in either round 1 (after a trade down) or in round 2. Despite the resources committed to the the position by our buffoon former GM, our WRs might be the worst in the league.
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
And yes, this part of the offseason program is voluntary. But there’s also fan interest in attendance and those are two high-profile players with the most interest.
I’ll have full attendance and observations from tomorrow’s minicamp practice, which is open to reporters.
really a bad move by this guy to show such a lack of awareness.
For a guy who has accomplished exactly nothing like in this league he sure doesn’t seem to think making a positive impression on a new coaching staff is important
Nobody denying it's voluntary, but that's not the point. Someone committed to the team and who cares about winning is going to get their ass to the facility...ESPECIALLY when you have a new GM, new coach, and new system. We can try to minimize it all we want but those are the facts and it's really that simple.
Implicitly pressuring these guys who have the absolute
really a bad move by this guy to show such a lack of awareness.
For a guy who has accomplished exactly nothing like in this league he sure doesn’t seem to think making a positive impression on a new coaching staff is important
Absolutely agree with you here joe. These sessions are the first interactions these guys have with the new staff. It would only benefit players to be there. No-shows are puzzling and do display signs of non-commitment.
Nobody denying it's voluntary, but that's not the point. Someone committed to the team and who cares about winning is going to get their ass to the facility...ESPECIALLY when you have a new GM, new coach, and new system. We can try to minimize it all we want but those are the facts and it's really that simple.
But that’s undue pressure as I see it..Otherwise eliminate it under the next CBA. There should be no exceptions, overt or implicit, imo
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
he's clearly getting horrible advice from someone...
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
and serves as a good reminder of what's at stake rolling the dice on someone viewed as talented but maybe not fully serious about football - like Thibodeaux.
RE: Implicitly pressuring these guys who have the absolute
it's not so much the on-field work he is missing right now, but the classroom stuff. Now they can make sure he has the information (Schoen or Daboll alluded to that), but it's not the same.
it's not so much the on-field work he is missing right now, but the classroom stuff. Now they can make sure he has the information (Schoen or Daboll alluded to that), but it's not the same.
And considering how much he struggled with the playbook last year, he's not off to a good start with the new crew.
This mini camp is voluntary. However it is a good indicator of a player’s dedication to the team. No one is saying Toney should be punished. It is a voluntary practice. But with a new coach and new scheme, as stated before, it is in everyone’s best interest to show up, learn and bond with teammates. Toney is still a rookie and has much to learn.
I am so disappointed in Toney. He can still turn his career around and be a great receiver. But missing practice is not the best way to start. The CBA is a joke and with limited practices, players should show up. Not much can be done about it, though. It is his choice. I just don’t think he will have a long career with the Giants.
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
he's clearly getting horrible advice from someone...
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Yes that’s why this is a moot point and probably why he’s not here lol
The dartboard approach would've resulted in a better pick
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
+1
Not sure why people say they are disappointed in Toney...
He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
RE: RE: RE: I would have been surprised if Toney...
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
If he shows up and plays to his potential the "voluntary" workouts will be meanless.
This is alot of nothing right now, just fans and media making a big deal out of nothing. missing 3 days is not going to cost him the season.
The cap is already accounted for in that number I think
He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
Im agreeing with you, Im expecting Schoen to clear out some people after the draft is over, i'll be bummed if they dont
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
Sorry this does not make sense. Deconstruct it to what? You still have to field 53 players and a practice squad. Why cut off your nose to spite your face at this phase.
He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
This right here along with the majority of other responses. This guy and others need to be in camp, voluntary or not.
but actually its the continuation of a trend. This has been happening since he was drafted. The NFL is gull of great athletes. The ones who make it are the ones who love to play and work hard.
Couldn’t stay on field last year, and you’d think he’d want to be as close to team as possible with new playbook. His talent is legit, but he is not making great decisions. Careers in football are fleeting, and you need to maximize your time.
Couldn’t stay on field last year, and you’d think he’d want to be as close to team as possible with new playbook. His talent is legit, but he is not making great decisions. Careers in football are fleeting, and you need to maximize your time.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
I know nothing about his quality as a singer, but I don't think he is playing the odds. If BOTH his football and music careers implode, he's going to be bagging groceries.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I would have been surprised if Toney...
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
I am/was okay with the idea of incurring the most possible cap pain this year. Give Schoen and Daboll a mulligan for 2022 and essentially go with a JV squad. If the odds are fairly clear we aren't going to compete anyway than just use 2022 as a tryout year.
But you hit the nail on the head - we don't know how much Mara is still putting his fingers on the scale...
Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would have been surprised if Toney...
Sorry this does not make sense. Deconstruct it to what? You still have to field 53 players and a practice squad. Why cut off your nose to spite your face at this phase.
The Giants would be better off fielding 53 UDFAs on 1 year contracts than the roster they are going to field. It is untalented, thin, and expensive.
This is what I am talking about when I say Schoen inherited a sub-expansion team situation, and that 2022 is a teardown year. It's a roster full of bad draft picks and bad contracts - it takes a lot of resources just to unload that garbage.
That's what 2022 is about. And they won't even be able do it all in 2022.
The scope of the roster problem is as big as I can recall in the current CBA. Everything Gettleman did wasn't just wrong - it was heavily wrong.
If I'm Schoen I'm trading everything I can within the constraints of the salary cap. The return is irrelevant.
Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
Couldn’t stay on field last year, and you’d think he’d want to be as close to team as possible with new playbook. His talent is legit, but he is not making great decisions. Careers in football are fleeting, and you need to maximize your time.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
He can read the playbook from anywhere, it’s not that (some good stories out there on how easily he can read and process them) the problem is not showing your new coaches and teammates that you give a fuck
however this is not a good look. Not so much that he isn't a professional or anything like that, but it tells me that being great isn't his main prerogative. That's his right, most of these guys have other passions and just happen to be physically blessed, but its not a good sign if you are the giants. Its not a reason to trade or release or quit on his skills, but its a red flag for sure.
Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
This must be why the organization lost its mind at BBI for the clown show picture haha. This statement is too true and such a kick in the nuts, it’s comical. Just have to hope most of the nonsense and clown-foolery is behind this organization and we can enjoy a bit of fresh air with the new GM and HC before perhaps they fail too? Ugh. Draft can’t get here fast enough.
There is a REASON why the NFL allows teams with new coaches to have this early mini-camp.
So the way I interepret this:
It's a privilege (current vol mini-camp) that is only offered to teams with new HC/GM etc...and if accurate, every player should want to participate if they want to be prepared and ready for the start of the season.
Hell, if it is a privilege, players and coaches should have a competitive advantage over other teams as a result of our new HC/GM situation. This should be a no brainer for players wanting to WIN.
Yep. And this is a from a guy less than one year in the league, who barely was available to play and did almost nothing other than underwhelm. The team's top investment in the draft.
Would never go in voluntarily. Basically, work for no pay. If he gets hurt in camp it shortens his career. Voluntary is voluntary. Why risk future paydays, you want these guys in camp, pay for them to be there. Plenty of bonuses can be given out for offseason workouts.
RE: Implicitly pressuring these guys who have the absolute
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
Suddenly ... trading him doesn't sound like a bad idea to me anymore lol.
But I think honestly they're going to just let it ride this year and then part ways with him after 2022.
In other words, not happening.
What if the entire team did this? What if no one showed up except the
coaches? Is that ok? Would fans be ok with that? Would the coaches and FO be ok with that? I didn't like the pick when they made it and like it even less now. Another wasted DG pick. Did they vet this guy? This team should fire every scout and just use Sy and listen to him. When I read Sy's comments on him that was enough for me. He's just plain not dedicated enough.
Couldn’t stay on field last year, and you’d think he’d want to be as close to team as possible with new playbook. His talent is legit, but he is not making great decisions. Careers in football are fleeting, and you need to maximize your time.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
I know nothing about his quality as a singer, but I don't think he is playing the odds. If BOTH his football and music careers implode, he's going to be bagging groceries.
Unless he's mismanaged his money, he's a millionaire from just his $7 million signing bonus.
coaches? Is that ok? Would fans be ok with that? Would the coaches and FO be ok with that? I didn't like the pick when they made it and like it even less now. Another wasted DG pick. Did they vet this guy? This team should fire every scout and just use Sy and listen to him. When I read Sy's comments on him that was enough for me. He's just plain not dedicated enough.
Judge and his scouts did going back to high school. Don’t tell everyone Sy wanted Barkley and wouldn’t have changed the pick I don’t want the “ i told you so” clowns to disappear
During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
Absolutely not. I said when he finally left I would not have been surprised if he went running from the offices in an Eagles Deseasn Jackson jersey laughing hysterically.
He wasn't just a bad GM. He was a complete disaster.
During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
If he shows up and plays to his potential the "voluntary" workouts will be meanless.
This is alot of nothing right now, just fans and media making a big deal out of nothing. missing 3 days is not going to cost him the season.
No.. When Leonard Williams and his HUGE salary shows up, it isn't nothing. When Kenny Golladay shows up, with his HUGE salary, it isn't nothing. When injured players show up, it isn't nothing.
During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful. Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about impact.
If Kadarius Toney was putting up numbers like Ja'Marr Chase did last year, this would be a non-issue. He is a guy who couldn't get on the field in the beginning of the year because he didn't learn the system, and then missed a bunch of games because he had a myriad of injuries. He is not a guy who has proven he can flip a switch and be productive (like LT). LT didn't really have room to get better. Toney has a shit ton of improvement to make to become an average receiver.
a fun thread to revisit in the future. There’s a lot of quotable material in here.
I've seen this argument made in the past a number of times in the last decade. It never has come back to bite people in the ass. Unfortunately.
Toney is very capable of having a great season, but there is a cost to falling behind.
I think I have read this same sentiment from a multitude of posters who no longer post here, primarily because they were wrong every time they posted it and now have no credibility when it comes to evaluating this team.
RE: RE: What if the entire team did this? What if no one showed up except the
coaches? Is that ok? Would fans be ok with that? Would the coaches and FO be ok with that? I didn't like the pick when they made it and like it even less now. Another wasted DG pick. Did they vet this guy? This team should fire every scout and just use Sy and listen to him. When I read Sy's comments on him that was enough for me. He's just plain not dedicated enough.
Judge and his scouts did going back to high school. Don’t tell everyone Sy wanted Barkley and wouldn’t have changed the pick I don’t want the “ i told you so” clowns to disappear
Two totally different cases. One's a head case that came with warnings. The other a talent that hasn't worked out because of least of all injuries. (And I questioned the Barkley pick at the time). But when a player comes with attitude warning signs and your gonna spend millions and you still do it. That's plain dumb.
During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful. Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about impact.
If Kadarius Toney was putting up numbers like Ja'Marr Chase did last year, this would be a non-issue. He is a guy who couldn't get on the field in the beginning of the year because he didn't learn the system, and then missed a bunch of games because he had a myriad of injuries. He is not a guy who has proven he can flip a switch and be productive (like LT). LT didn't really have room to get better. Toney has a shit ton of improvement to make to become an average receiver.
Wasn’t this exactly the case with OBJ? Hurt rookie year, fans wanted him gone then that all changed…until it didn’t.. Even when producing fans hated him before he got hurt. And we can say they weren’t the same but LT was a nightmare teammate to many im sure but we all looked the other way. Dose the matter they loved the game. Im not sure where I’m going with this lol but we can’t cut or trade him right now so let’s hope it clicks and he grows up
I know it comes off as me just whining and bitching about everything, but it has never made sense to me that working harder isn't better, especially in an era when the NFL/NFLPA have significantly regulated the number and quality of practice sessions. It's one of the reasons why developing young players has become so difficult because there are so few practice sessions. Now the preseason has been shortened.
If this was Daboll's third season and Toney had two solid seasons under his belt, I wouldn't care so much. I want to root for Toney, but he's making it hard to do so. Show us you give a shit!
He was extremely popular for much of his time here. Even during and after his meltdown against Carolina, fans here sided with him. They also looked the other way on him dog pissing on the pylon and doing things like attacking the kicker's net.
It seemed to me that fans started to turn on him when he criticized Manning right after he signed a huge contract with the Giants.
That people think this doesn’t matter. Does it mean he will be awful, no but it absolutely is a representation of his character and commitment to his team.. being there matters and it definitely would increase the chances of his and the teams success.
The thing with Beckham was that-for all the off the field nonsense-the man, by & large, delivered when his ass was on the feet, which was quite often. At this rate, I hope KT plays 1/2 the upcoming season.
those who are equating this with LT, I seem to remember when LT was holding out, I think he showed up incognito at camp as a fan as he was missing camp so much. He also crossed the picket line as a scab. The guy cared about football.
He was extremely popular for much of his time here. Even during and after his meltdown against Carolina, fans here sided with him. They also looked the other way on him dog pissing on the pylon and doing things like attacking the kicker's net.
It seemed to me that fans started to turn on him when he criticized Manning right after he signed a huge contract with the Giants.
i didn’t mean here i wasn’t here just what a lot of fans and some writers said early on and as time went on. Same shit with Shockey. Both went on to catch TDs in Super Bowls of course
after missing the first session a short time ago, to miss this one also is, to be as kind as possible, at least tone deaf. I can't imagine that the coaches, all dedicated football people and human, won't hold this against him. Nor should they, imo
after missing the first session a short time ago, to miss this one also is, to be as kind as possible, at least tone deaf. I can't imagine that the coaches, all dedicated football people and human, won't hold this against him. Nor should they, imo
It's not just that, Dugan says he's missed all of the last two weeks. If he comes makes most of the last seven weeks of the program, it's not a big deal. But if he skips all nine weeks, oh boy.
from the last regime. I don’t give a shit what they do one way or another at this point because, time and the new regime will siphon out the garbage. Hopefully.
are two completely different issues. The bottom line is he can be using this extra time to get to know his new coaches and familiarize with the system and he's not. It's perfectly within his rights to not show up, to not lead by example, to not get off on the right foot, to not hit the ground running, to not assert himself as a core player who is committed to turning around this dreadful fucking football team. He can choose to do all of those things. And we, conversely, can point out how goddamn stupid of him it is to do that.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Thanks. I just wish one of the beats got his #, called him, & just asked, 'Hey Kadarius. Any comment on why you're not at Quest?'
Meanwhile all of us are speculating as to why. Again, not a good look for this kid considering a new regime & everyone probably getting a fresh start. I don't know who-if anyone-is in this kid's ear, but he's not helping himself at all.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Reporters often contact players on their own. And they will say "sources say..."
Growing up, I remember beats having relationships with players & going directly to the player themselves instead of speculating/waiting to hear from the coach. Times have obviously changed.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Reporters often contact players on their own. And they will say "sources say..."
Do you really think Toney has built up a rapport with any of them so far that he trusts them ? I sure don’t . Last time he went through Twitter with his “training coach”’ and they were laughing at Skinner and being disrespectful. Just compete immature trash all around.
He’s not there because he doesn’t want to be. Doesn’t even feel the need to politic to get the fans/media off his back and just show his face to the new coaches that will be calling plays for him. That’s really the concerning part to me, so uninvested he won’t even go through the motions just for the sake of optics. It’s not the missed practice time.
It’s very odd. When it’s mandatory, it’s one thing after another. Then when it’s voluntary, he’s a no- show, every time. Yes I get it, not required and of course he’s not the only one in the league who doesn’t go to these things. But you would think when the man has missed so much time there would be greater incentive to get his ass in there. As some point. But there’s just not. Not with him. Maybe he has some very unique circumstances we don’t know about. But outside of that by all appearances this guy doesn’t give a shit, and that’s being optimistic.
Whoever this team puts their trust into, and I’m not talking the scouts, I’m talking whoever the consult with on the outside as references, etc (Cutcliffe, Alabama people, etc.) they need to cut the ties. These men have done us no favors.
He’s not there because he doesn’t want to be. Doesn’t even feel the need to politic to get the fans/media off his back and just show his face to the new coaches that will be calling plays for him. That’s really the concerning part to me, so uninvested he won’t even go through the motions just for the sake of optics. It’s not the missed practice time.
you think he would put on a face before he actually secured the bag. Then after he got paid he could pull this stuff.
I see a big difference here, I think he actually enjoys football and what the fuck is his brand without football? Toney just doesn’t have the heart or passion in it
It’s very odd. When it’s mandatory, it’s one thing after another. Then when it’s voluntary, he’s a no- show, every time. Yes I get it, not required and of course he’s not the only one in the league who doesn’t go to these things. But you would think when the man has missed so much time there would be greater incentive to get his ass in there. As some point. But there’s just not. Not with him. Maybe he has some very unique circumstances we don’t know about. But outside of that by all appearances this guy doesn’t give a shit, and that’s being optimistic.
Whoever this team puts their trust into, and I’m not talking the scouts, I’m talking whoever the consult with on the outside as references, etc (Cutcliffe, Alabama people, etc.) they need to cut the ties. These men have done us no favors.
As posted by you and others, all he has to do is make one appearance to optically satisfy the media/fans. There have been many players who have done this over the years. They make a few appearances (usually on a media day) and are gone.
What bugs me is that he has new bosses and doesn't seem to want to score points with them (or help his own cause). It's not a given he will start.
Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Yes, and the coach said he's fine with it as long as he hit the ground running when the mandatory period begins. As time passes what's the likelihood of that happening? We'll see I guess.
He’s not there because he doesn’t want to be. Doesn’t even feel the need to politic to get the fans/media off his back and just show his face to the new coaches that will be calling plays for him. That’s really the concerning part to me, so uninvested he won’t even go through the motions just for the sake of optics. It’s not the missed practice time.
you think he would put on a face before he actually secured the bag. Then after he got paid he could pull this stuff.
$14 M guaranteed he’s already got some nice cars and bling he Sports proudly
Has anyone asked Daboll or any other offensive coaches
Q: Last year Kadarius Toney wasn't really in the building for the spring, then he got injured. It was almost like he was sort of chasing the whole season. I'm wondering how big an offseason is this for him considering everything with kind of how it went last year with what you heard or have seen so far?
A: Yeah. I'd say this really with every player, it's a clean slate. There's a lot of information right now to consume for these players once we get through the introductions and the standards and the things like that, in terms of playbook wise. So, each person's going to be responsible to make sure that they're on top of the information, the coaches are here to help them and then we'll have a good spring there in terms of the weights. Then when we can get out on the field, keep it going from there.
Even the stuff that would force a pressure point on most people doesn’t seem to influence him. Something is off. The man is sketchy. I would be suprised if we don’t get more oddball negative news or worse with this guy at some point. I certainly hope not, but that’s how it often goes with people like that.
Q: To jump off that, for guys that don't show up since you're installing a new program, will they fall behind the eight ball by not being there? Do you view it as a negative if they're not here today?
A: No, I view it as it's voluntary. The guys that are here, we're going to work with, with the time allowed that we can work with them. When the other players are able to come in, you know, there's a variety of reasons here – we're on April 4th – but we'll work with them and catch them up as best we can.
Like I said before, I have no connection and give zero shits about anyone on this roster. If Toney makes it, it’s because he’s doing his job and that’s fine with me. If he doesn’t, oh well. Chalk up another to the old regime and keep moving forward.
INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
“Fun guy to watch,’’ Daboll said. “Quickness, speed, play-making ability, he was a guy we looked at when I was at Buffalo coming out of Florida, he made some really wild plays.’’
Daboll said he needs to get to know Toney, but he has no problem with Toney’s music endeavors.
“When you take over a new job and I hope that would be the case for any of us, you get a clean slate,’’ Daboll said. “Everybody’s new, we’re all starting from scratch here. And we’re gonna do this thing together. There will be certain expectations for the people in our building, one being a pro. You can give me 1,000 different definitions of what it means to be a pro. Being on time, working hard, all the things that we talk about. All these players and all the new coaches, including myself, it’s a clean slate.’’
INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
So KT is sending Daboll rap lyrics, but not showing up to 'volunary' mini camp to show he's committed/prove he's serious about football? I'm sure Daboll is over the moon...
new management has a team to build, and Toney is an inherited, unproven asset with reliability issues.
My gut says he’s not on the roster at the end of this season. I hope I’m wrong.
One last bone up the backside courtesy of Dave Gettleman. This kid is another DeAndre Baker street punk. Undisciplined and immature. He’ll never get it right either. Wasted pick. Micah Parsons looked pretty good though didn’t he?
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
seems more interested in his music career than football career? Is that a wrong take? I haven't listened to a second of his music, but I'm guessing he's more talented playing football than belting out songs.
One last bone up the backside courtesy of Dave Gettleman. This kid is another DeAndre Baker street punk. Undisciplined and immature. He’ll never get it right either. Wasted pick. Micah Parsons looked pretty good though didn’t he?
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
The problem is there was just a report that there are people inside the Giants building who think passing on Parsons was a good idea.
RE: I'm not fucking around, but this kid-based on his interaction with BD-
seems more interested in his music career than football career? Is that a wrong take? I haven't listened to a second of his music, but I'm guessing he's more talented playing football than belting out songs.
Based on what’s out there, you’d be correct in assuming that.
like Sterling Shepard and Evan Engram. That should right the ship.
I mean, I never got the feeling either guy didn't give 100% of their limited talents. Those tipped ball INTs Engram kept coughing up were due to him giving it all he had. If KT tried as hard as Engram we'd be in a better spot with him.
One last bone up the backside courtesy of Dave Gettleman. This kid is another DeAndre Baker street punk. Undisciplined and immature. He’ll never get it right either. Wasted pick. Micah Parsons looked pretty good though didn’t he?
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
Bakers charges were dropped and Toney actually came from a good family and isn’t some gang banger you seem to be alluding to. If he wants to express himself through music great, but he has a job to do and if that’s more important to you then he needs to go. It’s a shame because the game comes naturally to him
It just isn't a good look for KT to blow today off. Yeah, I get it is voluntary, but come on. I think the kid is super talented when healthy, but I wonder about what goes on between the ears.
IMO Toney will get to do whatever wants to in the NFL if he has half a dozen or so games a year like the one in Dallas last year. If the Giants cut him tomorrow teams would be lining up to sign him if he didn't have to clear waivers. I doubt he would make it past Jacksonville on the waiver wire.
Most of NFL players live in a completely different world than everyone on this thread. Their interests are different, their jobs are different and their values are different. I barely know what Toney looks like let alone know him but I guarantee you he doesn't give a flying f**k about what any fans think and he doesn't give a f**k about playing for the Giants. They're just paycheck.
I'm pretty sure most current professional athletes know the deal by now. They play for pay. The only thing that matters is providing for themselves and their families. They produce and win they're heroes with the fans. They go through tough times and "fans" s**t all over them in every way.
Toney is a kid. Football is his job. IMO he thinks he's so talented he's not afraid of owners or coaches. His actions say he thinks as long as he's healthy NFL teams will keep giving him chances and keep paying him.
He'll probably show up when has to, so he doesn't lose any money, and do as little as possible and keep trying to get out of practice. When someone shows you who they are don't doubt them.
If he scores two TDs in game 1 the people on this thread will be cheering the loudest.
IMO Toney will get to do whatever wants to in the NFL if he has half a dozen or so games a year like the one in Dallas last year. If the Giants cut him tomorrow teams would be lining up to sign him if he didn't have to clear waivers. I doubt he would make it past Jacksonville on the waiver wire.
Most of NFL players live in a completely different world than everyone on this thread. Their interests are different, their jobs are different and their values are different. I barely know what Toney looks like let alone know him but I guarantee you he doesn't give a flying f**k about what any fans think and he doesn't give a f**k about playing for the Giants. They're just paycheck.
I'm pretty sure most current professional athletes know the deal by now. They play for pay. The only thing that matters is providing for themselves and their families. They produce and win they're heroes with the fans. They go through tough times and "fans" s**t all over them in every way.
Toney is a kid. Football is his job. IMO he thinks he's so talented he's not afraid of owners or coaches. His actions say he thinks as long as he's healthy NFL teams will keep giving him chances and keep paying him.
He'll probably show up when has to, so he doesn't lose any money, and do as little as possible and keep trying to get out of practice. When someone shows you who they are don't doubt them.
If he scores two TDs in game 1 the people on this thread will be cheering the loudest.
Your post would resonate more if 90 percent of the team wasn't there.
And undoubtedly if he played like he did in the Dallas game, he'd get more slack. But he only did that in one of 17 games.
One last bone up the backside courtesy of Dave Gettleman. This kid is another DeAndre Baker street punk. Undisciplined and immature. He’ll never get it right either. Wasted pick. Micah Parsons looked pretty good though didn’t he?
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
Bakers charges were dropped and Toney actually came from a good family and isn’t some gang banger you seem to be alluding to. If he wants to express himself through music great, but he has a job to do and if that’s more important to you then he needs to go. It’s a shame because the game comes naturally to him
Baker may have gotten off, but the whole story was ugly and his involvement still stinks to high heaven. It's also noteworthy that the Giants dumped him immediately even though they have long history of looking the other way with criminal activity.
INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
RE: I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when we take a WR
in either round 1 (after a trade down) or in round 2. Despite the resources committed to the the position by our buffoon former GM, our WRs might be the worst in the league.
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
I wouldn't be shocked at all. It would tell me the front office views every receiver we have as a mistake made by previous regimes.
in either round 1 (after a trade down) or in round 2. Despite the resources committed to the the position by our buffoon former GM, our WRs might be the worst in the league.
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
I wouldn't be shocked at all. It would tell me the front office views every receiver we have as a mistake made by previous regimes.
What's that stat? Giants are #1 in WR salaries and #32 in WR TDs? Pretty much every receiver on the roster making above minimum is a mistake.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Complete Madden trade that wouldn’t work
of course we would all want everyone to be there with this new slate. However, it is voluntary and it's a long season. My hope for him, the team, and the fans is that it doesn't matter when it matters because the team is heads and tails way better than the last 5 years
Toney is nothing like 90% of the roster. He's shown us that he's wired differently and he has always gotten away with this behavior, not only has he not suffered any repercussions, he's been rewarded for it. I would be willing to bet that half the teams in the league had him off their draft boards period.
These quotes are from a companion article to the one linked below.
Quote:
Giants draft Florida’s Kadarius Toney in 1st round, getting Daniel Jones a speedy weapon ... with a lot of question marks
The Giants traded back from the 11th pick to No. 20 on Thursday night, with the expectation that general manager Dave Gettleman was targeting an edge rusher after missing out on Alabama wide receiver DeVonta Smith.
That was the wrong assumption.
Instead, the Giants stuck at wide receiver, picking speedy Florida weapon Kadarius Toney with the 20th pick.
It is a surprising pick considering how big of a need the Giants have at edge rusher and on the offensive line, but the organization made it a priority this offseason to get quarterback Daniel Jones more weapons.
PFF wrote in its scouting report that Toney has “rare ability with the ball in his hands.” He’s also a talented returner. There are a lot of non-football questions the Giants likely explored in their research.
So there are some questions to answer — especially after the Giants’ recent saga with since-cut cornerback DeAndre Baker — but Toney’s talent is certainly there.
This pick was an important one for Gettleman, who needs Jones to succeed in his third year as much as anyone in the organization. If Jones doesn’t make major strides in Year 3, there’s a decent chance Gettleman isn’t around anymore in 2022.
So, Gettleman is clearly putting all of his eggs in the Jones basket, and that’s been especially obvious based on all the moves the Giants have made to put more weapons around him.
The Giants went out in free agency and signed the top available wide receiver, giving Kenny Golladay — a Pro Bowler in 2019 — a massive four-year, $72 million contract. They also signed tight end Kyle Rudolph, one of the NFL’s better red zone threats, to a two-year, $12 million deal. For good measure, they brought in speedy wide receiver John Ross on a one-year deal.
Plus, the Giants will get back injured running back Saquon Barkley, and wide receivers Sterling Shepard and Darius Slayton, plus tight end Evan Engram, all are set to return.
Now, add Toney to the mix. It’s all of a sudden an embarrassment of riches for one of the worst passing attacks in the NFL from last season. Jones only threw 11 touchdowns in 14 games last year.
If that happens again, then something will have gone terribly wrong.
I found that an interesting read and almost a little unfair to Gettleman because it never mentions that John Mara was actually the person who publicly said the priority of the 2021 off season was getting Jones more weapons. It wasn't he "organization" it was the CEO owner.
Apparently everyone but the Giants knew who they were drafting in Toney.
There's a whole bunch of bravado quotes from Joe Judge in the linked article. They reflect very poorly on him reading them a year later. But this is money part of that article IMO.
Quote:
Director of college scouting Chris Pettit also said the Giants spent extra time speaking with Toney at the Senior Bowl, one of the few opportunities the organization had to get face-to-face time with the wide receiver due to all of the COVID-19 protocols teams had to follow this year. Pettit also said the Giants security staff looked into Toney’s background too.
And after all of that, the Giants felt comfortable enough to draft him.
“We spent time with him in person to get to know the person there and that continues,” Pettit said. “Listen, if there was a concern with him, he wouldn’t have been on our board.”
I hope Joe Schoen realizes how important it is to get certain people out of the building as soon as the draft is over but I'll bet it doesn't happen.
Toney is nothing like 90% of the roster. He's shown us that he's wired differently and he has always gotten away with this behavior, not only has he not suffered any repercussions, he's been rewarded for it. I would be willing to bet that half the teams in the league had him off their draft boards period.
These quotes are from a companion article to the one linked below.
Quote:
Giants draft Florida’s Kadarius Toney in 1st round, getting Daniel Jones a speedy weapon ... with a lot of question marks
The Giants traded back from the 11th pick to No. 20 on Thursday night, with the expectation that general manager Dave Gettleman was targeting an edge rusher after missing out on Alabama wide receiver DeVonta Smith.
That was the wrong assumption.
Instead, the Giants stuck at wide receiver, picking speedy Florida weapon Kadarius Toney with the 20th pick.
It is a surprising pick considering how big of a need the Giants have at edge rusher and on the offensive line, but the organization made it a priority this offseason to get quarterback Daniel Jones more weapons.
PFF wrote in its scouting report that Toney has “rare ability with the ball in his hands.” He’s also a talented returner. There are a lot of non-football questions the Giants likely explored in their research.
So there are some questions to answer — especially after the Giants’ recent saga with since-cut cornerback DeAndre Baker — but Toney’s talent is certainly there.
This pick was an important one for Gettleman, who needs Jones to succeed in his third year as much as anyone in the organization. If Jones doesn’t make major strides in Year 3, there’s a decent chance Gettleman isn’t around anymore in 2022.
So, Gettleman is clearly putting all of his eggs in the Jones basket, and that’s been especially obvious based on all the moves the Giants have made to put more weapons around him.
The Giants went out in free agency and signed the top available wide receiver, giving Kenny Golladay — a Pro Bowler in 2019 — a massive four-year, $72 million contract. They also signed tight end Kyle Rudolph, one of the NFL’s better red zone threats, to a two-year, $12 million deal. For good measure, they brought in speedy wide receiver John Ross on a one-year deal.
Plus, the Giants will get back injured running back Saquon Barkley, and wide receivers Sterling Shepard and Darius Slayton, plus tight end Evan Engram, all are set to return.
Now, add Toney to the mix. It’s all of a sudden an embarrassment of riches for one of the worst passing attacks in the NFL from last season. Jones only threw 11 touchdowns in 14 games last year.
If that happens again, then something will have gone terribly wrong.
I found that an interesting read and almost a little unfair to Gettleman because it never mentions that John Mara was actually the person who publicly said the priority of the 2021 off season was getting Jones more weapons. It wasn't he "organization" it was the CEO owner.
Apparently everyone but the Giants knew who they were drafting in Toney.
There's a whole bunch of bravado quotes from Joe Judge in the linked article. They reflect very poorly on him reading them a year later. But this is money part of that article IMO.
Quote:
Director of college scouting Chris Pettit also said the Giants spent extra time speaking with Toney at the Senior Bowl, one of the few opportunities the organization had to get face-to-face time with the wide receiver due to all of the COVID-19 protocols teams had to follow this year. Pettit also said the Giants security staff looked into Toney’s background too.
And after all of that, the Giants felt comfortable enough to draft him.
“We spent time with him in person to get to know the person there and that continues,” Pettit said. “Listen, if there was a concern with him, he wouldn’t have been on our board.”
I hope Joe Schoen realizes how important it is to get certain people out of the building as soon as the draft is over but I'll bet it doesn't happen. In Kadarius Toney, Giants drafted a player with off-field issues, but they still don’t think he’s the next DeAndre Baker - ( New Window )
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If da Joka lights it up on game day then I don’t a fuck about whether or not he in voluntary camp. If da Joka is a choka on game day then I also don’t give a fuck whether he in voluntary camp. Just make plays on game day Yung one. Just fucking win!
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
I get what you’re saying but, in reality, what kind of life lesson can he give the kid this early into his hiring here? Go too far one way, you piss off the fans for being to coddling, too far the other, you risk pissing off the locker room for being a hard ass. Once camp actually starts and things aren’t voluntary, I’d bet he starts bringing down the hammer.
Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
back your HC and show your on board. Now BD has to answer to this distraction.
I daboll thinks he's gonna get a free pass if Toney shits the bad, AFTER Daboll says it's cool for him to fuck off and play guitar hero, he's mistaken. So from one perspective Toney is already undermining Daboll and raising questions about his leadership skills/ability. Certainly has is my mind, I've seen this story many times before. Doesn't end well for either of them if it continues on the same trajectory.
back your HC and show your on board. Now BD has to answer to this distraction.
I daboll thinks he's gonna get a free pass if Toney shits the bad, AFTER Daboll says it's cool for him to fuck off and play guitar hero, he's mistaken. So from one perspective Toney is already undermining Daboll and raising questions about his leadership skills/ability. Certainly has is my mind, I've seen this story many times before. Doesn't end well for either of them if it continues on the same trajectory.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
back your HC and show your on board. Now BD has to answer to this distraction.
I daboll thinks he's gonna get a free pass if Toney shits the bad, AFTER Daboll says it's cool for him to fuck off and play guitar hero, he's mistaken. So from one perspective Toney is already undermining Daboll and raising questions about his leadership skills/ability. Certainly has is my mind, I've seen this story many times before. Doesn't end well for either of them if it continues on the same trajectory.
Guitar Hero? Really? Get a grip.
My bad, you're right, it's an insult to guitar Hero. Have you heard any of his music? I Have. He sounds like a stray cat on ketamine getting sexually molested.
But doesn't mean we can't question his commitment, professionalism, and decision-making.
If he looks around the WR room that he is part of
Golladay has multiple 1k yard seasons under his belt...
Shep is the longest tenured Giants and is about 5 months out from a torn achilles...
both of those guys have proven significantly more in this league than Toney has and made the decision to show up to the program and learning the new offense.
KT is making all the right moves to turn the fanbase against him, lose respect from his teammates, and get himself pushed down the depth chart..
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
Yeah, you're right, he don't need no stinkin' life lessons, he's banging, he got it goin' on. Ok ,lol. Guy is a clown ( er, excuse me, joka), who's done nothing and manged to get himself shit on before preseason even starts. Inspiring, I tell ya. He's gonna save us, watch, lol.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Reading all this, I'm disappointed in
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
Yeah, you're right, he don't need no stinkin' life lessons, he's banging, he got it goin' on. Ok ,lol. Guy is a clown ( er, excuse me, joka), who's done nothing and manged to get himself shit on before preseason even starts. Inspiring, I tell ya. He's gonna save us, watch, lol.
Imagine a first year head coach trying to teach a player a “life lesson” for missing a VOLUNTARY camp lol. Yes he’s an immature clown but we have no clue what was said between coach and him and that’s all that matters. Because you know…voluntary
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
If you conflate "lesson" with punishment, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to explain to the kid what the kid is ovbiously not seeing on his own. How this effects the kid, how it effects the team. Really, you think the coach's job is befriend a 22 YO player? Coaches are supposed to earn respect from young kids, not friendship. Great job? I'd say 75% of the people on this thread would disagree with you
Is that a voluntary mini camp is absolutely MANDATORY for a player who hasn't proven to be a full-time stud yet (ala LT or Strahan). How very Coughlin-like of all of you. On time is late, and voluntary is MANDATORY.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
Your assuming Deboll is bothered by this and it's setting him back.
You don't know their communication or what goes on behind the scenes.
It's the fans making these mini camps super important and he will never get right missing it.
It's hyperbole.
Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
Your assuming Deboll is bothered by this and it's setting him back.
You don't know their communication or what goes on behind the scenes.
It's the fans making these mini camps super important and he will never get right missing it.
It's hyperbole.
A coach MAY get away with allowing a different set of rules for a star player. Setting an example like this for a young, unproven nobody seems like career suicide for both. Pardon the hyperbole.
Is that a voluntary mini camp is absolutely MANDATORY for a player who hasn't proven to be a full-time stud yet (ala LT or Strahan). How very Coughlin-like of all of you. On time is late, and voluntary is MANDATORY.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
Exactly like it’s disappointing and a little disrespectful to the team and coaches but so was being late to meetings and smoking crack during games . He’s been in touch with Daboll and that’s all that matters. I have zero expectations for him but he’s actually a good kid from a good family. If it doesn’t work out so be it the new regime will move on,
is that after spending a year on the team, Toney apparently doesn't have a relationship with a veteran player on the team who could explain to him the right thing to do. Where are Shep and Barkley and Golladay and Jones on this? And ALL the veterans showed up for this voluntary session (with the obligatory nod to Bradberry) so they must think it was the right thing to do
is that after spending a year on the team, Toney apparently doesn't have a relationship with a veteran player on the team who could explain to him the right thing to do. Where are Shep and Barkley and Golladay and Jones on this? And ALL the veterans showed up for this voluntary session (with the obligatory nod to Bradberry) so they must think it was the right thing to do
Another reason why I couldn’t care less about who is on this current roster. We all could be wrong but, there just doesn’t seem to be an comradery with this group.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
If you conflate "lesson" with punishment, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to explain to the kid what the kid is ovbiously not seeing on his own. How this effects the kid, how it effects the team. Really, you think the coach's job is befriend a 22 YO player? Coaches are supposed to earn respect from young kids, not friendship. Great job? I'd say 75% of the people on this thread would disagree with you
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
You are mistaken. That is exactly what his "business" IS.
Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
Listen, he's a smart, creative, athletic gifted young man, with a will of his own and his own sense of purpose and his own goals, and ultimately his own agenda that goes with it.
He's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
Beyond that, I don't really think it's necessary to get shitty because intelligent perceptive long time fans may have already discerned this isn't going to work long term, they've seen it before. Fanbois, not so much.
I just don't see a guy who will put in what it takes to be a champion in the NFL, and it's not just the bad judgement. Buress had bad judgement, but played crippled, in agony, waiting for his opportunity to contribute his part to win a super bowl, one defined by team perseverance and commitment, and overcoming limitations. I would love to see Kadarious Toney go on such a journey, but for whatever his reasons are, I'm not seeing it here, with us.
That's on him, not us for seeing it, cause that's what it looks like, here, now.
Is that a voluntary mini camp is absolutely MANDATORY for a player who hasn't proven to be a full-time stud yet (ala LT or Strahan). How very Coughlin-like of all of you. On time is late, and voluntary is MANDATORY.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
Exactly like it’s disappointing and a little disrespectful to the team and coaches but so was being late to meetings and smoking crack during games . He’s been in touch with Daboll and that’s all that matters. I have zero expectations for him but he’s actually a good kid from a good family. If it doesn’t work out so be it the new regime will move on,
it's not all that matters. I begin to wonder just how much football you've actually watched. If it's a lot, if you're involved in the game, I'd ask for all that time, how did you learn so little? Was your focus somewhere else?
is that after spending a year on the team, Toney apparently doesn't have a relationship with a veteran player on the team who could explain to him the right thing to do. Where are Shep and Barkley and Golladay and Jones on this? And ALL the veterans showed up for this voluntary session (with the obligatory nod to Bradberry) so they must think it was the right thing to do
Another reason why I couldn’t care less about who is on this current roster. We all could be wrong but, there just doesn’t seem to be an comradery with this group.
You're not wrong there.
Look, it is his ‘right’ to stay away from this event.
But after his showing last season he also knows his decision will rain down more criticism on him. It’s the fact that he apparently does not care that’s troubling. He will be starting at the bottom of the list when he’s chasing his paycheck again. Those guys don’t hang around long. He doesn’t have to worry though because McDonalds can always use him. That is until he decides not to show up there either.
There are lots of idiots running around doing stupid things in the world today.
Work hard, play well, stay healthy, etc., I think he'll be cut/get an injury settlement and be gone. I also expect the Giants to draft a wide receiver in the first three rounds.
New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
THIS!!!
Why does Toney have to produce on the field? Plenty of players
on the offensive side of the ball get free passes around here.
Jones because QBs need time to develop and he flashes once r twice a year. Barkley because of the injuries and his OL stinks. The WRs because the game plans don't utilize them enough downfield. The OL because they keep changing OL Coaches or had to play next to Solder.
I begin to wonder just how much football you've actually watched. If it's a lot, if you're involved in the game, I'd ask for all that time, how did you learn so little? Was your focus somewhere else?
I've watched enough for 50 years to know what I don't know. And to know that what I don't know, you guys don't know either.
I've watched BBI (since 1994) enough to know that you guys overanalyze and wring your hands over EVERY LITTLE THING (especially at this time of year), without EVER having the full picture of what's going on inside the building.
You don't know what conversations KD had with the staff. You don't know whether he's rehabbing something. You don't know shit beyond he isn't there, and that sticks in your collective craws. Too bad.
Again, IF his absence doesn't sit well with the staff, if he's really a flake who doesn't care, that will be a data point they'll use moving forward.
Someone above made the Plax analogy, and that was a good one. There was no bigger flakey doofus than Plax, but on gameday, he was a beast. Hurt or not. Arguably the best WR in Giants history till the idiot shot himself. Some guys aren't "model team guys." Some are flakey doofuses, and Toney may well be one. The Giants will deal with that as long as he proves to be of value ON the field. Just like all teams do with talented players.
If he's more trouble than he's worth, that will play out as well. But it won't be because he missed a voluntary mini-camp.
but, he's got guaranteed income for 3 more years. Cap wise, he's untouchable this year. Arguably, all he has to do is show up in year three, and he'll get a nice second contract.
Assuming he has no reasonable excuse, this really means little for his career. It isn't a good look for whether he'll put in the effort to do much more than coast, but if at any point over the next 3 years he puts in the effort, his bank account will be fine IF his financial advisor is halfway competent. IF his financial advisor is halfway competent, he's set for life even if he quits football in 3 years.
RE: Implicitly pressuring these guys who have the absolute
negotiated right NOT TO BE THERE, is bullshit and makes a mockery of the agreed upon CBA agreements, imv.
I think both can be true: it's absolutely voluntary, no question about it; and it does say something about Toney that he chooses to skip the voluntary portion of the offseason when he could also choose not to skip these workouts. I would liken it to a student who is struggling in a class but also refuses to attend the professor's office hours or join a study group.
I suspect we're going to see more workout bonuses in most of the contracts that Schoen negotiates going forward (this is what Beane does in Buffalo), so there will be motivation for players to attend and extra cap space the following year if they don't.
RE: The cap is already accounted for in that number I think
I'm pretty comfortable concluding Toney is a dork for skipping practice, if the counter argument is you can't make me or the Giants have had other players dopey players who skipped things and their tenure ended in spectacular stupid fashions.
Daboll has to learn the skill of managing all types of players. This will be a good first test.
While I am not a fan of his specifically (can you tell?), I don't need to like certain NY Giants in order to root for them to do well on gameday. Never have...
Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
You are mistaken. That is exactly what his "business" IS.
We can agree to disagree. On that note how do we know what has been said between the two? Maybe he did give him some miraculous life lesson for missing a camp he wasn’t required to be at.
negotiated right NOT TO BE THERE, is bullshit and makes a mockery of the agreed upon CBA agreements, imv.
I think both can be true: it's absolutely voluntary, no question about it; and it does say something about Toney that he chooses to skip the voluntary portion of the offseason when he could also choose not to skip these workouts. I would liken it to a student who is struggling in a class but also refuses to attend the professor's office hours or join a study group.
I suspect we're going to see more workout bonuses in most of the contracts that Schoen negotiates going forward (this is what Beane does in Buffalo), so there will be motivation for players to attend and extra cap space the following year if they don't.
Totally different level, but we had our best summer participation (HS) this past summer and won the whole thing. Voluntary matters.
That said, if a guy shows up to pre-camp in shape, mentally focused and knows the playbook we can hit the ground running.
We see vague media reports and hear from frustrated fans...I'm rooting for the kid. Hopefully everything clicks for him.
Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
And while that's fair, we also have to note how poorly the whole team played not to mention the impact of OC Mastermind who's now out of the league completely.
This is not an ideal start for Toney. He had the benefit of the doubt from me in 2021 but in year 2 this is a disappointing first impression.
If he didn't have a spotty record of getting on the field when it's been mandatory. I've seen a lot of "who cares if he balls out when it matters" takes on here and on social. That's the problem, he's not out there when it matters and I don't think it's entirely been bad luck. This is consistent with his time at Florida too except when he needed to earn his first payday leading into the draft. Skipping these may be part of a pattern because there always seems to be a reason why he's not playing football.
Trade the loser for whatever you can get, his trade value will only go down from here. Expect injuries and drama. He will collect as much as he can for as little effort as possible. Expect many nagging injuries. Anytime you upset this player, he won't show up.
Trade the loser for whatever you can get, his trade value will only go down from here. Expect injuries and drama. He will collect as much as he can for as little effort as possible. Expect many nagging injuries. Anytime you upset this player, he won't show up.
Yeah I’m sure teams are lining up to trade for a “loser for no effort that’s always injured” right ?!?! Doesn’t matter what we would get look at the cap it’s not happening
That maybe he had a reason for not attending? Perhaps, there is singing we are unaware of (health, family, etc).i haven't seen any confirmation that there isn't
If he catches 3 TDs against the Eagles in a game this year, he can break into my house that night and punch my Uncle Eugene right in the face and I still wouldn't care.
That maybe he had a reason for not attending? Perhaps, there is singing we are unaware of (health, family, etc).i haven't seen any confirmation that there isn't
Curious what your view will be if there is not any other reason other than he chose not to attend simply because its "voluntary". IMO that indicates a lack of commitment to his craft. Does not matter if he is working out on his own. This was on the schedule and it's an opportunity to create a culture and connections with a new coaching staff and new teammates. Talent is one thing, commitment is another.
INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
Sometimes the totality of several separate instances represent a trend. Could there be extenuating circumstances that are keeping KT away from these minicamps? Absolutely. And could his failure to bring cleats that fit last year in the rookie minicamp have been an innocent mistake? Definitely. And could someone catch Covid twice in a few months while taking all the right precautions? Sure. And could a hard-working rookie just simply have bad luck with injuries? Totally. Is it understandable that a kid would lack the tact to stay uninvolved in the events of another player who cost someone their life? Yes.
INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
Sometimes the totality of several separate instances represent a trend. Could there be extenuating circumstances that are keeping KT away from these minicamps? Absolutely. And could his failure to bring cleats that fit last year in the rookie minicamp have been an innocent mistake? Definitely. And could someone catch Covid twice in a few months while taking all the right precautions? Sure. And could a hard-working rookie just simply have bad luck with injuries? Totally. Is it understandable that a kid would lack the tact to stay uninvolved in the events of another player who cost someone their life? Yes.
But all of it combined? He's a knucklehead.
Exactly and I’ll add to it…
The reason he wasn’t at the first set of workouts was because he was with a WR coach in Atlanta that proceedd to troll Skinner and laugh at concerned fans.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
Is that a voluntary mini camp is absolutely MANDATORY for a player who hasn't proven to be a full-time stud yet (ala LT or Strahan). How very Coughlin-like of all of you. On time is late, and voluntary is MANDATORY.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
No, I think the general consensus is that it's voluntary, and that the choice each player makes says a lot about each player's commitment to the team.
It's a team sport. You only get better by working together.
That maybe he had a reason for not attending? Perhaps, there is singing we are unaware of (health, family, etc).i haven't seen any confirmation that there isn't
The benefit of the doubt card is getting worn out. And its only been 11 months...
Work hard, play well, stay healthy, etc., I think he'll be cut/get an injury settlement and be gone. I also expect the Giants to draft a wide receiver in the first three rounds.
They can't afford to do either. He actually has them over a barrel in that sense. But they can make the depth chart a meritocracy and bury him at the bottom of it if he doesn't want to work.
or any entry-level call center that has had 15 grandparents pass away to keep taking days off.
If you've been on the management side of it, you know it when you see it.
no disagreement just 1 comment - the WR position tends to invite that personality type. it's a 1 on 1 position that's judged essentially by 1 individual's highlight plays.
Toney has the ability to make those highlight plays so we shouldn't totally lose sight of that, or the reality that grass may not be greener (deebo wants out, and diggs got traded from minny holding out, and on and on with examples from almost every year).
it's simply a judgement Daboll and Schoen will need to make whether or not the headache is worth it. And if it isn't pump him and dump him. I'd do that because i think his play style seems to invite injuries. that's my greater long term concern.
Again, you'd think Giants fans would understand by now good judgement, good decision making, putting in the extra effort, practicing, learning the system etc. are all in the player's and team's best interest.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
This is BBI, where a large portion of the contributors base decisions on a player's best games while minimizing or outright ignoring red flags and disappointing results.
Again, you'd think Giants fans would understand by now good judgement, good decision making, putting in the extra effort, practicing, learning the system etc. are all in the player's and team's best interest.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
sure but you play the hand you are dealt. he's a very talented player they have, the short term goals for both sides are aligned to get as much production as possible. there's no decision to make right now unless you are willing to throw away talent with no return (which is basically what Schoen said a month ago).
the bills paid a good return but they capitalized on another team's situation that was like this one, and even though Minnesota sold high and picked Jefferson they probably wish they had a do-over on that. their own pick was just 3 selections later so they could have had both.
Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
This is BBI, where a large portion of the contributors base decisions on a player's best games while minimizing or outright ignoring red flags and disappointing results.
i dont think anyone is ignoring the flags. just taking into account the reality there's likely not a good alternative right now. if i could get a top 50 pick for toney i think i'd do that, i just doubt that's the case.
Again, you'd think Giants fans would understand by now good judgement, good decision making, putting in the extra effort, practicing, learning the system etc. are all in the player's and team's best interest.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
Then his production last year was basically the same as that waste of space on the roster (Kenny Galloday)
the bills paid a good return but they capitalized on another team's situation that was like this one, and even though Minnesota sold high and picked Jefferson they probably wish they had a do-over on that. their own pick was just 3 selections later so they could have had both.
I'm not making an argument the Giants should or can do anything.
I also see almost no similarities to Diggs and Toney.
the bills paid a good return but they capitalized on another team's situation that was like this one, and even though Minnesota sold high and picked Jefferson they probably wish they had a do-over on that. their own pick was just 3 selections later so they could have had both.
I'm not making an argument the Giants should or can do anything.
I also see almost no similarities to Diggs and Toney.
we can not like what Toney is doing while acknowledging it's a common occurrence, especially among Wrs for whatever reason. remember Plax and Shockey training in Miami?
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
I'd trade them both to KC for picks # 29 and 94. Maybe a bit to much for KC though.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
I'd trade them both to KC for picks # 29 and 94. Maybe a bit to much for KC though.
A bit ? They wouldn’t give up either of those like not even close. At all
obviously Toney being younger he'll get the fan wrath for not being there, but seems like some fans care about this more than the players.
I generally agree that the sentiment against Toney is overblown, however Shep, Glowinski, and Martinez have been at the facility working out this offseason and Shep was in uniform yesterday too so these are likely excused absences or possibly even rehab related vs. not showing up at all (and not having a playbook).
I also see almost no similarities to Diggs and Toney.
we can not like what Toney is doing while acknowledging it's a common occurrence, especially among Wrs for whatever reason. remember Plax and Shockey training in Miami?
I was actually surprised in a good way to see Golladay participating. Receiver carousel turns as Stefon Diggs skips voluntary practices - ( New Window )
The difference in my view:
Diggs was an established player and emerging star, playing in the same offensen for a 5th year.
Toney is a 2nd year guy who couldn't get on the field, doesn't know the position well according to the previous staff, and is playing in a brand new system.
I hear you on the frequency guys skip stuff. He just seems like the last dude in the world who should be.
Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
All of these issues could be minor but he's a proven bonehead when you add it all up. Don't we all know people who constantly have shit going wrong in their lives but always have convenient excuses? Toney seems like one of those.
I'm rooting for Toney because he's one of the few potential exciting players we can watch this year. This stuff is disappointing. Washed away after a 100 yard game or two? Absolutely. But we don't have anything else to talk about.
Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
All of these issues could be minor but he's a proven bonehead when you add it all up. Don't we all know people who constantly have shit going wrong in their lives but always have convenient excuses? Toney seems like one of those.
I'm rooting for Toney because he's one of the few potential exciting players we can watch this year. This stuff is disappointing. Washed away after a 100 yard game or two? Absolutely. But we don't have anything else to talk about.
this is basically how i see it - and how i saw it last year when they surprisingly took him over moore. he seems destined to be frustrating, but he showed more talent than i expected and this org isnt in a good position to give up on talent right now. he hasn't done anything so bad to force the issue so i hope they can get a good year out of him and trade him before he does.
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
We're not tsalking about FORING him to attend. That's what you got from reading it? A demand for Daboll to FORCE him to attend? How about not blowing smoke up his ass about his shitty music while he boycotts team facilities?
Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
We're not tsalking about FORING him to attend. That's what you got from reading it? A demand for Daboll to FORCE him to attend? How about not blowing smoke up his ass about his shitty music while he boycotts team facilities?
Wait now he’s boycotting? That would imply there was a motive behind him not coming to optional camp. What is he trying to prove or want exactly?
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
✔
@DDuggan21
Replying to @DDuggan21
And yes, this part of the offseason program is voluntary. But there’s also fan interest in attendance and those are two high-profile players with the most interest.
I’ll have full attendance and observations from tomorrow’s minicamp practice, which is open to reporters.
For a guy who has accomplished exactly nothing like in this league he sure doesn’t seem to think making a positive impression on a new coaching staff is important
Nobody denying it's voluntary, but that's not the point. Someone committed to the team and who cares about winning is going to get their ass to the facility...ESPECIALLY when you have a new GM, new coach, and new system. We can try to minimize it all we want but those are the facts and it's really that simple.
For a guy who has accomplished exactly nothing like in this league he sure doesn’t seem to think making a positive impression on a new coaching staff is important
Absolutely agree with you here joe. These sessions are the first interactions these guys have with the new staff. It would only benefit players to be there. No-shows are puzzling and do display signs of non-commitment.
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Otherwise, mandate involuntary in the next CBA
Nobody denying it's voluntary, but that's not the point. Someone committed to the team and who cares about winning is going to get their ass to the facility...ESPECIALLY when you have a new GM, new coach, and new system. We can try to minimize it all we want but those are the facts and it's really that simple.
But that’s undue pressure as I see it..Otherwise eliminate it under the next CBA. There should be no exceptions, overt or implicit, imo
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
he's clearly getting horrible advice from someone...
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
and serves as a good reminder of what's at stake rolling the dice on someone viewed as talented but maybe not fully serious about football - like Thibodeaux.
Doc, you can argue substance all you want, but it's the essence that matters.
No second chances to make a good first impression
There is zero pressure from Daboll or Schoen at all which is all that matters. And I’m positive Toney doesn’t give a fuck about the fans,
That doesn’t change the fact he can be here if he wanted like 98% of the team is to get to know your new coaches and build rapport.
Just not a good look for Mr. Yung My Music Suck Ass Joka
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
Not to mention passing up on a blue-chip LB due to "character concerns", yet takes an inferior player with similar character concerns.
And considering how much he struggled with the playbook last year, he's not off to a good start with the new crew.
I am so disappointed in Toney. He can still turn his career around and be a great receiver. But missing practice is not the best way to start. The CBA is a joke and with limited practices, players should show up. Not much can be done about it, though. It is his choice. I just don’t think he will have a long career with the Giants.
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New coaching staff. New playbook. New system. Many new players. A guy who only played a handful of games and is not "established" by any definition of the word.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
he's clearly getting horrible advice from someone...
The same person as always, the one in his mirror
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
Depends on the conversations behind the scenes between him and the coach.
We saw Toney's talent. He can play (when healthy).
Daboll and Schoen have made it clear they aren't going to throw guys under the bus publicly (at least yet).
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
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attended this VMC.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Yes that’s why this is a moot point and probably why he’s not here lol
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
+1
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Yes, it's voluntary. And yet, seemingly all of the other players showed up (we know Bradberry's situation). In a meaningful way, can you explain why?
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attended this VMC.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
If he starts slow this season, the writers and fans will remember this week and get on him for it.
Tells me a lot of how much he cares about a job that pays him a lot of money with a new staff coming in..
disappointing
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
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In comment 15670990 bw in dc said:
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attended this VMC.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
This is alot of nothing right now, just fans and media making a big deal out of nothing. missing 3 days is not going to cost him the season.
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He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
I agree 100% with you, the beatdown by NE in the preseason last year was a HUGE red flag to me. This team was NOT ready to play at any level
I cannot imagine a superstar like Jerry Rice skipping an optional TA with a new staff, what has Toney done in the league?
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In comment 15671011 John In CO said:
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He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
Im agreeing with you, Im expecting Schoen to clear out some people after the draft is over, i'll be bummed if they dont
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
I'm basically done with the argument that preseason doesn't matter. Judge operated that way and it hurt the team big time in September.
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In comment 15671003 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15670990 bw in dc said:
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attended this VMC.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
In other words, not happening.
Good point. I wrote without considering that.
Of course, I have strongly advocated for trading DJ and SB, too.
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
Sorry this does not make sense. Deconstruct it to what? You still have to field 53 players and a practice squad. Why cut off your nose to spite your face at this phase.
I'm basically done with the argument that preseason doesn't matter. Judge operated that way and it hurt the team big time in September.
I agree with this last statement
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In comment 15671011 John In CO said:
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He is what many of his predraft reports said he would be: a kid who had several documented character concerns at UF and also a kid who might be more interested in his career as a Rapper than his career as a football player. He has lived up to those concerns. He is what he always has been.
You want to be disappointed in someone, be disappointed in the Giants for ignoring every red flag there was and spending a top 20 draft pick on the guy. You would have thought after the Baker experience they would have learned a lesson. Guess not.
Gettleman = straight Trash as GM
Not just Gettleman. But the FO and scouts as well. While IMO its still too early to say whether Toney is a keeper or not here, it’s hard to give much slack to any given player on this team given how shitty this organization has been run into the ground over the past decade.
Yep this was a Judge pick
Even if he plays well, how are you going to determine what his potential is and whether he's reached it? That would be quite a skill you've got.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
This right here along with the majority of other responses. This guy and others need to be in camp, voluntary or not.
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If he shows up and plays to his potential the "voluntary" workouts will be meanless.
Even if he plays well, how are you going to determine what his potential is and whether he's reached it? That would be quite a skill you've got.
Toney was a colossal mistake in the first round and I LOVED him in college. To me he was always an X-factor high risk/high reward in the lower rounds.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
I know nothing about his quality as a singer, but I don't think he is playing the odds. If BOTH his football and music careers implode, he's going to be bagging groceries.
LakeGeorgeGiant mentioned this on another thread and I agree with him - if I have a complaint with Schoen at this point it's that he could be more aggressive in deconstructing this roster. Still time though, and we don't know how much Mara is allowing him to do. Hopefully we get surprised during the draft and immediately after.
I am/was okay with the idea of incurring the most possible cap pain this year. Give Schoen and Daboll a mulligan for 2022 and essentially go with a JV squad. If the odds are fairly clear we aren't going to compete anyway than just use 2022 as a tryout year.
But you hit the nail on the head - we don't know how much Mara is still putting his fingers on the scale...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
The Giants would be better off fielding 53 UDFAs on 1 year contracts than the roster they are going to field. It is untalented, thin, and expensive.
This is what I am talking about when I say Schoen inherited a sub-expansion team situation, and that 2022 is a teardown year. It's a roster full of bad draft picks and bad contracts - it takes a lot of resources just to unload that garbage.
That's what 2022 is about. And they won't even be able do it all in 2022.
The scope of the roster problem is as big as I can recall in the current CBA. Everything Gettleman did wasn't just wrong - it was heavily wrong.
If I'm Schoen I'm trading everything I can within the constraints of the salary cap. The return is irrelevant.
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
He can read the playbook from anywhere, it’s not that (some good stories out there on how easily he can read and process them) the problem is not showing your new coaches and teammates that you give a fuck
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Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
This must be why the organization lost its mind at BBI for the clown show picture haha. This statement is too true and such a kick in the nuts, it’s comical. Just have to hope most of the nonsense and clown-foolery is behind this organization and we can enjoy a bit of fresh air with the new GM and HC before perhaps they fail too? Ugh. Draft can’t get here fast enough.
So the way I interepret this:
It's a privilege (current vol mini-camp) that is only offered to teams with new HC/GM etc...and if accurate, every player should want to participate if they want to be prepared and ready for the start of the season.
Hell, if it is a privilege, players and coaches should have a competitive advantage over other teams as a result of our new HC/GM situation. This should be a no brainer for players wanting to WIN.
Yep. And this is a from a guy less than one year in the league, who barely was available to play and did almost nothing other than underwhelm. The team's top investment in the draft.
Is is that difficult to even pretend to care...
I guess sometimes you just want to see a guy show he cares and so far he has shown he doesn't.
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attended this VMC.
The best course of action, IMV, is to trade Toney and give him a fresh start. I don't know how you can trust that he's going to turn it around.
If I was reading OTC correctly, trading him incurs a call hit around $8M. Don't know how they make that happen without unloading Barkley and Jones to free up $15M.
Suddenly ... trading him doesn't sound like a bad idea to me anymore lol.
But I think honestly they're going to just let it ride this year and then part ways with him after 2022.
In other words, not happening.
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Couldn’t stay on field last year, and you’d think he’d want to be as close to team as possible with new playbook. His talent is legit, but he is not making great decisions. Careers in football are fleeting, and you need to maximize your time.
Youth is wasted on the young. Nitwit.
I know nothing about his quality as a singer, but I don't think he is playing the odds. If BOTH his football and music careers implode, he's going to be bagging groceries.
Unless he's mismanaged his money, he's a millionaire from just his $7 million signing bonus.
So far, it's looking like a colossal mistake.
Judge and his scouts did going back to high school. Don’t tell everyone Sy wanted Barkley and wouldn’t have changed the pick I don’t want the “ i told you so” clowns to disappear
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
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Now it is collective bargaining economics to defend this guy... I guess you learn another feeble excuse every day when it comes to people who lack character...
This guy never shows up - voluntary or involuntary. He could not have been a worse pick last year with guys like Darrisaw and Paye gifted to them at twenty. And it is about the Giants' inability to discern the issue of "character". To have Micah Parsons off the board last year for character concerns and then immediately draft this guy is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, the most interesting thing about this upcoming draft may be the Giants' pick at seven to make sense of their so called great trade last year. I remain dubious until proven otherwise.
Could someone who was trying to actually destroy the Giants do a better job than Gettleman did?
Absolutely not. I said when he finally left I would not have been surprised if he went running from the offices in an Eagles Deseasn Jackson jersey laughing hysterically.
He wasn't just a bad GM. He was a complete disaster.
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During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
Right Tackle, EDGE, Safety and TE the Giants sorta look like an expansion team.
Maybe the NFL should award us extra draft picks at the beginning and end of each round.
Right Tackle, EDGE, Safety and TE the Giants sorta look like an expansion team.
Maybe the NFL should award us extra draft picks at the beginning and end of each round.
An expansion team would have over $150 million in cap room right now.
I'd rather be an expansion team.
Right Tackle, EDGE, Safety and TE the Giants sorta look like an expansion team.
Maybe the NFL should award us extra draft picks at the beginning and end of each round.
sorta?
This is alot of nothing right now, just fans and media making a big deal out of nothing. missing 3 days is not going to cost him the season.
No.. When Leonard Williams and his HUGE salary shows up, it isn't nothing. When Kenny Golladay shows up, with his HUGE salary, it isn't nothing. When injured players show up, it isn't nothing.
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Right Tackle, EDGE, Safety and TE the Giants sorta look like an expansion team.
Maybe the NFL should award us extra draft picks at the beginning and end of each round.
An expansion team would have over $150 million in cap room right now.
I'd rather be an expansion team.
Gonna be a long road back to respectability.
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In comment 15671019 christian said:
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During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful. Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about impact.
If Kadarius Toney was putting up numbers like Ja'Marr Chase did last year, this would be a non-issue. He is a guy who couldn't get on the field in the beginning of the year because he didn't learn the system, and then missed a bunch of games because he had a myriad of injuries. He is not a guy who has proven he can flip a switch and be productive (like LT). LT didn't really have room to get better. Toney has a shit ton of improvement to make to become an average receiver.
I've seen this argument made in the past a number of times in the last decade. It never has come back to bite people in the ass. Unfortunately.
Toney is very capable of having a great season, but there is a cost to falling behind.
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a fun thread to revisit in the future. There’s a lot of quotable material in here.
I've seen this argument made in the past a number of times in the last decade. It never has come back to bite people in the ass. Unfortunately.
Toney is very capable of having a great season, but there is a cost to falling behind.
I think I have read this same sentiment from a multitude of posters who no longer post here, primarily because they were wrong every time they posted it and now have no credibility when it comes to evaluating this team.
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coaches? Is that ok? Would fans be ok with that? Would the coaches and FO be ok with that? I didn't like the pick when they made it and like it even less now. Another wasted DG pick. Did they vet this guy? This team should fire every scout and just use Sy and listen to him. When I read Sy's comments on him that was enough for me. He's just plain not dedicated enough.
Judge and his scouts did going back to high school. Don’t tell everyone Sy wanted Barkley and wouldn’t have changed the pick I don’t want the “ i told you so” clowns to disappear
Two totally different cases. One's a head case that came with warnings. The other a talent that hasn't worked out because of least of all injuries. (And I questioned the Barkley pick at the time). But when a player comes with attitude warning signs and your gonna spend millions and you still do it. That's plain dumb.
Right Tackle, EDGE, Safety and TE the Giants sorta look like an expansion team.
Maybe the NFL should award us extra draft picks at the beginning and end of each round.
yeah, they could use us to get all the shitty players off the board.
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In comment 15671107 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15671019 christian said:
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During Judge’s years there was a lot of chatter on this site about OTAs, practices, and pre season games not mattering much.
And then the Giants showed up and got beat like a bag in the early part of the seasons.
The Giants even flat out said Toney wasn’t running on special teams last year because he was learning how to play receiver.
I’d think Giants fans at some point would recognize not knowing what the fuck you are doing is a disadvantage to the players.
Some people were saying those things. They were wrong. LT didn't need to practice or show up at these things. Kadarius Toney absolutely does. There are no LTs on the Giants roster.
I don't know how anyone can think practice, professionalism and effort are unimportant because they are not explicitly spelled out in the contract.
So he was excused because he was a good player? You don’t think it’s still a little disrespectful to coaches and teammates to sleep during meetings (after being late) and you know um smoking crack or blowing lines at halftime and asking teammates for piss so you can pass a test which he didn’t do many times? Cmon
I didn't say it wasn't disrespectful. Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about impact.
If Kadarius Toney was putting up numbers like Ja'Marr Chase did last year, this would be a non-issue. He is a guy who couldn't get on the field in the beginning of the year because he didn't learn the system, and then missed a bunch of games because he had a myriad of injuries. He is not a guy who has proven he can flip a switch and be productive (like LT). LT didn't really have room to get better. Toney has a shit ton of improvement to make to become an average receiver.
Wasn’t this exactly the case with OBJ? Hurt rookie year, fans wanted him gone then that all changed…until it didn’t.. Even when producing fans hated him before he got hurt. And we can say they weren’t the same but LT was a nightmare teammate to many im sure but we all looked the other way. Dose the matter they loved the game. Im not sure where I’m going with this lol but we can’t cut or trade him right now so let’s hope it clicks and he grows up
If this was Daboll's third season and Toney had two solid seasons under his belt, I wouldn't care so much. I want to root for Toney, but he's making it hard to do so. Show us you give a shit!
Dude has a ton of talent, but he's seemingly missing something between the ears. And oh yeah, stay healthy.
He was extremely popular for much of his time here. Even during and after his meltdown against Carolina, fans here sided with him. They also looked the other way on him dog pissing on the pylon and doing things like attacking the kicker's net.
It seemed to me that fans started to turn on him when he criticized Manning right after he signed a huge contract with the Giants.
He was extremely popular for much of his time here. Even during and after his meltdown against Carolina, fans here sided with him. They also looked the other way on him dog pissing on the pylon and doing things like attacking the kicker's net.
It seemed to me that fans started to turn on him when he criticized Manning right after he signed a huge contract with the Giants.
i didn’t mean here i wasn’t here just what a lot of fans and some writers said early on and as time went on. Same shit with Shockey. Both went on to catch TDs in Super Bowls of course
It's not just that, Dugan says he's missed all of the last two weeks. If he comes makes most of the last seven weeks of the program, it's not a big deal. But if he skips all nine weeks, oh boy.
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
This is true.
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Meanwhile all of us are speculating as to why. Again, not a good look for this kid considering a new regime & everyone probably getting a fresh start. I don't know who-if anyone-is in this kid's ear, but he's not helping himself at all.
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Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Reporters often contact players on their own. And they will say "sources say..."
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In comment 15671186 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Reporters often contact players on their own. And they will say "sources say..."
Do you really think Toney has built up a rapport with any of them so far that he trusts them ? I sure don’t . Last time he went through Twitter with his “training coach”’ and they were laughing at Skinner and being disrespectful. Just compete immature trash all around.
It did seem he had contempt for the media last year, but all it takes is one guy to check in with his agent or the player and ask what is going on.
SanFran isn't off on this.
Whoever this team puts their trust into, and I’m not talking the scouts, I’m talking whoever the consult with on the outside as references, etc (Cutcliffe, Alabama people, etc.) they need to cut the ties. These men have done us no favors.
No word on the reason for Toney’s absence (injury, health issue).
Is there any phrase that's been used more often than this since Toney was drafted?
you think he would put on a face before he actually secured the bag. Then after he got paid he could pull this stuff.
I see a big difference here, I think he actually enjoys football and what the fuck is his brand without football? Toney just doesn’t have the heart or passion in it
Whoever this team puts their trust into, and I’m not talking the scouts, I’m talking whoever the consult with on the outside as references, etc (Cutcliffe, Alabama people, etc.) they need to cut the ties. These men have done us no favors.
As posted by you and others, all he has to do is make one appearance to optically satisfy the media/fans. There have been many players who have done this over the years. They make a few appearances (usually on a media day) and are gone.
What bugs me is that he has new bosses and doesn't seem to want to score points with them (or help his own cause). It's not a given he will start.
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Did Duggan speculate why? Can't any of these beat guys, ya know, go to the horse's mouth & ask the dude himself? Or are we that long gone from reporters & the beat having relationships?
And I get KT came into the league during a global pandemic where it was tough-if not impossible-for the beats to establish a relationship with guys considering the lack of access.
You think the beats have his contact info and are going to reach out to ask why he wasn’t at a voluntary camp? And you think he’d give a fuck ? It’s between him and Daboll
Yes, and the coach said he's fine with it as long as he hit the ground running when the mandatory period begins. As time passes what's the likelihood of that happening? We'll see I guess.
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He’s not there because he doesn’t want to be. Doesn’t even feel the need to politic to get the fans/media off his back and just show his face to the new coaches that will be calling plays for him. That’s really the concerning part to me, so uninvested he won’t even go through the motions just for the sake of optics. It’s not the missed practice time.
you think he would put on a face before he actually secured the bag. Then after he got paid he could pull this stuff.
$14 M guaranteed he’s already got some nice cars and bling he Sports proudly
Yes. I'll find the quote.
They have face timed and Toney sends him his rap music.
I’m actually dead serious lol
A: Yeah. I'd say this really with every player, it's a clean slate. There's a lot of information right now to consume for these players once we get through the introductions and the standards and the things like that, in terms of playbook wise. So, each person's going to be responsible to make sure that they're on top of the information, the coaches are here to help them and then we'll have a good spring there in terms of the weights. Then when we can get out on the field, keep it going from there.
A: No, I view it as it's voluntary. The guys that are here, we're going to work with, with the time allowed that we can work with them. When the other players are able to come in, you know, there's a variety of reasons here – we're on April 4th – but we'll work with them and catch them up as best we can.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Coach speak: Show the fuck up or fuck off.
Daboll said he needs to get to know Toney, but he has no problem with Toney’s music endeavors.
“When you take over a new job and I hope that would be the case for any of us, you get a clean slate,’’ Daboll said. “Everybody’s new, we’re all starting from scratch here. And we’re gonna do this thing together. There will be certain expectations for the people in our building, one being a pro. You can give me 1,000 different definitions of what it means to be a pro. Being on time, working hard, all the things that we talk about. All these players and all the new coaches, including myself, it’s a clean slate.’’
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INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Hey. It’s…a start.
I wonder what Micah Parsons is doing?
Really souring on KT.
Whether HE gives a shit or not is the question.
My gut says he’s not on the roster at the end of this season. I hope I’m wrong.
I'd settle for Toney actually playing and being productive. We didn't need to spend a first rounder to get 400 yards and no TDs from the slot.
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
I understand it’s voluntary but despite showing talent he has not earned star treatment. Nothing comes easy in this league.
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
The problem is there was just a report that there are people inside the Giants building who think passing on Parsons was a good idea.
Based on what’s out there, you’d be correct in assuming that.
I mean, I never got the feeling either guy didn't give 100% of their limited talents. Those tipped ball INTs Engram kept coughing up were due to him giving it all he had. If KT tried as hard as Engram we'd be in a better spot with him.
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
Bakers charges were dropped and Toney actually came from a good family and isn’t some gang banger you seem to be alluding to. If he wants to express himself through music great, but he has a job to do and if that’s more important to you then he needs to go. It’s a shame because the game comes naturally to him
Most of NFL players live in a completely different world than everyone on this thread. Their interests are different, their jobs are different and their values are different. I barely know what Toney looks like let alone know him but I guarantee you he doesn't give a flying f**k about what any fans think and he doesn't give a f**k about playing for the Giants. They're just paycheck.
I'm pretty sure most current professional athletes know the deal by now. They play for pay. The only thing that matters is providing for themselves and their families. They produce and win they're heroes with the fans. They go through tough times and "fans" s**t all over them in every way.
Toney is a kid. Football is his job. IMO he thinks he's so talented he's not afraid of owners or coaches. His actions say he thinks as long as he's healthy NFL teams will keep giving him chances and keep paying him.
He'll probably show up when has to, so he doesn't lose any money, and do as little as possible and keep trying to get out of practice. When someone shows you who they are don't doubt them.
If he scores two TDs in game 1 the people on this thread will be cheering the loudest.
Most of NFL players live in a completely different world than everyone on this thread. Their interests are different, their jobs are different and their values are different. I barely know what Toney looks like let alone know him but I guarantee you he doesn't give a flying f**k about what any fans think and he doesn't give a f**k about playing for the Giants. They're just paycheck.
I'm pretty sure most current professional athletes know the deal by now. They play for pay. The only thing that matters is providing for themselves and their families. They produce and win they're heroes with the fans. They go through tough times and "fans" s**t all over them in every way.
Toney is a kid. Football is his job. IMO he thinks he's so talented he's not afraid of owners or coaches. His actions say he thinks as long as he's healthy NFL teams will keep giving him chances and keep paying him.
He'll probably show up when has to, so he doesn't lose any money, and do as little as possible and keep trying to get out of practice. When someone shows you who they are don't doubt them.
If he scores two TDs in game 1 the people on this thread will be cheering the loudest.
Your post would resonate more if 90 percent of the team wasn't there.
And undoubtedly if he played like he did in the Dallas game, he'd get more slack. But he only did that in one of 17 games.
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One last bone up the backside courtesy of Dave Gettleman. This kid is another DeAndre Baker street punk. Undisciplined and immature. He’ll never get it right either. Wasted pick. Micah Parsons looked pretty good though didn’t he?
This is part of the reason that Dave is out of a job.
Bakers charges were dropped and Toney actually came from a good family and isn’t some gang banger you seem to be alluding to. If he wants to express himself through music great, but he has a job to do and if that’s more important to you then he needs to go. It’s a shame because the game comes naturally to him
Baker may have gotten off, but the whole story was ugly and his involvement still stinks to high heaven. It's also noteworthy that the Giants dumped him immediately even though they have long history of looking the other way with criminal activity.
It doesn’t we’d be taking on about $5m I believe
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INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
I wouldn't be shocked at all. It would tell me the front office views every receiver we have as a mistake made by previous regimes.
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Trade Toney to SF for Samuel. Samuel’s rookie deal is up after this season. Helps the cap.
It doesn’t we’d be taking on about $5m I believe
Well there ya go.
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In comment 15671297 bwitz said:
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Trade Toney to SF for Samuel. Samuel’s rookie deal is up after this season. Helps the cap.
It doesn’t we’d be taking on about $5m I believe
Well there ya go.
I didn’t even think about the actual trade lol why the fuck would SanFran ever do that😂
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in either round 1 (after a trade down) or in round 2. Despite the resources committed to the the position by our buffoon former GM, our WRs might be the worst in the league.
It’s a critical position in todays NFL and a major need for NYG.
I wouldn't be shocked at all. It would tell me the front office views every receiver we have as a mistake made by previous regimes.
What's that stat? Giants are #1 in WR salaries and #32 in WR TDs? Pretty much every receiver on the roster making above minimum is a mistake.
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In comment 15671298 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15671297 bwitz said:
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Trade Toney to SF for Samuel. Samuel’s rookie deal is up after this season. Helps the cap.
It doesn’t we’d be taking on about $5m I believe
Well there ya go.
I didn’t even think about the actual trade lol why the fuck would SanFran ever do that😂
Toney’s still on his rookie contract; Samuel’s is up after this season and, he doesn’t want to play in SF. Just thought it was a fit.
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In comment 15671306 bwitz said:
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In comment 15671298 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15671297 bwitz said:
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Trade Toney to SF for Samuel. Samuel’s rookie deal is up after this season. Helps the cap.
It doesn’t we’d be taking on about $5m I believe
Well there ya go.
I didn’t even think about the actual trade lol why the fuck would SanFran ever do that😂
Toney’s still on his rookie contract; Samuel’s is up after this season and, he doesn’t want to play in SF. Just thought it was a fit.
Only they are working on an extension and he’s 10000xx more valuable. They would want about 6 draft picks to go with it
😁
😁
LOL I mean it’s a fantastic thought we would just need to sedate their entire organization
These quotes are from a companion article to the one linked below.
The Giants traded back from the 11th pick to No. 20 on Thursday night, with the expectation that general manager Dave Gettleman was targeting an edge rusher after missing out on Alabama wide receiver DeVonta Smith.
That was the wrong assumption.
Instead, the Giants stuck at wide receiver, picking speedy Florida weapon Kadarius Toney with the 20th pick.
It is a surprising pick considering how big of a need the Giants have at edge rusher and on the offensive line, but the organization made it a priority this offseason to get quarterback Daniel Jones more weapons.
PFF wrote in its scouting report that Toney has “rare ability with the ball in his hands.” He’s also a talented returner. There are a lot of non-football questions the Giants likely explored in their research.
So there are some questions to answer — especially after the Giants’ recent saga with since-cut cornerback DeAndre Baker — but Toney’s talent is certainly there.
This pick was an important one for Gettleman, who needs Jones to succeed in his third year as much as anyone in the organization. If Jones doesn’t make major strides in Year 3, there’s a decent chance Gettleman isn’t around anymore in 2022.
So, Gettleman is clearly putting all of his eggs in the Jones basket, and that’s been especially obvious based on all the moves the Giants have made to put more weapons around him.
The Giants went out in free agency and signed the top available wide receiver, giving Kenny Golladay — a Pro Bowler in 2019 — a massive four-year, $72 million contract. They also signed tight end Kyle Rudolph, one of the NFL’s better red zone threats, to a two-year, $12 million deal. For good measure, they brought in speedy wide receiver John Ross on a one-year deal.
Plus, the Giants will get back injured running back Saquon Barkley, and wide receivers Sterling Shepard and Darius Slayton, plus tight end Evan Engram, all are set to return.
Now, add Toney to the mix. It’s all of a sudden an embarrassment of riches for one of the worst passing attacks in the NFL from last season. Jones only threw 11 touchdowns in 14 games last year.
If that happens again, then something will have gone terribly wrong.
I found that an interesting read and almost a little unfair to Gettleman because it never mentions that John Mara was actually the person who publicly said the priority of the 2021 off season was getting Jones more weapons. It wasn't he "organization" it was the CEO owner.
Apparently everyone but the Giants knew who they were drafting in Toney.
There's a whole bunch of bravado quotes from Joe Judge in the linked article. They reflect very poorly on him reading them a year later. But this is money part of that article IMO.
And after all of that, the Giants felt comfortable enough to draft him.
“We spent time with him in person to get to know the person there and that continues,” Pettit said. “Listen, if there was a concern with him, he wouldn’t have been on our board.”
I hope Joe Schoen realizes how important it is to get certain people out of the building as soon as the draft is over but I'll bet it doesn't happen.
In Kadarius Toney, Giants drafted a player with off-field issues, but they still don’t think he’s the next DeAndre Baker - ( New Window )
These quotes are from a companion article to the one linked below.
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Giants draft Florida’s Kadarius Toney in 1st round, getting Daniel Jones a speedy weapon ... with a lot of question marks
The Giants traded back from the 11th pick to No. 20 on Thursday night, with the expectation that general manager Dave Gettleman was targeting an edge rusher after missing out on Alabama wide receiver DeVonta Smith.
That was the wrong assumption.
Instead, the Giants stuck at wide receiver, picking speedy Florida weapon Kadarius Toney with the 20th pick.
It is a surprising pick considering how big of a need the Giants have at edge rusher and on the offensive line, but the organization made it a priority this offseason to get quarterback Daniel Jones more weapons.
PFF wrote in its scouting report that Toney has “rare ability with the ball in his hands.” He’s also a talented returner. There are a lot of non-football questions the Giants likely explored in their research.
So there are some questions to answer — especially after the Giants’ recent saga with since-cut cornerback DeAndre Baker — but Toney’s talent is certainly there.
This pick was an important one for Gettleman, who needs Jones to succeed in his third year as much as anyone in the organization. If Jones doesn’t make major strides in Year 3, there’s a decent chance Gettleman isn’t around anymore in 2022.
So, Gettleman is clearly putting all of his eggs in the Jones basket, and that’s been especially obvious based on all the moves the Giants have made to put more weapons around him.
The Giants went out in free agency and signed the top available wide receiver, giving Kenny Golladay — a Pro Bowler in 2019 — a massive four-year, $72 million contract. They also signed tight end Kyle Rudolph, one of the NFL’s better red zone threats, to a two-year, $12 million deal. For good measure, they brought in speedy wide receiver John Ross on a one-year deal.
Plus, the Giants will get back injured running back Saquon Barkley, and wide receivers Sterling Shepard and Darius Slayton, plus tight end Evan Engram, all are set to return.
Now, add Toney to the mix. It’s all of a sudden an embarrassment of riches for one of the worst passing attacks in the NFL from last season. Jones only threw 11 touchdowns in 14 games last year.
If that happens again, then something will have gone terribly wrong.
I found that an interesting read and almost a little unfair to Gettleman because it never mentions that John Mara was actually the person who publicly said the priority of the 2021 off season was getting Jones more weapons. It wasn't he "organization" it was the CEO owner.
Apparently everyone but the Giants knew who they were drafting in Toney.
There's a whole bunch of bravado quotes from Joe Judge in the linked article. They reflect very poorly on him reading them a year later. But this is money part of that article IMO.
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Director of college scouting Chris Pettit also said the Giants spent extra time speaking with Toney at the Senior Bowl, one of the few opportunities the organization had to get face-to-face time with the wide receiver due to all of the COVID-19 protocols teams had to follow this year. Pettit also said the Giants security staff looked into Toney’s background too.
And after all of that, the Giants felt comfortable enough to draft him.
“We spent time with him in person to get to know the person there and that continues,” Pettit said. “Listen, if there was a concern with him, he wouldn’t have been on our board.”
I hope Joe Schoen realizes how important it is to get certain people out of the building as soon as the draft is over but I'll bet it doesn't happen. In Kadarius Toney, Giants drafted a player with off-field issues, but they still don’t think he’s the next DeAndre Baker - ( New Window )
Security staff?! 😂😂😂. Judge definitely hand picked Toney, 3 of his hires had scouted him in high school
Giants coaches Tyke Tolbert, Jeremy Pruitt explain what makes Kadarius Toney special - ( New Window )
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like Sterling Shepard and Evan Engram. That should right the ship.
I'd settle for Toney actually playing and being productive. We didn't need to spend a first rounder to get 400 yards and no TDs from the slot.
and a whole bunch of those yards came in one game, a game he then got himself thrown out of.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
I get what you’re saying but, in reality, what kind of life lesson can he give the kid this early into his hiring here? Go too far one way, you piss off the fans for being to coddling, too far the other, you risk pissing off the locker room for being a hard ass. Once camp actually starts and things aren’t voluntary, I’d bet he starts bringing down the hammer.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
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Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
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back your HC and show your on board. Now BD has to answer to this distraction.
I daboll thinks he's gonna get a free pass if Toney shits the bad, AFTER Daboll says it's cool for him to fuck off and play guitar hero, he's mistaken. So from one perspective Toney is already undermining Daboll and raising questions about his leadership skills/ability. Certainly has is my mind, I've seen this story many times before. Doesn't end well for either of them if it continues on the same trajectory.
Guitar Hero? Really? Get a grip.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
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In comment 15671268 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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back your HC and show your on board. Now BD has to answer to this distraction.
I daboll thinks he's gonna get a free pass if Toney shits the bad, AFTER Daboll says it's cool for him to fuck off and play guitar hero, he's mistaken. So from one perspective Toney is already undermining Daboll and raising questions about his leadership skills/ability. Certainly has is my mind, I've seen this story many times before. Doesn't end well for either of them if it continues on the same trajectory.
Guitar Hero? Really? Get a grip.
If he looks around the WR room that he is part of
Golladay has multiple 1k yard seasons under his belt...
Shep is the longest tenured Giants and is about 5 months out from a torn achilles...
both of those guys have proven significantly more in this league than Toney has and made the decision to show up to the program and learning the new offense.
KT is making all the right moves to turn the fanbase against him, lose respect from his teammates, and get himself pushed down the depth chart..
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
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In comment 15671393 Red Right Hand said:
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
Yeah, you're right, he don't need no stinkin' life lessons, he's banging, he got it goin' on. Ok ,lol. Guy is a clown ( er, excuse me, joka), who's done nothing and manged to get himself shit on before preseason even starts. Inspiring, I tell ya. He's gonna save us, watch, lol.
Imagine a first year head coach trying to teach a player a “life lesson” for missing a VOLUNTARY camp lol. Yes he’s an immature clown but we have no clue what was said between coach and him and that’s all that matters. Because you know…voluntary
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
If you conflate "lesson" with punishment, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to explain to the kid what the kid is ovbiously not seeing on his own. How this effects the kid, how it effects the team. Really, you think the coach's job is befriend a 22 YO player? Coaches are supposed to earn respect from young kids, not friendship. Great job? I'd say 75% of the people on this thread would disagree with you
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
You guys better be at least 80 years old . Life lesson LOL. F outta here with that trash
And I hope you're less than 25 YO to think it's ok to talk to people that way in what should be a civil discussion
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
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In comment 15671363 larryflower37 said:
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Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
Your assuming Deboll is bothered by this and it's setting him back.
You don't know their communication or what goes on behind the scenes.
It's the fans making these mini camps super important and he will never get right missing it.
It's hyperbole.
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In comment 15671377 bwitz said:
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In comment 15671363 larryflower37 said:
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Are so passionate about a player choosing to not attend voluntary 3-day minicamp.
The draft is 2 weeks away how will we ever get the rookies up to speed?
This is a media and fan created problem, no one knows what his relationship is with Daboll and maybe this is right for the player and will build trust and mutual respect?
Everyone needs to relax and stop calling him a bust and a problem.
If you don’t see an issue with a second year, first round pick who completely underwhelmed last year not coming to voluntary work outs with a brand new coaching staff then, I don’t know what to tell you.
You need to relax your take about media bullshit, take a step back and read between the lines.
Look at that. I guess I did know what to tell you!
Your assuming Deboll is bothered by this and it's setting him back.
You don't know their communication or what goes on behind the scenes.
It's the fans making these mini camps super important and he will never get right missing it.
It's hyperbole.
A coach MAY get away with allowing a different set of rules for a star player. Setting an example like this for a young, unproven nobody seems like career suicide for both. Pardon the hyperbole.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
Exactly like it’s disappointing and a little disrespectful to the team and coaches but so was being late to meetings and smoking crack during games . He’s been in touch with Daboll and that’s all that matters. I have zero expectations for him but he’s actually a good kid from a good family. If it doesn’t work out so be it the new regime will move on,
Another reason why I couldn’t care less about who is on this current roster. We all could be wrong but, there just doesn’t seem to be an comradery with this group.
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
If you conflate "lesson" with punishment, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to explain to the kid what the kid is ovbiously not seeing on his own. How this effects the kid, how it effects the team. Really, you think the coach's job is befriend a 22 YO player? Coaches are supposed to earn respect from young kids, not friendship. Great job? I'd say 75% of the people on this thread would disagree with you
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
Listen, he's a smart, creative, athletic gifted young man, with a will of his own and his own sense of purpose and his own goals, and ultimately his own agenda that goes with it.
He's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
Beyond that, I don't really think it's necessary to get shitty because intelligent perceptive long time fans may have already discerned this isn't going to work long term, they've seen it before. Fanbois, not so much.
I just don't see a guy who will put in what it takes to be a champion in the NFL, and it's not just the bad judgement. Buress had bad judgement, but played crippled, in agony, waiting for his opportunity to contribute his part to win a super bowl, one defined by team perseverance and commitment, and overcoming limitations. I would love to see Kadarious Toney go on such a journey, but for whatever his reasons are, I'm not seeing it here, with us.
That's on him, not us for seeing it, cause that's what it looks like, here, now.
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Is that a voluntary mini camp is absolutely MANDATORY for a player who hasn't proven to be a full-time stud yet (ala LT or Strahan). How very Coughlin-like of all of you. On time is late, and voluntary is MANDATORY.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
Exactly like it’s disappointing and a little disrespectful to the team and coaches but so was being late to meetings and smoking crack during games . He’s been in touch with Daboll and that’s all that matters. I have zero expectations for him but he’s actually a good kid from a good family. If it doesn’t work out so be it the new regime will move on,
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is that after spending a year on the team, Toney apparently doesn't have a relationship with a veteran player on the team who could explain to him the right thing to do. Where are Shep and Barkley and Golladay and Jones on this? And ALL the veterans showed up for this voluntary session (with the obligatory nod to Bradberry) so they must think it was the right thing to do
Another reason why I couldn’t care less about who is on this current roster. We all could be wrong but, there just doesn’t seem to be an comradery with this group.
You're not wrong there.
There are lots of idiots running around doing stupid things in the world today.
You can say voluntary all you want, but his absence is noticed.
THIS!!!
Jones because QBs need time to develop and he flashes once r twice a year. Barkley because of the injuries and his OL stinks. The WRs because the game plans don't utilize them enough downfield. The OL because they keep changing OL Coaches or had to play next to Solder.
You name it and the excuse has been posted...
I begin to wonder just how much football you've actually watched. If it's a lot, if you're involved in the game, I'd ask for all that time, how did you learn so little? Was your focus somewhere else?
I've watched enough for 50 years to know what I don't know. And to know that what I don't know, you guys don't know either.
I've watched BBI (since 1994) enough to know that you guys overanalyze and wring your hands over EVERY LITTLE THING (especially at this time of year), without EVER having the full picture of what's going on inside the building.
You don't know what conversations KD had with the staff. You don't know whether he's rehabbing something. You don't know shit beyond he isn't there, and that sticks in your collective craws. Too bad.
Again, IF his absence doesn't sit well with the staff, if he's really a flake who doesn't care, that will be a data point they'll use moving forward.
Someone above made the Plax analogy, and that was a good one. There was no bigger flakey doofus than Plax, but on gameday, he was a beast. Hurt or not. Arguably the best WR in Giants history till the idiot shot himself. Some guys aren't "model team guys." Some are flakey doofuses, and Toney may well be one. The Giants will deal with that as long as he proves to be of value ON the field. Just like all teams do with talented players.
If he's more trouble than he's worth, that will play out as well. But it won't be because he missed a voluntary mini-camp.
but, he's got guaranteed income for 3 more years. Cap wise, he's untouchable this year. Arguably, all he has to do is show up in year three, and he'll get a nice second contract.
Assuming he has no reasonable excuse, this really means little for his career. It isn't a good look for whether he'll put in the effort to do much more than coast, but if at any point over the next 3 years he puts in the effort, his bank account will be fine IF his financial advisor is halfway competent. IF his financial advisor is halfway competent, he's set for life even if he quits football in 3 years.
I think both can be true: it's absolutely voluntary, no question about it; and it does say something about Toney that he chooses to skip the voluntary portion of the offseason when he could also choose not to skip these workouts. I would liken it to a student who is struggling in a class but also refuses to attend the professor's office hours or join a study group.
I suspect we're going to see more workout bonuses in most of the contracts that Schoen negotiates going forward (this is what Beane does in Buffalo), so there will be motivation for players to attend and extra cap space the following year if they don't.
The amortized bonus for the remainder of his contract would accelerate - the next two years' amortization is not currently on the 2022 cap table.
Daboll has to learn the skill of managing all types of players. This will be a good first test.
While I am not a fan of his specifically (can you tell?), I don't need to like certain NY Giants in order to root for them to do well on gameday. Never have...
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
He has no businesses giving him a “lesson” for missing a voluntary camp. He’s handled it great trying to befriend and understand him instead.
Judge is gone we don’t want that bullshit back
You are mistaken. That is exactly what his "business" IS.
We can agree to disagree. On that note how do we know what has been said between the two? Maybe he did give him some miraculous life lesson for missing a camp he wasn’t required to be at.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
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negotiated right NOT TO BE THERE, is bullshit and makes a mockery of the agreed upon CBA agreements, imv.
I think both can be true: it's absolutely voluntary, no question about it; and it does say something about Toney that he chooses to skip the voluntary portion of the offseason when he could also choose not to skip these workouts. I would liken it to a student who is struggling in a class but also refuses to attend the professor's office hours or join a study group.
I suspect we're going to see more workout bonuses in most of the contracts that Schoen negotiates going forward (this is what Beane does in Buffalo), so there will be motivation for players to attend and extra cap space the following year if they don't.
That said, if a guy shows up to pre-camp in shape, mentally focused and knows the playbook we can hit the ground running.
We see vague media reports and hear from frustrated fans...I'm rooting for the kid. Hopefully everything clicks for him.
The workout bonuses seem like a great idea.
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Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
And while that's fair, we also have to note how poorly the whole team played not to mention the impact of OC Mastermind who's now out of the league completely.
This is not an ideal start for Toney. He had the benefit of the doubt from me in 2021 but in year 2 this is a disappointing first impression.
Yeah I’m sure teams are lining up to trade for a “loser for no effort that’s always injured” right ?!?! Doesn’t matter what we would get look at the cap it’s not happening
Life lessons are pretty stupid.
If he catches 3 TDs against the Eagles in a game this year, he can break into my house that night and punch my Uncle Eugene right in the face and I still wouldn't care.
Curious what your view will be if there is not any other reason other than he chose not to attend simply because its "voluntary". IMO that indicates a lack of commitment to his craft. Does not matter if he is working out on his own. This was on the schedule and it's an opportunity to create a culture and connections with a new coaching staff and new teammates. Talent is one thing, commitment is another.
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INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
Sometimes the totality of several separate instances represent a trend. Could there be extenuating circumstances that are keeping KT away from these minicamps? Absolutely. And could his failure to bring cleats that fit last year in the rookie minicamp have been an innocent mistake? Definitely. And could someone catch Covid twice in a few months while taking all the right precautions? Sure. And could a hard-working rookie just simply have bad luck with injuries? Totally. Is it understandable that a kid would lack the tact to stay uninvolved in the events of another player who cost someone their life? Yes.
But all of it combined? He's a knucklehead.
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In comment 15671251 Eric from BBI said:
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INDIANAPOLIS — There has not yet been a face-to-face meeting between Brian Daboll, the new Giants head coach, and Kadarius Toney, the team’s 2021 first-round draft pick. There have been FaceTime connections and also another form of communication.
“He sends me a couple of his songs every now and then so I can give him an evaluation of those, too,’’ Daboll said Tuesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Kadarius Toney forging bond with Brian Daboll through rap text messages - ( New Window )
Some of the greatest leaders find ways to adapt and communicate effectively with their staff/personnel. His lack of participation may be due to other circumstances, life, relationship???....I don't know the dude, who knows.
Sometimes the totality of several separate instances represent a trend. Could there be extenuating circumstances that are keeping KT away from these minicamps? Absolutely. And could his failure to bring cleats that fit last year in the rookie minicamp have been an innocent mistake? Definitely. And could someone catch Covid twice in a few months while taking all the right precautions? Sure. And could a hard-working rookie just simply have bad luck with injuries? Totally. Is it understandable that a kid would lack the tact to stay uninvolved in the events of another player who cost someone their life? Yes.
But all of it combined? He's a knucklehead.
Exactly and I’ll add to it…
The reason he wasn’t at the first set of workouts was because he was with a WR coach in Atlanta that proceedd to troll Skinner and laugh at concerned fans.
Disrespectful and immature.
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
Look, I'd prefer he be there, too. It's stupid that he's not. But I'm also not losing sleep over it. Toney is innately talented, and a difference-maker when he's on the field (which, granted, isn't enough). He'll either earn his spot, or his ticket out of NY. The new staff will figure out this year whether he's worth keeping around long-term. And his absence here is one data point.
Frankly, ALL that matters to me is whether he's available on game day. I seem to recall LT, Joe Morris, and Strahan missing all of preseason and having career years once the games were real. The difference here is that Toney doesn't have any "pelts on the wall" yet, as Parcells would say.
If KD sucks this year, everyone will point to missing this mini camp as a partial reason to get rid of him. But if he doesn't suck -- if he's healthy, and plays well, having skipped voluntary double-secret MANDATORY mini-camp what then?
Toney's either going to be great, or he'll sink his own battleship. Let's find out which it is sooner rather than later.
No, I think the general consensus is that it's voluntary, and that the choice each player makes says a lot about each player's commitment to the team.
It's a team sport. You only get better by working together.
The benefit of the doubt card is getting worn out. And its only been 11 months...
They can't afford to do either. He actually has them over a barrel in that sense. But they can make the depth chart a meritocracy and bury him at the bottom of it if he doesn't want to work.
If you've been on the management side of it, you know it when you see it.
If you've been on the management side of it, you know it when you see it.
no disagreement just 1 comment - the WR position tends to invite that personality type. it's a 1 on 1 position that's judged essentially by 1 individual's highlight plays.
Toney has the ability to make those highlight plays so we shouldn't totally lose sight of that, or the reality that grass may not be greener (deebo wants out, and diggs got traded from minny holding out, and on and on with examples from almost every year).
it's simply a judgement Daboll and Schoen will need to make whether or not the headache is worth it. And if it isn't pump him and dump him. I'd do that because i think his play style seems to invite injuries. that's my greater long term concern.
If you've been on the management side of it, you know it when you see it.
Then you show up every single day and then it's your "attitude" that you need to work on.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
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Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
This is BBI, where a large portion of the contributors base decisions on a player's best games while minimizing or outright ignoring red flags and disappointing results.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
sure but you play the hand you are dealt. he's a very talented player they have, the short term goals for both sides are aligned to get as much production as possible. there's no decision to make right now unless you are willing to throw away talent with no return (which is basically what Schoen said a month ago).
the bills paid a good return but they capitalized on another team's situation that was like this one, and even though Minnesota sold high and picked Jefferson they probably wish they had a do-over on that. their own pick was just 3 selections later so they could have had both.
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Since this is football I think that it is important to add that when he got on the field, he was very good.
Not a defense, just including a detail.
I think it's more accurate to say he had one good and one very good game.
Injuries aside, in 6 of his 8 games, he was a minimal factor.
This is BBI, where a large portion of the contributors base decisions on a player's best games while minimizing or outright ignoring red flags and disappointing results.
i dont think anyone is ignoring the flags. just taking into account the reality there's likely not a good alternative right now. if i could get a top 50 pick for toney i think i'd do that, i just doubt that's the case.
This isn't the LT era, or even Strahan era. There's ultra limited time to practice.
You're naive if you think the other guys on the unit don't have to fill in the gaps prepping when you have a wildcard on the team.
And this is a guy they wouldn't put on specials because he still needed to learn how to play receiver last year.
Then his production last year was basically the same as that waste of space on the roster (Kenny Galloday)
I'm not making an argument the Giants should or can do anything.
I also see almost no similarities to Diggs and Toney.
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the bills paid a good return but they capitalized on another team's situation that was like this one, and even though Minnesota sold high and picked Jefferson they probably wish they had a do-over on that. their own pick was just 3 selections later so they could have had both.
I'm not making an argument the Giants should or can do anything.
I also see almost no similarities to Diggs and Toney.
we can not like what Toney is doing while acknowledging it's a common occurrence, especially among Wrs for whatever reason. remember Plax and Shockey training in Miami?
I was actually surprised in a good way to see Golladay participating.
Receiver carousel turns as Stefon Diggs skips voluntary practices - ( New Window )
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
I'd trade them both to KC for picks # 29 and 94. Maybe a bit to much for KC though.
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Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
WR Kadarius Toney and CB James Bradberry weren’t in attendance for the first day of the Giants’ voluntary minicamp (or any of the offseason program to date), per sources.
Bradberry is staying away as he awaits resolution on his fate. No word on the reason for Toney’s absence.
I'd trade them both to KC for picks # 29 and 94. Maybe a bit to much for KC though.
A bit ? They wouldn’t give up either of those like not even close. At all
obviously Toney being younger he'll get the fan wrath for not being there, but seems like some fans care about this more than the players.
obviously Toney being younger he'll get the fan wrath for not being there, but seems like some fans care about this more than the players.
Replying to @DDuggan21
Shepard just came onto the field. Was likely inside rehabbing.
obviously Toney being younger he'll get the fan wrath for not being there, but seems like some fans care about this more than the players.
I generally agree that the sentiment against Toney is overblown, however Shep, Glowinski, and Martinez have been at the facility working out this offseason and Shep was in uniform yesterday too so these are likely excused absences or possibly even rehab related vs. not showing up at all (and not having a playbook).
we can not like what Toney is doing while acknowledging it's a common occurrence, especially among Wrs for whatever reason. remember Plax and Shockey training in Miami?
I was actually surprised in a good way to see Golladay participating. Receiver carousel turns as Stefon Diggs skips voluntary practices - ( New Window )
The difference in my view:
Diggs was an established player and emerging star, playing in the same offensen for a 5th year.
Toney is a 2nd year guy who couldn't get on the field, doesn't know the position well according to the previous staff, and is playing in a brand new system.
I hear you on the frequency guys skip stuff. He just seems like the last dude in the world who should be.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
All of these issues could be minor but he's a proven bonehead when you add it all up. Don't we all know people who constantly have shit going wrong in their lives but always have convenient excuses? Toney seems like one of those.
I'm rooting for Toney because he's one of the few potential exciting players we can watch this year. This stuff is disappointing. Washed away after a 100 yard game or two? Absolutely. But we don't have anything else to talk about.
obviously Toney being younger he'll get the fan wrath for not being there, but seems like some fans care about this more than the players.
Contrarianism is fun!
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Let’s drag out the KT roll call again for anyone who hasn’t played before.
- Brought an air rifle painted like a real gun to a gun fight
- Goes and buys a real gun, gets pulled over it with in the back seat, he’s suspended for a game
- Skipped part of the off-season as a rookie, presumably over his contract despite his contract being guaranteed and insured
- Lands on the Covid list twice on the year
- Barely plays, then skips off season activities again with a new coach
The worst part is he’s a smart, creative, funny kid.
All of these issues could be minor but he's a proven bonehead when you add it all up. Don't we all know people who constantly have shit going wrong in their lives but always have convenient excuses? Toney seems like one of those.
I'm rooting for Toney because he's one of the few potential exciting players we can watch this year. This stuff is disappointing. Washed away after a 100 yard game or two? Absolutely. But we don't have anything else to talk about.
this is basically how i see it - and how i saw it last year when they surprisingly took him over moore. he seems destined to be frustrating, but he showed more talent than i expected and this org isnt in a good position to give up on talent right now. he hasn't done anything so bad to force the issue so i hope they can get a good year out of him and trade him before he does.
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
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or any entry-level call center that has had 15 grandparents pass away to keep taking days off.
If you've been on the management side of it, you know it when you see it.
Then you show up every single day and then it's your "attitude" that you need to work on.
HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE FUCKING PLAYBOOK. Fuck off.
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In comment 15671393 Red Right Hand said:
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In comment 15671357 Bill in UT said:
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Daboll for not giving this kid a life lesson. I've got no problem with him giving everyone a clean slate, but that slate refers to the time before Daboll was hired. Toney's already pissing on the clean slate Daboll gave him.
Same here. If Daboll doesn't work out, in retrospect I bet the first serious misgivings will trace back to this, and how he let the yung joka shit on him while Daboll ate it up, telling him how awesome his tunes are while he misses camp.
Daboll can't force Toney to attend - these are voluntary workouts.
Don't put this on Daboll. The issue is that Toney would prefer not to attend, meanwhile almost every single one of his teammates would prefer to be there so the team can mesh, learn the new schemes, and most importantly take advantage of the opportunity to improve.
We're not tsalking about FORING him to attend. That's what you got from reading it? A demand for Daboll to FORCE him to attend? How about not blowing smoke up his ass about his shitty music while he boycotts team facilities?
Wait now he’s boycotting? That would imply there was a motive behind him not coming to optional camp. What is he trying to prove or want exactly?