjusting to the mental side of the NFL struggling with turnovers and an inability to run an offense with any consistency. And all were much more prolific passers against high quality competition than Willis.
Not everything is about Jones. Making the mental adjustment to the NFL for a QB is the hardest thing to project- as evidenced by the list of first round QBs above, almost all of whom have more career INTs than TDs and completion percentages well below their college stats.
The current Giants QB couldn't get a recruiting letter from Auburn.
If I'm not mistaken, he didn't get a scholarship offer from any D-I school. Originally was a walk-on at Duke, I believe.
I don't have a problem with gambling on a 2nd Round pick if it turns out a QB is not the guy, but we can't be screwing up more Top 7 picks if this team is going to go anywhere.
Very true about Allen. I remember reading about his background. He grew a lot after high school and he also excelled at basketball and baseball and never participated in any of the QB summer stuff so he was a total unknown. Pretty amazing where he is today.
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The current Giants QB couldn't get a recruiting letter from Auburn.
If I'm not mistaken, he didn't get a scholarship offer from any D-I school. Originally was a walk-on at Duke, I believe.
He was on his way to Princeton and then probably investment banking until David Cutcliffe took a shine to him.
We have a crew with the Giants who have recently gone through this process but in the end I think they pass.
You don't throw away first rounders without a conviction on a QB.
Urban Meyer didn't put Joe Burrow on the field because he had JT Barrett and Dwayne Haskins rated higher.
Tom Brady sat behind Brian Griese at Michigan.
Big college programs get the QB shockingly wrong quite a bit.
And later split time with Drew Henson
Agreed, although if the pick were bottom of the first round, I'd be more inclined to take a swing. But we have a chance with any of the players projected to us at 5 and 7. It's just amazing to me that people who are so critical of the Giants for overdrafting Jones are proposing the same thing with Willis. Almost no one has this guy projected at the top of the 1st. Most have him as a late first rounder. Everyone loves his big arm and his speed but there's a lot more that goes into being an NFL QB than that. Yesterday, while he wowed with his deep throws, he struggled mightily with short and intermediate throws either missing receivers by a number of yards or placing the the ball poorly. Those are the bread and butter of an offense and it does not look like he is able to make those throws.
Jones had (has) zero elite traits.
Take a step back and look at Jones coming out of Duke and Willis coming out of Liberty. Which player looks like they have + traits? I know we all want an awesome pocket passer with elite game processing but that's such a rarity these days. WE know Jones doesn't have that, but we definitively know Willis' athletic ability and what it allows him to do.
Just because the last guy burned you doesn't mean you should scrap the idea of drafting an imperfect player in the top 10 entirely. The only way to learn from your mistakes is to figure out why it happened - and it wasn't because we made a mistake drafting a project at 6, we picked the wrong project.
We have a crew with the Giants who have recently gone through this process but in the end I think they pass.
You don't throw away first rounders without a conviction on a QB.
So is Jermaine Johnson in the red flag territory because he left Georgia for Florida St?
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I am with you about wasting first rounders. Imagine our last championship with Nicks and JPP who were late teen picks. Not we have two top 10.
Agreed, although if the pick were bottom of the first round, I'd be more inclined to take a swing. But we have a chance with any of the players projected to us at 5 and 7. It's just amazing to me that people who are so critical of the Giants for overdrafting Jones are proposing the same thing with Willis. Almost no one has this guy projected at the top of the 1st. Most have him as a late first rounder. Everyone loves his big arm and his speed but there's a lot more that goes into being an NFL QB than that. Yesterday, while he wowed with his deep throws, he struggled mightily with short and intermediate throws either missing receivers by a number of yards or placing the the ball poorly. Those are the bread and butter of an offense and it does not look like he is able to make those throws.
the person making the pick makes a big difference. I have infinitely more faith in JS' evaluation and decision if he takes Willis, compared to DG taking Jones
Brady was never a top tool type of player. His mind and ultra competitive mindset were his greatest assets. No idea what went into Urban's though process.
Schoen is undoubtedly sitting down with Daboll, Kafka and Tierney and talking through all the QB prospects to grade them. If those guys say he is raw but his shortcomings are fixable with coaching then I think you take him if he is there at #5 and don't look back. If they say he is a project and some of his flaws will be difficult to correct, you let him slide by.
What you can't do is say step 1 is fixing the line and step 2 is getting a QB. You also can't say "we can't miss on this pick so we have to pick someone safe with a really high floor." None of the guys we may be taking at 5 at other positions is a guy you rarely get a shot at. They are in every draft.
Brady was never a top tool type of player. His mind and ultra competitive mindset were his greatest assets. No idea what went into Urban's though process.
Willis is raw now, I can’t imagine how raw he was when he first got to Auburn. The SEC isn’t a place where the teams at the top are going to spend time developing projects. They are constantly in win now mode. Their jobs depend on it literally on a year to year basis. Just ask Justin Fields, who couldn’t beat out Jake Fromm…
Brady was never a top tool type of player. His mind and ultra competitive mindset were his greatest assets. No idea what went into Urban's though process.
I don't think it is surprising at all. I don't believe most people look at Malzahn as one of the top coaches at the college level. His time at Auburn has mostly been "meh" and he has never developed an NFL QB there.
I don't think him just being dead wrong - or Willis simply maturing later - is anything that is particularly puzzling.
It’s not something he’d comment on in public, so this is hypothetical, but it’s also entirely possible.
there seems to be an extreme unawareness re the general bust rate of QBs, even those more accomplished from p5 schools, no less the questions that exist when a guy transferred from a p5 to play at liberty and by most accounts has never played in an offense that resembles what's asked at the NFL level. any first round qb has risks. willis has risks to a 2nd or 3rd power that simply can't be quantified by fans because they are intangible. that's not to say he can't succeed but to deny the extra risk is eyes wide shut.
Easy bro - Go Blue Hens!!! :)
Take a step back and look at Jones coming out of Duke and Willis coming out of Liberty. Which player looks like they have + traits? I know we all want an awesome pocket passer with elite game processing but that's such a rarity these days. WE know Jones doesn't have that, but we definitively know Willis' athletic ability and what it allows him to do.
Just because the last guy burned you doesn't mean you should scrap the idea of drafting an imperfect player in the top 10 entirely. The only way to learn from your mistakes is to figure out why it happened - and it wasn't because we made a mistake drafting a project at 6, we picked the wrong project.
I'm not saying don't draft Willis because we drafted Jones. My point is that I see a a guy with a big arm and lots of other negatives. Some may be fixed, but others may not. Everyone points to Allen improving but he is an outlier. Most QBs with accuracy issues continue to have those issues in the NFL. I understand. We all want the QB position fixed. But don't be the guy who thinks a ham sandwich is a filet just because he's starving. There's other ways to fix this team. Getting top end taken on the OL and ER would help immensely. Just because we don't pick a QB this year, doesn't mean talent won't be available next year.
Willis is raw now, I can’t imagine how raw he was when he first got to Auburn. The SEC isn’t a place where the teams at the top are going to spend time developing projects. They are constantly in win now mode. Their jobs depend on it literally on a year to year basis. Just ask Justin Fields, who couldn’t beat out Jake Fromm…
It's also not as if Auburn had a complete bum playing QB when Willis arrived. They had Jarrett Stidham coming in as a transfer who ultimately won the job over Sean White and had Auburn at 10-2 in the SEC Championship game.
This is also the answer to a question about why Willis didn't run a more complete offense when he went to Liberty. He arrived at the same time as Hugh Freeze did, and had two years of eligibility left - you put in an offense that allows you to win games based on the QBs raw skills.
If you watch what Oregon did with Justin Herbert, they didn't even come close to maximizing his ability either.
is shitty whataboutism. Jermaine Johnson transferred from UGA because he was competing for playing time with like 5 other guys who are potential first round picks - some who will go lower than they should (and lower than him) because they simply didn't get prominent roles bc of all the talent around them. he transferred to a p5 team where he was able to play full time and he put up the kind of season he needed to get himself on the map.
and because 1+1=3 Jermaine Johnson's sensible decision to transfer of course justifies Malik Willis for being unable to beat out Bo Nix.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
We shouldn't really be comparing anyone to Jones but to be fair here, Jones played MUCH tougher competition when at Duke and possessed/displayed traits like reading defenses and multiple reads where as Willis has not. So that statement about Willis having more tools is false. He has a stronger arm (big deal) and probably has the twitchy running over Jones too. He can't read a defense yet. He played in a schoolyard type offense, let's be honest here.
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has more tools than Jones and it isn't really that close. Jones is taller.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
We shouldn't really be comparing anyone to Jones but to be fair here, Jones played MUCH tougher competition when at Duke and possessed/displayed traits like reading defenses and multiple reads where as Willis has not. So that statement about Willis having more tools is false. He has a stronger arm (big deal) and probably has the twitchy running over Jones too. He can't read a defense yet. He played in a schoolyard type offense, let's be honest here.
Daniel Jones does not effectively read defenses or go through progressions.
At least Willis hasn't been asked to do it, so it's an unknown.
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Couldn’t start for Auburn just remember.
The current Giants QB couldn't get a recruiting letter from Auburn.
Touche!
ok how about justifying it poorly?
"he can't be worse than Jones" (he most certainly can)
"big colleges got burrow and tom brady and jermaine johnson wrong" (for very different reasons)
"gus malzahn doesn't put qbs in the nfl" (he has)
again im not saying im against willis - id actually be pretty excited if they pick him because it means daboll has enough belief in him to bet his career as a HC on him. it would still be a hell of a gamble though.
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Just WOW!!!! You continue to astound. WOW!!!!!!!
I don't want to fail with Willis. Enough about Jones. If we fail with Willis it's going to look, feel and sound a lot worse than it did Jones because we will be 15 years into the wilderness.
It won't be more palatable at all. It will be worse.
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Willis and fail with his vast skill set than fail with Jones, and his limted skill set, for a fourth year.
I don't want to fail with Willis. Enough about Jones. If we fail with Willis it's going to look, feel and sound a lot worse than it did Jones because we will be 15 years into the wilderness.
It won't be more palatable at all. It will be worse.
No guts, no glory.
You get zero percent of the Mahomses and Allens that you don't draft
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In comment 15620544 bw in dc said:
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has more tools than Jones and it isn't really that close. Jones is taller.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
We shouldn't really be comparing anyone to Jones but to be fair here, Jones played MUCH tougher competition when at Duke and possessed/displayed traits like reading defenses and multiple reads where as Willis has not. So that statement about Willis having more tools is false. He has a stronger arm (big deal) and probably has the twitchy running over Jones too. He can't read a defense yet. He played in a schoolyard type offense, let's be honest here.
Daniel Jones does not effectively read defenses or go through progressions.
At least Willis hasn't been asked to do it, so it's an unknown.
I'm talking about college. Jones came into the NFL with an ability to read defenses.
Some of you are conjuring up all the wrong reasons as to why they should draft this kid. I might be talked into it, and I would be excited if these QB guru's with NYG liked and drafted Willis, but I sure as fuck ain't gonna be swayed because "it would be much nicer to fail with Willis than it was Jones"
This is a brutally crucial draft and phase we're entering in. If you think this regime can easily afford to draft the wrong QB at 5-7 you're out of your mind and not thinking clearly.
I saw someone say it's not as bad to draft the wrong QB as it is to miss out on the right one...ok...cool....but they both suck, horrible.
Jones came into the NFL with NFL ready talents. You want to ignore that and dispute it because you hate DG so much, fine, but it's a fact. Just because Jones has struggled now doesn't mean he wasn't doing things at Duke that NFL teams coveted. And that doesn't mean that Willis can't be the next Daunte Cullpepper (good version) --sure he can, and I can get behind picking him, but they better get it right because if he fails here, this regime likely won't survive.
It's a huge risk. Bigger than taking the OT or edge guy at 5-7. Some of you are sugar coating the risk. Stop.
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In comment 15620544 bw in dc said:
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has more tools than Jones and it isn't really that close. Jones is taller.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
We shouldn't really be comparing anyone to Jones but to be fair here, Jones played MUCH tougher competition when at Duke and possessed/displayed traits like reading defenses and multiple reads where as Willis has not. So that statement about Willis having more tools is false. He has a stronger arm (big deal) and probably has the twitchy running over Jones too. He can't read a defense yet. He played in a schoolyard type offense, let's be honest here.
Daniel Jones does not effectively read defenses or go through progressions.
At least Willis hasn't been asked to do it, so it's an unknown.
Or maybe he hasn't been asked to do it because he can't. There are red flags here that require further investigation and you won't get that at the combine.
there seems to be an extreme unawareness re the general bust rate of QBs, even those more accomplished from p5 schools, no less the questions that exist when a guy transferred from a p5 to play at liberty and by most accounts has never played in an offense that resembles what's asked at the NFL level. any first round qb has risks. willis has risks to a 2nd or 3rd power that simply can't be quantified by fans because they are intangible. that's not to say he can't succeed but to deny the extra risk is eyes wide shut.
Yeah, he did a great job as the OC when his program bought him the top recruit in the country. Really created a masterpiece from the rough clay of Cam Newton.
And Stidham? We're talking about NFL QBs here. Is Stidham who you intend to use as an example of a success story? Willis said he was immature when he was at Auburn and transferred to get a fresh start. I don't think anyone would suggest with a straight face that Bo Nix is a better QB (who by the way also transferred from Auburn).
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has more tools than Jones and it isn't really that close. Jones is taller.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
We shouldn't really be comparing anyone to Jones but to be fair here, Jones played MUCH tougher competition when at Duke and possessed/displayed traits like reading defenses and multiple reads where as Willis has not. So that statement about Willis having more tools is false. He has a stronger arm (big deal) and probably has the twitchy running over Jones too. He can't read a defense yet. He played in a schoolyard type offense, let's be honest here.
Did Willis play with great talent at Liberty?
Did you know he ran for 1,800+ yards and 27 rushing TDs the last two years? And he threw for 47 TD passes. So he was a scoring machine.
I really don't know - did Jones demonstrate he could go through multiple reads at Duke? He did play with a better OC/QB coach in Cutcliffe. Despite all of that great coaching, Jones only completed 60% of his passes over three years as a starter. He broke 20 TDs 1X.
I concede Willis is raw. But if someone can trim that fat, there may be a great fillet mignon there. Because you just can't teach those physical skills - arm, speed, quickness and body type.
or there wasn't a long line of schools looking to offer a 3 star prospect who fell behind 2 underclassman a spot? there are a lot of guys who enter the transfer portal and sit there for a long time waiting for someone to give them a spot.
it's not uncommon for players to transfer to coaches who recruited them previously as Hugh Freeze did.
Former Auburn QB Malik Willis makes transfer decision, will play for Hugh Freeze - ( New Window )
It was absolutely for football reasons. Here is a story talking about it...
There was a time during the offseason where it appeared Freeze was close to joining Gus Malzahn’s Auburn staff as the program’s new offensive coordinator and Willis was poised to take over for Jarrett Stidham as the starting quarterback on The Plains heading into the 2019 season. Neither of those things occurred but that won’t stop Freeze and Willis from joining forces this fall.
That’s because Willis is planning on transferring to Liberty, where Freeze took over as head coach this offseason. This news was first reported by Benjamin Wolk, who formerly covered Auburn for Rivals. Wolk is also reporting that Willis will apply for a waiver in order to play immediately for Liberty this season.
Entering the offseason, the junior signal-caller had the most experience of any quarterback on Auburn’s roster but following the conclusion of spring practice, Malzahn announced either redshirt freshman Joey Gatewood or true freshman Bo Nix would start for the Tigers in the opener against Oregon. That decision led Willis to explore his options via the NCAA transfer portal.
Did Willis play with great talent at Liberty?
Did you know he ran for 1,800+ yards and 27 rushing TDs the last two years? And he threw for 47 TD passes. So he was a scoring machine.
I really don't know - did Jones demonstrate he could go through multiple reads at Duke? He did play with a better OC/QB coach in Cutcliffe. Despite all of that great coaching, Jones only completed 60% of his passes over three years as a starter. He broke 20 TDs 1X.
I concede Willis is raw. But if someone can trim that fat, there may be a great fillet mignon there. Because you just can't teach those physical skills - arm, speed, quickness and body type.
Daniel Jones has been getting high level individual coaching as a QB since he was in high school.
Malik Willis started playing QB as a junior in HS.
If Schoen and Daboll believe Willis is coachable, it's a no-brainer to take a risk on his talent.
Some people here love the "safe" pick, as if it's not possible for a OL or EDGE to bust, and as if it's going to be easy to "find" a QB next year. Or the year after.
Truthfully, I think most of those opinions are based upon the hope that Daniel Jones becomes a better QB than he's ever been in his life.
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that's also a pretty bizarre way to try to vindicate a player for not performing - it's Malzahn's fault for Willis not beating out Bo Nix (now in the transfer portal)? How is that not a viable concern? It is very different from Burrow being behind a record breaking first rounder in Haskins or Hurts/Mayfield transferring out because of other first rounders like Tua/Mahomes.
there seems to be an extreme unawareness re the general bust rate of QBs, even those more accomplished from p5 schools, no less the questions that exist when a guy transferred from a p5 to play at liberty and by most accounts has never played in an offense that resembles what's asked at the NFL level. any first round qb has risks. willis has risks to a 2nd or 3rd power that simply can't be quantified by fans because they are intangible. that's not to say he can't succeed but to deny the extra risk is eyes wide shut.
Yeah, he did a great job as the OC when his program bought him the top recruit in the country. Really created a masterpiece from the rough clay of Cam Newton.
And Stidham? We're talking about NFL QBs here. Is Stidham who you intend to use as an example of a success story? Willis said he was immature when he was at Auburn and transferred to get a fresh start. I don't think anyone would suggest with a straight face that Bo Nix is a better QB (who by the way also transferred from Auburn).
I honestly can't even follow what your point is. Plenty of top recruits don't go on to win national championships, get picked 1st overall, and go to multiple pro bowls. Cam Newton literally fits the fantasy your trying to portray on Willis transferring from UF/Meyer just like Burrow did OSU.
Stidham is a completely unremarkable talent who Mulzahn coached to the NFL.
What conceivable reason would he have had to not do everything he could to make it work with Malik Willis, just as he did extremely successfully with Cam Newton and to a much lesser degree with Stidham? And yet from the article I linked above:
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Everyone is assuming Willis transferred from Auburn for football reasons. If he did it for that reason, why didn’t he transfer to like Florida State or Illinois, just to pick two names that are more likely candidates than Liberty. That suggests the transfer wasn’t for football reasons.
It was absolutely for football reasons. Here is a story talking about it...
There was a time during the offseason where it appeared Freeze was close to joining Gus Malzahn’s Auburn staff as the program’s new offensive coordinator and Willis was poised to take over for Jarrett Stidham as the starting quarterback on The Plains heading into the 2019 season. Neither of those things occurred but that won’t stop Freeze and Willis from joining forces this fall.
That’s because Willis is planning on transferring to Liberty, where Freeze took over as head coach this offseason. This news was first reported by Benjamin Wolk, who formerly covered Auburn for Rivals. Wolk is also reporting that Willis will apply for a waiver in order to play immediately for Liberty this season.
Entering the offseason, the junior signal-caller had the most experience of any quarterback on Auburn’s roster but following the conclusion of spring practice, Malzahn announced either redshirt freshman Joey Gatewood or true freshman Bo Nix would start for the Tigers in the opener against Oregon. That decision led Willis to explore his options via the NCAA transfer portal.
great find.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills.
Link - ( New Window )
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Yay
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
Plenty of QB's have had that and busted. Nothing new with Willis. Willis is not Jackson. Willis is not ALlen.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Why is this bad? This sounds like good news to me.
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The #Giants are reportedly in love with Liberty QB Malik Willis.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Yay
Ok. Let’s roll!
I’m easily swayed
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
who disagreed with taking a deep dive into him?
most of the disagreement is re: the flimsy justifications for minimizing the risk.
and btw I could see Willis going as high as #2 to Detroit because he has that kind of physical talent (and by all accounts is a great kid).
but more likely I think he gets picked by an established coach that already has a veteran similar to Lance/SF last year - because that's the type of situation where the risk profile fits.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Check the source
Quote:
The #Giants are reportedly in love with Liberty QB Malik Willis.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Why is this bad? This sounds like good news to me.
Because he's not a good QB. Just because you can run and throw the ball a mile, and do well in interviews, doesn't make you a good QB. He threw a ton of INTs last season because of his inaccuracy and difficulty reading defenses.
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Willis is a prospect who flashes a combo of some of Josh Allen's arm traits and some of Lamar Jackson's running traits.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
who disagreed with taking a deep dive into him?
most of the disagreement is re: the flimsy justifications for minimizing the risk.
and btw I could see Willis going as high as #2 to Detroit because he has that kind of physical talent (and by all accounts is a great kid).
but more likely I think he gets picked by an established coach that already has a veteran similar to Lance/SF last year - because that's the type of situation where the risk profile fits.
Sure. By the end of this process Jax might get a haul and he goes number one.
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The #Giants are reportedly in love with Liberty QB Malik Willis.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Check the source
Stop sharing Wes Steinberg tweets! It's a completely BS account.
it's also exactly what you'd want to have out there if the hope is to generate interest from another team behind them to move up.
if they truly loved him that's probably the last thing they'd want out there publicly but if they still got him and loved him there's no downside in that scenario either. it's their jobs on the line not ours if they are wrong.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
In many instances, Willis' game today look a lot like it did when he was a senior here locally in GA in Roswell High School.
He was a great athlete running around with the ball then and he is now. He could make a lot of unplanned throws then and he can now. But none of us watching him ever considered him to be a future NFL QB, no less one drafted in the Top 10. A decent college player yes, but not much more.
To get to that level we are talking about, he was going to have add a far more sound and deeper QB-acumen to his game. And now 5 years later, it remains to be seen that he actually has.
I really hope he becomes a star...
Someone on twitter posted that in the chance the Giants pick a QB, that they should sit behind and learn from Jones. 90% of the comments were "learn from Jones, he's most likely better than him", that's another thing. Stop propping up Jones like he's Eli and that he's this bastion of QB wisdom to give a rookie. He's not a guy you create a QB controversy for, yes we need an OL, yes we need good playmakers, but if the FO feels they have potential franchise QB then you get him. Willis I think has the biggest upside and if Daboll can identify something to work with, then get him.
And a very impressive combination of intelligence, humility, and personality. Josh Allen is by all accounts a great leader and face of the franchise, and I'm sure Schoen and Daboll will prioritize that.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Oh crap? I read that as "Fuck yeah!"
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The #Giants are reportedly in love with Liberty QB Malik Willis.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Check the source
Shit, you're right. This guy... I can't say he's a parody account exactly, because his posts are never funny and certainly don't satirize anything, but he definitely appears to be something of a troll.
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Everyone is assuming Willis transferred from Auburn for football reasons. If he did it for that reason, why didn’t he transfer to like Florida State or Illinois, just to pick two names that are more likely candidates than Liberty. That suggests the transfer wasn’t for football reasons.
It was absolutely for football reasons. Here is a story talking about it...
There was a time during the offseason where it appeared Freeze was close to joining Gus Malzahn’s Auburn staff as the program’s new offensive coordinator and Willis was poised to take over for Jarrett Stidham as the starting quarterback on The Plains heading into the 2019 season. Neither of those things occurred but that won’t stop Freeze and Willis from joining forces this fall.
That’s because Willis is planning on transferring to Liberty, where Freeze took over as head coach this offseason. This news was first reported by Benjamin Wolk, who formerly covered Auburn for Rivals. Wolk is also reporting that Willis will apply for a waiver in order to play immediately for Liberty this season.
Entering the offseason, the junior signal-caller had the most experience of any quarterback on Auburn’s roster but following the conclusion of spring practice, Malzahn announced either redshirt freshman Joey Gatewood or true freshman Bo Nix would start for the Tigers in the opener against Oregon. That decision led Willis to explore his options via the NCAA transfer portal.
Let me add this as well. Nix was a 5-star recruit and was a legacy. His father Patrick played QB for Auburn and in the early 90s. He was the starter when Auburn went undefeated in '93 but couldn't vie for the NC because of probation.
Trust me, this was a HUGE factor why Nix got the nod over Willis.
you bet...
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In comment 15620764 jeff57 said:
Quote:
The #Giants are reportedly in love with Liberty QB Malik Willis.
Officials say he blew them away at the combine and that he has by far the highest ceiling of any QB in the draft.
GM Joe Schoen is a big fan and heavily scouted Willis while he was still with the Bills. Link - ( New Window )
Check the source
Shit, you're right. This guy... I can't say he's a parody account exactly, because his posts are never funny and certainly don't satirize anything, but he definitely appears to be something of a troll.
He's neither funny nor very interesting. Just seems to be enjoying putting out fake bullshit that's somewhere in between hoping to go viral. Annoying account.
You may now disregard the other posts in this thread
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
Otherwise, in the right hands and program, Willis looks like the sky is his limit.
Here is the vital piece people are overlooking - Willis is great off-script. He can make incredible throws on the run and he is a spectacular runner. Those are incredible assets in today's game.
I'd rather take Willis lower in the first, but I would not balk if we rolled the dice at 5 or 7. Picking in the lottery is all about athleticism and plus tools. Willis has those.
If that were true, what should they do?
Let no one know and say Daniel Jones is the guy.
Right?
If they loved Willis at 5, it would be the least intelligent thing possible to let anyone know.
Remember Mahomes?
I am not sayin Willis is Mahomes. Don't get it twisted.
It is impossible for Schoen and Daboll not to notice that Jones lack of production cost the last guys their jobs.
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
you seem to think all decisions have the same degree of risk. i disagree.
not sure why you think i put so much stock in malzahn - I didn't bring him up, I just think it's a farcical argument to pretend there were external circumstances at Auburn that stood in the way of Willis succeeding. He had a capable offensive coach who literally coached a first overall running QB to a national championship and more seniority than the 2 underclassmen QBs who beat him out. Why make false equivalencies to Burrow or weak excuses for that?
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is as likely as the Giants replacing Schoen next year with Gettleman..
I don't believe that at all. What if Schoen, Daboll and Kafka think Willis possess traits they can think they can dominate with?
If that were true, what should they do?
Let no one know and say Daniel Jones is the guy.
Right?
If they loved Willis at 5, it would be the least intelligent thing possible to let anyone know.
Remember Mahomes?
I am not sayin Willis is Mahomes. Don't get it twisted.
It is impossible for Schoen and Daboll not to notice that Jones lack of production cost the last guys their jobs.
Sorry, not a chance, imv
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
What if they get excited about Daniel Jones?
Quote:
Willis is a prospect who flashes a combo of some of Josh Allen's arm traits and some of Lamar Jackson's running traits.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
What if they get excited about Daniel Jones?
Why would they?
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In comment 15620762 Producer said:
Quote:
Willis is a prospect who flashes a combo of some of Josh Allen's arm traits and some of Lamar Jackson's running traits.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
What if they get excited about Daniel Jones?
Why would they?
Because maybe, just maybe, they know better and know more than you.
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I have to say I don't think I have ever seen someone who puts so much faith in Gus Malzahn's evaluation of teenagers when determining the plans for their NFL franchise.
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
you seem to think all decisions have the same degree of risk. i disagree.
not sure why you think i put so much stock in malzahn - I didn't bring him up, I just think it's a farcical argument to pretend there were external circumstances at Auburn that stood in the way of Willis succeeding. He had a capable offensive coach who literally coached a first overall running QB to a national championship and more seniority than the 2 underclassmen QBs who beat him out. Why make false equivalencies to Burrow or weak excuses for that?
You don't seem to understand what I am saying, so one last chance and then let's just agree to disagree.
I never said there were external circumstances that stood in the way of Willis succeeding. Not sure where you got that. He said was immature while at Auburn. That is very likely what stood in his way. Did Malzahn maybe just think Bo Nix was a better QB? Very possibly.
And Burrow is not at all a false equivalence. They were both QBs at top level D1 programs who were passed over at their programs for other QBs. It is literally the exact same situation. Was that viewed as a concern by anyone when we was drafted first overall? Not really. Why would Malzahn (who you can certainly argue does not have the offensive pedigree of Urban Meyer) passing him over create a flag for Willis?
I also never suggested that all decisions have the same risk. I said all prospects can bust. If everyone knew who the potential busts were nobody would pick them in the first round (yet several get picked by different teams every year).
If you want to debate, please use what I say instead of constructing your own strawmen and attributing them to me.
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In comment 15620892 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15620762 Producer said:
Quote:
Willis is a prospect who flashes a combo of some of Josh Allen's arm traits and some of Lamar Jackson's running traits.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
What if they get excited about Daniel Jones?
Why would they?
Because maybe, just maybe, they know better and know more than you.
If they know better and know more than me they'll simply have more reasons not to get excited about him. Jones's best chance of sticking around is for someone stupid to be making the decision.
Whose dupe are you? Why not just post under your original handle?
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I have to say I don't think I have ever seen someone who puts so much faith in Gus Malzahn's evaluation of teenagers when determining the plans for their NFL franchise.
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
you seem to think all decisions have the same degree of risk. i disagree.
not sure why you think i put so much stock in malzahn - I didn't bring him up, I just think it's a farcical argument to pretend there were external circumstances at Auburn that stood in the way of Willis succeeding. He had a capable offensive coach who literally coached a first overall running QB to a national championship and more seniority than the 2 underclassmen QBs who beat him out. Why make false equivalencies to Burrow or weak excuses for that?
Why Willis was beaten out by two underclassmen at Auburn is irrelevant. Maybe the other QBs ran the coach's system better. I have no issues with that. You judge Willis on the fundamentals and traits that can't be taught. Willis has a lot of qualities that you love to have in a QB but he is raw and will require a coach willing to design a system that will play to his skill sets. I have no problem if the Giants draft him at 5 or not at all.
And Burrow is not at all a false equivalence. They were both QBs at top level D1 programs who were passed over at their programs for other QBs. It is literally the exact same situation. Was that viewed as a concern by anyone when we was drafted first overall? Not really. Why would Malzahn (who you can certainly argue does not have the offensive pedigree of Urban Meyer) passing him over create a flag for Willis?
Joe Burrow is as false an equivalence as there can be.
Joe Burrow lost his job to Dwayne Haskins who went on to:
1. rewrite the OSU record book in a 13-1 season
2. come in 3rd in the Heisman and
3. get drafted in the first round
As amazing as Joe Burrow turned out there was zero shame in losing out to Dwayne Haskins. It's like saying Justin Jefferson was the 2nd best WR on his own team in college when that's only the case because Jamarr chase was on the other side.
Further, Burrow transferred to the best conference in CFB and proceeded to win the heisman, the national championship, and have what is perhaps the greatest single CFB season of all time. No exaggeration.
Willis lost out to 2 non-NFL caliber players and transferred to Liberty University where he never faced a ranked opponent.
In comment 15620929 Mike from Ohio said:
I also never suggested that all decisions have the same risk. I said all prospects can bust. If everyone knew who the potential busts were nobody would pick them in the first round (yet several get picked by different teams every year).
In comment 15620841 Mike from Ohio said:
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
sorry if I misunderstood but my point is that not every QB is the same risk.
a QB who performed more marginally against lower competition is more of a risk.
a QB who failed to beat out lesser talented players is more of a risk.
a QB who played in less of a pro style offense is more of a risk.
Willis' tools are great but he has a lot of risks relative to other recent first round prospects.
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
College and the NFL are different. Michigan thought Drew Henson was a better option than Brady at times. Ohio State thought Haskins was better than Burrow. It happens sometimes.
Why Willis was beaten out by two underclassmen at Auburn is irrelevant. Maybe the other QBs ran the coach's system better. I have no issues with that. You judge Willis on the fundamentals and traits that can't be taught. Willis has a lot of qualities that you love to have in a QB but he is raw and will require a coach willing to design a system that will play to his skill sets. I have no problem if the Giants draft him at 5 or not at all.
my own opinion is the same as yours - id have no problem passing on him and if they select him i'd be excited because the tools are exciting. if they do take him though it's as big of a gamble as you can take on a boom/bust profile though, and i don't think it's unfair to point that out. it would take massive balls for a first time coach like Daboll to trust his ability to develop on a player so raw in running the type of offense an NFL QB needs to run. For that reason I'd guess he ends up getting drafted by a more established coach/organization who fits that risk profile (like the 49ers/Lance last year).
those making assertions like "it cant be worse than Jones" or "every player is a risk" are deluding themselves of the increased risks (imo). at the senior bowl they said he had both the best reps of all the QBs and the worst reps of all QBs. so we have a highly boom/bust prospect at a position that starts as the riskiest to begin with where even polished p5 players routinely fail spectacularly (haskins, rosen, etc). the floor could be 'switch to another position'.
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In comment 15620916 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15620892 Brown_Hornet said:
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In comment 15620762 Producer said:
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Willis is a prospect who flashes a combo of some of Josh Allen's arm traits and some of Lamar Jackson's running traits.
How do you not take a deep dive into the kid.
And none of us are experts. If Daboll and Kafka get excited, so should we.
What if they get excited about Daniel Jones?
Why would they?
Because maybe, just maybe, they know better and know more than you.
If they know better and know more than me they'll simply have more reasons not to get excited about him. Jones's best chance of sticking around is for someone stupid to be making the decision.
Whose dupe are you? Why not just post under your original handle?
Again you now think you can analyze better than the current GM and HC. How did you your belief that Glennon was better than DJ. You were slightly off on that analysis. As I have said multiple times to you I am not a dupe but you are just a dolt.
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is as likely as the Giants replacing Schoen next year with Gettleman..
I don't believe that at all. What if Schoen, Daboll and Kafka think Willis possess traits they can think they can dominate with?
If that were true, what should they do?
Let no one know and say Daniel Jones is the guy.
Right?
If they loved Willis at 5, it would be the least intelligent thing possible to let anyone know.
Remember Mahomes?
I am not sayin Willis is Mahomes. Don't get it twisted.
It is impossible for Schoen and Daboll not to notice that Jones lack of production cost the last guys their jobs.
I swear you and Terps are on in the same. The OL is why you can not tell if our WR's are any good, or our running is back due to the RB or is it the OL that as soon as the ball is handed to them they have no wear to go. It also does not allow you you see the real talent of the QB if he has any if he is constantly throwing from his back. Fix the OL then start plugging in skill players. This is football 101. Why is this so hard for some to comprehend?
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In comment 15620811 Big Blue '56 said:
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is as likely as the Giants replacing Schoen next year with Gettleman..
I don't believe that at all. What if Schoen, Daboll and Kafka think Willis possess traits they can think they can dominate with?
If that were true, what should they do?
Let no one know and say Daniel Jones is the guy.
Right?
If they loved Willis at 5, it would be the least intelligent thing possible to let anyone know.
Remember Mahomes?
I am not sayin Willis is Mahomes. Don't get it twisted.
It is impossible for Schoen and Daboll not to notice that Jones lack of production cost the last guys their jobs.
I swear you and Terps are on in the same. The OL is why you can not tell if our WR's are any good, or our running is back due to the RB or is it the OL that as soon as the ball is handed to them they have no wear to go. It also does not allow you you see the real talent of the QB if he has any if he is constantly throwing from his back. Fix the OL then start plugging in skill players. This is football 101. Why is this so hard for some to comprehend?
Because it isn't entirely true that you can't isolate QB traits across three seasons of NFL football even though the line is bad. There is a lot you can tell about a QB if you watch the tape. Now can the QB become a winner with his traits when the line gets fixed, is another question. And how far can he go with his traits is yet another question. But Daniel Jones is who he is. And guys like Daboll et al know what they are looking at, and will decide if Jones is the kind of QB he wanted to build his offense around. Jones has limitations that are very apparent. He may be able to win with them, but those limitations are unlikely to change.
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I have to say I don't think I have ever seen someone who puts so much faith in Gus Malzahn's evaluation of teenagers when determining the plans for their NFL franchise.
Willis has a ton of physical talent and was recruited to a top D1 school. He lost the chance to start and transferred to another program where he had enough success to likely be a first round NFL selection. By his own admission, he was immature when he was at Auburn. By all accounts, he is a smart kid who interviews very well and seems to have no off field concerns.
Being worried why Gus Malzahn did not select him as the starter several years ago seems far less concerning than why we spent the #6 overall selection on a guy who didn't even get recruited by D1 schools.
Every QB is a risk. Every position is a risk. I guess if you want to find concerning indicators you can do it with anyone, including QBs in the exact same position who went on to succeed in the NFL.
College and the NFL are different. Michigan thought Drew Henson was a better option than Brady at times. Ohio State thought Haskins was better than Burrow. It happens sometimes.
That was exactly the point I was making.
Again you now think you can analyze better than the current GM and HC. How did you your belief that Glennon was better than DJ. You were slightly off on that analysis. As I have said multiple times to you I am not a dupe but you are just a dolt.
Why do people keep saying anyone on this board thought Glennon was better than Jones? You should at least provide one example, instead of just saying, "I totally remember it."
He could be any one of four or five idiots. Which one is he?
IMO you get guys like Daboll and Kafka to try to turn a talent like this into a star. I'd be pretty jazzed if they took him but I'd prefer at 7 if they have a shot to take Ekwonu, Neal or Hamilton in that order.
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In comment 15620811 Big Blue '56 said:
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I swear you and Terps are on in the same. The OL is why you can not tell if our WR's are any good, or our running is back due to the RB or is it the OL that as soon as the ball is handed to them they have no wear to go. It also does not allow you you see the real talent of the QB if he has any if he is constantly throwing from his back. Fix the OL then start plugging in skill players. This is football 101. Why is this so hard for some to comprehend?
Is the OL a problem? Yes, but throughout history you have seen good QB's and good skill players perform at a high level without a good OL. The OL shouldn't be the default answer as to why the Giants offense stinks. Same goes to the QB.
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In comment 15620620 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15620612 Go Terps said:
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It's been said repeatedly this is a draft of red chip prospects, where the difference between #5 and #25 probably isn't that great.
What better draft to take a shot on a QB with blue chip tools?
Because plenty of toolsy QB's have failed because they did not have a tool box. There are red flags with Willis. At certain positions where the Giants have needs there is a difference between #5 and #25. Is Willis that much better than Desmond Ridder who could be there in Round 2?
Josh Allen fits in this category. How do you feel about the Giants passing on him?
Once again, Willis is not Allen. Allen was substantially bigger and if you watch his college film he was always looking to make plays down the field even when his first read is not open. He was scrambling so guys could get open. He had some accuracy issues, but that was more from trying to be a hero and trusting his arm strength too much. Willis, if his first read is not there, drops his eyes and starts running. The ability to read defenses is rudimentary at best. There were plenty of clips where he had guys open but was not going through progressions at all.
I will say in that draft I wanted Sam Darnold because I thought he could sit on the bench and learn from Eli Manning.
Your recitation of Willis' limitations are dead on. Willis is not Josh Allen. In addition to the positives you list for Allen, you can also add that at Wyoming Allen was a leader, a fearless player, not afraid to talk trash to the opposition, and Wyoming played a higher caliber of football opponents. I also vote pass on the Willis.
IMO you get guys like Daboll and Kafka to try to turn a talent like this into a star. I'd be pretty jazzed if they took him but I'd prefer at 7 if they have a shot to take Ekwonu, Neal or Hamilton in that order.
The “problem” is that Carolina has the 6th pick, needs a QB desperately, Willis plays in their backyard and evokes memories of Cam Newton. I think Willis is the 5 pick if the brain trust really likes him.
2) Based on the above, the QB who best fits Daboll and the Giants, is Carson Strong. Go do a deep dive on him and you'll find out why.
3) Not 1 person has brought up all the sacks that Willis takes. In 2021, this dude took 51 sacks to just 339 Pass Attempts. That is a sack rate of 13.1%. A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane. We've never seen a 13.1% Sack Rate over an entire season, ever. That's unheard of. QBs that take sacks in college, come into the NFL and...take a whole bunch of sacks. Sacks kill drives in the NFL.
Hard Pass.
2) Based on the above, the QB who best fits Daboll and the Giants, is Carson Strong. Go do a deep dive on him and you'll find out why.
3) Not 1 person has brought up all the sacks that Willis takes. In 2021, this dude took 51 sacks to just 339 Pass Attempts. That is a sack rate of 13.1%. A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane. We've never seen a 13.1% Sack Rate over an entire season, ever. That's unheard of. QBs that take sacks in college, come into the NFL and...take a whole bunch of sacks. Sacks kill drives in the NFL.
Hard Pass.
It’s incredibly apparent you didn’t see Liberty play this season. They had maybe the worst OL I’ve ever seen in the games I watched. I guess we can ding him for not being able to play all 5 positions on the OL while also playing QB, but aside from that this is why simply evaluating players based on stats is amateur hour.
And please stop with the Carson Strong nonsense. You’ve already started a thread on him. Keep your delusions there, please.
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1) Brian Daboll runs the Erhardt-Perkins Offense. It's the offense Tom Brady ran for 20 years in NE. Extremely complex offense that requires full-field reads, and for the QB to make all the protection calls and pass/run audibles. He was coaching Josh Allen to play like an athletic Tom Brady. Allen came from a pro-style offense at Wyoming. Willis is a guy you plug into the Jalen Hurts College Offense. He doesn't fit Daboll at all.
2) Based on the above, the QB who best fits Daboll and the Giants, is Carson Strong. Go do a deep dive on him and you'll find out why.
3) Not 1 person has brought up all the sacks that Willis takes. In 2021, this dude took 51 sacks to just 339 Pass Attempts. That is a sack rate of 13.1%. A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane. We've never seen a 13.1% Sack Rate over an entire season, ever. That's unheard of. QBs that take sacks in college, come into the NFL and...take a whole bunch of sacks. Sacks kill drives in the NFL.
Hard Pass.
It’s incredibly apparent you didn’t see Liberty play this season. They had maybe the worst OL I’ve ever seen in the games I watched. I guess we can ding him for not being able to play all 5 positions on the OL while also playing QB, but aside from that this is why simply evaluating players based on stats is amateur hour.
And please stop with the Carson Strong nonsense. You’ve already started a thread on him. Keep your delusions there, please.
Sacks are mostly driven by the play style of the QB, not the quality of the O-Line. Everyone should know that by now, we are in Year 2022.
Example:
Coming out, the red flag on Justin Fields: He converts an insanely high ratio of pressures to sacks.
In the NFL: Fields led the NFL in Sack Rate (as well as INT rate)
If you hold onto the ball in college and take sacks, guess what you do in the NFL? Hold onto the ball and take sacks.
This isn't rocket science.
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In comment 15621305 sdqih1 said:
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1) Brian Daboll runs the Erhardt-Perkins Offense. It's the offense Tom Brady ran for 20 years in NE. Extremely complex offense that requires full-field reads, and for the QB to make all the protection calls and pass/run audibles. He was coaching Josh Allen to play like an athletic Tom Brady. Allen came from a pro-style offense at Wyoming. Willis is a guy you plug into the Jalen Hurts College Offense. He doesn't fit Daboll at all.
2) Based on the above, the QB who best fits Daboll and the Giants, is Carson Strong. Go do a deep dive on him and you'll find out why.
3) Not 1 person has brought up all the sacks that Willis takes. In 2021, this dude took 51 sacks to just 339 Pass Attempts. That is a sack rate of 13.1%. A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane. We've never seen a 13.1% Sack Rate over an entire season, ever. That's unheard of. QBs that take sacks in college, come into the NFL and...take a whole bunch of sacks. Sacks kill drives in the NFL.
Hard Pass.
It’s incredibly apparent you didn’t see Liberty play this season. They had maybe the worst OL I’ve ever seen in the games I watched. I guess we can ding him for not being able to play all 5 positions on the OL while also playing QB, but aside from that this is why simply evaluating players based on stats is amateur hour.
And please stop with the Carson Strong nonsense. You’ve already started a thread on him. Keep your delusions there, please.
Sacks are mostly driven by the play style of the QB, not the quality of the O-Line. Everyone should know that by now, we are in Year 2022.
Example:
Coming out, the red flag on Justin Fields: He converts an insanely high ratio of pressures to sacks.
In the NFL: Fields led the NFL in Sack Rate (as well as INT rate)
If you hold onto the ball in college and take sacks, guess what you do in the NFL? Hold onto the ball and take sacks.
This isn't rocket science.
Based on what you said, Desmond Ridder actually sounds like best option.
Out of curiosity, what was the feedback on the Commanders message board when your registered and posted your propaganda there?
Out of curiosity, what was the feedback on the Commanders message board when your registered and posted your propaganda there?
So no direct response to the facts I just gave you?
Resorting to personal insults and name-calling?
Exactly what I figured since you know that I'm right.
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In comment 15621326 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 15621305 sdqih1 said:
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1) Brian Daboll runs the Erhardt-Perkins Offense. It's the offense Tom Brady ran for 20 years in NE. Extremely complex offense that requires full-field reads, and for the QB to make all the protection calls and pass/run audibles. He was coaching Josh Allen to play like an athletic Tom Brady. Allen came from a pro-style offense at Wyoming. Willis is a guy you plug into the Jalen Hurts College Offense. He doesn't fit Daboll at all.
2) Based on the above, the QB who best fits Daboll and the Giants, is Carson Strong. Go do a deep dive on him and you'll find out why.
3) Not 1 person has brought up all the sacks that Willis takes. In 2021, this dude took 51 sacks to just 339 Pass Attempts. That is a sack rate of 13.1%. A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane. We've never seen a 13.1% Sack Rate over an entire season, ever. That's unheard of. QBs that take sacks in college, come into the NFL and...take a whole bunch of sacks. Sacks kill drives in the NFL.
Hard Pass.
It’s incredibly apparent you didn’t see Liberty play this season. They had maybe the worst OL I’ve ever seen in the games I watched. I guess we can ding him for not being able to play all 5 positions on the OL while also playing QB, but aside from that this is why simply evaluating players based on stats is amateur hour.
And please stop with the Carson Strong nonsense. You’ve already started a thread on him. Keep your delusions there, please.
Sacks are mostly driven by the play style of the QB, not the quality of the O-Line. Everyone should know that by now, we are in Year 2022.
Example:
Coming out, the red flag on Justin Fields: He converts an insanely high ratio of pressures to sacks.
In the NFL: Fields led the NFL in Sack Rate (as well as INT rate)
If you hold onto the ball in college and take sacks, guess what you do in the NFL? Hold onto the ball and take sacks.
This isn't rocket science.
Based on what you said, Desmond Ridder actually sounds like best option.
Ridder is certainly better than Willis, I agree with that for sure.
A 13.1% Sack Rate is insane.
51 Sacks. 339 Pass Attempts.
A mind-numbing ratio.
A lot of that is Willis holding, holding, holding onto the ball. His play style lends itself to high sack totals. You take a sack on 1st down in the NFL, it's now 2nd-and-18 and you're most likely punting the ball back to the other offense. Drive killers.
Avoiding sacks = an underrated QB skill. Some have it, some don't.
Sacks machines in college = sack machines in the NFL. That is well documented and proven over decades.
Can you imagine the statue Carson Strong trying to function in that offense? That would be comical
Yep. I was going to comment to troll that while I think Willis is overrated here, he had a number of “sacks” that were designed runs or Willis not seeing his first read and tackled for 1-2 yard loss. It counts as a sack, but it also wasn’t an 8-10 yard loss because you had a statue back there.
Do you think the mods banned him because they are bored?
I agree. I am going to see how this Strong kid does during the draft process. Seems the knee is the biggest concern but a lot to like about his talent.
He presented some good arguments.
That is a weird hill to go have your account die on.
And Strong is a terrible gamble of a high round draft pick for a team that can't block. Though he could be a good later round flyer.
That is a weird hill to go have your account die on.
And Strong is a terrible gamble of a high round draft pick for a team that can't block. Though he could be a good later round flyer.
Even Duke Johnson fanboy lasted longer!