šØBREAKING: Giants are looking to trade WR Kadarius Toney, making calls on what they can get for their 2021 1st round pick vm.tiktok.com/ZTd4dhTsf/ nydailynews.com//sports/footbaā¦ Pat L on TikTok? - ( New Window )
But this is a pretty straightforward post. If he's making this up then that is a huge problem. Is this a real account? Instagram doesn't seem like the best outlet to post information like this.
But this is a pretty straightforward post. If he's making this up then that is a huge problem. Is this a real account? Instagram doesn't seem like the best outlet to post information like this.
Pat Leonard
ā
@PLeonardNYDN
šØBREAKING: Giants are looking to trade WR Kadarius Toney, making calls on what they can get for their 2021 1st round pick
I don't even care about the financial component of this all. Ā
As voluntary is it is, for a new regime to put their stamp on a team and culture, they have to set the tone. From the injury concerns, to dedication issues at the beginning of the offseason, to not showing up, it may be what they have to do
Based on the last 3 years what gives you guys the impression he needs to āwake upāāas opposed to he just doesnāt care about football? You canāt force someone to enjoy something they donāt. I mean he canāt even fake it cmon
for finding a way to reach out and connect with your players.
This looks just as bad for the new regime as it does for Toney.
3 more years of suckitude coming up.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
on Toney is crap right now... he has shown good ability... he plays and puts up good numbers and his value would go up... you don't win by selling low or buying high.
you just have to cut your losses and sell even when the return sucks. The Giants might well have come to that conclusion with Toney. Bradberry is different. They simply can't afford him given his cap number their cap constraints.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
That's my recollection. I also have a vague recollection that it was Shurmur who wanted Baker.
He's the noted WR guru, and he has done well spotting talent at that one spot, unfortunately his grating personality makes these asswipes seem less risky because a dick doesn't recognize a dick. I hope he's out on his smarmy ass come May.
leaks out, and if they wait until the season starts to see if he plays well they risk him getting hurt. They also won't get a pick in this year's draft. The offers they get may be too little, but I think the reports they are at least inquiring are correct.
Thus far, he's not afraid to shop people, the value for the player is the value, playing poker or pretending you want a guy that you intend to trade is just playing games. He's not messing around like his idiotic predecessor.
If they really wanted to move Toney they would shut up and not make a move until after he made some circus plays in the early portion of the season.
They wouldn't hurt his value by telegraphing that they want to move on from him while his value is already at a low-point due to injury.
This assumes that the marginal hypothetical increase in compensation they get by waiting is more valuable in management's opinion than the benefit of getting a head case and a malcontent out of the program.
This has addition by subtraction all over it IMO. Eat your losses and move on.
And seriously, who among us didn't see this happening the night he was picked? Just a horrible fit organization and personality/commitment-wise.
what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Iām a minor asshat here but I have it on good word the Giants felt he could play down the stretch last year and he mailed it in.
Heās not all in. Ship him out.
Its not fair to judge players on this and/or take this kind of info on a message board at 100%. However, this is why the āif he can stay healthyā stuff seemed a little optimistic to me. The guy missed time with like 12 different injuries and seemingly always had an excuse not to play/practice for mandatory while blowing off voluntary stuff. Something felt off for sure there.
what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Normally, I'd agree. But not after listening to Schoen and Daboll on the Papa/Banks interview.
Exactly. Anyone trying to decipher motive here is not paying attention to what our GM and HC have said in interviews. They are open and honest about everything, it's nice actually. I think the BS stench around this team has most of us jaded and assuming everyone is lying. Judge is gone, Getty is gone, those days are over.
what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
That would be pretty cool.
Heās a knucklehead, but stop pretending he isnāt extremely talented. Ā
Iām a minor asshat here but I have it on good word the Giants felt he could play down the stretch last year and he mailed it in.
Heās not all in. Ship him out.
Its not fair to judge players on this and/or take this kind of info on a message board at 100%. However, this is why the āif he can stay healthyā stuff seemed a little optimistic to me. The guy missed time with like 12 different injuries and seemingly always had an excuse not to play/practice for mandatory while blowing off voluntary stuff. Something felt off for sure there.
He did this in college, his only full year was the one he declared. The cleats the āinjuriesā etc . We all knew he was faking
Or, if true, is a threat to light a fire under his ass. The cap hit from trading him and the minimal return makes it highly unlikely. Better to give him a shot in camp and see what you got. There's obviously talent there. We'd be better off getting rid of him next year, with a smaller cap hit.
the Giants are talking to Kansas City about James Bradberry, and the Giants are insisting on a 4th Rounder and K.C. is standing firm on a 5th Rounder. The Marvelous Kadarius can break the log jam. Joe Schoen tells K.C. he'll throw in Kadarius thus prodding K.C. to relent and give us their 4th for Bradberry.
In any event, the sooner the Giants get rid of Kadarius Toney the better.
Or, if true, is a threat to light a fire under his ass. The cap hit from trading him and the minimal return makes it highly unlikely. Better to give him a shot in camp and see what you got. There's obviously talent there. We'd be better off getting rid of him next year, with a smaller cap hit.
Just because they possibly inquired about trading him doesnāt mean they will. And the value still might be there with 3 years + option remaining. It craters if he underwhelms this year and you eat up another year of that rookie deal. Worst case with shopping is that you donāt get appropriate value in a trade offer, so you decline them but word gets out and you successfully sent a message to Toney.
The Giants are tired of Toney's act and want to see what his market value is. If some team is foolish enough to give them a 2nd RD pick, they make the trade. Anything less and they hold off.
As far as the Giants "leaking" the info, I think that it's far more likely that the leak came from a team that the Giants contacted.
what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
That's my recollection. I also have a vague recollection that it was Shurmur who wanted Baker.
Yes, Gettleman didnāt make a draft pick all the time he was here.
This was judge answering a question about his character. it's mind boggling they didn't just take Elijah Moore - who was clean off the field and a higher rated player by almost every consensus rank.
The Giants are tired of Toney's act and want to see what his market value is. If some team is foolish enough to give them a 2nd RD pick, they make the trade. Anything less and they hold off.
As far as the Giants "leaking" the info, I think that it's far more likely that the leak came from a team that the Giants contacted.
Or Toney agent leaked it to drum up more interest because he wants to get traded.
you literally can't make up that we had Parson's position coach Ā
I hope theyāre actually trying to get a day 1 or 2 pick in return as opposed to just dumping him. That would be fucking stupid.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
This guy posted a song to YouTube called "Codeine Dreamin'" 6 months before they drafted him.
Can't make it up.
And Josh Allen dropped the N word all over his Twitter feed. Bottom line is one likes football and one doesnāt . And Allen being a red flag got conveniently buried because he was just āyoung and immature.ā PFFT
pranced around like the prize winning pony is absolutely disgraceful. If the new regime doesnāt fix this debacle, with Mealy Mouth running the show, then it will never be fixed.
Mara should be horrified after taking pictures with the man that set his franchise back 5-10 years.
Pat Leonard may as well be one of those fake anon accounts. Ā
and he was allegedly off the board, but we had "multiple coaches" vouch for Toney.
Stunning.
Worse... remember there was a media report last week that there are executives in the building who still think it was best not to draft Parsons.
i mean i could perhaps understand still thinking the trade down was good value, #11 for #7 + #20 on it's face is good value. but passing on Parsons could haunt us for decades. there could be edge rushers picked #1-4 this year and each of their teams would sign today to get 75% of the rookie year Parsons just turned in.
and he was allegedly off the board, but we had "multiple coaches" vouch for Toney.
Yep which is why I rarely believe character concerns around draft time but it was just a rumor with Toney it was the injuries and rap albums plastered everywhere and almost nothing about football ever
and he was allegedly off the board, but we had "multiple coaches" vouch for Toney.
Stunning.
Worse... remember there was a media report last week that there are executives in the building who still think it was best not to draft Parsons.
It's a little early to call it a mistake. There's been plenty of players with character question marks that seemed to be a non issue until manifesting a year or two into their careers ie Reuben Foster, Rolando McClain etc.
the Giants are talking to Kansas City about James Bradberry, and the Giants are insisting on a 4th Rounder and K.C. is standing firm on a 5th Rounder. The Marvelous Kadarius can break the log jam. Joe Schoen tells K.C. he'll throw in Kadarius thus prodding K.C. to relent and give us their 4th for Bradberry.
In any event, the sooner the Giants get rid of Kadarius Toney the better.
I would package both to KC for #29 or #30. Despite the bizarre injuries and attitude, Toney still has some traits that would go a way to replacing Hill on that offense.
I hope theyāre actually trying to get a day 1 or 2 pick in return as opposed to just dumping him. That would be fucking stupid.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
he isn't a particularly good player. He could be the hardest working guy on the team and it still would have been a bad pick.
There's going to be a day in the future when all the Gettleman era mistakes are gone. That's going to be a good day.
i wish someone could adjust your slider to like 10% less hyperbole.
there aren't a lot of rookies who are out there underdressing Trevon Diggs on their way to 200 yards.
i'd trade toney for a day 2 pick but anything short of that id sooner suspend him until infinity then give him away for nothing. he is a talented player at a premium position with 4 years of control.
In reference to tatoo.....he can be traded to the Jets Ā
Even a 2023 2nd round pick but teams are likely offering a 3. Same reason some want to keep him, he flashed and a team still has 3+1 cost controlled at a position that just reset at 25m/yr.
I personally think heās an inside straight draw but Iām sure some team will think theyāve got the touch to get lucky.
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
Jordan Raanan @JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl
no issue trading him if they can get back a top 60 pick. i'd happily swap him for a metchie or dotson.
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
I mean no one on our shitty roster should be deemed "unavailable". But this is confirmation that Schoen seems to be open to everything and anything.
Smart, Tough, Dependable
Toney doesn't fit into any one of those categories....
God help us if Chris Mara and McDonnell still have real influence.
isn't this in a way a confirmation they arent? to go terps point, he had a song titled codeine dreaming and at UF he had the weapons charges even if they got dropped. even in the worst versions of the mara boogeyman, does toney at all fit the profile of a guy they would pound the table for?
Jordan Raanan @JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl
no issue trading him if they can get back a top 60 pick. i'd happily swap him for a metchie or dotson.
They can't get a Top 60 for Marvelous Kadarius. 160 is much closer to the mark.
The Giants aren't dealing from a poisition of strehgth. In a draft that has a number of talented WRs, the Giants MAY be able to get a 3. They sure as hell aren't getting a 2nd RD pick plus two 4s.
I hope theyāre actually trying to get a day 1 or 2 pick in return as opposed to just dumping him. That would be fucking stupid.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
Only thing stupid is the Giants keeping this guy around for one more day than necessary. He's a bust. He doesn't want to be here.
God help us if Chris Mara and McDonnell still have real influence.
Keeping in mind Maras interview when he blurted out that he signs off on the draft picks as long as they don't have character concerns, it gets even worse
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
Selling low? Hell. Joe Schoen just hopes he can sell. Period.
for me. His value is worthless to the Giants. They will never get anything out of him. Also, the intrinsic value of getting a bad apple out of here HAS value. Theyāll figure the cap out. Guys like Golladay and Williams get it. THEY showed up. Thatās what the coach and GM mean avoir buying in. Toney will NEVER buy in, anywhere! Some team will look at the talent and give them a mid round pick. Hopefully by Thursday. Good riddance!
This guy posted a song to YouTube called "Codeine Dreamin'" 6 months before they drafted him.
Can't make it up.
And Josh Allen dropped the N word all over his Twitter feed. Bottom line is one likes football and one doesnāt . And Allen being a red flag got conveniently buried because he was just āyoung and immature.ā PFFT
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
Only thing stupid is the Giants keeping this guy around for one more day than necessary. He's a bust. He doesn't want to be here.
Heās a bust? Thatās silly. A knucklehead? Sure. A moron? Possibly. Whether he wants to be here or not has nothing to do with just giving him away. He has talent and his trade value should be commensurate with that talent.
I would keep him on the team and he will self destruct. then there is probably a clause in his contract about actions detrimental to the team and release him with no further pay.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
I would keep him on the team and he will self destruct. then there is probably a clause in his contract about actions detrimental to the team and release him with no further pay.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
If he's toxic, they don't want him in the locker room.
I would keep him on the team and he will self destruct. then there is probably a clause in his contract about actions detrimental to the team and release him with no further pay.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
a new regime doesn't want that headache...that want a clean slate and a fresh locker room without this noise hanging over the teams head.
āIf you believe everything on the Internet you are gullibleā
Yeah, I'm sure you're in the loop at this point.
Um what? Itās literally on his pageā¦
I'm saying the Giants wouldn't be providing updates on his status if they were trying to dump him.
Oh you said me lol I was confused. I mean maybe he is. Leonard said we are actively shopping Ranaan toned that down and made it seem like āopen ad
Alwaysā. As to how much of each š¤·āāļø
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
ā¦if this is true. I think the first warning sign for me was his not being there when Dabs and Schoen were first introduced. Then, when over 90% of the teams shows up for a voluntary camp, except for the PK and some roster fillers, that, to me, was a deal breaker. When the Vet WRs stated why they were there, and not getting a playbook unless he was here, that shouldāve been a signal to KT to get his butt there the next day. His agent, saying nothing, speaks volumes IMHO.
To rid him from the team at this point, Iād even gladly trade him within the Division.
Not because I don't think Schoen is serious about making a deal if the compensation is great, but because I can't imagine a team is going make him that offer.
There are a bunch of red flags with Toney, but I don't think you ship him out after one season, with all his potential, for anything less than a fantastic offer.
Not sure what you mean by that but, seems like a comment on the posters here.
I see a WR, a player who:
Has had one weird thing after another follow him, multiple issues with injuries and illness, complaints about usage even though he wasn't available often and in his best game he gets thrown out for being very stupid ..
Hard to see why anyone would be expected to support the guy .
Toney doesn't have time to come learn the playbook, but within minutes of an internet rumor of him being shopped, he feels obligated to push back against it?
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Only the Giants could draft a player in the first round Ā
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
Toney doesn't have time to come learn the playbook, but within minutes of an internet rumor of him being shopped, he feels obligated to push back against it?
Toney doesn't have time to come learn the playbook, but within minutes of an internet rumor of him being shopped, he feels obligated to push back against it?
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Itās daunting..clean out all the FO holdovers from the previous regime, dump the scouts, and keep John away (easier said than done)
Obviously showing up didn't help Engram with the "Let's lynch the landlord crowd" because he kept dropping the world's greatest QB Daniel Jones' passes.
Hate Gettleman the worst GM in the universe but defending Jones he's my Quarterback crowd is just as absurd.
It's VOLUNTARY PRACTICE. He's not the first and not the last player not to attend voluntary practice.
I say the shit show will continue for 3 more years.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
It's not hyperbole. 39 catches at 10.8 per catch and 0 TDs. That is not a good player.
His two best games were against a pair of top 4 pass defenses according to footballoutsiders.com. He had a monster game against their second ranked pass defense. Based on the submoronic BBI rule of good performances only mattering against quality opponents, then Iād say itās too early to say heās not a good player. His overall production was poor, but heās quite talented. To say otherwise is just asinine.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
I just did. They have to agree or there is a protocol Mara follows with them and others and Mara makes the call
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Still think Schoen should have had a full clearance sale at 125 Giants Way. The majority of the base would have understood selling off DJ, Barkley, LW, Bradberry, etc. Take the most cap pain possible in 2022.
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@AngryNFLInsider
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Still think Schoen should have had a full clearance sale at 125 Giants Way. The majority of the base would have understood selling off DJ, Barkley, LW, Bradberry, etc. Take the most cap pain possible in 2022.
Absolutely. I'd rather enter the 2022 season with 53 UDFAs than any Gettleman players. Each player that goes now is a step closer to relevance.
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
This is such a stupid tweet. The Gettleman era ended 4 months ago, and Schoen hasnāt even had his first draft yet. People were expecting the mess to be cleaned up by late April?
up this mess is one step at a time. Getting Toney out of here should be priority one.
But giving him away doesnāt seem like an intelligent way to run a multi-billion dollar franchise. 99% of BBI is okay with trading him, myself included. Itās the ārun him out of town regardless of returnā thing that makes no sense to me.
It's not hyperbole. 39 catches at 10.8 per catch and 0 TDs. That is not a good player.
His two best games were against a pair of top 4 pass defenses according to footballoutsiders.com. He had a monster game against their second ranked pass defense. Based on the submoronic BBI rule of good performances only mattering against quality opponents, then Iād say itās too early to say heās not a good player. His overall production was poor, but heās quite talented. To say otherwise is just asinine.
you forgot bbi rules governing that stats only matter in wins - which the NO game actually was. the guy is an injury risk and a knucklehead, but he's talented.
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Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
What does this even mean? That Schoen is destined to fail? That he should just quit right now?
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
I just did. They have to agree or there is a protocol Mara follows with them and others and Mara makes the call
You're telling me JJ and other scouts overrode what DG wanted to do in which DG had no one else backing him for his potential choice?
You have the link for that? I am not arguing -- but where are you coming up with this information? You mention a Press Conference but what quotes were made that you found this out?
And if those scouts were the same ones over the last several years following blundering pick after blundering pick I hope they are all gone too- but where are you getting this info? It can't be just because your guessing.
Again ---I am not arguing.
Is there any doubt he would become a star elsewhere? Ā
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1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
What does this even mean? That Schoen is destined to fail? That he should just quit right now?
It means that if Schoen and Daboll can't turn around this mess in a few years, fans will be calling for their heads too. Some holes are very difficult to get out of. The Giants have a terrible roster and can ill-afford to have more busts.
Missed draft picks in the last three years are going to haunt the current regime.
The Giants are dumping ANOTHER 1st round pick.
It puts significantly more pressure on the front office and coaching staff to not only hit on their 1st round picks but also find more talent on day 3 and among the UDFAās.
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Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
This is such a stupid tweet. The Gettleman era ended 4 months ago, and Schoen hasnāt even had his first draft yet. People were expecting the mess to be cleaned up by late April?
Tend to agree provided Mara truly gives this staff enough time right the ship. If we're still in the two year GM/coach cycle, then we can say uh oh. But I really don't see a Toney trade as the nail in Schoen's coffin barely 100 days into the job.
NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
You guys are killing me with this "this is his wake up call"
From a players perspective...it would be a blessing to get traded away from arguably the worst team in the NFL. One with a dim future and a below average quarterback
alph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
Ā·
6m
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from
@PLeonardNYDN
.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now ...
I expect OT and WR first two picks. Seeing Schoen talk the other day about paying attention to what positions are getting paid on the open market, and how valuable it is to get them in the draft on a cheap deal...WRs are getting PAID some serious coin.
Neal/Ekwonu at 5 and Garrett Wilson at 7? Would not be shocked
And makes big plays to lead the Giants to victory in game one, we should compare that post game thread with this oneā¦.. just saying
Here in the real world Toney is another in a long line of disasters.
You jump to conclusions:
My pt. was not to defend him, I m not. My point, should my scenario play out, which it could even in your ārealā world, was to point out the fickleness of fans,
Do you really believe there is no chance he remains on the roster?
1. Anyone who is looping the cap into this has to stop.
2. I think toney is wildly talented. But if heās not interested in what this HC and GM are trying to build, itās time to go
Zack Rosenblatt
ā
@ZackBlatt
As others (starting with Pat) have said, I heard tonight (from multiple people) of a belief around the league that Kadarius Toney is legitimately available.
Whether that means heāll actually get tradedā¦ š¤·š»āāļø
Ralph Vacchiano
ā
@RVacchianoSNY
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from @PLeonardNYDN.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now
It's worth noting that Giants GM Joe Schoen said, back at the combine, that "I don't think Kadarius is a tradable piece." He was the only player he labelled untouchable.
It would be an extraordinary (though hardly unprecedented) turnaround to trade him 7 weeks later ...
Schoen also wouldnāt be selling high. Toney is young, talented and affordable. But the fact theyād be willing to dump him speaks volumes. One person I spoke to thought maybe the Giants could get a 3rd rounder for him. Most thought it would be less. ...
So the bottom line is this: I don't know if they're trying to trade him or just trying to gauge his value. But no one is ever really safe when a new GM and coach take over an organization. They have no allegiance to players picked by the previous regime.
RE: Vacchiano thinks more listening than shopping Ā
alph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
Ā·
6m
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from
@PLeonardNYDN
.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now ...
Listening is actually better because it means that teams are calling the Giants and there may be multiple offers.
was surprised they drafted Toney after what happened with Baker.
Schoen can clean up the mess. And he and Daboll will get the time they need to do so. But 2022 will likely be another dark season for Giants fans.
Did he ever have a site visit? Did anyone talk to him at the combine ( if he showed up) and whomever did speak to him and still advocated for him to be the 1st pick should be fired. What were his wonderlic scores? What a Jokahā
Ralph Vacchiano
ā
@RVacchianoSNY
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from @PLeonardNYDN.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now
It's worth noting that Giants GM Joe Schoen said, back at the combine, that "I don't think Kadarius is a tradable piece." He was the only player he labelled untouchable.
It would be an extraordinary (though hardly unprecedented) turnaround to trade him 7 weeks later ...
Schoen also wouldnāt be selling high. Toney is young, talented and affordable. But the fact theyād be willing to dump him speaks volumes. One person I spoke to thought maybe the Giants could get a 3rd rounder for him. Most thought it would be less. ...
So the bottom line is this: I don't know if they're trying to trade him or just trying to gauge his value. But no one is ever really safe when a new GM and coach take over an organization. They have no allegiance to players picked by the previous regime.
Especially when the previous regime was beyond atrocious.
Ryan Dunleavy
ā
@rydunleavy
Everyone obsesses over #Giants picking RB at No. 2. He's still their best player.
Bypassing Micah Parsons (red flags) and Rashawn Slater to trade down, draft a player who came w/ red flags & finds every way not to practice & then trading him for a mid-rounder would be next level
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
And Thomas (the one it appears he got right) was a #4 overall pick in a draft with 4 franchise OTs, meaning Gettleman was mathematically incapable of screwing up the pick.
Judging by this thread, Iām in the extreme minority but this feels like a massive mistake.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
Judging by this thread, Iām in the extreme minority but this feels like a massive mistake.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
Yes, except they simply may not want his presence on the team, infecting the locker room.
Judging by this thread, Iām in the extreme minority but this feels like a massive mistake.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
Yes, except they simply may not want his presence on the team, infecting the locker room.
Thereās about 5-10 guys tops in this locker room that will be here in 2 years.
I donāt know what the F they are saying but thatāa the first time heās ever commented on a teammates page I think. Maybe heās getting through to him but odds say better luck next time
Judging by this thread, Iām in the extreme minority but this feels like a massive mistake.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
He's not a first round talent anymore. He's just a guy on the roster who isn't interested in joining the program.
I'm not sure if the cap implications of trading him, so we might be stuck with him through 2022, but unless the light bulb comes on, I'd get rid of him for 2023.
And looking through the posts, I'd absolutely rather have Evan Engram than Toney right now. At least Engram tried.
I understand where you are coming from, but you can argue that Gettleman is still haunting the Giants... with his cap mess....with his draft picks... with his free agent signings... it's not just on him... it's on the Maras, Tisches, McDonnell, Abrams, Pettit, entire organization.
But they are still paying the price and will be for a couple of years. If Toney really is gone, that's another huge wasted move. We could have Parsons or Slater on the team right now.
can't say they are looking to trade him. It would imply they are doing so because he didn't show up to the offseason program. And if they do that, the Giants can get fined.
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
And Thomas (the one it appears he got right) was a #4 overall pick in a draft with 4 franchise OTs, meaning Gettleman was mathematically incapable of screwing up the pick.
I'm not so sure many would agree with that right about now had he chosen one particular one of those four...
NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
can't say they are looking to trade him. It would imply they are doing so because he didn't show up to the offseason program. And if they do that, the Giants can get fined.
But the story said it was based on last years behavior. Regardless of who initiates the phone call it can be just convenient timing itās during voluntary sessions.
Or hey they fell in love with a WR they expected to take at 5ā¦poof trade him
You can spin it to make him not showing up irrelevant. Irrelevant is what Leonard needs to become
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
I mean we donāt have Patrick Mahomes at QB, but you have Kafka and Daboll as your coaches now. Super creative offensive minds that will find a way to maximize your talents.
Why would you not want to jump right in and get up to speed? Likely because he doesnāt care about football.
high likelihood is that he's gone. They'll accept the best offer now or during the draft and move on. And that's true even though we have absolutely nothing at WR or TE.
Shepard is rehabbing from a torn achilles and likely won't be ready by the start of the season. Golladay and Slayton did nothing last year. Everyone else is just a body.
The Giants probably like several day three WRs, but need to get a few more picks to be able to draft at least one, especially given all their other needs.
Schoen said that KT was an "untradeable commodity" before KT decided not to show up to voluntary workouts, which means he doesn't even have the playbook.
Can't get this guy off the roster fast enough... Ā
And couldn't care less what we get in return. The respect that Schoen and Daboll will earn for doing so will be infinitely more valuable than any one player, draft pick or additional cap space.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
Fair point about #7, but then make it Kwity Paye.
I wanted Paye. I think most people here were stunned he wasn't the pick. The Colts who picked next IIRC certainly were. I also would have been fine with Darrisaw.
I understand where you are coming from, but you can argue that Gettleman is still haunting the Giants... with his cap mess....with his draft picks... with his free agent signings... it's not just on him... it's on the Maras, Tisches, McDonnell, Abrams, Pettit, entire organization.
But they are still paying the price and will be for a couple of years. If Toney really is gone, that's another huge wasted move. We could have Parsons or Slater on the team right now.
Agreed Eric. The fatal flaw with the mess of a regime before this one was the minute DG walked in and thought tape and stringing an offensive line together, drafting a RB at 2, rolling with Eli (with a makeshift offensive line) and drafting a crapload of defensive backs would make this team a contender. DG didnāt do this in a vacuum, Maraās the one signing the paychecks.
Iām just glad he went outside of the āfamilyā with the Schoen hire.
RE: Can't get this guy off the roster fast enough... Ā
And couldn't care less what we get in return. The respect that Schoen and Daboll will earn for doing so will be infinitely more valuable than any one player, draft pick or additional cap space.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Yea just looked at the respect Gettleman got when he traded Odell. . .
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
My way or the highway....
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice.
And couldn't care less what we get in return. The respect that Schoen and Daboll will earn for doing so will be infinitely more valuable than any one player, draft pick or additional cap space.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Yea just looked at the respect Gettleman got when he traded Odell. . .
OBJ winning a Super Bowl was destiny. At least we got Peppers and Lawrence right ? Nice trade Daveš¤”
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
Yes thatās why they canāt say they are even if that is why they are
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
I guess then Iām speaking specifically to the people who said theyād be trading him because of the voluntary workouts.
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
Canāt they cut him just based on the screws being lose lol? There have been plenty of reasons well before these voluntary camps it is just ābad timingā
And a possession WR who isnāt in Sterlingās class. Itās the least important position in the offense. Letās trade him before he embarrasses the franchise off the field. āIt can always get worse.ā
And a possession WR who isnāt in Sterlingās class. Itās the least important position in the offense. Letās trade him before he embarrasses the franchise off the field. āIt can always get worse.ā
I was floored last year when the Giants didn't put him on specials teams. The staff then basically said he needed to learn how to play receiver, and learning special teams was too complicated.
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Passing on Parsons and drafting Toney, while foolish, Ā
is not as idiotic as drafting Barkley when the Giants could have drafted Josh Allen on the 1st round and Nick Chubb on the 2nd round in 2018 (which is what I thought they should have done).
RE: Passing on Parsons and drafting Toney, while foolish, Ā
is not as idiotic as drafting Barkley when the Giants could have drafted Josh Allen on the 1st round and Nick Chubb on the 2nd round in 2018 (which is what I thought they should have done).
Alright Nostradamus, whatās the money picks of this years draft?
The draft is easy to re-access years later. On the topic of Toney, fuck him. Get rid of him. The whole team is so broken that losing any player isnāt an issue especially if theyāre not buying in. I rather go 0-16 than play with turds like Beckham and Toney.
I was floored last year when the Giants didn't put him on specials teams. The staff then basically said he needed to learn how to play receiver, and learning special teams was too complicated.
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Here I will defend Toneyā¦ The coaches should have known he was a converted QB out of high school, you know because they scouted him out of high school lol. He only played one full season at WR at FL. In addition to being a red flag he was also a project
RE: Passing on Parsons and drafting Toney, while foolish, Ā
is not as idiotic as drafting Barkley when the Giants could have drafted Josh Allen on the 1st round and Nick Chubb on the 2nd round in 2018 (which is what I thought they should have done).
I would make one slight amendment.
Passing on Parsons and Slater. Slater would have been a great, great ad to this pathetic OL. Guy is a monster technician at LT.
I was floored last year when the Giants didn't put him on specials teams. The staff then basically said he needed to learn how to play receiver, and learning special teams was too complicated.
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Here I will defend Toneyā¦ The coaches should have known he was a converted QB out of high school, you know because they scouted him out of high school lol. He only played one full season at WR at FL. In addition to being a red flag he was also a project
A project that isnāt willing to put the time in. Time to draft a WR. Thereās a kid out of V Tech that will be available in the late rounds. Think his last name is Mann. Got similar style to Toney.
Oh no. Keep him on the roster, let camp, preseason, regular seaon go on, then try and move him, and you will see lowest value. It goes downhill from here, mate.
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
Really? Perhaps Toney and his rep from last year is the reason. Perhaps the talks with him have gone poorly! Perhaps his teammates want nothing to do with him!
And I think Daboll and Schoen know it. Keep in mind they had scouting reports on him from when they were with the Bills. Perhaps they (the Bills) had decided no way we draft this character. Who knows.
If I am the Giants I try and get the Pats interested with JJ on their staff now. Perhaps Atlanta, KC, Tennessee and even AZ. We shouldn't get hung up on the return as much has addition by subtraction.
RE: Passing on Parsons and drafting Toney, while foolish, Ā
is not as idiotic as drafting Barkley when the Giants could have drafted Josh Allen on the 1st round and Nick Chubb on the 2nd round in 2018 (which is what I thought they should have done).
Josh Allen was in 2019 in the Daniel Jones draft with the 6th overall pick.
My way or the highway....
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice. Toney - ( New Window )
I wouldn't want anyone on my team I had to "connect with."
I wouldn't want anyone on my team who didn't appreciate the opportunity he was given and try and make the most of it.
Anyone can do the bare minimum and show up when they have to. Give me guys who'll go above and beyond that, especially when they haven't proven a Goddamned thing in this league yet.
On paper, I agree as Parsons is the best rookie defensive player I've seen in a long, long time. Not LT but no one is really.
We have to see how we do with this year's #1. If we get an All-Pro OT or ER or CB well its all good. The Giants messed up by not assessing both Baker's and Toney's "mental / emotional /cognitive / spritiual" side well enough. I mean, I know you roll the dice with young guys but some questionable guys ya gotta say no. That is what happened with Parsons and that is what will happen with Thibodeux this year too. They both fell due to personal issues and such as much as anything else.
My thought right now is this: 1. Toney isn't going anywhere right now as no one will give us an early #2 for him. No chance of that and the cap hit. 2. Toney better show up in camp and play and stay healthy. 3. Ugly - he is an ass in camp and sits the season, a wasted pick and well he gets cut or traded or whatever.
Toney may be a child in a man's body, gifted with talent that he can't use due to his lack of maturity. We shall see.
"heartbroken" may sound extreme, but that's what I'm feeling...The Andre Baker draft and Parson's avoidance make this stranger.
It was such a good idea (trade for no.20 and no.7 [as it turns out] in 2022. But how do you pick up a guy with red flags when you passed on Parson's for red flags?.
And of course we have the hindsight powered posters damning the Giants for not picking Parson's in spite of red flags while suggesting we shouldn't have picked this red flagged clown.
My personal thoughts with many qualifications because all generalizations have exceptions. Generally speaking, I think anyone who has rings in their nose and tats like this guy and the track record he has, have fried brains. Beat up that statement all you want, generally speaking it's true. I don't think anyone will ever connect and, moreover, I think he's made a conscious decision: "I like the feeling and accomplishment that music and mind altering chemicals provide, I have enough money to last a lifetime, I don't want to be beat up and work like hell to get in shape and limp when I"m fifty."
I think we project our standards, our hopes, values and aspirations onto people who have made conscious choices to dance with their own hopes, values and aspirations.
All said with the hope that i'm wrong and recognizing that I may well be.
The people hoping that this will be a wake up call or motivate him to be a team guy are relying on the premise that he gives a shit at all about football, and thats where they are wrong.
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
Really? Perhaps Toney and his rep from last year is the reason. Perhaps the talks with him have gone poorly! Perhaps his teammates want nothing to do with him!
When the coach calls and says " hey, why don't you stop by and pick up the playbook" the one everyonw else is already studying, and he comes back with " Nah thanks, I'm busy right now with other things, let ME send YOU my rap music instead", well, I don't need to know anything else, about guns, or cleats, or no friends, or absent from cap, or injuries, or docs saying we think he's good to go, but then doesn't want to play cuz self diagnosed boo boos and owwies.
when coach says get playbook, and you say no, here's my shitty music instead that YOU, coach, should check out, well, I gave him an A+ for creativity, because i couldn't think of a better way to shit on the coach or piss in his eye if I tried. And then makes out like it's all cool and coach enjoyed being bitched. Seriously, it's about as emasculating as you can get, and I think you just can't keep a guy like that without hurting your own perception as a leader with the rest of the team. He's got to go. Has to.
RE: Can't get this guy off the roster fast enough... Ā
And couldn't care less what we get in return. The respect that Schoen and Daboll will earn for doing so will be infinitely more valuable than any one player, draft pick or additional cap space.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Conversely, the loss of respect for keeping him will be crippling.
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
No dude. It wasn't the decision he made not to show up on the 4th. How about the decisions he's made since then, like on the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, .......
And no, if he shows up and has a decent year I wont change my mind.If he gets over 1000yds receiving, is key in winning a few games, and does it again next year, then I'll change my mind. I doubt he's even here that long.
Not even to pick up the playbook, could he stop by for. that says everything. He doesn't even want to give the coaches a chance to meet him before they make decisions in the draft. He couldn't give a fuck less.
My way or the highway....
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice. Toney - ( New Window )
I wouldn't want anyone on my team I had to "connect with."
I wouldn't want anyone on my team who didn't appreciate the opportunity he was given and try and make the most of it.
Anyone can do the bare minimum and show up when they have to. Give me guys who'll go above and beyond that, especially when they haven't proven a Goddamned thing in this league yet.
Nice post. I concur.
RE: Toney and Galloway will be gone after this year Ā
The offense will be a huge question this year. If we build OL we should look to move on from Jones if possible and grab Willis in first round.
I feel for a rookie QB who not only is raw as hell and needs to learn, also isn't accurate, to play and play with subpar skill players. He's being sent out to die.
They pass on Parsons because of character issues, trade back and draft a player with character issues
This is the part that pisses me off too. We draw the line in the sand at Parsons, can't draft him because of red flags. Meanwhile it is the same FO that traded up into the first round to take DeAndre Baker, and then ignores red flags to draft Toney.
But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
"Rules"???
It doesn't matter what the "rules" are... anyone with half a brain knows that Toney is hurting himself and his teammates by not showing up. He's falling behind. You don't have to believe me, Daboll said it.
If you have new bosses, and 90 percent of your co-workers are in the classroom learning what they need to learn in order to be ready for their new job (remember OTAs are coming up next month) and you aren't there, it's noticed. The Giants aren't doing this Toney. Toney is doing it to himself.
what an effin disaster; yet another first round bust! Is there anything to salvage from this? Maybe he can make himself useful to NYG for the 2022 season.
Art Stapleton
ā
@art_stapleton
š§µJoe Schoen at Combine on March 1:
"I donāt think Kadarius [Toney] is a tradable piece. Again, if somebody calls, weāre gonna listen. But, heās a good young player that our coaches really like. Weāve been in constant contact with him and weāre excited to see what he can do."
Are the Giants "shopping" Toney, which was the buzz generated by @PLeonardNYDN report last night? I can't confirm or refute that. Seems to be a lot of semantics being used around the league, from what I can gather. That's what Schoen said last month when asked directly about KT.
Does Toney's absence for the voluntary offseason program cast a different light on his immediate future? Absolutely. Suggesting it doesn't would be disingenuous. But I don't know if Giants have decided that now he has to go.
Entirely possible what's changed is Giants' evaluation of the WR class, and maybe some interest in Toney around the league. Smart move could be to weigh what they could get in return, and what the replacement value is in this draft.
Toney's not Schoen's first-round pick. š¤·āāļø
There is a fear of selling low, but Schoen's job is to rebuild this team. No one on this roster has done enough to be considered untouchable.
Will Toney be traded? I believe that only a Sith deals in absolutes. I've seen enough on this beat to not rule it out.
- sends a message to KT, possibly motivates him
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
- sends a message to KT, possibly motivates him
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
made the proposal I was thinking: KT and Bradberry to KC for #29 and #94.
They get their new Tyreek and a stable vet CB, we move the KT enigma, can stay @#5  ,unless they get a blown away offer, get presumably Sauce or ER and an OL then a good player at #29.
Cmon KC! Do it! You got Deandre for a donut, and a shot at getting back better for almost nothing again.
ā This is not a move that would create cap flexibility. I don't know the specifics, but they'd be taking on cap rather than gaining space if they were to move Toney.ā
just because he skipped out on some voluntary meet n' greet practices?
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
RE: RE: So we have almost no cap and we are going to add to it Ā
just because he skipped out on some voluntary meet n' greet practices?
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
I am paying attention to what I read on the site from some and how they refer to the voluntary offseason activities...
best teams for Toney to be on are Raiders, Dolphins, Steelers, Rams Ā
just because he skipped out on some voluntary meet n' greet practices?
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
I am paying attention to what I read on the site from some and how they refer to the voluntary offseason activities...
You can call them voluntary all you want. And the GM and HC have to say that or they will get fined. But the fact that Toney is being shopped is proof that neither considers them voluntary (and for good reason).
The people who watched the Papa interview of Daboll and Schoen yesterday came to the same conclusion before this all started.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So we have almost no cap and we are going to add to it Ā
Why not? The Giants have already done it this offseason (see Logan Ryan).
That actually saved them cap space the rest was just dead money already accounted for
Only $775,000 (same as a cheap UFA) and it will cost them if they lose the grievance.
So we could be adding even more? I just donāt see how this makes sense. Post June trade saves them money not cost them but they would obviously want to do it now or during the draft. Shitty situation that gives us zero leverage right now
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
- sends a message to KT, possibly motivates him
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
This sounds pretty spot on. I admittedly knew very little about the guy when they drafted him, but on draft night when they started talking about his rap career I was concerned.
It seems like his primary focus is on his outside interests and heās only playing football to grab some extra cash in parallel.
Itās one thing for an established star to pass on voluntary workouts (although with a new coaching staff thatās probably not good either), but for a player who missed a lot of time his rookie year with various injuries, shoe issues, etc. itās a bad look.
Toney was training in that Alabama forest for a least a day Ā
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
Completely agree. And him being a first round pick is irrelevant, for all we know Buffalo did not have a first round grade on him last year.
Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
Fully comprehend that we are talking about being a professional football player, an occupation where employees are fired all of the time. Imagine working for a company where 1/3 of your co-workers are fired each year. Some get fired a month after they are "hired".
In that type of environment where many are walking on eggshells because you are judged on your performance on a weekly basis, the employees who committed to their jobs and good at their jobs are the ones who are going to survive. COMMITMENT. Is your job important to you? (In this case, is football important to you?)
If the answer is no, your shelf life just dramatically decreased. They aren't going to put up with it.
Probably a bad analogy because social gatherings are far less important than classroom and field study, but why do you think employees show up at stupid corporate picnics? No one wants to be there, but they know if they don't, it's noticed. Now imagine if at the picnic, your bosses were actually teaching you something you needed to know in order to do your job.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
RE: Good breakdown here, says post June 1 trade makes more sense Ā
Again depending on the situation What could a trade for Giantsā Kadarius Toney look like? NFL evaluators weigh in - ( New Window )
The problem is there is a mandatory mini-camp coming up. You want to get into a situation where the Giants tell him not to show up? That sounds like something that would quickly escalate.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
You really need to stop worrying so much about this seasons cap space. This season was ALWAYS going to be about purging the roster of all the disasters from the Gettleman era. Everyone that has been paying attention knows this season was going to be about taking the pain now to create a better path in future years. They arenāt going to be over the cap. No need to lose sleep over it or give yourself ulcers worrying about it so much.
RE: RE: Good breakdown here, says post June 1 trade makes more sense Ā
Again depending on the situation What could a trade for Giantsā Kadarius Toney look like? NFL evaluators weigh in - ( New Window )
The problem is there is a mandatory mini-camp coming up. You want to get into a situation where the Giants tell him not to show up? That sounds like something that would quickly escalate.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
You really need to stop worrying so much about this seasons cap space. This season was ALWAYS going to be about purging the roster of all the disasters from the Gettleman era. Everyone that has been paying attention knows this season was going to be about taking the pain now to create a better path in future years. They arenāt going to be over the cap. No need to lose sleep over it or give yourself ulcers worrying about it so much.
Did you read what I said? I was wondering about when it made sense but that article confirmed it. Post June 1 makes the most sense cap Wise for a team Iām cap trouble. Thatās absolutely a factor, one of many. Iām entitled to my opinion and speculation which is what this thread is for :)
I continue to be impressed with Schoen's understanding of Ā
I commented RE: Bradberry that it was refreshing to see him have a very clear sense of value. He didn't like the offers and didn't trade him, he wasn't set on a move one way or another. That was DG's biggest weakness, he'd get tunnel vision.
I agree with many that Schoen and Daboll are annoyed by Toney's behavior and maybe doing this is more a message than an indication that they think they will get fair value. But I think that's why there will be no move. I think you'd have to get at least a 3rd rounder for him and nobody is going to offer that.
RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
Well I guess Gettleman and Judge must rely on The Sporting News mocks instead of better football judgment. Toney was a Day 2 WR if you saw him play and looked at who was still on the board.
And I didn't say the Giants didn't need WR help. Of course they did and now that they picked a moron they still do...
"listening to calls" to "shopping a player". Who knows which it is. Seems dumb to make the roster weaker in this area unless you can get at least a second-round pick so you can replace him. But that seems like a reach.
RE: RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
Well I guess Gettleman and Judge must rely on The Sporting News mocks instead of better football judgment. Toney was a Day 2 WR if you saw him play and looked at who was still on the board.
And I didn't say the Giants didn't need WR help. Of course they did and now that they picked a moron they still do...
There are plenty more articles like that with scouts saying Day 1 pick
RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
My guess is that it's very much like that Eric. IMO, Toney sent his message to the front office by not showing up even though he was pressed by his own teammates. There are times when "voluntary" isn't really voluntary, and this is one of those times.
Daboll didn't have to say that Toney never got his playbook, he put it out there for a reason. No movement from Toney to come in, so the next thing is get a leak to the press that he could be traded. Again, to me, it seems like they are trying to get it into his head that he's not going to be around here long. Schoen, Brown, and Daboll didn't draft him. They all have the complete backing of the ownership to do whatever they want with this roster.
And I mentioned this on twitter, the Giants could be trying to take advantage of the Deebo market. Toney isn't as good a player (obviously), but he could be a decent discount option for a team who either misses out on Deebo or feels the price tag is too high. If you are ever going to float his name on the market, right before the draft is when you do it.
The guy has a world of talent. But right now, he's flashed no more than Thomas Lewis did as a 1st round pick who had a couple of nice games but was always hurt.
I remember back in 2000, Ron Dixon kept oversleeping and his father made a comment in the press that he's going to screw up a golden opportunity. So his dad was making sure he got up to get to practice and workouts etc. Dixon made some exciting plays, got hurt and was gone. Ultimately, I think the Giants are trying to scare him straight. The question is, is Toney smart enough, or does he care enough, to figure that out before it's too late.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
Maybe it was on fire because he led the team in yards from scrimmage š
doesnāt understand the concept of team and how successful organizations are built. Of course not everyone has to be exactly the same, but if a player rejects or resists multiple reach out attempts by the new regime, itās clear they are part of the problem and not the solution. There really is such a thing as addition by subtraction. KT has shown potential but not nearly enough to justify prima donna status or special treatment. Get the best deal possible for him and move on ... there are lots of guys out there who will appreciate the opportunity to play in the league and give all they got.
I imagine you (and others who posted above) are correct and they are trying to scare him.
But I don't think they are bluffing.
The ball is in his court.
I think it's a bit of both. If the Giants get an offer they like, I think they pull the trigger. But I don't think they dump him for a 4th rounder or whatever. If someone comes along and offers a late 1st or 2nd rounder, my guess is he's gone. I just don't see that market materializing for Toney, so it goes back to them trying to get it into his head that maybe he's not traded this year, but he's not going to see the end of his contract in NY.
Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
dixon had a lot of ability. one of the few fun offensive players they had in that pre-shockey era.
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
I met Ron Dixon as a speech I gave in Florida years ago that was work related. He was a great guy.
am i remembering right that he basically played through some kind of knee injury and then was never the same player when he came back? the loudest i ever heard giants stadium was his return vs eagles.
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
The popular narrative on this site at this time last year was that Judge was gaining more and more control over Gettleman. I don't know if that was true or not, but it seems to be have largely forgotten.
RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
I wish I could remember all of the details, but he basically told me just as his career was taking off, he suffered a knee injury that never really was addressed properly. It basically cut short his career.
RE: RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
Completely agree. Judge had Parsons PSU position coach on his staff and allegedly decided to take him off the board, and yet had "multiple position coaches" vouching for Toney.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
The popular narrative on this site at this time last year was that Judge was gaining more and more control over Gettleman. I don't know if that was true or not, but it seems to be have largely forgotten.
That was just Gettleman defenders looking for someone else to hook their wagon too since he was such an awful GM and they couldn't keep a straight face supporting him any longer...
Judge had 3 guys on his staff that scouted Toney in high school Ā
I wish I could remember all of the details, but he basically told me just as his career was taking off, he suffered a knee injury that never really was addressed properly. It basically cut short his career.
that's how i remember it - unfortunately he got hurt just before ACLs became such a common injury and while it wasn't a death sentence it was close, and there was that micro-fracture procedure that sehorn had done that seemed to have very uncertain outcomes. i don't remember him tearing anything but my guess is he had a meniscus or something and they either tried a repair that didn't go well or something like that.
out of all the off the wall picks ernie made in those years he was the only one who was a legitimate talent.
RE: RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
Agree. The question is how they misevaluated several prospects so badly and decided to overlook red flags with this chucklehead too...
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
Agree. The question is how they misevaluated several prospects so badly and decided to overlook red flags with this chucklehead too...
Or maybe the Giants on talent alone had him on same tier as Waddle, Smith, etc. but knocked him down a tier because of āred flagsā.
They are awful at player and character evaluation and have been Ā
in a million years jamarr chase should not have been picked behind kyle pitts.
parsons and slater falling as far as they did was also crazy.
even sewell went later than most expected.
that's not a good excuse for the nyg though because as mentioned they literally had Parson's position coach on their staff. if anyone could have anticipated his success you would think it'd have been them.
thankfully they got such a high pick this year and hopefully the new regime can correct the mistake. not often teams get a chance at a mulligan but that's exactly what they have with a draft rich in OTs, Edges, and CBs at the top.
The thing is he didnāt really have character flags Ā
Yes they were there but The biggest concern was his desire to play football and thatās not going to show up on a background check. If you even have to question a players heart or passion for the game or his music career being a bigger priority then get him the fuck off your board
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
how odd...
He had Rosen #1 in his draft and Josh Allen #5 in his draft . How odd
We all knew it had to get worse before it got better. Unless IMO your fooling yourself thinking we have a shot to be competitive this season. This kid doesn't care about football enough to put the work in. Red flags were there to prove that.
Get what you can for him and move on. We can replace him, and a lot of our current roster first rounders with day 2/3 level talent.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
Particularly sad because each of next three WRs taken had better years than Toney.
RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
You know, I am glad you brought this up. I felt that Gettleman's draft prep mirrored online mock drafts a little too closely.... as in his prep was lazy. "Oooh, that's a name I recognize! Let's draft him!"
Awful pick, awful trade back and constantly injured. He can't leave fast enough for me, I hate players like this.
I don't think the trade back itself was awful. If they had Parsons off their board, so be it - but that's a separate issue, especially if they flagged Parsons but drafted Toney. If the trade down had resulted in Paye or Darrisaw, as it looked like it might have in that moment immediately before they chose Toney, I think the value of the trade would look better.
for finding a way to reach out and connect with your players.
This looks just as bad for the new regime as it does for Toney.
3 more years of suckitude coming up.
How do you know they haven't been reaching out and getting crickets in return?
RE: RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
Particularly sad because each of next three WRs taken had better years than Toney.
not taking elijah moore was probably the biggest surprise of the draft for me last year. now in fairness he ended up going 14 picks later so it's not like the nfl agreed with me, but if they were going to go WR that seemed a very safe pick.
in fairness though having seen him i do think toney is more talented than moore/bateman/moore even if they had slightly more productive statistical years.
RE: Toneys latest Instagram post šššš Ā
If they really wanted to move Toney they would shut up and not make a move until after he made some circus plays in the early portion of the season.
They wouldn't hurt his value by telegraphing that they want to move on from him while his value is already at a low-point due to injury.
This is a common refrain, but let me ask you this - if you have something in your home that you want to sell, do you think you get more for it by waiting for someone to ask if they can buy it, or if you post it on eBay instead?
You have to let the market know that a product is for sale before anyone tries to buy it. This was a solicitation for offers.
what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
If they were going to use a rumor mill to smoke out a leak, why not use fake draft info instead? They'd achieve the same result without alienating a mercurial player who already seems detached from the team.
If there's a leaky source on Toney, I don't think it was intentional.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hardly anybody should have had a first round grade on him Ā
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
how odd...
He had Rosen #1 in his draft and Josh Allen #5 in his draft . How odd
Sy has hit and misses with the best of them. I didn't bring him into this, you did by mentioning a one off quote from him regarding some others ranking Toney extremely high. And one that he himself didn't care to follow suit on...
RE: The thing is he didnāt really have character flags Ā
Yes they were there but The biggest concern was his desire to play football and thatās not going to show up on a background check. If you even have to question a players heart or passion for the game or his music career being a bigger priority then get him the fuck off your board
I think the time he painted an air rifle to look a real semi-automatic and it took it to a gun fight was a pretty good indicator of bad judgement.
And poor meeting behavior are a few reasons given by PFT article. Report: Giants trying to trade Kadarius Toney - ( New Window )
So they want to trade him yet here are a million reasons why you shouldnāt trade for him. Got it
You could also flip it to realize that Schoen and his braintrust know exactly what the cap implications of trading KT would be, and in a throwaway year, he might be part of the throwaway.
We're at the mercy of the beat, and Pat being the breaking news on this is tough to swallow although he's actually been more accurate recently.
RE: RE: Toneys latest Instagram post šššš Ā
Another lame brain talented bust. Joe Judge must have picked him. Hopefully Schoen uses this player selection to finally convince Mara to get rid of many of his long time scouts. Anyone who signed off on Baker or Toney needs to go.
Toney is talented. Unfortunately he's not a football lifer like we all want, but it's the coaches and FO's job to get him to buy in. I hope this wakes him up, but if not, he's not long for this team.
I wish I could remember all of the details, but he basically told me just as his career was taking off, he suffered a knee injury that never really was addressed properly. It basically cut short his career.
just looked back and it seems he had a PCL injury towards the end of his 3rd year (2002) but the team didn't do surgery on it until June 2003 before training camp. It was an arthroscopic procedure and at the time they expected him to be ready for camp, but he lingered on PUP and ultimately never made it back on an NFL field.
2002 (his 3rd year) had been his best with 3 starts in 10 games, 22 receptions for 337 yards (17.1 per catch) and 2 tds.
the injury supposedly occurred against the vikings on 11/10/02 - which was a nyg win where he had 4 receptions for 107 yards.
he sat out 2 weeks and then came back for a game against Tennessee where he had 5 receptions for 93 yards and a td.
he then sat out until the playoffs but came back for the meltdown in SF where he had 5 receptions for 52 yards.
all told those were probably the 3 best games of his career as a receiver and sadly the last as well.
Another lame brain talented bust. Joe Judge must have picked him. Hopefully Schoen uses this player selection to finally convince Mara to get rid of many of his long time scouts. Anyone who signed off on Baker or Toney needs to go.
Unfortunately the Maras are the head of human resource psych evaluation process, who have shown repeatedly bad judgement of people sabotaging and interfering with their own head coach hiring process egging along FLores of all people, a couple of mealy mouths who have never worked for or accomplished jack squat in the real world.
Toney is talented. Unfortunately he's not a football lifer like we all want, but it's the coaches and FO's job to get him to buy in. I hope this wakes him up, but if not, he's not long for this team.
RE: Yeah, Toney is great. So great we should have just stayed at #11 Ā
and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
and picked Micah Parsons there. Oh, you don't say, maybe a
red flag there for Micah? There are not a bunch of choir boys coming out of college these days. The stuff about Parsons was minimal anyhow. Another great move by 'Getts'.
And poor meeting behavior are a few reasons given by PFT article. Report: Giants trying to trade Kadarius Toney - ( New Window )
So they want to trade him yet here are a million reasons why you shouldnāt trade for him. Got it
You could also flip it to realize that Schoen and his braintrust know exactly what the cap implications of trading KT would be, and in a throwaway year, he might be part of the throwaway.
We're at the mercy of the beat, and Pat being the breaking news on this is tough to swallow although he's actually been more accurate recently.
Agreed. I think this team being remotely competitive this year would be a miracle. Even if they have a great draft the roster will be largely turned over. Continuity is important if you are really looking to compete. Take your lumps now, clear the locker room of problems and move on.
If this team knocks it out of the park with this draft, finds a way to showcase Barkley early in the season to land a decent pick, and maneuvers to get a QB in next years draft (where we will presumably be picking top 10) they may be competitive sooner than later.
dixon had a lot of ability. one of the few fun offensive players they had in that pre-shockey era.
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
I met Ron Dixon as a speech I gave in Florida years ago that was work related. He was a great guy.
.
I thought Dixon helped the Giants more in the return game than as a receiver. Didn't he return a kickoff in the SB,
that folks don't want to talk about?
As for Thomas Lewis, pretty much a bust, didn't do much.
Besides Parsons, what about the misevaluation of Ā
First three seasons at Florida (27 games)...
-- 2 receiving TDs, 1 rushing TD, 1 passing TD.
-- No games over 75 yards receiving.
-- 40 yards or less receiving in 22 of these 27 games.
-- 0-2 catches in a game in 20 of these 27 games
-- Two bowl game appearances (2018-2019), he averaged: 1.0 rec., for -0.5 yards, and 0.0 TDs.
The bulk of Toneyās eye-catching production came in his final five college games (Four of final 5 games with 100+ receiving yards)
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
interesting - they definitely end up in a spot where the talent drop was noticeable. the only players left on the board even loosely discussed prior for #11 were rousseau and paye.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
So they didnāt have Bateman or Moore on their board? I find that difficult to believe. Judges staff has loved Toney for a while and his press conference tells me this was an easy decision for them.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
š
Dave delivers the goofs all the time.
Took us by surprise
Unprepared
We werenāt sure
Flying by the seat of his pants
or trading Slayton saves $2.5M IIRC. Slayton had a lot of drops last year, and is a FA next year. It's very unlikely he'll get a second contract from the Giants.
I'd be surprised if Toney isn't traded at this point. Schoen and Daboll didn't draft him and many other people in the FO are apparently also tired of him.
Schoen saying at the combine that Toney wasn't a "tradable piece" was before he skipped the voluntary workouts. I think Eric is right. My guess is Schoen and Daboll have had enough of Toney and are also surprised at how this team was run before they arrived.
I'm happy with a fourth or high fifth for Toney. Sometimes you have to take losses. What hurts is that this is the second time we've had to do so with a first round player about whom there were real character concerns before they were drafted.
Maybe Iām crazy but Iām glad he made the trade still Ā
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
they only trade Toney if āthey get a good enough offerā. If youāve decided he needs to go, you get the best offer possible, and move on. If itās a fourth, so be it. I think the tipping point is first day of mandatory mini camp. Getting assets for this year would be great. They can āscareā this guy all they want. Heās not suddenly, going to be a good soldier. Music is important to him. Nothing else is. It wonāt change. They have either come to that conclusion or are fast approaching it.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Even with 10 minutes, DG needed more time to flip through his huge binder and figure out who was the best value there, meanwhile JJ had tunnel vision on Toney and that ended up being the card they handed in.
No more binders.
Toney to Patriots back with Judge and becoming an All-Pro Ā
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
They wanted Smith or Waddle. The "they wanted more weapons for Jones" line feels like a quip when in reality it was truly the best thing to do, especially going forward. Slayton's play fell off a cliff and Shepard was always hurt. It was a very good WR class. I had no bones for that decision. He was also slated to go between 20-32 as most mocks had him there. It comes down to scouting and interviews when you find these real concerns within their ambition and selflessness as a teammate.
Actually Thank God for Tisch finally walking up to Mara and Ā
Why can't we package Toney to KC for more picks. He would probably enjoy playing with Mahomes and we can get a package if we parlay the #5 or 7 with him.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Appreciate you chiming in, and if memory serves that story about not being prepared for a scenario that landed us pick #20 lines up with the rumors that were shared at the time last year
Trading Toney will accelerate $2.4M dollars in cap liability, which when all is said and done will require the Giants to cut a player like Slayton (in addition to other moves).
Trading Toney will accelerate $2.4M dollars in cap liability, which when all is said and done will require the Giants to cut a player like Slayton (in addition to other moves).
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
Every Gettleman player removed from the roster is a victory. Every single one.
Trading Toney will accelerate $2.4M dollars in cap liability, which when all is said and done will require the Giants to cut a player like Slayton (in addition to other moves).
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
Every Gettleman player removed from the roster is a victory. Every single one.
Schoen isnāt getting rid of Thomas, McKinney or Ojulari nor should he.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
They wanted Smith or Waddle. The "they wanted more weapons for Jones" line feels like a quip when in reality it was truly the best thing to do, especially going forward. Slayton's play fell off a cliff and Shepard was always hurt. It was a very good WR class. I had no bones for that decision. He was also slated to go between 20-32 as most mocks had him there. It comes down to scouting and interviews when you find these real concerns within their ambition and selflessness as a teammate.
It was most definitely not the best thing to do had they not traded back. The choice was Parsons or Slater. They were both generous gifts given to this organization by the vagaries of the draft that were ignored while the "smartest guys in the room" were focused on their own needs aka crap. And this is not hindsight - it was as clear as day at the time. And if they wanted to "reach" for a WR at twenty, then Bateman was the better choice there, but suboptimal in comparison to Darrisaw or Paye. Also not hindsight.
Can't keep making excuses for bad decision making.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Jeez Louise that is soooo similar to 1996 when the Giants panicked and picked Cedric Jones... Except the Giants did trade back, so there's that at least... YET THEY WERE STILL UNPREPARED!!!!
Trading Toney will accelerate $2.4M dollars in cap liability, which when all is said and done will require the Giants to cut a player like Slayton (in addition to other moves).
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
the cap is way less important than draft capital. that has to be the priority.
the importance of this years draft cannot be overstated. when all said and done they are likely to have more than 2 drafts worth of draft capital.
This is a clear sign that Schoen is firmly in charge. A first round pick after one year put on notice publicly is most certainly not an ownership call.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
How could the trade with the Bears have been a surprise? DG said in his post draft press conference that he had spoken with the Bears' GM before the draft. He said the Bears' GM called him several days before the draft about moving up and that he spoke with him again during the draft before pick #11.
Did the Giants really believe that AVT would last until pick #20? That would be surprising since there were rumors he would have been the pick at #11 if we had not made the trade with the Bears.
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
This describes Incompetence at the highest possible level!
How could they not have mocked a scenario where the WR they advertised they wanted wasn't there and the Bears would be interested in moving up for a QB?
So they go with a WR because they wanted one for DJ. Totally forced that pick.
The dude faked injury last yr so he wouldnt have to play in those last games. I wanted him cut or traded even if he showed up. He's taking a spot of someone who actually wants to play football. You will never win anything with starters like him.
The dude faked injury last yr so he wouldnt have to play in those last games. I wanted him cut or traded even if he showed up. He's taking a spot of someone who actually wants to play football. You will never win anything with starters like him.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
And let's for the sake of argument say Eli wasn't done or Jones isn't a bad QB, do you want your owner dictating to the personnel shop, "Get my QB more weapons!"
Do you guys see now why I say this reminds me of the Eli Manning situation?
Sorry, Eric, can you explain?
"Eli's not done! All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
"Daniel is not a bad QB. All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
I don't get the complaining about the Giant's "fixation" and "blinders" about getting WRs for your QB by some of bbi's most savvy posters. You have to go out of your way to do it. Like flying up the draft board for Julio Jones for noodle armed Matt Ryan and trading picks for Diggs for scattershot Allen.
Lets just say Brandon Marshall and Toney are not exactly Jones and Diggs...
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
And let's for the sake of argument say Eli wasn't done or Jones isn't a bad QB, do you want your owner dictating to the personnel shop, "Get my QB more weapons!"
Itās a simple, obvious problem. The owner has favorite players and heās not shy about it.
Schoen needs to sit Mara down and make him watch the scene in Moneyball where Brad Pitt explains to Jonah Hill why you canāt have a relationship with a player.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
How could anyone tell? We drafted one of the best rbs in college just to see him get hit 4 yds in the back field about 70 percent of the time. I know that doesnt make Jones good but not a singl nfl qb would look good here. Not a single one.
If he didnāt interject for OBJ he has no reason to here Ā
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
How could anyone tell? We drafted one of the best rbs in college just to see him get hit 4 yds in the back field about 70 percent of the time. I know that doesnt make Jones good but not a singl nfl qb would look good here. Not a single one.
The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
After that we should be hoping something compels the Maras to sell the team to someone who won't treat it like a way to give jobs to family and friends.
RE: RE: RE: So Mara will approve the trade and risk losing a Jones weapon? Ā
If I interpreted it wrong, then my bad. No big deal.
It did imply that.
It implied itās a possibility not a given circumstance. Mara and his guys are everywhere we just canāt really measure their impact. So purely speculation
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
You are worked up about a lot of things. You should blame Toney being a moron on Chris Mara because he has the player personnel titleā¦
I have 2 comments:
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
You are worked up about a lot of things. You should blame Toney being a moron on Chris Mara because he has the player personnel titleā¦
I have 2 comments:
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
i agree with this sentiment but its hard to see anyone offering a second, or even a third, for toney given that he's now cemented his reputation as a guy who doesn't show like to show up for voluntaries, doesn't like to practice, can't stay on the field, isn't very productive when he plays, and has been credibly accused of faking injury to get out of playing late in the season.
The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
I have 2 comments:
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
Would you give up a 2nd or 3rd for Toney? I wouldn't.
The Giants should sell Toney and every other player they can for whatever they can get. If it's a bunch of 7th rounders in 2037, so be it.
It's a roster filled entirely with garbage. The important thing is to be rid of the garbage.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
After that we should be hoping something compels the Maras to sell the team to someone who won't treat it like a way to give jobs to family and friends.
I would say most owners in the league fall into this. I am not worried about ownership at the moment as we finally made moves away from the tried and true Ny Giants way.
The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
Then whyās everyone so confident Daboll and Schoen are the answers then?
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
I heard the same, no plan or remaining targets by 20, and Judge pushed hard for Toney.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
Is there any precedent for this in the history of the NFL, post merger? In the span of three years, a team giving up on two of their 1st round picks after only one year?!?
The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
I heard the same, no plan or remaining targets by 20, and Judge pushed hard for Toney.
Trade him.
Knew it was Judge. Get the Patriots on the lineā¦.
The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
The problem too is it is run like a family-operated business. That's a great work environment for the employees. It's wonderful too for the owners for a variety of reasons IF.... and it's a big IF... the operation works well.
If it doesn't, friendships and loyalties can get in the way of making rational decisions. The Giants never will be a cutthroat corporate environment (and I don't really want them to be), but you have to be able to make tough decisions and get rid of people who are not performing.
And I've said this before, let's assume Chris and Tim have no pull in the building (would seem odd given their lofty titles but let's just go with it). Why would you open yourself up to charges of incompetent nepotism??? Just tell Chris and Tim to step aside and pursue other hobbies... come to the games on Sunday. And John should know by now that he personally is not good at getting involved in personnel decisions. How many times does he have to be proven wrong before he looks in the mirror and says, "I'm the problem."?
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
Is there any precedent for this in the history of the NFL, post merger? In the span of three years, a team giving up on two of their 1st round picks after only one year?!?
I don't know, but this is a catastrophic development. Bad teams can't simply afford to keep doing this. It's like someone being told they are another $10,000 in debt when they already can't make the minimum payment on their credit cards.
on Toney is crap right now... he has shown good ability... he plays and puts up good numbers and his value would go up... you don't win by selling low or buying high.
this is the sort of stuff we would laugh at the Jets and Jags for, shitty organizations with shitty owners. The Giants problems goes deeper than just poor player evaluation and vetting.
It's a roster filled entirely with garbage. The important thing is to be rid of the garbage.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
If this is how you feel why donāt you take a break from the Giants and this board until 2037! Weāll fill you in on what you missed!
Most everyone on this board could use a break from you and your contempt; maybe you the most of all.
I have 2 comments:
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
Would you give up a 2nd or 3rd for Toney? I wouldn't.
The Giants should sell Toney and every other player they can for whatever they can get. If it's a bunch of 7th rounders in 2037, so be it.
It's a roster filled entirely with garbage. The important thing is to be rid of the garbage.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
I dont think Terps is a moron. I actually agree with a lot of his views on the state of the team. But this here....this is a truly moronic statement.
This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
they're struggling to evaluate not only football talent and fit but individual character and personality, they're missing flaws left and right.
I just went for a walk with the wife and was trying to explain this to her... and I finished with... "and get this, they didn't draft Parsons because of 'character concerns'"!
Toney and I think the story is BS. Unless Toney went out of his way to say shit to Daboll or Schoen I cant see the Giants trading him because he didnt show up to a voluntary camp. Your dumping a player for basically nothing because of some teams had him as a 2nd last year they wouldnt give up more than a 4th or 5th this year with a strong WR draft.
This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
It's not about emotion, and whether those three guys can play is not the only consideration. It's also a question of timing relative to their second contracts and aligning that with this massive rebuilding project.
I like that this became public. This clown needed a wake up call Ā
This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
It's not about emotion, and whether those three guys can play is not the on consideration. It's also a question of timing relative to their second contracts and aligning that with this massive rebuilding project.
Of course but thatās a little ways away and no need to make a decision today when the new regime hasnāt even been in pads with them yet. The Giants have plenty of cap space to build a roster with a blend of rookies and veterans. Until thereās some indication they arenāt a fit or prohibitive to building a winning team It seems they are seen as worthy roster and cap space to Schoen. This guy was part of a huge and successful overhaul in BUF so letās see what he does
Schoen has made it clear positional value relative to their pay scale is certainty important. He sees the sky rocketing pay these wide receivers are getting, and maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling he's not one to pay big top dollar money to a wide receiver unless it's under expressed circumstances. Be it age, philosophy, or something like that. I think he very well will value guys like Ojulari and Thomas big because they're on the trenches. Those win ball games. McKinney is the outlier because S isn't exactly a premium position but it is one that hardens the line on versatility. Cover S are very difficult to come by. You have your Seahawks out here giving up 1sts and big dollars to a box S like Jamal Adams. He ain't worth that, and I'm sure Brian and Joe agree. McKinney is a different breed and if he can maintain his play as he did in the final 13 games of 2020, he's a great candidate for an extension and one deserved.
Are people actually discussing Mara meddling on this thread? Ā
The fact that this is out there publiclly about a former first rounder in his second year is so obviously a sign of Schoen firmly in charge. When Mara fucks up the next time, we should all call him out for it. When heās doing things right, acknowledge or say nothing. Zero reason to call ownership out here. If anything opposite is warranted in this case.
The fallacy is disfunction comes by way of Chris and Tim having a secret shed in the back where they break down tape, or John walking around in a Jones jersey and cutoffs.
Disfunction like the Giants have builds, is subtle, and a lot of time the last people who know itās happening are the people who could stop it.
Bottom line, ownership in whatever form shouldnāt have a real or ceremonial seat at the scouting table, and ownership shouldnāt go in front of the press and defend their favorite players.
Schoen will have to build up his credibility with ownership, because the non-credible work Reese and Gettleman did over the last decade has opened up ownershipās desire to fill that vacuum.
RE: Are people actually discussing Mara meddling on this thread? Ā
The fact that this is out there publiclly about a former first rounder in his second year is so obviously a sign of Schoen firmly in charge. When Mara fucks up the next time, we should all call him out for it. When heās doing things right, acknowledge or say nothing. Zero reason to call ownership out here. If anything opposite is warranted in this case.
This is a fair point.
It's out of frustration for sins of the recent past.
That said, Mara is still publicly commenting on specific personnel issues (he did after both introductory press conferences and at the owners' meeting). The fear is if he is still doing that publicly, what is he telling his employees privately?
Jeff Howe
@jeffphowe
Ā·
15m
Giants WR Kadarius Toney has an intriguing trade market. While Iāve heard from some teams that have no interest, others are high on the talent and ability to let him develop in their system. Sounds like heās been available for a little while. The draft should create urgency.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
Heās going to be playing Wordle on his iPhone in the war room.
I love how you guys get worked up with Johnās little brother in the hen houseā¦
Ah, this again.
YOU are the one peddling conspiracy theories. He's the senior VP of player personnel, which means he's had a hand in all of the suckage since 2012. It's up to YOU to prove it's a figurehead do-nothing title. Which you have failed to do consistently, to the point that we question if you aren't a Mara yourself.
last night... Toney can still salvage this situation (I think). But he's got to show up soon.
If he does: a motivated KT helps the team - a positive
If he doesnāt:
players see the importance of showing up - a positive
Possibly trade bait - a positive
If this info leak wasnāt intentional, it sure is a happy accident.
they're struggling to evaluate not only football talent and fit but individual character and personality, they're missing flaws left and right.
I said this in another thread. Whoever theyāre listening to outside the organization (Cutcliffe, Alabama coaches, etc.) they need to cut them out, now. Those people are not doing us any favors.
RE: RE: Are people actually discussing Mara meddling on this thread? Ā
The fact that this is out there publiclly about a former first rounder in his second year is so obviously a sign of Schoen firmly in charge. When Mara fucks up the next time, we should all call him out for it. When heās doing things right, acknowledge or say nothing. Zero reason to call ownership out here. If anything opposite is warranted in this case.
This is a fair point.
It's out of frustration for sins of the recent past.
That said, Mara is still publicly commenting on specific personnel issues (he did after both introductory press conferences and at the owners' meeting). The fear is if he is still doing that publicly, what is he telling his employees privately?
Jeff Howe
@jeffphowe
Ā·
15m
Giants WR Kadarius Toney has an intriguing trade market. While Iāve heard from some teams that have no interest, others are high on the talent and ability to let him develop in their system. Sounds like heās been available for a little while. The draft should create urgency.
they're struggling to evaluate not only football talent and fit but individual character and personality, they're missing flaws left and right.
I said this in another thread. Whoever theyāre listening to outside the organization (Cutcliffe, Alabama coaches, etc.) they need to cut them out, now. Those people are not doing us any favors.
get him person. If BD can reach him and he starts to shine it will pay dividends and give him credibility and not a bad thing for someone looking for his very first win. If it blows up I think the players will respect the effort.
I also understand the sending a message crowd. Maybe JS just listens and keeps in his hip pocket.....for now.
This is very unlike just about any other business. Lot of other factors are in play imv.
The last ten years suck. Can't really think of another scenario where you had a two time SB winning QB (early in his prime) and HC (who had won everywhere before) where it went so bad. 2012-? (16, 17, 18). Really sad.
Schoen apparently has the green light to do as he please no matter what the short term financial pain to the organization. The organization is essentially throwing KT under the bus to make a needed point. Winning teams need two things...talent and a winning locker room culture. The latter can be the hardest part but also make the largest impact. Maybe Toney wises up and avoids getting traded, or the Giants get rid of him for a 5th round pick. Either is a win.
The fact that this is out there publiclly about a former first rounder in his second year is so obviously a sign of Schoen firmly in charge. When Mara fucks up the next time, we should all call him out for it. When heās doing things right, acknowledge or say nothing. Zero reason to call ownership out here. If anything opposite is warranted in this case.
Uber - the meddling isnāt happening right now. Some posters, including me, were blaming Maraās early 2020 āget Jones some weaponsā statement for influencing organizational thinking leading to an overdrafting of Toney. Thatās the context.
Personally, I think he is trash and he is not worth anymore than a 6th round pick, if I am a GM of another franchise. Form the Giants side, I would initially ask for 2nd or 3rd, but would be happy with a 4th. Might be able to get another TE, RB or another WR in that range.
empirically. In a vacuum, I suspect Schoen would can most of the roster. The salary cap makes that impossible. What it seems like heās done, is after an organizational evaluation, heās determined who is part of the solution, who ācouldā be, and who needs to go. Logan Ryan was part of this last group. So is Bradberry and we now know Toney.
Toney is who he is. You dump him for ( as GT said) a seventh rounder in 2037 if you have to.
We have to hope Schoen and Daboll are the start of a new chapter in team history where decisions are being made correctly, for the right reasons. Otherwise we are screened. 2nd #1 draft choice dumped after a year ( of the last few years?) Doesnāt matter, not from this regime. Virtually none of these players are going to matter in the grand scheme of things.
Itās also pretty obvious itās going to take two years to fix the cap and clean out the garbage. Whatever, as long as they are making progress. Winning may not come until 2024. So be it if itās then sustainable
even if the comment influenced, which i highly doubt, when in a million years would anyone in the mara family choose the guy with an arrest under dubious circumstances when there were other players on the board with higher consensus grades at the exact same position, without any arrests in their history?
i swear some of you guys see your own shadow with this stuff.
the problem wasn't that they picked a WR.
the problem is that they picked a knucklehead.
and that they did so despite having coaches on staff who were very familiar with him going back to when he was a HS recruit.
another reason to be greatful those coaches are no longer here.
Personally, I think he is trash and he is not worth anymore than a 6th round pick, if I am a GM of another franchise. Form the Giants side, I would initially ask for 2nd or 3rd, but would be happy with a 4th. Might be able to get another TE, RB or another WR in that range.
It's not crazy to think, that another org will think the Giants are such a shitshow of an org with terrible culture and leadership, given a more functional org Toney might improve.
would have to be toxicity of his character, and what that would do in a locker room.
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
Had to read the latest epic BBI thread to its (then) end. Had games yesterday, today, late to this party.
My premise has always been that Toney is a Gettleman artifact, even in the face of some persuasive arguments to contrary.
Correction: at top of thread, it was bandied about by some, inaccurately, that it was after the Toney selection that Gettleman stomped past the War Room camera while JJ was high fiving others (I never witnessed the 2nd part, only the 1st):
That happened after the OJULARI selection, not Toney at 20.
Thus, it was not the Toney selection with which the GM was demonstrating his disagreement.
As Eric astutely observed, selection of Toney smacks of Eli 2018 redux. While it's been asserted, most concretely by Eric on Li (with supporting quote from JJ on draft day) that JJ was pushing for KT, he may well have been. But who is the guy in charge, who is the GM, who is guiding this godforsaken, rudderless ship in endless shoals?
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
And it must be Mara's fault. Okay, Torquemada. Keep looking for heretics in the woodwork.
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
would have to be toxicity of his character, and what that would do in a locker room.
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
They did say the communication was "constant" did they not? The premise that Schoen and Daboll are fools who have no idea who Toney is, IMV, foolish. They know exactly who he is. He works for them. Or doesn't....
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
RE: RE: The main thing against him to push a trade Ā
would have to be toxicity of his character, and what that would do in a locker room.
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
They did say the communication was "constant" did they not? The premise that Schoen and Daboll are fools who have no idea who Toney is, IMV, foolish. They know exactly who he is. He works for them. Or doesn't....
I'm sure Schoen knows all about Toney and frankly the rest of our players. GM's keep their knowledge current on most of the NFL players, not just their team. Plus you know that they must have researched him before last years draft.
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
I can spell, I can't type at least not very well eating pizza and drinking my beer. I am not, however, such a narcissist to think it's my place to re-invent the English Language for my own convenience, unlike Yung Joka.
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
I can spell, I can't type at least not very well eating pizza and drinking my beer. I am not, however, such a narcissist to think it's my place to re-invent the English Language for my own convenience, unlike Yung Joka.
Is he trying to re-invent it or he just canāt spell? We are really overthinking this, heās actually pretty tame compared to some others. Take a look at Robbie Andersons Twitter ššš
ā¦But who is the guy in charge, who is the GM, who is guiding this godforsaken, rudderless ship in endless shoals?
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
Good post. And I think it is worth adding that some pro-Giants mouthpieces (Dotino, for example) while defending Gettleman this past December were saying that the Baker pick was 100% on Shurmur, with him saying something like āwe donāt need choir boys, we need guys who can play.ā
Was Gettleman so easily bullied? It really seems like he let the patients run the asylum.
In 8 years Gettleman never traded down, not once until then Ā
I never said Schoen and Daboll are fools. Don't embellish things to further your argument.
I pondered how is it that Toney has burnt bridges so badly with a regime that has not had a chance to deal with him up close? Schoen and Daboll have undoubtedly had plenty of communication with that part of the Giants staff that are returning from last year. That staff would be, IMO, the main source of the info that Schoen/Daboll are using to determine Toney's character is too toxic to keep. I'm sure they've communicated with Toney to some extent, as well, but how much could it be to drive a narrative that it is worth extra pain to be rid of him? This is not an accounting, or a X/O, decision, but one based on character, and S/D simply haven't had enough exposure to determine the character is so bad they should give up on Toney at additional cost. The returning staff had to have reinforced/helped shape the decision.
RE: RE: Some corrections...and a hail mary by Rico Ā
ā¦But who is the guy in charge, who is the GM, who is guiding this godforsaken, rudderless ship in endless shoals?
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
Good post. And I think it is worth adding that some pro-Giants mouthpieces (Dotino, for example) while defending Gettleman this past December were saying that the Baker pick was 100% on Shurmur, with him saying something like āwe donāt need choir boys, we need guys who can play.ā
Was Gettleman so easily bullied? It really seems like he let the patients run the asylum.
I don't think so much it was easy, as much as a history of failure transformed him from bully to bullied. In any event, he was as de-balled, de-toothed and de-fanged as a Soho gerbil by the time last season started ,moreso as the year wore on.
I never said Schoen and Daboll are fools. Don't embellish things to further your argument.
I pondered how is it that Toney has burnt bridges so badly with a regime that has not had a chance to deal with him up close? Schoen and Daboll have undoubtedly had plenty of communication with that part of the Giants staff that are returning from last year. That staff would be, IMO, the main source of the info that Schoen/Daboll are using to determine Toney's character is too toxic to keep. I'm sure they've communicated with Toney to some extent, as well, but how much could it be to drive a narrative that it is worth extra pain to be rid of him? This is not an accounting, or a X/O, decision, but one based on character, and S/D simply haven't had enough exposure to determine the character is so bad they should give up on Toney at additional cost. The returning staff had to have reinforced/helped shape the decision.
Bottom line, you're saying they aren't in a position to make that judgement, and I say they are. You play down what they've said, or take them for liars when they say they are in constant communication with him. You give Toney the benefit of the doubt, but not the GM or HC, assuming reports of a trade possibility are true.
I'll own putting words in your mouth, but it does seem to be the belief you hold from your posts. Still.
But out of his own mouth, today, he don't give a fuck.
I get that, cognitvely, it is a brutal experience for ALL OF US to wrap our head around the fact that this is ANOTHER first round pick just pissed away, and at this point the pain is significant, even for the tough guys amongst us.
Hell, in a perfect world I'd have kept Booker and Bradberry.I see no way this man ever does anything to move this team forward. He doesn't care.
By his head coach, thatās even worse than making a bad pick. You have to hold the man accountable for his job even if we donāt know every detail for how it played out. DGs shitty talent is the main reason Judge had such a gutless offensive play calls but I still hold Judge accountable for the spineless calls.
I'm not one for endless back and forth. I've said my piece. You don't agree, or don't understand my point. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. I accept either.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
Heās going to be playing Wordle on his iPhone in the war room.
I love how you guys get worked up with Johnās little brother in the hen houseā¦
Ah, this again.
YOU are the one peddling conspiracy theories. He's the senior VP of player personnel, which means he's had a hand in all of the suckage since 2012. It's up to YOU to prove it's a figurehead do-nothing title. Which you have failed to do consistently, to the point that we question if you aren't a Mara yourself.
Good day.
Yeah Iām a Mara. And youāre a chucklehead.
Chris is an owner with an office that creates a handful of player evaluations each year that get loaded into a database that the GM may or may not even read. This is the worthless piece of your worries.
But Chris gets to be in the room and he speaks to his brother on whatever the topic of the day is. His advice probably isnāt helpful but it wouldnāt stop even if you stripped him of his title and took away his office. Because he is an owner.
The GM runs the show as to scouting and roster buildingā¦
Judge came to the Giants from the New England Patriots, an organization known for trading up, down and all around during the draft under coach Bill Belichick. Judge philosophically believes in trading down to collect more picks.
"There is more involvement [in the draft process] because I wasn't here ... two falls ago," Judge said. "The ability to talk about who is in the draft, who we are targeting, what kind of bodies ... the scheme and further understanding on both sides [of] what we are looking for and how we work together. This time through it was a lot more fluid."
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
And it must be Mara's fault. Okay, Torquemada. Keep looking for heretics in the woodwork.
Odd take. Just who is responsible then for hiring Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge?
But what if Schoen has a top five grade on Wilson - which isn't impossible - and thinks Wilson will very likely be there for the taking at #5 or #7.
So, looking ahead, Schoen wants to stay true to his board. And then this Toney-Gate situation breaks and falls into Schoen's lap as an opportunity to (1) unload Toney, a player he didn't draft and doesn't want to deal with, and (2) a chance to grab a better WR prospect...
Why would you reward this knucklehead by trading him Ā
to a team with a real QB? What does a 5th round pick do for us? Bring him back, let the other players get their hands on him and see what happens. If one playerās attitude is going to ruin the team, then they donāt deserve to be good anyway.
If this punk continues his childish behaviors, fucking have him return kick-offs until he blows his knee or get a concussion. Half joking, sort of. If he starts to fumble on purpose or fake injury, donāt play him and keep him away.
Last thing we need is to have him become a star elsewhere and we have a lousy 5th round pick to show for it.
RE: Why would you reward this knucklehead by trading him Ā
I'm a lot less concerned with "rewarding" Toney than with the future of the Giants. I don't know if he can a) get it together, and b) stay healthy, but obviously there's a lot of uncertainty about how valuable he can be. If they get an offer they feel is worth more than his likely value, they should take it. If Toney benefits from that, so be it. But it's not about his about his future elsewhere, it's about his future here vs. whatever value we can get in exchange for him.
I'm not one for endless back and forth. I've said my piece. You don't agree, or don't understand my point. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. I accept either.
I understand your point, I can see the merit in it, I just disagree, In that I think they have interacted enough( at least Daboll) to form an informed opinion, along with the other likely inputs you cite.
I like your posts, in general, I respect your opinion, in general and I shouldn't have put words in your mouth to make my point. I understood you well enough. My bad, I apologize.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
And it must be Mara's fault. Okay, Torquemada. Keep looking for heretics in the woodwork.
Odd take. Just who is responsible then for hiring Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge?
Not really sure what your point is here.
I suppose it is an odd take, considering I've posted several times this spring that in the end, this is all at Mara's feet, the same way anything that goes on inside any business is ultimately at the feet of he ( or she) who runs it. I also said if it gets turned around you have to give him the credit as well. You can't assign responsibility for all failures to the man without crediting him for any success they may have as well.
I took a run at you specifically because it is YOU who run this place, and I find the constant Mara carping you engage in annoying, unnecessary, and ultimately unseemly. I don't like it when you come off as unhinged. I don't think anyone else enjoys it either, but I suppose we all have a right to vent, especially the guy who made the site. it's not that I think you are wrong, it's that after awhile it's irritating.
My nature is such that generally I'm more likely to remain engaged and simply return an irritation as opposed to withdrawing. I don't think it's such an awful thing for you yourself to get tweaked from time to time, especially when you've lost your sense of decorum.
Turns out they were merely trying to move him... Ā
...to a house closer to the Stadium and were calling other teams for prices on moving companies (because so many of them are ripoffs). They quote you a price but once they have your stuff in their truck they start hitting you with all these extra fees and if you don't like it, they threaten to dump your stuff on the sidewalk and leave.
...to a house closer to the Stadium and were calling other teams for prices on moving companies (because so many of them are ripoffs). They quote you a price but once they have your stuff in their truck they start hitting you with all these extra fees and if you don't like it, they threaten to dump your stuff on the sidewalk and leave.
Is Peppers' house still on the market?
Here is what happens with Toney, from a logical perspective, I think? Ā
First, he is a first round pick with a cap hit for a team that has no money.
Second, the kid does have PHYSICAL talent but lacks the Mental and Emotional maturity to use it to its potential. So many young men have this issue where do I even begin.
Third, sure you listen to offers and a good team late 2nd round may jump in and make an offer on draft day for him HOPING to hit a home run by taking a risk. If a guy is on your board and a team calls you pull the trigger and eat the loss somehow (cap space that is....).
Fourth, most likely we hold onto Toney and hope the veterans and coaches rally around him and get him to "see the light" cause if Toney is a "problem" in camp he likely makes the roster as the 53rd man or is outright cut.
My dream scenario is Five: he wakes up and realizes his potential. At the end of the day only Toney knows what he is going to do and whether he wants it. But clearly if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter what team he gets on he is a lost cause.
How the hell did we pick him KNOWING he had issues? I think much lake CB Baker we took a shot at a talent and missed yet again in round one which is why we are picking fifth and will likely pick early next year too as the team goes throw the trials of a new system, new coaches, and being honest lack of top end talent.
We must get two studs this year in the first round, probowler types and my thinking right now is Gardner and Cross are picked. Cross has probowl pass protect potential in a passing league and you can't pass that up for a pure RT like Neal. Ekwonu goes #4 I think.
It's possible, I hope it comes to pass, but he'd have to change, starting with realizing his future isn't in music, then adopting a mindset & lifestyle of working for a living, hard, consistently, doing things he hasn't done, studying things he hasn't, and soaking up football knowledge like a sponge from others as well as study, film and otherwise.
Possible, hope it happens, but it's a lot to expect, seeing where he's at now. He'd have to have a different set of priorities. The concern isn't really whether he's able.
The concern is does he want to?
Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
RE: Here is what happens with Toney, from a logical perspective, I think? Ā
First, he is a first round pick with a cap hit for a team that has no money.
Second, the kid does have PHYSICAL talent but lacks the Mental and Emotional maturity to use it to its potential. So many young men have this issue where do I even begin.
Third, sure you listen to offers and a good team late 2nd round may jump in and make an offer on draft day for him HOPING to hit a home run by taking a risk. If a guy is on your board and a team calls you pull the trigger and eat the loss somehow (cap space that is....).
Fourth, most likely we hold onto Toney and hope the veterans and coaches rally around him and get him to "see the light" cause if Toney is a "problem" in camp he likely makes the roster as the 53rd man or is outright cut.
My dream scenario is Five: he wakes up and realizes his potential. At the end of the day only Toney knows what he is going to do and whether he wants it. But clearly if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter what team he gets on he is a lost cause.
How the hell did we pick him KNOWING he had issues? I think much lake CB Baker we took a shot at a talent and missed yet again in round one which is why we are picking fifth and will likely pick early next year too as the team goes throw the trials of a new system, new coaches, and being honest lack of top end talent.
We must get two studs this year in the first round, probowler types and my thinking right now is Gardner and Cross are picked. Cross has probowl pass protect potential in a passing league and you can't pass that up for a pure RT like Neal. Ekwonu goes #4 I think.
So you're saying they are drafting Cross to play LT and move Thomas to RT? Neal has experience at both OT positions. I don't think Neal will reach #5, but if he's there I would pick him.
Yes, the organization needs a lot of change. Some of it happened Ā
over the last few months despite many here not believing it would. And likely more coming in that front office after the draft and into the summer months. Maybe some more vets from the roster too if offers improve/materialize.
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
When have the Mets ever been irrelevant for decades?
RE: Yes, the organization needs a lot of change. Some of it happened Ā
over the last few months despite many here not believing it would. And likely more coming in that front office after the draft and into the summer months. Maybe some more vets from the roster too if offers improve/materialize.
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
As someone else pointed out above, you are literally arguing that the Senior Vice President of Player Personnel has no role in personnel matters... that saying so is some sort of conspiracy theory. And again, he is only one of three people that interviewed all of the candidates, but he's somehow irrelevant.
You can't make this stuff up.
RE: RE: Yes, the organization needs a lot of change. Some of it happened Ā
over the last few months despite many here not believing it would. And likely more coming in that front office after the draft and into the summer months. Maybe some more vets from the roster too if offers improve/materialize.
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
As someone else pointed out above, you are literally arguing that the Senior Vice President of Player Personnel has no role in personnel matters... that saying so is some sort of conspiracy theory. And again, he is only one of three people that interviewed all of the candidates, but he's somehow irrelevant.
You can't make this stuff up.
No, I said he creates a handful of player evaluations each year that go on their server. And he gets to sit in the interview and draft rooms.
I'll also remind you of the following Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
I'll also remind you of the following Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
I've never said he's the shadow GM...I've never used that phrase before... I am contending that he has a significant role in personnel. And I am arguing that he should not. I would imagine it made Reese, Gettleman, and now Schoen at least somewhat uncomfortable.
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
It's not an assumption, its the actual reported words versus guessing games.
And what's the alternative that's worse...Johnny Boy making bad decisions but all by himself?
If your argument is that John Mara is the bigger problem, then we are on the same page. The buck stops with him.
Of course John is a big problem, no question. But that doesn't mean seemingly qualified GMs, scouts, front office people all have to suck at their jobs too. John wasn't telling Gettleman to make all those bad decisions for years. He just doesn't know any better and presumes his GM and HC should...
I'll also remind you of the following Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
I've never said he's the shadow GM...I've never used that phrase before... I am contending that he has a significant role in personnel. And I am arguing that he should not. I would imagine it made Reese, Gettleman, and now Schoen at least somewhat uncomfortable.
There were plenty of guessing remarks made regarding what Chris' role is. I don't know if shadow GM were the exact words used by let's not mince things...that was your sentiment. I will let it go if you say no.
Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
And yes, I realize I'm a hypocrite talking to you about decorum, throwing F-bombs about as I do. Half the time I have none. It's not that I don't want to see, it's that I don't enjoy being constantly reminded. Despair and hopelessness are never good things, and bottom line, for me, the Mara's aren't going anywhere, and I don't really want them 100% uninvolved in the team, all their flaws you frequently cite notwithstanding. I do no disagree with your conclusions or observations, but constant negativity in one person can draw it out in another, and frankly, I'm generally fairly negative anyway. I don't mind a scrap myself, TBH, but by the time I'm done I frequently say more than I would have wished, in retrospect.
Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
He's right, I hate Pollyanna's. Further, I'll say that while never a DG supporter( I've always been ambivalent about him) I didn't really realize how godawful he was. I didn't like the Baker pick, I didn't like the Toney pick, I didn't really like the jones pick, and knew he was fucking us when he started trading shit days before the season started last year. Even so, I didn't realize how badly we are fucked till well after he left, and the hits keep coming, so yeah, there is a point to making a point.
As for the Mara's I can still hope they learn something and stick to their jobs. They still need to clear out scouting and petit, methinks. I'm thinking Chris is deballed, but Tim Mcdonell isn't going anywhere. I'm hoping he's more savvy than John.I don't care if abrams stays or goes.
mara HAS made the mistakes that have cost us a decade of good football to watch. but they aren't complicated, conspiratorial, nepotistic, or financial nefarious. he stuck with Jerry Reese too long, and chose poorly with McAdoo, consulting with EA, Gettleman, Shurmur, and Judge.
Those were all of his decisions, he failed at them, and they are more than enough to hang around his neck for accountability than the litany of others that quite frankly make little sense and often contradict themselves. Like Mara vetoed Parsons but was then somehow the guiding hand behind Toney - who had an actual arrest history.
the football decisions for the past decade are easily traced back to the football people in the positions of authority.
Jerry Reese (and marc ross) drafted and signed triangle athletes who lacked toughness and ignored trenches.
Gettleman drafted and signed hawg mollies but few panned out.
Shurmur and Bettcher brought in FA's with links to their old teams.
Judge and Graham and even Garrett did the same.
In Judge's 2 years 75% of the draft picks had played for coaches on his staff.
and guess what? So far the same is true with Schoen and Daboll - the majority of the players they've added are players they are familiar with. Either Mara finally got a decision right and they will do it better or we will be back in the same position in 2 years.
I'm personally a lot more troubled having to again rely on whether Mara got a rookie gm/coach right than whether or not he's dictating to them who they need to draft or sign.
If they are that weak in their own convictions, with their careers literally at stake, then their weakness is simply a symptom that he once again got their hirings wrong in the first place.
The nightmare scenario with Mara is off the table. I think the 2017 'search process' was a farce. I think his handling of McAdoo/Reese was incredibly odd. He stuck with DG way too long. His family members in personnel positions sucks. But he's not the abomination his biggest detractors make him out to be.
The nightmare scenario with Mara is off the table. I think the 2017 'search process' was a farce. I think his handling of McAdoo/Reese was incredibly odd. He stuck with DG way too long. His family members in personnel positions sucks. But he's not the abomination his biggest detractors make him out to be.
I'm not sure of that only because he has yet to prove he can hire someone good. the odds are strongly against any rookie gm/coach.
i think eric is right when he's said that it can always get worse. is it really so hard to fathom 2 years from now Daboll is out while the cowboys have somehow secured Payton or Harbough and look poised to be a SB contender for another 5-10 year window?
i just think some of the minutiae people get caught up in trying to put on his doorstep is silly and doesn't matter. either he hires the right people or not.
I think whether Schoen/Daboll work out is far more likely to be a result of luck than Mara being good at hiring. I don't think the NFL is good at hiring at all. The failure rate is so high.
I do think we had a good process. I wanted Dodds from the Colts or one of the Ravens guys. But the process seemed sound.
I'm not sure what you've been reading from me, but I've been pretty negative on EVERYONE associated with the Giants... not just Chris Mara. I've long said there are issues everywhere in the front office (GM, scouting director, scouts, etc.). I also not too long ago said too much was being made of Chris Mara's influence.
But I changed my tune on Chris based on new evidence.... the fact that his brother was considering him for GM.... the fact that he was only one of three people conducting all of the interviews (hell, Tisch wasn't even there in person for many of the interviews).
My contention for months has been is that Chris has more influence than I originally thought. He shouldn't be involved in the process at all. It's not a good look, but more importantly, it can't be ideal for any GM to have a VP of personnel who owns the team hanging over your shoulder. It just can't be.
I think whether Schoen/Daboll work out is far more likely to be a result of luck than Mara being good at hiring. I don't think the NFL is good at hiring at all. The failure rate is so high.
I do think we had a good process. I wanted Dodds from the Colts or one of the Ravens guys. But the process seemed sound.
the numbers agree - hiring in the NFL is very low proposition. CFB is in theory an easier place to hire than the NFL and even that is very low odds.
there's no major sport where hiring coaches is easy so i think i'm inclined to think almost all successful hires are more luck than skill.
i'd have gone big for Harbough since he was clearly listening and then let him hire whoever he wanted as GM. His run in SF was very Coughlinesque and while he hasn't been a grandslam at UM he made them relevant again. say what you want about him but he wins and this org is so far from winning i think that should have been the #1 priority. head coaches make 2-3x what GMs make, so i think there's actually an argument that the entire paradigm of a GM hiring a HC is a bit backwards if there's an experienced HC available.
i like what schoen and daboll have done so far but winning in the nfl requires more than logical personnel decisions - and that's the lesson most rookie coaches don't seem to get until it's too late.
I'm not sure what you've been reading from me, but I've been pretty negative on EVERYONE associated with the Giants... not just Chris Mara. I've long said there are issues everywhere in the front office (GM, scouting director, scouts, etc.). I also not too long ago said too much was being made of Chris Mara's influence.
But I changed my tune on Chris based on new evidence.... the fact that his brother was considering him for GM.... the fact that he was only one of three people conducting all of the interviews (hell, Tisch wasn't even there in person for many of the interviews).
My contention for months has been is that Chris has more influence than I originally thought. He shouldn't be involved in the process at all. It's not a good look, but more importantly, it can't be ideal for any GM to have a VP of personnel who owns the team hanging over your shoulder. It just can't be.
You're going round and round and it's not getting you anywhere. John's the CEO, Chris takes some SVP Player Personnel title because he wants to be known as a player evaluator and give an impression he is relevant. John sounds like he wants his brother's input on things and that is going to happen whether he is in the building or not. So you can sit and bitch about that all day long (as you have been) but it's not changing as they are owners.
The change that can make a big difference is if somehow these owners finally found somebody decent with their new GM and HC. Anybody of value reports up and into the GM as has been reported so let Schoen make his front office changes to scouting directors, scouts, etc. after the draft and over this next year and put his mark throughout the organization. Going round and round about the Mara brothers is pointless anyway because if Schoen is a strong evaluator of talent and can find a QB at some point the team will start becoming competitive again. And the Mara stuff will fall in line and/or become irrelevant to the fans.
has made Mara listen to far too many people and as the streak continued it caused increased chaos. The blueprint has been pretty simple for 40 years. Win the lines, impact D players and a balanced offense. When they have that they win and 4 times they won the whole thing. The losing started when they lost what they always strived to be imv. I have not seem many SB winners out scheme basic football staples.
Hoping JS sets the franchise on a path back to restoring what has been missing for a decade.
has made Mara listen to far too many people and as the streak continued it caused increased chaos. The blueprint has been pretty simple for 40 years. Win the lines, impact D players and a balanced offense. When they have that they win and 4 times they won the whole thing. The losing started when they lost what they always strived to be imv. I have not seem many SB winners out scheme basic football staples.
Hoping JS sets the franchise on a path back to restoring what has been missing for a decade.
I wouldn't say the 2011 championship team had a balanced offense. Actually we were dead last in rushing. We had a great passing attack and a clutch QB. The Oline was serviceable.
We did have impact players on defense. Especially in the playoffs.
Correct, it was tough sledding on the ground but they did try to get the rushing attempts in. Also, Jacobs was a very physical pass protector and AB was pretty good as well. You also rightly acknowledged how the D stepped up big time in the playoffs.
It was a unique year. A outstanding WR group and once that fell apart it really exposed the missing physical element on offense and then the OL further deteriorated and the D aged out other than JPP.
Toneyās person driver (and to many Giants players) just went off Ā
and credit where it's do they are completely dead on. post SB 46/2011 the organization got blinded by success and buried by 2 things:
1. they moved away from investing in the trenches
2. the rules changed away from coughlin's strengths to a more pass friendly league and they failed to adjust properly
I think those are 2 very key observations to almost every failure from 2011-2017. Letting the OL degrade, the David Wilson pick, letting Linval Joseph walk, ben 'modern offense' mcadoo, evan engram, and on and on.
in my opinion i dont see either of those 2 things having much to do with mara's influence on the franchise in a different way than he influenced it from 2005-2011. he mostly entrusted the same people and just wasn't strong enough to see how far off-course they'd steered. I personally don't give him an abundance of credit for the success from 2005-2011 as he basically inherited coughlin/reese. but i do find it a little hypocritical to not count those years on one hand but insist he was the reason those guys failed on the other.
RE: go terps made these 2 points in this thread or another recently Ā
and credit where it's do they are completely dead on. post SB 46/2011 the organization got blinded by success and buried by 2 things:
1. they moved away from investing in the trenches
2. the rules changed away from coughlin's strengths to a more pass friendly league and they failed to adjust properly
I think those are 2 very key observations to almost every failure from 2011-2017. Letting the OL degrade, the David Wilson pick, letting Linval Joseph walk, ben 'modern offense' mcadoo, evan engram, and on and on.
in my opinion i dont see either of those 2 things having much to do with mara's influence on the franchise in a different way than he influenced it from 2005-2011. he mostly entrusted the same people and just wasn't strong enough to see how far off-course they'd steered. I personally don't give him an abundance of credit for the success from 2005-2011 as he basically inherited coughlin/reese. but i do find it a little hypocritical to not count those years on one hand but insist he was the reason those guys failed on the other.
The DL absolutely but the OL decline was before 2011 it was not great at all that year and a far cry from 2007. itās a miracle Eli survived and thrived but it caught up to him.
Second point is very valid, the Giants antiquated owners and front office were completely lost and still are. Letās hope that just changed
Yep
How reliable is Pat Leonard?
I am absolutely fine trading him. Can they get a day two or two day three picks for him?
ā
@ZackBlatt
Joka Fridays
Heās not all in. Ship him out.
Pat Leonard
ā
@PLeonardNYDN
šØBREAKING: Giants are looking to trade WR Kadarius Toney, making calls on what they can get for their 2021 1st round pick
I mean if we are saving a negative number when we have little itās kind of concerning
Bingo
šššIt was a joke at the time now he really may finish his career here with no TDs ššš
Quote:
To wake his ass up
Bingo
Based on the last 3 years what gives you guys the impression he needs to āwake upāāas opposed to he just doesnāt care about football? You canāt force someone to enjoy something they donāt. I mean he canāt even fake it cmon
Quote:
To wake his ass up
Bingo
Normally, I'd agree. But not after listening to Schoen and Daboll on the Papa/Banks interview.
This looks just as bad for the new regime as it does for Toney.
3 more years of suckitude coming up.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
explain to me how this twerp buys into the program?
Even Golladay implied it was a mistake not to come in
The Giants have been buying garbage with first round picks for years. Cut bait on all of it.
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
That's my recollection. I also have a vague recollection that it was Shurmur who wanted Baker.
If they really wanted to move Toney they would shut up and not make a move until after he made some circus plays in the early portion of the season.
They wouldn't hurt his value by telegraphing that they want to move on from him while his value is already at a low-point due to injury.
Judge pick and it was speculated Dave wanted a OL but donāt know if it was the pick that went to the Vikings.
Hopefully BD gets him on board when things go mandatory. Letās see how camp goes to start.
Thanks for nothing, Gettleman.
Unless part of larger deal, a fifth would be larceny IMO.
I see -$3M I just donāt see how this is possible
He doesn't care and he never did. They can't take his signing bonus away. He got paid.
If they really wanted to move Toney they would shut up and not make a move until after he made some circus plays in the early portion of the season.
They wouldn't hurt his value by telegraphing that they want to move on from him while his value is already at a low-point due to injury.
This assumes that the marginal hypothetical increase in compensation they get by waiting is more valuable in management's opinion than the benefit of getting a head case and a malcontent out of the program.
This has addition by subtraction all over it IMO. Eat your losses and move on.
And seriously, who among us didn't see this happening the night he was picked? Just a horrible fit organization and personality/commitment-wise.
Yep, with the same affinity for following the law.
Just a thought.
Heās not all in. Ship him out.
Its not fair to judge players on this and/or take this kind of info on a message board at 100%. However, this is why the āif he can stay healthyā stuff seemed a little optimistic to me. The guy missed time with like 12 different injuries and seemingly always had an excuse not to play/practice for mandatory while blowing off voluntary stuff. Something felt off for sure there.
Yeah Iāll wait to we hear something from a better source than her before I get too wound up about it
Hill likes football and produces though
Besides, you can't sell what you don't have.
If Dabs has determined that KT needs to go, float it, see what the value is, and cut the cord.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
Finish round 1 with OT, CB and Edge
Report: Giants trying to trade Kadarius Toney - ( New Window )
Normally, I'd agree. But not after listening to Schoen and Daboll on the Papa/Banks interview.
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what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
That would be pretty cool.
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Iām a minor asshat here but I have it on good word the Giants felt he could play down the stretch last year and he mailed it in.
Heās not all in. Ship him out.
Its not fair to judge players on this and/or take this kind of info on a message board at 100%. However, this is why the āif he can stay healthyā stuff seemed a little optimistic to me. The guy missed time with like 12 different injuries and seemingly always had an excuse not to play/practice for mandatory while blowing off voluntary stuff. Something felt off for sure there.
He did this in college, his only full year was the one he declared. The cleats the āinjuriesā etc . We all knew he was faking
Also via Pat Leonard.
So they want to trade him yet here are a million reasons why you shouldnāt trade for him. Got it
the Giants are talking to Kansas City about James Bradberry, and the Giants are insisting on a 4th Rounder and K.C. is standing firm on a 5th Rounder. The Marvelous Kadarius can break the log jam. Joe Schoen tells K.C. he'll throw in Kadarius thus prodding K.C. to relent and give us their 4th for Bradberry.
In any event, the sooner the Giants get rid of Kadarius Toney the better.
Just because they possibly inquired about trading him doesnāt mean they will. And the value still might be there with 3 years + option remaining. It craters if he underwhelms this year and you eat up another year of that rookie deal. Worst case with shopping is that you donāt get appropriate value in a trade offer, so you decline them but word gets out and you successfully sent a message to Toney.
Can't make it up.
As far as the Giants "leaking" the info, I think that it's far more likely that the leak came from a team that the Giants contacted.
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what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
The plot thickens!
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In comment 15675342 jeff57 said:
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
That's my recollection. I also have a vague recollection that it was Shurmur who wanted Baker.
Yes, Gettleman didnāt make a draft pick all the time he was here.
As far as the Giants "leaking" the info, I think that it's far more likely that the leak came from a team that the Giants contacted.
Or Toney agent leaked it to drum up more interest because he wants to get traded.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
Can't make it up.
And Josh Allen dropped the N word all over his Twitter feed. Bottom line is one likes football and one doesnāt . And Allen being a red flag got conveniently buried because he was just āyoung and immature.ā PFFT
Mara should be horrified after taking pictures with the man that set his franchise back 5-10 years.
Stunning.
Worse... remember there was a media report last week that there are executives in the building who still think it was best not to draft Parsons.
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and he was allegedly off the board, but we had "multiple coaches" vouch for Toney.
Stunning.
Worse... remember there was a media report last week that there are executives in the building who still think it was best not to draft Parsons.
i mean i could perhaps understand still thinking the trade down was good value, #11 for #7 + #20 on it's face is good value. but passing on Parsons could haunt us for decades. there could be edge rushers picked #1-4 this year and each of their teams would sign today to get 75% of the rookie year Parsons just turned in.
Yep which is why I rarely believe character concerns around draft time but it was just a rumor with Toney it was the injuries and rap albums plastered everywhere and almost nothing about football ever
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and he was allegedly off the board, but we had "multiple coaches" vouch for Toney.
Stunning.
Worse... remember there was a media report last week that there are executives in the building who still think it was best not to draft Parsons.
It's a little early to call it a mistake. There's been plenty of players with character question marks that seemed to be a non issue until manifesting a year or two into their careers ie Reuben Foster, Rolando McClain etc.
Has this been seconded by any other media sources?
He actually retweets Jordan Schultz now.
I mean itās already legendary and the story is just beginning, Iām going to embrace it lol
There's going to be a day in the future when all the Gettleman era mistakes are gone. That's going to be a good day.
the Giants are talking to Kansas City about James Bradberry, and the Giants are insisting on a 4th Rounder and K.C. is standing firm on a 5th Rounder. The Marvelous Kadarius can break the log jam. Joe Schoen tells K.C. he'll throw in Kadarius thus prodding K.C. to relent and give us their 4th for Bradberry.
In any event, the sooner the Giants get rid of Kadarius Toney the better.
I would package both to KC for #29 or #30. Despite the bizarre injuries and attitude, Toney still has some traits that would go a way to replacing Hill on that offense.
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I hope theyāre actually trying to get a day 1 or 2 pick in return as opposed to just dumping him. That would be fucking stupid.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
Shhh itās a secret the trade offers are flying in. So far weāre up to A Big Gulp and Doritosā¦the sweet chili ones!!!ā
There's going to be a day in the future when all the Gettleman era mistakes are gone. That's going to be a good day.
i wish someone could adjust your slider to like 10% less hyperbole.
there aren't a lot of rookies who are out there underdressing Trevon Diggs on their way to 200 yards.
i'd trade toney for a day 2 pick but anything short of that id sooner suspend him until infinity then give him away for nothing. he is a talented player at a premium position with 4 years of control.
Mark andrews is probably the best #89 so i'd send him to the ravens and just let him stew.
There's going to be a day in the future when all the Gettleman era mistakes are gone. That's going to be a good day.
This was a Judge mistake
I personally think heās an inside straight draw but Iām sure some team will think theyāve got the touch to get lucky.
Jordan Raanan
ā
@JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl
no issue trading him if they can get back a top 60 pick. i'd happily swap him for a metchie or dotson.
Jordan Raanan
ā
@JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
This makes it sound less desperate, good spin
Jordan Raanan
ā
@JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl https://twitter.com
I mean no one on our shitty roster should be deemed "unavailable". But this is confirmation that Schoen seems to be open to everything and anything.
Smart, Tough, Dependable
Toney doesn't fit into any one of those categories....
when someone asks me why I wanted to purge the entire organization I wasn't kidding....
isn't this in a way a confirmation they arent? to go terps point, he had a song titled codeine dreaming and at UF he had the weapons charges even if they got dropped. even in the worst versions of the mara boogeyman, does toney at all fit the profile of a guy they would pound the table for?
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Jordan Raanan @JordanRaanan
Spoke to an executive who said earlier today he heard Kadarius Toney was available. As new GM Joe Schoen has done since he took over, exploring all options. #giants #nfl
no issue trading him if they can get back a top 60 pick. i'd happily swap him for a metchie or dotson.
They can't get a Top 60 for Marvelous Kadarius. 160 is much closer to the mark.
This is getting absurd.
(And I'm the guy who says it can always get worse).
The Giants aren't dealing from a poisition of strehgth. In a draft that has a number of talented WRs, the Giants MAY be able to get a 3. They sure as hell aren't getting a 2nd RD pick plus two 4s.
+1. What a fiasco this franchise has become. It's disgraceful.
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In comment 15675382 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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I hope theyāre actually trying to get a day 1 or 2 pick in return as opposed to just dumping him. That would be fucking stupid.
No team IMO would come close to offering a Day One or Day Two pick for Kadarius Toney.
I think the Giants use Kadarius Toney as a throw-in when they trade James Bradberry. Maybe Toney is the sweetener that gets a team to give us a 4th instead of a 5th for Bradberry.
But my guess is Joe Schoen wants to unload K.D. ASAP.
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
Only thing stupid is the Giants keeping this guy around for one more day than necessary. He's a bust. He doesn't want to be here.
Keeping in mind Maras interview when he blurted out that he signs off on the draft picks as long as they don't have character concerns, it gets even worse
This is getting absurd.
(And I'm the guy who says it can always get worse).
i mean, it was even worse before the last 4 years. so yes it could get worse.
the good news is the bills in the beane era were very good.
Dan Duggan
ā
@DDuggan21
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
Dan Duggan
ā
@DDuggan21
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
Selling low? Hell. Joe Schoen just hopes he can sell. Period.
There's going to be a day in the future when all the Gettleman era mistakes are gone. That's going to be a good day.
Who cut the cheese?
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This guy posted a song to YouTube called "Codeine Dreamin'" 6 months before they drafted him.
Can't make it up.
And Josh Allen dropped the N word all over his Twitter feed. Bottom line is one likes football and one doesnāt . And Allen being a red flag got conveniently buried because he was just āyoung and immature.ā PFFT
Wasnāt Josh Allen 12?
Yeah, I'm sure you're in the loop at this point.
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āIf you believe everything on the Internet you are gullibleā
Yeah, I'm sure you're in the loop at this point.
Um what? Itās literally on his pageā¦
Giving Toney away to elevate a 5th round pick to a 4th round pick can be accurately described as āfucking stupidā.
Only thing stupid is the Giants keeping this guy around for one more day than necessary. He's a bust. He doesn't want to be here.
Heās a bust? Thatās silly. A knucklehead? Sure. A moron? Possibly. Whether he wants to be here or not has nothing to do with just giving him away. He has talent and his trade value should be commensurate with that talent.
Also, if this gets executed before next Thursday, I think Wilson is definitely in play at 5 or 7.
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In comment 15675503 TDTONEY said:
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āIf you believe everything on the Internet you are gullibleā
Yeah, I'm sure you're in the loop at this point.
Um what? Itās literally on his pageā¦
I'm saying the Giants wouldn't be providing updates on his status if they were trying to dump him.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
If he's toxic, they don't want him in the locker room.
I wonder how the owners feel about the DG regime? They obviously look pretty dumb for hiring him and keeping him. He should have been fired during the season.
a new regime doesn't want that headache...that want a clean slate and a fresh locker room without this noise hanging over the teams head.
Yes please
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In comment 15675511 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15675503 TDTONEY said:
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āIf you believe everything on the Internet you are gullibleā
Yeah, I'm sure you're in the loop at this point.
Um what? Itās literally on his pageā¦
I'm saying the Giants wouldn't be providing updates on his status if they were trying to dump him.
Oh you said me lol I was confused. I mean maybe he is. Leonard said we are actively shopping Ranaan toned that down and made it seem like āopen ad
Alwaysā. As to how much of each š¤·āāļø
Dan Duggan
ā
@DDuggan21
Canāt report anything definitively on trade talks, but surveying sources inside the organization and around the league and the general reaction is, āNo surprise.ā
Toney had red flags during the draft process, had a rocky rookie season and has skipped voluntary workouts with the new staff.
A new broom sweeps clean, and Schoen and Daboll arenāt the ones who used a first-round pick on Toney.
If the Giants are shopping Toney, it would seem like thereās no turning back. So what could they get? One source predicted a mid-round pick. Theyād obviously be selling low.
I'd take a fourth or a high fifth. Get him gone.
Link - ( New Window )
Really cool.
Who's next?
To rid him from the team at this point, Iād even gladly trade him within the Division.
Really cool.
Who's next?
Engram blew chunks, but at least he showed up.
There are a bunch of red flags with Toney, but I don't think you ship him out after one season, with all his potential, for anything less than a fantastic offer.
Really cool.
Who's next?
They are not even a little bit comparable
Really cool.
Who's next?
Not sure what you mean by that but, seems like a comment on the posters here.
I see a WR, a player who:
Has had one weird thing after another follow him, multiple issues with injuries and illness, complaints about usage even though he wasn't available often and in his best game he gets thrown out for being very stupid ..
Hard to see why anyone would be expected to support the guy .
yup
It doesnāt make sense from a cap perspective unless heās a genuine cancer right now but heās not even here so how could he be lol
What are you doing tonight Toney? Just chillin'?
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
Just to fuck over his tattoo.
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
DG has to be the worst GM we ever had.
Think about it. Because we drafted Toney we have to cut him and that makes our already terrible cap situation even worse!
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In comment 15675342 jeff57 said:
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
What are you doing tonight Toney? Just chillin'?
I didnāt see that, where did Toney push back?
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Toney doesn't have time to come learn the playbook, but within minutes of an internet rumor of him being shopped, he feels obligated to push back against it?
What are you doing tonight Toney? Just chillin'?
I didnāt see that, where did Toney push back?
Posted above on his Instagram account.
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Itās daunting..clean out all the FO holdovers from the previous regime, dump the scouts, and keep John away (easier said than done)
Good luck.
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Toney is the new Engram.
Really cool.
Who's next?
Engram blew chunks, but at least he showed up.
Obviously showing up didn't help Engram with the "Let's lynch the landlord crowd" because he kept dropping the world's greatest QB Daniel Jones' passes.
Hate Gettleman the worst GM in the universe but defending Jones he's my Quarterback crowd is just as absurd.
It's VOLUNTARY PRACTICE. He's not the first and not the last player not to attend voluntary practice.
I say the shit show will continue for 3 more years.
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In comment 15675345 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 15675342 jeff57 said:
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
The Titanic is sinking and joe is still trying to steer the ship from the bridge.
Schoen can clean up the mess. And he and Daboll will get the time they need to do so. But 2022 will likely be another dark season for Giants fans.
His two best games were against a pair of top 4 pass defenses according to footballoutsiders.com. He had a monster game against their second ranked pass defense. Based on the submoronic BBI rule of good performances only mattering against quality opponents, then Iād say itās too early to say heās not a good player. His overall production was poor, but heās quite talented. To say otherwise is just asinine.
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In comment 15675563 giantstock said:
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In comment 15675345 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 15675342 jeff57 said:
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The gift that keep on giving.
Was it really him? Personally, I think this was a Judge pick. Wasn't it this pick where there was video inside the Giants war room and Gettleman looked annoyed while Judge was shaking hands with others? Add in the Deandre Baker pick and all the backlash from that and it just doesn't pass the smell test that this was a Gettleman pick imo.
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
I just did. They have to agree or there is a protocol Mara follows with them and others and Mara makes the call
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Still think Schoen should have had a full clearance sale at 125 Giants Way. The majority of the base would have understood selling off DJ, Barkley, LW, Bradberry, etc. Take the most cap pain possible in 2022.
Here in the real world Toney is another in a long line of disasters.
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NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Still think Schoen should have had a full clearance sale at 125 Giants Way. The majority of the base would have understood selling off DJ, Barkley, LW, Bradberry, etc. Take the most cap pain possible in 2022.
Absolutely. I'd rather enter the 2022 season with 53 UDFAs than any Gettleman players. Each player that goes now is a step closer to relevance.
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
This is such a stupid tweet. The Gettleman era ended 4 months ago, and Schoen hasnāt even had his first draft yet. People were expecting the mess to be cleaned up by late April?
But giving him away doesnāt seem like an intelligent way to run a multi-billion dollar franchise. 99% of BBI is okay with trading him, myself included. Itās the ārun him out of town regardless of returnā thing that makes no sense to me.
Missed draft picks in the last three years are going to haunt the current regime.
The Giants are dumping ANOTHER 1st round pick.
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It's not hyperbole. 39 catches at 10.8 per catch and 0 TDs. That is not a good player.
His two best games were against a pair of top 4 pass defenses according to footballoutsiders.com. He had a monster game against their second ranked pass defense. Based on the submoronic BBI rule of good performances only mattering against quality opponents, then Iād say itās too early to say heās not a good player. His overall production was poor, but heās quite talented. To say otherwise is just asinine.
you forgot bbi rules governing that stats only matter in wins - which the NO game actually was. the guy is an injury risk and a knucklehead, but he's talented.
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
What does this even mean? That Schoen is destined to fail? That he should just quit right now?
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In comment 15675571 TDTONEY said:
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Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
They have to agree per Mara. Judge and his 3 hires all scored him in high school. 100% was pushed by Judge
But you didn't answer my question:
Who has more power for a 1st round 1st pick of the 1st round? DG or JJ?
I just did. They have to agree or there is a protocol Mara follows with them and others and Mara makes the call
You're telling me JJ and other scouts overrode what DG wanted to do in which DG had no one else backing him for his potential choice?
You have the link for that? I am not arguing -- but where are you coming up with this information? You mention a Press Conference but what quotes were made that you found this out?
And if those scouts were the same ones over the last several years following blundering pick after blundering pick I hope they are all gone too- but where are you getting this info? It can't be just because your guessing.
Again ---I am not arguing.
Eric, Call me Cautiously Overoptimistic.
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NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
What does this even mean? That Schoen is destined to fail? That he should just quit right now?
It means that if Schoen and Daboll can't turn around this mess in a few years, fans will be calling for their heads too. Some holes are very difficult to get out of. The Giants have a terrible roster and can ill-afford to have more busts.
Clean house.
Missed draft picks in the last three years are going to haunt the current regime.
The Giants are dumping ANOTHER 1st round pick.
It puts significantly more pressure on the front office and coaching staff to not only hit on their 1st round picks but also find more talent on day 3 and among the UDFAās.
You think heās reading bbi and this thread?
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NFL Insider
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
This is such a stupid tweet. The Gettleman era ended 4 months ago, and Schoen hasnāt even had his first draft yet. People were expecting the mess to be cleaned up by late April?
Tend to agree provided Mara truly gives this staff enough time right the ship. If we're still in the two year GM/coach cycle, then we can say uh oh. But I really don't see a Toney trade as the nail in Schoen's coffin barely 100 days into the job.
Him and that coach from last time are having a good time right now laughing back and forthā¦š¤”parade is back
In comment 15675569 Eric from BBI said:
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
Thomas can stay
Link - ( New Window )
He might need to go somewhere else by then.
A few weeks back Leonard also said he wasnāt being moved lol
Until I see someone throw in that $3m it doesnāt make sense
From a players perspective...it would be a blessing to get traded away from arguably the worst team in the NFL. One with a dim future and a below average quarterback
Toney comes out on top if he's traded
@RVacchianoSNY
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6m
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from
@PLeonardNYDN
.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now ...
That way we don't have to worry about him learning the playbook.
Well done.
Well done.
In all fairness this years 7th pick too
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
Thereās a very good chance 4 more on this shitty list will be gone by 2023. Thatās borderline criminal.
Neal/Ekwonu at 5 and Garrett Wilson at 7? Would not be shocked
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And makes big plays to lead the Giants to victory in game one, we should compare that post game thread with this oneā¦.. just saying
Here in the real world Toney is another in a long line of disasters.
You jump to conclusions:
My pt. was not to defend him, I m not. My point, should my scenario play out, which it could even in your ārealā world, was to point out the fickleness of fans,
Do you really believe there is no chance he remains on the roster?
2. I think toney is wildly talented. But if heās not interested in what this HC and GM are trying to build, itās time to go
ā
@ZackBlatt
As others (starting with Pat) have said, I heard tonight (from multiple people) of a belief around the league that Kadarius Toney is legitimately available.
Whether that means heāll actually get tradedā¦ š¤·š»āāļø
ā
@RVacchianoSNY
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from @PLeonardNYDN.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now
It's worth noting that Giants GM Joe Schoen said, back at the combine, that "I don't think Kadarius is a tradable piece." He was the only player he labelled untouchable.
It would be an extraordinary (though hardly unprecedented) turnaround to trade him 7 weeks later ...
Schoen also wouldnāt be selling high. Toney is young, talented and affordable. But the fact theyād be willing to dump him speaks volumes. One person I spoke to thought maybe the Giants could get a 3rd rounder for him. Most thought it would be less. ...
So the bottom line is this: I don't know if they're trying to trade him or just trying to gauge his value. But no one is ever really safe when a new GM and coach take over an organization. They have no allegiance to players picked by the previous regime.
@RVacchianoSNY
Ā·
6m
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from
@PLeonardNYDN
.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now ...
Listening is actually better because it means that teams are calling the Giants and there may be multiple offers.
Schoen can clean up the mess. And he and Daboll will get the time they need to do so. But 2022 will likely be another dark season for Giants fans.
Did he ever have a site visit? Did anyone talk to him at the combine ( if he showed up) and whomever did speak to him and still advocated for him to be the 1st pick should be fired. What were his wonderlic scores? What a Jokahā
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if you are still online, you may want to get up to New Jersey next week.
You think heās reading bbi and this thread?
A lot of players read BBI.
Quote:
In comment 15675614 Eric from BBI said:
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if you are still online, you may want to get up to New Jersey next week.
You think heās reading bbi and this thread?
A lot of players read BBI.
I wonder if Barkley was at least partially referring to BBI when he said he was "tired of the BS" that has been said about him.
ā
@RVacchianoSNY
I don't have much to add to the report that the Giants are actively trying to trade Kadarius Toney, from @PLeonardNYDN.
I talked to several NFL sources tonight who heard Toney is available. One said it sounded like the Giants were "more listening than shopping" for now
It's worth noting that Giants GM Joe Schoen said, back at the combine, that "I don't think Kadarius is a tradable piece." He was the only player he labelled untouchable.
It would be an extraordinary (though hardly unprecedented) turnaround to trade him 7 weeks later ...
Schoen also wouldnāt be selling high. Toney is young, talented and affordable. But the fact theyād be willing to dump him speaks volumes. One person I spoke to thought maybe the Giants could get a 3rd rounder for him. Most thought it would be less. ...
So the bottom line is this: I don't know if they're trying to trade him or just trying to gauge his value. But no one is ever really safe when a new GM and coach take over an organization. They have no allegiance to players picked by the previous regime.
Especially when the previous regime was beyond atrocious.
ā
@rydunleavy
Everyone obsesses over #Giants picking RB at No. 2. He's still their best player.
Bypassing Micah Parsons (red flags) and Rashawn Slater to trade down, draft a player who came w/ red flags & finds every way not to practice & then trading him for a mid-rounder would be next level
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
And Thomas (the one it appears he got right) was a #4 overall pick in a draft with 4 franchise OTs, meaning Gettleman was mathematically incapable of screwing up the pick.
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So in one year the Giants turned a first rounder into a day 2 or 3 pick.
Well done.
In all fairness this years 7th pick too
So we basically punted on last year's first round entirely.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
Yes, except they simply may not want his presence on the team, infecting the locker room.
Time to put that BS to bed.
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Judging by this thread, Iām in the extreme minority but this feels like a massive mistake.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
Yes, except they simply may not want his presence on the team, infecting the locker room.
Thereās about 5-10 guys tops in this locker room that will be here in 2 years.
I think they clearly put this out there mostly to get his attention
Capitalizing on the overreactions of the mob.
Missed draft picks in the last three years are going to haunt the current regime.
The Giants are dumping ANOTHER 1st round pick.
Not arguing with you, but the tweet itself is absurd
The DG mess is āstillā haunting the Giants? Did anyone expect it to be cleaned up in 4 months?
Capitalizing on the overreactions of the mob.
Except most of the other beat reporters have confirmed that the Giants are either listening to offers or making calls.
We arenāt doing shit this year so we can afford to see if the lightbulb goes on and we would be selling off a first round pick for pennies on the dollar a year into his career.
Even if itās a 10% chance he wakes up and stops being a fucking dolt, thatās worth more than giving up a first round talent for nothing right now IMO.
He's not a first round talent anymore. He's just a guy on the roster who isn't interested in joining the program.
I'm not sure if the cap implications of trading him, so we might be stuck with him through 2022, but unless the light bulb comes on, I'd get rid of him for 2023.
And looking through the posts, I'd absolutely rather have Evan Engram than Toney right now. At least Engram tried.
But they are still paying the price and will be for a couple of years. If Toney really is gone, that's another huge wasted move. We could have Parsons or Slater on the team right now.
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He's not a good reporter, but there's a reason this dude is in the position he's in.
Capitalizing on the overreactions of the mob.
Except most of the other beat reporters have confirmed that the Giants are either listening to offers or making calls.
Pats headline was ātrying to trade and making callsā
Based on his track record I am guessing Schoen took a lot more than made
Quote:
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Dexter Lawrence
Deandre Baker (released)
Andrew Thomas
Kadarius Toney
What a disaster.
And Thomas (the one it appears he got right) was a #4 overall pick in a draft with 4 franchise OTs, meaning Gettleman was mathematically incapable of screwing up the pick.
I'm not so sure many would agree with that right about now had he chosen one particular one of those four...
That's where we are at right now.
@AngryNFLInsider
Ā·
1h
Dave Gettleman mess is still haunting the #Giants till this very day. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is the mess too big for Joe Schoen to clean up? #TogetherBlue #NFL
Oh brotherā¦
But the story said it was based on last years behavior. Regardless of who initiates the phone call it can be just convenient timing itās during voluntary sessions.
Or hey they fell in love with a WR they expected to take at 5ā¦poof trade him
You can spin it to make him not showing up irrelevant. Irrelevant is what Leonard needs to become
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
That's where we are at right now.
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
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the Giants roster without Toney and with Parsons.
That's where we are at right now.
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
Fair point about #7, but then make it Kwity Paye.
Why would you not want to jump right in and get up to speed? Likely because he doesnāt care about football.
Shepard is rehabbing from a torn achilles and likely won't be ready by the start of the season. Golladay and Slayton did nothing last year. Everyone else is just a body.
The Giants probably like several day three WRs, but need to get a few more picks to be able to draft at least one, especially given all their other needs.
Schoen said that KT was an "untradeable commodity" before KT decided not to show up to voluntary workouts, which means he doesn't even have the playbook.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Quote:
In comment 15675716 Eric from BBI said:
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the Giants roster without Toney and with Parsons.
That's where we are at right now.
I always felt the bigger part of that trade was the next year 1st from the bears which ended up being 7. If Schoen nails that pick I still say the trade was worth it. The toney pick never made sense though.
Especially if they were passing on Parsons because of off the field concerns...Toney had even more!
Fair point about #7, but then make it Kwity Paye.
I wanted Paye. I think most people here were stunned he wasn't the pick. The Colts who picked next IIRC certainly were. I also would have been fine with Darrisaw.
But they are still paying the price and will be for a couple of years. If Toney really is gone, that's another huge wasted move. We could have Parsons or Slater on the team right now.
Agreed Eric. The fatal flaw with the mess of a regime before this one was the minute DG walked in and thought tape and stringing an offensive line together, drafting a RB at 2, rolling with Eli (with a makeshift offensive line) and drafting a crapload of defensive backs would make this team a contender. DG didnāt do this in a vacuum, Maraās the one signing the paychecks.
Iām just glad he went outside of the āfamilyā with the Schoen hire.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Yea just looked at the respect Gettleman got when he traded Odell. . .
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice.
Toney - ( New Window )
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And couldn't care less what we get in return. The respect that Schoen and Daboll will earn for doing so will be infinitely more valuable than any one player, draft pick or additional cap space.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Yea just looked at the respect Gettleman got when he traded Odell. . .
OBJ winning a Super Bowl was destiny. At least we got Peppers and Lawrence right ? Nice trade Daveš¤”
Quote:
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
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In comment 15675725 Eric from BBI said:
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All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
Youād have to prove thatās why
Quote:
In comment 15675725 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
Isnāt it against some rules to trade a guy because he didnāt show up to Voluntary workouts?
Yes thatās why they canāt say they are even if that is why they are
I kinda donāt.
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
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But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
I guess then Iām speaking specifically to the people who said theyād be trading him because of the voluntary workouts.
I realize not everyone thinks that.
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But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
If they really are looking to deal him itās because something was said outside of him just not showing up to voluntary workouts. Maybe he got into it with someone in the new coaching staff, isnāt returning calls, etc.
I mean we saw this guy last year, he seems like heās got a screw loose.
Canāt they cut him just based on the screws being lose lol? There have been plenty of reasons well before these voluntary camps it is just ābad timingā
If he wants him around, he should stay.
Nothing else matters.
Nobody wants a useless possession receiver š
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Alright Nostradamus, whatās the money picks of this years draft?
The draft is easy to re-access years later. On the topic of Toney, fuck him. Get rid of him. The whole team is so broken that losing any player isnāt an issue especially if theyāre not buying in. I rather go 0-16 than play with turds like Beckham and Toney.
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Here I will defend Toneyā¦ The coaches should have known he was a converted QB out of high school, you know because they scouted him out of high school lol. He only played one full season at WR at FL. In addition to being a red flag he was also a project
I would make one slight amendment.
Passing on Parsons and Slater. Slater would have been a great, great ad to this pathetic OL. Guy is a monster technician at LT.
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I was floored last year when the Giants didn't put him on specials teams. The staff then basically said he needed to learn how to play receiver, and learning special teams was too complicated.
He's got joystick moves, but that's not enough. He'll get figured out if he can't master the position.
Here I will defend Toneyā¦ The coaches should have known he was a converted QB out of high school, you know because they scouted him out of high school lol. He only played one full season at WR at FL. In addition to being a red flag he was also a project
A project that isnāt willing to put the time in. Time to draft a WR. Thereās a kid out of V Tech that will be available in the late rounds. Think his last name is Mann. Got similar style to Toney.
Quote:
On his Twitter account tonight
I dont have Twitter
Link - ( New Window )
I kinda donāt.
Really? Perhaps Toney and his rep from last year is the reason. Perhaps the talks with him have gone poorly! Perhaps his teammates want nothing to do with him!
If I am the Giants I try and get the Pats interested with JJ on their staff now. Perhaps Atlanta, KC, Tennessee and even AZ. We shouldn't get hung up on the return as much has addition by subtraction.
Josh Allen was in 2019 in the Daniel Jones draft with the 6th overall pick.
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice. Toney - ( New Window )
I wouldn't want anyone on my team I had to "connect with."
I wouldn't want anyone on my team who didn't appreciate the opportunity he was given and try and make the most of it.
Anyone can do the bare minimum and show up when they have to. Give me guys who'll go above and beyond that, especially when they haven't proven a Goddamned thing in this league yet.
That's where we are at right now.
We have to see how we do with this year's #1. If we get an All-Pro OT or ER or CB well its all good. The Giants messed up by not assessing both Baker's and Toney's "mental / emotional /cognitive / spritiual" side well enough. I mean, I know you roll the dice with young guys but some questionable guys ya gotta say no. That is what happened with Parsons and that is what will happen with Thibodeux this year too. They both fell due to personal issues and such as much as anything else.
My thought right now is this: 1. Toney isn't going anywhere right now as no one will give us an early #2 for him. No chance of that and the cap hit. 2. Toney better show up in camp and play and stay healthy. 3. Ugly - he is an ass in camp and sits the season, a wasted pick and well he gets cut or traded or whatever.
Toney may be a child in a man's body, gifted with talent that he can't use due to his lack of maturity. We shall see.
It was such a good idea (trade for no.20 and no.7 [as it turns out] in 2022. But how do you pick up a guy with red flags when you passed on Parson's for red flags?.
And of course we have the hindsight powered posters damning the Giants for not picking Parson's in spite of red flags while suggesting we shouldn't have picked this red flagged clown.
My personal thoughts with many qualifications because all generalizations have exceptions. Generally speaking, I think anyone who has rings in their nose and tats like this guy and the track record he has, have fried brains. Beat up that statement all you want, generally speaking it's true. I don't think anyone will ever connect and, moreover, I think he's made a conscious decision: "I like the feeling and accomplishment that music and mind altering chemicals provide, I have enough money to last a lifetime, I don't want to be beat up and work like hell to get in shape and limp when I"m fifty."
I think we project our standards, our hopes, values and aspirations onto people who have made conscious choices to dance with their own hopes, values and aspirations.
All said with the hope that i'm wrong and recognizing that I may well be.
will just make the Giants re-build all that sweeter.
5 more years is all the Giants need.
and Shepard is the definition of mediocre...
Toney is a gifted athlete who, by all indications, has no desire to be great. There is no need to waste more time and money on the knucklehead.
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But thatās what we want our new GM and regime doing? Shadiness to get away with trading someone because they didnāt come to a voluntary workout? Trying to sneakily break rules?
I kinda donāt.
Really? Perhaps Toney and his rep from last year is the reason. Perhaps the talks with him have gone poorly! Perhaps his teammates want nothing to do with him!
when coach says get playbook, and you say no, here's my shitty music instead that YOU, coach, should check out, well, I gave him an A+ for creativity, because i couldn't think of a better way to shit on the coach or piss in his eye if I tried. And then makes out like it's all cool and coach enjoyed being bitched. Seriously, it's about as emasculating as you can get, and I think you just can't keep a guy like that without hurting your own perception as a leader with the rest of the team. He's got to go. Has to.
And plus we will be filling the two most important premium positions of need on this team: Leadership and Courage.
Quote:
All I'm saying is don't expect Giants officials to say anything publicly other than, "He's a Giant. We want him here. It's a voluntary program."
They can't say otherwise. Their hands are tied.
If they are really trying to dump him, the new regime is only doing so because Toney didn't show up on April 4th and has been absent since then. Everyone had a clean slate until April 4th.
^This.
No dude. It wasn't the decision he made not to show up on the 4th. How about the decisions he's made since then, like on the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, .......
Today is the 23rd. Fuck this guy.
And no, if he shows up and has a decent year I wont change my mind.If he gets over 1000yds receiving, is key in winning a few games, and does it again next year, then I'll change my mind. I doubt he's even here that long.
Not even to pick up the playbook, could he stop by for. that says everything. He doesn't even want to give the coaches a chance to meet him before they make decisions in the draft. He couldn't give a fuck less.
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My way or the highway....
Voluntary now means MANDATORY.
If I'm coaching him I go out of my way to find a way to connect with him so I do not get butthurt if he doesn't show up for Voluntary Practice. Toney - ( New Window )
I wouldn't want anyone on my team I had to "connect with."
I wouldn't want anyone on my team who didn't appreciate the opportunity he was given and try and make the most of it.
Anyone can do the bare minimum and show up when they have to. Give me guys who'll go above and beyond that, especially when they haven't proven a Goddamned thing in this league yet.
I feel for a rookie QB who not only is raw as hell and needs to learn, also isn't accurate, to play and play with subpar skill players. He's being sent out to die.
Deandre Baker
Kadarious Toney
They certainly lived up to my expectations.
What a shit show.
Giants could use 7th round pick. I don't think they have any....
This is the part that pisses me off too. We draw the line in the sand at Parsons, can't draft him because of red flags. Meanwhile it is the same FO that traded up into the first round to take DeAndre Baker, and then ignores red flags to draft Toney.
Giants making Kadarius Toney available for a trade before the NFL Draft, a move thatās been a year in the making - ( New Window )
I've posted for years that all of Sy's past scouting reports are in the Draft section of this website.
I kinda donāt.
"Rules"???
It doesn't matter what the "rules" are... anyone with half a brain knows that Toney is hurting himself and his teammates by not showing up. He's falling behind. You don't have to believe me, Daboll said it.
If you have new bosses, and 90 percent of your co-workers are in the classroom learning what they need to learn in order to be ready for their new job (remember OTAs are coming up next month) and you aren't there, it's noticed. The Giants aren't doing this Toney. Toney is doing it to himself.
Like, WTF?
Like, WTF?
There is a lot to digest in that article.
Deandre Baker
Kadarious Toney
Different regime, but add Eli Apple to that list.
Iāve been asking this too. Ralph reported more than $2m gets added which we are not really in a place to do
ā
@art_stapleton
š§µJoe Schoen at Combine on March 1:
"I donāt think Kadarius [Toney] is a tradable piece. Again, if somebody calls, weāre gonna listen. But, heās a good young player that our coaches really like. Weāve been in constant contact with him and weāre excited to see what he can do."
Are the Giants "shopping" Toney, which was the buzz generated by @PLeonardNYDN report last night? I can't confirm or refute that. Seems to be a lot of semantics being used around the league, from what I can gather. That's what Schoen said last month when asked directly about KT.
Does Toney's absence for the voluntary offseason program cast a different light on his immediate future? Absolutely. Suggesting it doesn't would be disingenuous. But I don't know if Giants have decided that now he has to go.
Entirely possible what's changed is Giants' evaluation of the WR class, and maybe some interest in Toney around the league. Smart move could be to weigh what they could get in return, and what the replacement value is in this draft.
Toney's not Schoen's first-round pick. š¤·āāļø
There is a fear of selling low, but Schoen's job is to rebuild this team. No one on this roster has done enough to be considered untouchable.
Will Toney be traded? I believe that only a Sith deals in absolutes. I've seen enough on this beat to not rule it out.
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
This is a good take.
Giants listening to Kadarius Toney trade offers, trade unlikely - ( New Window )
They get their new Tyreek and a stable vet CB, we move the KT enigma, can stay @#5  ,unless they get a blown away offer, get presumably Sauce or ER and an OL then a good player at #29.
Cmon KC! Do it! You got Deandre for a donut, and a shot at getting back better for almost nothing again.
BTW, the headline seems out of place with the content of the article.
Why not? The Giants have already done it this offseason (see Logan Ryan).
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
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?!
Why not? The Giants have already done it this offseason (see Logan Ryan).
That actually saved them cap space the rest was just dead money already accounted for
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In comment 15675921 TDTONEY said:
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?!
Why not? The Giants have already done it this offseason (see Logan Ryan).
That actually saved them cap space the rest was just dead money already accounted for
Only $775,000 (same as a cheap UFA) and it will cost them if they lose the grievance.
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just because he skipped out on some voluntary meet n' greet practices?
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
I am paying attention to what I read on the site from some and how they refer to the voluntary offseason activities...
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In comment 15675924 Jimmy Googs said:
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just because he skipped out on some voluntary meet n' greet practices?
You're not paying attention to what is happening in the program or what the coach has said.
These are not "meet and greet"... they are in the classrooms... they are learning the playbook and schemes... Toney is doing neither... he's falling behind... fast... for the second year in a row.
I am paying attention to what I read on the site from some and how they refer to the voluntary offseason activities...
You can call them voluntary all you want. And the GM and HC have to say that or they will get fined. But the fact that Toney is being shopped is proof that neither considers them voluntary (and for good reason).
The people who watched the Papa interview of Daboll and Schoen yesterday came to the same conclusion before this all started.
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In comment 15675923 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15675921 TDTONEY said:
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?!
Why not? The Giants have already done it this offseason (see Logan Ryan).
That actually saved them cap space the rest was just dead money already accounted for
Only $775,000 (same as a cheap UFA) and it will cost them if they lose the grievance.
So we could be adding even more? I just donāt see how this makes sense. Post June trade saves them money not cost them but they would obviously want to do it now or during the draft. Shitty situation that gives us zero leverage right now
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
he's potentially costing himself 10s of millions of dollars.. giants are right to cut bait if they feel he's not motivated to succeed.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
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This isn't hard to understand.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
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In comment 15675947 Eric from BBI said:
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This isn't hard to understand.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
- shows roster that no one gets special treatment
- attracts potential trade interest
Looks like GM knows what heās doing.
sounds refreshing
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
This sounds pretty spot on. I admittedly knew very little about the guy when they drafted him, but on draft night when they started talking about his rap career I was concerned.
It seems like his primary focus is on his outside interests and heās only playing football to grab some extra cash in parallel.
Itās one thing for an established star to pass on voluntary workouts (although with a new coaching staff thatās probably not good either), but for a player who missed a lot of time his rookie year with various injuries, shoe issues, etc. itās a bad look.
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
Completely agree. And him being a first round pick is irrelevant, for all we know Buffalo did not have a first round grade on him last year.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
In that type of environment where many are walking on eggshells because you are judged on your performance on a weekly basis, the employees who committed to their jobs and good at their jobs are the ones who are going to survive. COMMITMENT. Is your job important to you? (In this case, is football important to you?)
If the answer is no, your shelf life just dramatically decreased. They aren't going to put up with it.
Probably a bad analogy because social gatherings are far less important than classroom and field study, but why do you think employees show up at stupid corporate picnics? No one wants to be there, but they know if they don't, it's noticed. Now imagine if at the picnic, your bosses were actually teaching you something you needed to know in order to do your job.
Me too. That's what is so frustrating about this.
All Toney has to do is show up.
He can still fix this, but the clock is ticking.
What could a trade for Giantsā Kadarius Toney look like? NFL evaluators weigh in - ( New Window )
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
The problem is there is a mandatory mini-camp coming up. You want to get into a situation where the Giants tell him not to show up? That sounds like something that would quickly escalate.
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In comment 15675952 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15675947 Eric from BBI said:
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This isn't hard to understand.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
You really need to stop worrying so much about this seasons cap space. This season was ALWAYS going to be about purging the roster of all the disasters from the Gettleman era. Everyone that has been paying attention knows this season was going to be about taking the pain now to create a better path in future years. They arenāt going to be over the cap. No need to lose sleep over it or give yourself ulcers worrying about it so much.
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Again depending on the situation What could a trade for Giantsā Kadarius Toney look like? NFL evaluators weigh in - ( New Window )
The problem is there is a mandatory mini-camp coming up. You want to get into a situation where the Giants tell him not to show up? That sounds like something that would quickly escalate.
I take that back, the mandatory camp in in June.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
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In comment 15675953 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15675952 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15675947 Eric from BBI said:
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This isn't hard to understand.
If these reports are accurate, the coaches think the damage Toney can do to the team outweighs the damage to the salary cap.
The Giants can always create more cap space this year. They don't want to, but they can. Schoen said that this week.
Youāre right itās not because itās pure speculation and Iām going with the beats that said listening not shopping because that makes more sense. No reason for Schoen to act desperate right now
Again, if this is true... it's not desperation. He doesn't want him around. Listen to the Papa interview.
No I get it, with the track record and being a headache they very well could want him gone ASAP but we donāt know exactly what Daboll and Schoen are thinking besides āexploring all optionsā like Ralph said. Iād rather they build that narrative as opposed to making calls to trade a cancer that hurts their already horrible cap space.
You really need to stop worrying so much about this seasons cap space. This season was ALWAYS going to be about purging the roster of all the disasters from the Gettleman era. Everyone that has been paying attention knows this season was going to be about taking the pain now to create a better path in future years. They arenāt going to be over the cap. No need to lose sleep over it or give yourself ulcers worrying about it so much.
Did you read what I said? I was wondering about when it made sense but that article confirmed it. Post June 1 makes the most sense cap Wise for a team Iām cap trouble. Thatās absolutely a factor, one of many. Iām entitled to my opinion and speculation which is what this thread is for :)
I commented RE: Bradberry that it was refreshing to see him have a very clear sense of value. He didn't like the offers and didn't trade him, he wasn't set on a move one way or another. That was DG's biggest weakness, he'd get tunnel vision.
I agree with many that Schoen and Daboll are annoyed by Toney's behavior and maybe doing this is more a message than an indication that they think they will get fair value. But I think that's why there will be no move. I think you'd have to get at least a 3rd rounder for him and nobody is going to offer that.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
Well I guess Gettleman and Judge must rely on The Sporting News mocks instead of better football judgment. Toney was a Day 2 WR if you saw him play and looked at who was still on the board.
And I didn't say the Giants didn't need WR help. Of course they did and now that they picked a moron they still do...
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In comment 15675968 Jimmy Googs said:
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
Well I guess Gettleman and Judge must rely on The Sporting News mocks instead of better football judgment. Toney was a Day 2 WR if you saw him play and looked at who was still on the board.
And I didn't say the Giants didn't need WR help. Of course they did and now that they picked a moron they still do...
There are plenty more articles like that with scouts saying Day 1 pick
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
Schoen and Daboll didn't imagine Toney would be stupid enough not to show up after the disastrous season he had last year combined with the new regime/playbook/system/teammates.
When he didn't show up, they were like, "WTF?"
They reached out to him. Daboll even try to connect with him on his first passion...music.
One week goes by, two weeks, three weeks, mini-camp...
Still no Toney, who BTW, is sitting around in Florida.
I would imagine Schoen and Daboll at this point are like, "This guy doesn't get it... we don't want him on our team."
My guess is that it's very much like that Eric. IMO, Toney sent his message to the front office by not showing up even though he was pressed by his own teammates. There are times when "voluntary" isn't really voluntary, and this is one of those times.
Daboll didn't have to say that Toney never got his playbook, he put it out there for a reason. No movement from Toney to come in, so the next thing is get a leak to the press that he could be traded. Again, to me, it seems like they are trying to get it into his head that he's not going to be around here long. Schoen, Brown, and Daboll didn't draft him. They all have the complete backing of the ownership to do whatever they want with this roster.
And I mentioned this on twitter, the Giants could be trying to take advantage of the Deebo market. Toney isn't as good a player (obviously), but he could be a decent discount option for a team who either misses out on Deebo or feels the price tag is too high. If you are ever going to float his name on the market, right before the draft is when you do it.
The guy has a world of talent. But right now, he's flashed no more than Thomas Lewis did as a 1st round pick who had a couple of nice games but was always hurt.
I remember back in 2000, Ron Dixon kept oversleeping and his father made a comment in the press that he's going to screw up a golden opportunity. So his dad was making sure he got up to get to practice and workouts etc. Dixon made some exciting plays, got hurt and was gone. Ultimately, I think the Giants are trying to scare him straight. The question is, is Toney smart enough, or does he care enough, to figure that out before it's too late.
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
But I don't think they are bluffing.
The ball is in his court.
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In comment 15675968 Jimmy Googs said:
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
Maybe it was on fire because he led the team in yards from scrimmage š
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
I met Ron Dixon as a speech I gave in Florida years ago that was work related. He was a great guy.
But I don't think they are bluffing.
The ball is in his court.
I think it's a bit of both. If the Giants get an offer they like, I think they pull the trigger. But I don't think they dump him for a 4th rounder or whatever. If someone comes along and offers a late 1st or 2nd rounder, my guess is he's gone. I just don't see that market materializing for Toney, so it goes back to them trying to get it into his head that maybe he's not traded this year, but he's not going to see the end of his contract in NY.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
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In comment 15675968 Jimmy Googs said:
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
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dixon had a lot of ability. one of the few fun offensive players they had in that pre-shockey era.
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
I met Ron Dixon as a speech I gave in Florida years ago that was work related. He was a great guy.
am i remembering right that he basically played through some kind of knee injury and then was never the same player when he came back? the loudest i ever heard giants stadium was his return vs eagles.
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and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
The popular narrative on this site at this time last year was that Judge was gaining more and more control over Gettleman. I don't know if that was true or not, but it seems to be have largely forgotten.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
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and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
Completely agree. Judge had Parsons PSU position coach on his staff and allegedly decided to take him off the board, and yet had "multiple position coaches" vouching for Toney.
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In comment 15676028 Jimmy Googs said:
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and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
We kill Gettleman (as we should), but this also had Joe Judge on him as well. Judge's inroads for draft picks were all the SEC talent from his coaching connections. He knew what Toney was all about but thought he could coach him up.
The popular narrative on this site at this time last year was that Judge was gaining more and more control over Gettleman. I don't know if that was true or not, but it seems to be have largely forgotten.
That was just Gettleman defenders looking for someone else to hook their wagon too since he was such an awful GM and they couldn't keep a straight face supporting him any longer...
that's how i remember it - unfortunately he got hurt just before ACLs became such a common injury and while it wasn't a death sentence it was close, and there was that micro-fracture procedure that sehorn had done that seemed to have very uncertain outcomes. i don't remember him tearing anything but my guess is he had a meniscus or something and they either tried a repair that didn't go well or something like that.
out of all the off the wall picks ernie made in those years he was the only one who was a legitimate talent.
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and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
Agree. The question is how they misevaluated several prospects so badly and decided to overlook red flags with this chucklehead too...
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In comment 15675999 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15675968 Jimmy Googs said:
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
I believe that Sy had said on pure talent there were teams that said he was in the Top 5 in the draft. If you look at picks like Barkley, Engram, etc. it screams of infatuation with tools and working out the rest of the stuff later. That predates Gettleman because most of the core scouting department hasnāt changed.
Yep, joystick talent that really only had a strong year at Florida in 2020 when their offense was on fire. Top 5 comment is crazy but whatever...
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
i would imagine coachability is a quality best evaluated by a player's coaches.
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In comment 15676028 Jimmy Googs said:
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and picked him. Why trade down and risk losing such a weapon with a 2-cent head.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
He was in a tier with a bunch of guys like Vera Tucker, Jamin Davis, etc. if you read the comments. Giants knew they could drop back to 20, pick up a 2022 1st Round pick from a team that they thought would not make the playoffs, and still get a player from that tier. The question I have is how they misevaluated Slater so badly.
Agree. The question is how they misevaluated several prospects so badly and decided to overlook red flags with this chucklehead too...
Or maybe the Giants on talent alone had him on same tier as Waddle, Smith, etc. but knocked him down a tier because of āred flagsā.
parsons and slater falling as far as they did was also crazy.
even sewell went later than most expected.
that's not a good excuse for the nyg though because as mentioned they literally had Parson's position coach on their staff. if anyone could have anticipated his success you would think it'd have been them.
thankfully they got such a high pick this year and hopefully the new regime can correct the mistake. not often teams get a chance at a mulligan but that's exactly what they have with a draft rich in OTs, Edges, and CBs at the top.
The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
how odd...
that Kadarius Toney did not receive a playbook.
He was specifically asked the question.
And he answered it honestly.
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The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
how odd...
He had Rosen #1 in his draft and Josh Allen #5 in his draft . How odd
We all knew it had to get worse before it got better. Unless IMO your fooling yourself thinking we have a shot to be competitive this season. This kid doesn't care about football enough to put the work in. Red flags were there to prove that.
Get what you can for him and move on. We can replace him, and a lot of our current roster first rounders with day 2/3 level talent.
Thatās verbatim. We have a special one here folks
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
Particularly sad because each of next three WRs taken had better years than Toney.
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Says who? The last mocks in the 2021 draft say differently
CBS Sports had him going to Tampa Bay
Sporting News had him #20 to Chicago
Walter Football had him going to Tennessee
Todd McShay had him #20 to Chicago
He was always a late teens, late 1st, in between there guy. "He was drafted to help Jones", yeah, Shep can't stay healthy and Slayton took a nosedive in 2020. They needed WR help, that's why guys like Waddle and DeVonta were always mocked to them predraft.
You know, I am glad you brought this up. I felt that Gettleman's draft prep mirrored online mock drafts a little too closely.... as in his prep was lazy. "Oooh, that's a name I recognize! Let's draft him!"
I don't think the trade back itself was awful. If they had Parsons off their board, so be it - but that's a separate issue, especially if they flagged Parsons but drafted Toney. If the trade down had resulted in Paye or Darrisaw, as it looked like it might have in that moment immediately before they chose Toney, I think the value of the trade would look better.
This looks just as bad for the new regime as it does for Toney.
3 more years of suckitude coming up.
How do you know they haven't been reaching out and getting crickets in return?
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In comment 15675968 Jimmy Googs said:
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last year. He was a Day 2 guy.
The trade down was executed but they panicked a bit and brought up Toney on their board because they were desperate for a WR weapon to help Jones.
typical Giants...
Exactly, instead of taking the talent that was right there. DG was hell bent on getting a receiver after losing out on Smith.
That trade by the Eagles with Dallas to leapfrog the Giants and get Smith was another shining example of DGās incompetence. Itās like the Eagles and Cowboys were laughing at him when they made that trade.
Particularly sad because each of next three WRs taken had better years than Toney.
not taking elijah moore was probably the biggest surprise of the draft for me last year. now in fairness he ended up going 14 picks later so it's not like the nfl agreed with me, but if they were going to go WR that seemed a very safe pick.
in fairness though having seen him i do think toney is more talented than moore/bateman/moore even if they had slightly more productive statistical years.
Thatās verbatim. We have a special one here folks
And here I was thinking you were a fan... lol.
What a bummer, seems like he could bring a lot to the table if he just wanted it more. Another wasted 1st round pick likely. Ugh.
If they really wanted to move Toney they would shut up and not make a move until after he made some circus plays in the early portion of the season.
They wouldn't hurt his value by telegraphing that they want to move on from him while his value is already at a low-point due to injury.
This is a common refrain, but let me ask you this - if you have something in your home that you want to sell, do you think you get more for it by waiting for someone to ask if they can buy it, or if you post it on eBay instead?
You have to let the market know that a product is for sale before anyone tries to buy it. This was a solicitation for offers.
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take a $2.385M cap hit if he's traded. Our cap space for the top 51 is about $6.7M right now.
I see -$3M I just donāt see how this is possible
I would assume that any trade would be tied to 2023 picks so that they can execute this as a post-6/1 trade.
Thatās verbatim. We have a special one here folks
Sounds like a real winner.
At this point, Iād be shocked if heās on any team this year.
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what if the we are leaking this info ourselves because we have had talks with Team X and they are intyere4sted but stalling.. Leak the info that he is available in a trade and puts pressure on Team X to finalize the day asap.
Just a thought.
Or maybe they're smoking out the rat?
If they were going to use a rumor mill to smoke out a leak, why not use fake draft info instead? They'd achieve the same result without alienating a mercurial player who already seems detached from the team.
If there's a leaky source on Toney, I don't think it was intentional.
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In comment 15676051 Jimmy Googs said:
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The comment is literally in Sys report ā There are some teams that have Toney in the top 5 according to one of the very few media resources I trust and speak with. ā
Not denying it, only said it was crazy.
Where did Sy have rated/ranked?
Don't bother as I just looked. Toney was the 14th ranked WR in his list with a 77 grade which is a 3rd rounder.
how odd...
He had Rosen #1 in his draft and Josh Allen #5 in his draft . How odd
Sy has hit and misses with the best of them. I didn't bring him into this, you did by mentioning a one off quote from him regarding some others ranking Toney extremely high. And one that he himself didn't care to follow suit on...
I think the time he painted an air rifle to look a real semi-automatic and it took it to a gun fight was a pretty good indicator of bad judgement.
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And poor meeting behavior are a few reasons given by PFT article. Report: Giants trying to trade Kadarius Toney - ( New Window )
So they want to trade him yet here are a million reasons why you shouldnāt trade for him. Got it
You could also flip it to realize that Schoen and his braintrust know exactly what the cap implications of trading KT would be, and in a throwaway year, he might be part of the throwaway.
We're at the mercy of the beat, and Pat being the breaking news on this is tough to swallow although he's actually been more accurate recently.
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āYou gone hurt yo own damn feelings tryna hurt mine. idgaf about nothinā
Thatās verbatim. We have a special one here folks
And here I was thinking you were a fan... lol.
What a bummer, seems like he could bring a lot to the table if he just wanted it more. Another wasted 1st round pick likely. Ugh.
It was a joke but now the jokes on me š
What do you think goes through the mind of Daboll and Schoen when they see that post lol
just looked back and it seems he had a PCL injury towards the end of his 3rd year (2002) but the team didn't do surgery on it until June 2003 before training camp. It was an arthroscopic procedure and at the time they expected him to be ready for camp, but he lingered on PUP and ultimately never made it back on an NFL field.
2002 (his 3rd year) had been his best with 3 starts in 10 games, 22 receptions for 337 yards (17.1 per catch) and 2 tds.
the injury supposedly occurred against the vikings on 11/10/02 - which was a nyg win where he had 4 receptions for 107 yards.
he sat out 2 weeks and then came back for a game against Tennessee where he had 5 receptions for 93 yards and a td.
he then sat out until the playoffs but came back for the meltdown in SF where he had 5 receptions for 52 yards.
all told those were probably the 3 best games of his career as a receiver and sadly the last as well.
Unfortunately the Maras are the head of human resource psych evaluation process, who have shown repeatedly bad judgement of people sabotaging and interfering with their own head coach hiring process egging along FLores of all people, a couple of mealy mouths who have never worked for or accomplished jack squat in the real world.
Maybe Getts panicked that Urban Meyer was going to take him if he waited until Day 2...
and picked Micah Parsons there. Oh, you don't say, maybe a
red flag there for Micah? There are not a bunch of choir boys coming out of college these days. The stuff about Parsons was minimal anyhow. Another great move by 'Getts'.
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In comment 15675379 Des51 said:
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And poor meeting behavior are a few reasons given by PFT article. Report: Giants trying to trade Kadarius Toney - ( New Window )
So they want to trade him yet here are a million reasons why you shouldnāt trade for him. Got it
You could also flip it to realize that Schoen and his braintrust know exactly what the cap implications of trading KT would be, and in a throwaway year, he might be part of the throwaway.
We're at the mercy of the beat, and Pat being the breaking news on this is tough to swallow although he's actually been more accurate recently.
Agreed. I think this team being remotely competitive this year would be a miracle. Even if they have a great draft the roster will be largely turned over. Continuity is important if you are really looking to compete. Take your lumps now, clear the locker room of problems and move on.
If this team knocks it out of the park with this draft, finds a way to showcase Barkley early in the season to land a decent pick, and maneuvers to get a QB in next years draft (where we will presumably be picking top 10) they may be competitive sooner than later.
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dixon had a lot of ability. one of the few fun offensive players they had in that pre-shockey era.
toney's talent is obvious but it's just too easy to find WRs these days to get held hostage.
I met Ron Dixon as a speech I gave in Florida years ago that was work related. He was a great guy.
I thought Dixon helped the Giants more in the return game than as a receiver. Didn't he return a kickoff in the SB,
that folks don't want to talk about?
As for Thomas Lewis, pretty much a bust, didn't do much.
Terps is right that this is like an expansion team, except itās worse, because it is a cap loaded expansion team.
-- 2 receiving TDs, 1 rushing TD, 1 passing TD.
-- No games over 75 yards receiving.
-- 40 yards or less receiving in 22 of these 27 games.
-- 0-2 catches in a game in 20 of these 27 games
-- Two bowl game appearances (2018-2019), he averaged: 1.0 rec., for -0.5 yards, and 0.0 TDs.
The bulk of Toneyās eye-catching production came in his final five college games (Four of final 5 games with 100+ receiving yards)
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
just get a day 2 pick please.
As in they are actively shopping or just listening? We have an offer for more than a old candy bar wrapper?
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
that's my shocking face you can't see...
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
interesting - they definitely end up in a spot where the talent drop was noticeable. the only players left on the board even loosely discussed prior for #11 were rousseau and paye.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
So they didnāt have Bateman or Moore on their board? I find that difficult to believe. Judges staff has loved Toney for a while and his press conference tells me this was an easy decision for them.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Holy c***.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
š
Dave delivers the goofs all the time.
Took us by surprise
Unprepared
We werenāt sure
Flying by the seat of his pants
All hallmarks of a competent FO..
I'd be surprised if Toney isn't traded at this point. Schoen and Daboll didn't draft him and many other people in the FO are apparently also tired of him.
Schoen saying at the combine that Toney wasn't a "tradable piece" was before he skipped the voluntary workouts. I think Eric is right. My guess is Schoen and Daboll have had enough of Toney and are also surprised at how this team was run before they arrived.
I'm happy with a fourth or high fifth for Toney. Sometimes you have to take losses. What hurts is that this is the second time we've had to do so with a first round player about whom there were real character concerns before they were drafted.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
Good, and thanks as always for the info
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The incompetence...Good Lord.
I had heard Judge's staff loved Toney.....
To be honest....I am tired of looking back.....as too many variables.
I pray....we keep this coaching staff!
Who can afford the 5mil cap hit?
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Even with 10 minutes, DG needed more time to flip through his huge binder and figure out who was the best value there, meanwhile JJ had tunnel vision on Toney and that ended up being the card they handed in.
No more binders.
if schoen and daboll end up being legit those qb sneaks could end up being the best playcalls this franchise has made since SB 46.
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The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
They wanted Smith or Waddle. The "they wanted more weapons for Jones" line feels like a quip when in reality it was truly the best thing to do, especially going forward. Slayton's play fell off a cliff and Shepard was always hurt. It was a very good WR class. I had no bones for that decision. He was also slated to go between 20-32 as most mocks had him there. It comes down to scouting and interviews when you find these real concerns within their ambition and selflessness as a teammate.
Why can't we package Toney to KC for more picks. He would probably enjoy playing with Mahomes and we can get a package if we parlay the #5 or 7 with him.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Appreciate you chiming in, and if memory serves that story about not being prepared for a scenario that landed us pick #20 lines up with the rumors that were shared at the time last year
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
Every Gettleman player removed from the roster is a victory. Every single one.
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Trading Toney will accelerate $2.4M dollars in cap liability, which when all is said and done will require the Giants to cut a player like Slayton (in addition to other moves).
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
Every Gettleman player removed from the roster is a victory. Every single one.
Schoen isnāt getting rid of Thomas, McKinney or Ojulari nor should he.
And they were Judge picks anyway
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In comment 15676161 Rico said:
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The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
The entire problem begins with the edict to get a weapon for Daniel Jones. This reaching nonsense has to end. The trade was fine, but Darrisaw and Paye were the right picks at twenty. Hopefully Schoen and Daboll will be prepared and let the draft come to them...
They wanted Smith or Waddle. The "they wanted more weapons for Jones" line feels like a quip when in reality it was truly the best thing to do, especially going forward. Slayton's play fell off a cliff and Shepard was always hurt. It was a very good WR class. I had no bones for that decision. He was also slated to go between 20-32 as most mocks had him there. It comes down to scouting and interviews when you find these real concerns within their ambition and selflessness as a teammate.
It was most definitely not the best thing to do had they not traded back. The choice was Parsons or Slater. They were both generous gifts given to this organization by the vagaries of the draft that were ignored while the "smartest guys in the room" were focused on their own needs aka crap. And this is not hindsight - it was as clear as day at the time. And if they wanted to "reach" for a WR at twenty, then Bateman was the better choice there, but suboptimal in comparison to Darrisaw or Paye. Also not hindsight.
Can't keep making excuses for bad decision making.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
Jeez Louise that is soooo similar to 1996 when the Giants panicked and picked Cedric Jones... Except the Giants did trade back, so there's that at least... YET THEY WERE STILL UNPREPARED!!!!
Add WR to the horrific column if that happens.
the cap is way less important than draft capital. that has to be the priority.
the importance of this years draft cannot be overstated. when all said and done they are likely to have more than 2 drafts worth of draft capital.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
How could the trade with the Bears have been a surprise? DG said in his post draft press conference that he had spoken with the Bears' GM before the draft. He said the Bears' GM called him several days before the draft about moving up and that he spoke with him again during the draft before pick #11.
Did the Giants really believe that AVT would last until pick #20? That would be surprising since there were rumors he would have been the pick at #11 if we had not made the trade with the Bears.
the importance of this years draft cannot be overstated. when all said and done they are likely to have more than 2 drafts worth of draft capital.
I don't disagree. Iām the just stating the inevitable economic impact.
I tend to agree with Terps. Kill āEm All. You know my feelings on the scouting system.
An irreparably bad system brought in all these players.
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In comment 15675337 AcidTest said:
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take a $2.385M cap hit if he's traded. Our cap space for the top 51 is about $6.7M right now.
I see -$3M I just donāt see how this is possible
I would assume that any trade would be tied to 2023 picks so that they can execute this as a post-6/1 trade.
Ahhh so even if made now it can be designated and official June 1? Now that would make sense. Doing it now didnāt
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
This describes Incompetence at the highest possible level!
How could they not have mocked a scenario where the WR they advertised they wanted wasn't there and the Bears would be interested in moving up for a QB?
So they go with a WR because they wanted one for DJ. Totally forced that pick.
He will be injured the whole year so his shit attitude won't infect the team since he won't be around much.
Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell were the backstops - a guarantee of professionalism and expertise in case Gettleman and Pettit stumbled!
Thank God both are still in position to help us move forward!!!
Onwards and upward!
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Do you guys see now why I say this reminds me of the Eli Manning situation?
Sorry, Eric, can you explain?
"Eli's not done! All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
"Daniel is not a bad QB. All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell were the backstops - a guarantee of professionalism and expertise in case Gettleman and Pettit stumbled!
Thank God both are still in position to help us move forward!!!
Onwards and upward!
What do you mean backstop? Chris Mara was your proclaimed shadow GM just a few months ago...
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claiming incompetence could not be more wrong!
Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell were the backstops - a guarantee of professionalism and expertise in case Gettleman and Pettit stumbled!
Thank God both are still in position to help us move forward!!!
Onwards and upward!
What do you mean backstop? Chris Mara was your proclaimed shadow GM just a few months ago...
Jesus Googs...It's a joke... and it also implies that I am saying Mara has too much influence. Keep up.
One man didn't do this.
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In comment 15676256 Eric from BBI said:
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claiming incompetence could not be more wrong!
Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell were the backstops - a guarantee of professionalism and expertise in case Gettleman and Pettit stumbled!
Thank God both are still in position to help us move forward!!!
Onwards and upward!
What do you mean backstop? Chris Mara was your proclaimed shadow GM just a few months ago...
Jesus Googs...It's a joke... and it also implies that I am saying Mara has too much influence. Keep up.
You haven't been very funny lately. More of a grouch.
Seeing your buddy Chris Mara is the Draft War Room next week will bouy your spirits though...
Lol how do you know that?
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
And let's for the sake of argument say Eli wasn't done or Jones isn't a bad QB, do you want your owner dictating to the personnel shop, "Get my QB more weapons!"
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In comment 15676252 Eric from BBI said:
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Do you guys see now why I say this reminds me of the Eli Manning situation?
Sorry, Eric, can you explain?
"Eli's not done! All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
"Daniel is not a bad QB. All we need to do is surround him with more weapons!"
I don't get the complaining about the Giant's "fixation" and "blinders" about getting WRs for your QB by some of bbi's most savvy posters. You have to go out of your way to do it. Like flying up the draft board for Julio Jones for noodle armed Matt Ryan and trading picks for Diggs for scattershot Allen.
Lets just say Brandon Marshall and Toney are not exactly Jones and Diggs...
Who the fuck said that?
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
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To see the narrative already being formed in here. If a trade doesnāt happen itās because Mara vetoed it.
Who the fuck said that?
Easy dude, TDTONEYs post alluded to something like that. I could see people rolling with that.
I never said that lol
This post seems to imply that.
If I interpreted it wrong, then my bad. No big deal.
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In comment 15676281 RicFlair said:
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To see the narrative already being formed in here. If a trade doesnāt happen itās because Mara vetoed it.
Who the fuck said that?
Easy dude, TDTONEYs post alluded to something like that. I could see people rolling with that.
I asked a hypothetical question followed by another question about the OBJ trade. No accusations or narrative being formed.
And let's for the sake of argument say Eli wasn't done or Jones isn't a bad QB, do you want your owner dictating to the personnel shop, "Get my QB more weapons!"
Itās a simple, obvious problem. The owner has favorite players and heās not shy about it.
Schoen needs to sit Mara down and make him watch the scene in Moneyball where Brad Pitt explains to Jonah Hill why you canāt have a relationship with a player.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
How could anyone tell? We drafted one of the best rbs in college just to see him get hit 4 yds in the back field about 70 percent of the time. I know that doesnt make Jones good but not a singl nfl qb would look good here. Not a single one.
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Or will he finally step aside?
This post seems to imply that.
If I interpreted it wrong, then my bad. No big deal.
It did imply that.
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Chris Mara is a national treasure.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
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Eric is spot on regarding Manning.
The Giants havenāt had a good QB since 2015. And their operating model has been find ways to supplement the talent, because John Maraās favorite player is the QB. God forbid the Giants get better quarterbacks.
How could anyone tell? We drafted one of the best rbs in college just to see him get hit 4 yds in the back field about 70 percent of the time. I know that doesnt make Jones good but not a singl nfl qb would look good here. Not a single one.
Good lordā¦
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In comment 15676275 Eric from BBI said:
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Chris Mara is a national treasure.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
Heās going to be playing Wordle on his iPhone in the war room.
I love how you guys get worked up with Johnās little brother in the hen houseā¦
After that we should be hoping something compels the Maras to sell the team to someone who won't treat it like a way to give jobs to family and friends.
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In comment 15676271 TDTONEY said:
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Or will he finally step aside?
The
This post seems to imply that.
If I interpreted it wrong, then my bad. No big deal.
It did imply that.
It implied itās a possibility not a given circumstance. Mara and his guys are everywhere we just canāt really measure their impact. So purely speculation
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
You are worked up about a lot of things. You should blame Toney being a moron on Chris Mara because he has the player personnel titleā¦
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
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I'm not worked up by what you think.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
You are worked up about a lot of things. You should blame Toney being a moron on Chris Mara because he has the player personnel titleā¦
Isnāt that McDonnell?
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
i agree with this sentiment but its hard to see anyone offering a second, or even a third, for toney given that he's now cemented his reputation as a guy who doesn't show like to show up for voluntaries, doesn't like to practice, can't stay on the field, isn't very productive when he plays, and has been credibly accused of faking injury to get out of playing late in the season.
given this, they'd be lucky to get a 5th.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
Would you give up a 2nd or 3rd for Toney? I wouldn't.
The Giants should sell Toney and every other player they can for whatever they can get. If it's a bunch of 7th rounders in 2037, so be it.
It's a roster filled entirely with garbage. The important thing is to be rid of the garbage.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
After that we should be hoping something compels the Maras to sell the team to someone who won't treat it like a way to give jobs to family and friends.
I would say most owners in the league fall into this. I am not worried about ownership at the moment as we finally made moves away from the tried and true Ny Giants way.
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The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
Then whyās everyone so confident Daboll and Schoen are the answers then?
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
I heard the same, no plan or remaining targets by 20, and Judge pushed hard for Toney.
Trade him.
Is there any precedent for this in the history of the NFL, post merger? In the span of three years, a team giving up on two of their 1st round picks after only one year?!?
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The trade with the Bears seemed to catch us by surprise. We took the deal because our WR's were all gone and it was too good to pass up. But I don't think we had planned for that scenario.
We hoped AVT might drop to us, but once he was taken we weren't sure who to take. Getty was flying by the seat of his pants late in the first round, and that was a setup for a bad decision.
I heard the same, no plan or remaining targets by 20, and Judge pushed hard for Toney.
Trade him.
Knew it was Judge. Get the Patriots on the lineā¦.
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The scope and scale of the problem are as deep and fundamental as could exist in an NFL organization. We have to hope the blind squirrel found a nut in Schoen.
The fans who think this was simply pick an outside GM, let him pick a coach problem, have seemingly never worked an a complex failing organization.
Ten years of failure is an eternity in the real business world. Everyone would be gone in a normal business.
The problem too is it is run like a family-operated business. That's a great work environment for the employees. It's wonderful too for the owners for a variety of reasons IF.... and it's a big IF... the operation works well.
If it doesn't, friendships and loyalties can get in the way of making rational decisions. The Giants never will be a cutthroat corporate environment (and I don't really want them to be), but you have to be able to make tough decisions and get rid of people who are not performing.
And I've said this before, let's assume Chris and Tim have no pull in the building (would seem odd given their lofty titles but let's just go with it). Why would you open yourself up to charges of incompetent nepotism??? Just tell Chris and Tim to step aside and pursue other hobbies... come to the games on Sunday. And John should know by now that he personally is not good at getting involved in personnel decisions. How many times does he have to be proven wrong before he looks in the mirror and says, "I'm the problem."?
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We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
Is there any precedent for this in the history of the NFL, post merger? In the span of three years, a team giving up on two of their 1st round picks after only one year?!?
I don't know, but this is a catastrophic development. Bad teams can't simply afford to keep doing this. It's like someone being told they are another $10,000 in debt when they already can't make the minimum payment on their credit cards.
Agreed. This makes NO sense at all
āToneyās injury history will be monitored after he missed nine total games in 2017 and 2019. The latter injury was never disclosed publicly.ā
But we have no idea the degree of interest, the probability and like BBI....Toney is a bum, lets get a 2nd/3rd Rd pick.
I am fine with trading/releasing everyone not on board but 4000 conclusive comments based on so little ......seems a bit much.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
If this is how you feel why donāt you take a break from the Giants and this board until 2037! Weāll fill you in on what you missed!
Most everyone on this board could use a break from you and your contempt; maybe you the most of all.
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I have 2 comments:
1) Say what you want about these players, but you can not compare the work ethic of Thomas, Barkley, and Jones to Toney (who has none). The NFL has a thousand ridiculous athletic freaks, what often separates them is effort and desire.
2) Schoen and Daboll come from a winning program. They know what it takes to win, and its more than just talent. Its commitment too. They have correctly taken one look at Toney and made their decision.
Take a 2nd or a 3rd, just move on from him
Would you give up a 2nd or 3rd for Toney? I wouldn't.
The Giants should sell Toney and every other player they can for whatever they can get. If it's a bunch of 7th rounders in 2037, so be it.
It's a roster filled entirely with garbage. The important thing is to be rid of the garbage.
If there were some way to compel every player on the roster to retire, that would be ideal.
I dont think Terps is a moron. I actually agree with a lot of his views on the state of the team. But this here....this is a truly moronic statement.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
I just went for a walk with the wife and was trying to explain this to her... and I finished with... "and get this, they didn't draft Parsons because of 'character concerns'"!
I just dont see it.
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This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
It's not about emotion, and whether those three guys can play is not the only consideration. It's also a question of timing relative to their second contracts and aligning that with this massive rebuilding project.
Itās a waste of course, but there are plenty of good WR prospects throughout this draft to take his spot on the team.
[ Rhetorical ^^ ]
[ Rhetorical ^^ ]
Not close. We've had NFTs that have gone way over this.
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In comment 15676356 Go Terps said:
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This is a roster that was assembled based on completely flawed methodologies by people that, frankly, did not know what the hell they were doing.
If Schoen is going to be given a real opportunity to build something using his (hopefully) smarter methods, he first needs to completely break down the existing disaster.
He is starting below zero. This roster is a substantial net negative.
He already did and he didnāt use any emotions thankfully. Thomas, Ojulari and McKinney are here to stay because he thinks they can play or help the team. Crazy idea I know
It's not about emotion, and whether those three guys can play is not the on consideration. It's also a question of timing relative to their second contracts and aligning that with this massive rebuilding project.
Of course but thatās a little ways away and no need to make a decision today when the new regime hasnāt even been in pads with them yet. The Giants have plenty of cap space to build a roster with a blend of rookies and veterans. Until thereās some indication they arenāt a fit or prohibitive to building a winning team It seems they are seen as worthy roster and cap space to Schoen. This guy was part of a huge and successful overhaul in BUF so letās see what he does
Disfunction like the Giants have builds, is subtle, and a lot of time the last people who know itās happening are the people who could stop it.
Bottom line, ownership in whatever form shouldnāt have a real or ceremonial seat at the scouting table, and ownership shouldnāt go in front of the press and defend their favorite players.
Schoen will have to build up his credibility with ownership, because the non-credible work Reese and Gettleman did over the last decade has opened up ownershipās desire to fill that vacuum.
This is a fair point.
It's out of frustration for sins of the recent past.
That said, Mara is still publicly commenting on specific personnel issues (he did after both introductory press conferences and at the owners' meeting). The fear is if he is still doing that publicly, what is he telling his employees privately?
@jeffphowe
Ā·
15m
Giants WR Kadarius Toney has an intriguing trade market. While Iāve heard from some teams that have no interest, others are high on the talent and ability to let him develop in their system. Sounds like heās been available for a little while. The draft should create urgency.
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In comment 15676287 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15676275 Eric from BBI said:
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Chris Mara is a national treasure.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
Heās going to be playing Wordle on his iPhone in the war room.
I love how you guys get worked up with Johnās little brother in the hen houseā¦
Ah, this again.
YOU are the one peddling conspiracy theories. He's the senior VP of player personnel, which means he's had a hand in all of the suckage since 2012. It's up to YOU to prove it's a figurehead do-nothing title. Which you have failed to do consistently, to the point that we question if you aren't a Mara yourself.
Good day.
If he does: a motivated KT helps the team - a positive
If he doesnāt:
players see the importance of showing up - a positive
Possibly trade bait - a positive
If this info leak wasnāt intentional, it sure is a happy accident.
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The fact that this is out there publiclly about a former first rounder in his second year is so obviously a sign of Schoen firmly in charge. When Mara fucks up the next time, we should all call him out for it. When heās doing things right, acknowledge or say nothing. Zero reason to call ownership out here. If anything opposite is warranted in this case.
This is a fair point.
It's out of frustration for sins of the recent past.
That said, Mara is still publicly commenting on specific personnel issues (he did after both introductory press conferences and at the owners' meeting). The fear is if he is still doing that publicly, what is he telling his employees privately?
@jeffphowe
Ā·
15m
Giants WR Kadarius Toney has an intriguing trade market. While Iāve heard from some teams that have no interest, others are high on the talent and ability to let him develop in their system. Sounds like heās been available for a little while. The draft should create urgency.
Howe knows Judge well the pastā¦
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they're struggling to evaluate not only football talent and fit but individual character and personality, they're missing flaws left and right.
I said this in another thread. Whoever theyāre listening to outside the organization (Cutcliffe, Alabama coaches, etc.) they need to cut them out, now. Those people are not doing us any favors.
Add Belichick to the list.
I also understand the sending a message crowd. Maybe JS just listens and keeps in his hip pocket.....for now.
This is very unlike just about any other business. Lot of other factors are in play imv.
The last ten years suck. Can't really think of another scenario where you had a two time SB winning QB (early in his prime) and HC (who had won everywhere before) where it went so bad. 2012-? (16, 17, 18). Really sad.
So we should be screening now on this? Yikes
How he chooses to present himself?
Yes, absolutely. In fact, we already do as does every other NFL team.
Uber - the meddling isnāt happening right now. Some posters, including me, were blaming Maraās early 2020 āget Jones some weaponsā statement for influencing organizational thinking leading to an overdrafting of Toney. Thatās the context.
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So we should be screening now on this? Yikes
How he chooses to present himself?
Yes, absolutely. In fact, we already do as does every other NFL team.
Wait if we already do it then he passed said test, what exactly are you referring to?
Fuck off.
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Wait if we already do it then he passed said test, what exactly are you referring to?
Fuck off.
As I thought
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
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In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Toney is who he is. You dump him for ( as GT said) a seventh rounder in 2037 if you have to.
We have to hope Schoen and Daboll are the start of a new chapter in team history where decisions are being made correctly, for the right reasons. Otherwise we are screened. 2nd #1 draft choice dumped after a year ( of the last few years?) Doesnāt matter, not from this regime. Virtually none of these players are going to matter in the grand scheme of things.
Itās also pretty obvious itās going to take two years to fix the cap and clean out the garbage. Whatever, as long as they are making progress. Winning may not come until 2024. So be it if itās then sustainable
i swear some of you guys see your own shadow with this stuff.
the problem wasn't that they picked a WR.
the problem is that they picked a knucklehead.
and that they did so despite having coaches on staff who were very familiar with him going back to when he was a HS recruit.
another reason to be greatful those coaches are no longer here.
An exorcism?
It's not crazy to think, that another org will think the Giants are such a shitshow of an org with terrible culture and leadership, given a more functional org Toney might improve.
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In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
That right there is funny, I donāt care who ya are
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In comment 15676461 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
That right there is funny, I donāt care who ya are
Funny too is this is exactly how I picture him
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
My premise has always been that Toney is a Gettleman artifact, even in the face of some persuasive arguments to contrary.
Correction: at top of thread, it was bandied about by some, inaccurately, that it was after the Toney selection that Gettleman stomped past the War Room camera while JJ was high fiving others (I never witnessed the 2nd part, only the 1st):
That happened after the OJULARI selection, not Toney at 20.
Thus, it was not the Toney selection with which the GM was demonstrating his disagreement.
As Eric astutely observed, selection of Toney smacks of Eli 2018 redux. While it's been asserted, most concretely by Eric on Li (with supporting quote from JJ on draft day) that JJ was pushing for KT, he may well have been. But who is the guy in charge, who is the GM, who is guiding this godforsaken, rudderless ship in endless shoals?
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
I like the idea of drafting the best tackle available and the best guard available or drafting the two best cornerbacks if they are available.
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this dude opened his mouth as a Giant, I knew this wasnāt going to end well.
So we should be screening now on this? Yikes
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In comment 15676461 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
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youāre about 500 of them.
I wonder what Sonic Youth thinks.
I donāt follow you?
It sets a tone, coach and GM arenāt taking any shit. If you donāt want to play, weāll ship you out.
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
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In comment 15676466 PakistanPete said:
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In comment 15676461 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
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would have to be toxicity of his character, and what that would do in a locker room.
My reasoning is that he's going to cost cap money to trade. He's got enough talent, even if it is minimal, to be worth keeping in light of that cap hit. His presence has to be negative to push a negative cap outcome.
Nothing shocking there. But...
How has the new brass, who haven't had much, if any, face time with him, determine his toxicity? What Schoen and Daboll have to evaluate him on is tape and talking to the old brass still in the building. Is the tape so bad? is one season enough to determine his availability due to injury?
IMO, it would be the old brass who is still around who is behind lamenting his toxicity.
They did say the communication was "constant" did they not? The premise that Schoen and Daboll are fools who have no idea who Toney is, IMV, foolish. They know exactly who he is. He works for them. Or doesn't....
I'm sure Schoen knows all about Toney and frankly the rest of our players. GM's keep their knowledge current on most of the NFL players, not just their team. Plus you know that they must have researched him before last years draft.
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In comment 15676473 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15676466 PakistanPete said:
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In comment 15676461 TDTONEY said:
Quote:
In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
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This team is cursed
An exorcism?
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In comment 15676581 Red Right Hand said:
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In comment 15676473 TDTONEY said:
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In comment 15676466 PakistanPete said:
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In comment 15676461 TDTONEY said:
Quote:
In comment 15676460 PakistanPete said:
As I thought
Yep. Why don't you go shit out another 50 posts a minute?
Youād like that so your post gets overlooked. The reaction said it all.
Now moving on that writer I mentioned earlier expects the Patriots to be interested. Guess Judge is open to a reunion
Reaction said nothing other thasn fuck off. He speaks like a fucking imbecile, can't spel, and clearly, besides being a dumbass, has character issues, like, lazy no show worthless narcissist. I can see why your a fan.
He canāt āspelā ?
And you have multiple other spelling and grammatical errors.
Now remind me how thatās a factor?
I can spell, I can't type at least not very well eating pizza and drinking my beer. I am not, however, such a narcissist to think it's my place to re-invent the English Language for my own convenience, unlike Yung Joka.
Is he trying to re-invent it or he just canāt spell? We are really overthinking this, heās actually pretty tame compared to some others. Take a look at Robbie Andersons Twitter ššš
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
Good post. And I think it is worth adding that some pro-Giants mouthpieces (Dotino, for example) while defending Gettleman this past December were saying that the Baker pick was 100% on Shurmur, with him saying something like āwe donāt need choir boys, we need guys who can play.ā
Was Gettleman so easily bullied? It really seems like he let the patients run the asylum.
I pondered how is it that Toney has burnt bridges so badly with a regime that has not had a chance to deal with him up close? Schoen and Daboll have undoubtedly had plenty of communication with that part of the Giants staff that are returning from last year. That staff would be, IMO, the main source of the info that Schoen/Daboll are using to determine Toney's character is too toxic to keep. I'm sure they've communicated with Toney to some extent, as well, but how much could it be to drive a narrative that it is worth extra pain to be rid of him? This is not an accounting, or a X/O, decision, but one based on character, and S/D simply haven't had enough exposure to determine the character is so bad they should give up on Toney at additional cost. The returning staff had to have reinforced/helped shape the decision.
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ā¦But who is the guy in charge, who is the GM, who is guiding this godforsaken, rudderless ship in endless shoals?
Now comes Rico, whose record has been pretty darn good, and lays the selection unequivocally at the feet of DG's incompetence and lack of preparedness...after having traded down.
JJ may well have played a role, maybe indisputably, but the buck stops with a boob of historic, nearly incomparable, incompetence.
Good post. And I think it is worth adding that some pro-Giants mouthpieces (Dotino, for example) while defending Gettleman this past December were saying that the Baker pick was 100% on Shurmur, with him saying something like āwe donāt need choir boys, we need guys who can play.ā
Was Gettleman so easily bullied? It really seems like he let the patients run the asylum.
I pondered how is it that Toney has burnt bridges so badly with a regime that has not had a chance to deal with him up close? Schoen and Daboll have undoubtedly had plenty of communication with that part of the Giants staff that are returning from last year. That staff would be, IMO, the main source of the info that Schoen/Daboll are using to determine Toney's character is too toxic to keep. I'm sure they've communicated with Toney to some extent, as well, but how much could it be to drive a narrative that it is worth extra pain to be rid of him? This is not an accounting, or a X/O, decision, but one based on character, and S/D simply haven't had enough exposure to determine the character is so bad they should give up on Toney at additional cost. The returning staff had to have reinforced/helped shape the decision.
I'll own putting words in your mouth, but it does seem to be the belief you hold from your posts. Still.
I get that, cognitvely, it is a brutal experience for ALL OF US to wrap our head around the fact that this is ANOTHER first round pick just pissed away, and at this point the pain is significant, even for the tough guys amongst us.
Hell, in a perfect world I'd have kept Booker and Bradberry.I see no way this man ever does anything to move this team forward. He doesn't care.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/ab/4c/62ab4c348b5f49b021df859ff6603e4c.jpg
Link - ( New Window )
Or you're misinterpreting what I said.
Or both.
I'm not one for endless back and forth. I've said my piece. You don't agree, or don't understand my point. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. I accept either.
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In comment 15676301 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15676287 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15676275 Eric from BBI said:
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Chris Mara is a national treasure.
Heās a favorite among the conspiracy theorists tooā¦
No conspiracy theory.
He has his brother's ear.
His title is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel.
He along with John and Steve were the only person in all of the GM and HC interviews. No other Mara or Tisch were in those interviews.
John has repeatedly lied about his level of importance and value. I love his line about teams lining up to hire him.
But you keep telling yourself that the issues were JUST Reese, Gettleman, Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, etc. if it makes you feel better.
Heās going to be playing Wordle on his iPhone in the war room.
I love how you guys get worked up with Johnās little brother in the hen houseā¦
Ah, this again.
YOU are the one peddling conspiracy theories. He's the senior VP of player personnel, which means he's had a hand in all of the suckage since 2012. It's up to YOU to prove it's a figurehead do-nothing title. Which you have failed to do consistently, to the point that we question if you aren't a Mara yourself.
Good day.
Yeah Iām a Mara. And youāre a chucklehead.
Chris is an owner with an office that creates a handful of player evaluations each year that get loaded into a database that the GM may or may not even read. This is the worthless piece of your worries.
But Chris gets to be in the room and he speaks to his brother on whatever the topic of the day is. His advice probably isnāt helpful but it wouldnāt stop even if you stripped him of his title and took away his office. Because he is an owner.
The GM runs the show as to scouting and roster buildingā¦
"There is more involvement [in the draft process] because I wasn't here ... two falls ago," Judge said. "The ability to talk about who is in the draft, who we are targeting, what kind of bodies ... the scheme and further understanding on both sides [of] what we are looking for and how we work together. This time through it was a lot more fluid."
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I'm not worked up by what you think.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
And it must be Mara's fault. Okay, Torquemada. Keep looking for heretics in the woodwork.
Odd take. Just who is responsible then for hiring Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge?
Not really sure what your point is here.
I agree. They failed on multiples levels especially self scouting. SMH
So, looking ahead, Schoen wants to stay true to his board. And then this Toney-Gate situation breaks and falls into Schoen's lap as an opportunity to (1) unload Toney, a player he didn't draft and doesn't want to deal with, and (2) a chance to grab a better WR prospect...
If this punk continues his childish behaviors, fucking have him return kick-offs until he blows his knee or get a concussion. Half joking, sort of. If he starts to fumble on purpose or fake injury, donāt play him and keep him away.
Last thing we need is to have him become a star elsewhere and we have a lousy 5th round pick to show for it.
Last thing we need is to have him become a star elsewhere and we have a lousy 5th round pick to show for it.
It's worth the stretch. Do you think other teams have "grow-up-and-be-responsible" pills that we don't have?
Or you're misinterpreting what I said.
Or both.
I'm not one for endless back and forth. I've said my piece. You don't agree, or don't understand my point. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. I accept either.
I like your posts, in general, I respect your opinion, in general and I shouldn't have put words in your mouth to make my point. I understood you well enough. My bad, I apologize.
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In comment 15676308 Eric from BBI said:
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I'm not worked up by what you think.
I'm worked up about the Giants stinking like garbage for the past decade and trying to find out why it keeps happening despite the fact that the team keep changing GMs and HCs.
We're now to the point where they are dumping 1st-round draft picks the year after they drafted them (this has now happened twice).
And it must be Mara's fault. Okay, Torquemada. Keep looking for heretics in the woodwork.
Odd take. Just who is responsible then for hiring Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge?
Not really sure what your point is here.
I took a run at you specifically because it is YOU who run this place, and I find the constant Mara carping you engage in annoying, unnecessary, and ultimately unseemly. I don't like it when you come off as unhinged. I don't think anyone else enjoys it either, but I suppose we all have a right to vent, especially the guy who made the site. it's not that I think you are wrong, it's that after awhile it's irritating.
My nature is such that generally I'm more likely to remain engaged and simply return an irritation as opposed to withdrawing. I don't think it's such an awful thing for you yourself to get tweaked from time to time, especially when you've lost your sense of decorum.
No wonder the man still has a job. Click, click, click
Is Peppers' house still on the market?
Second, the kid does have PHYSICAL talent but lacks the Mental and Emotional maturity to use it to its potential. So many young men have this issue where do I even begin.
Third, sure you listen to offers and a good team late 2nd round may jump in and make an offer on draft day for him HOPING to hit a home run by taking a risk. If a guy is on your board and a team calls you pull the trigger and eat the loss somehow (cap space that is....).
Fourth, most likely we hold onto Toney and hope the veterans and coaches rally around him and get him to "see the light" cause if Toney is a "problem" in camp he likely makes the roster as the 53rd man or is outright cut.
My dream scenario is Five: he wakes up and realizes his potential. At the end of the day only Toney knows what he is going to do and whether he wants it. But clearly if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter what team he gets on he is a lost cause.
How the hell did we pick him KNOWING he had issues? I think much lake CB Baker we took a shot at a talent and missed yet again in round one which is why we are picking fifth and will likely pick early next year too as the team goes throw the trials of a new system, new coaches, and being honest lack of top end talent.
We must get two studs this year in the first round, probowler types and my thinking right now is Gardner and Cross are picked. Cross has probowl pass protect potential in a passing league and you can't pass that up for a pure RT like Neal. Ekwonu goes #4 I think.
Possible, hope it happens, but it's a lot to expect, seeing where he's at now. He'd have to have a different set of priorities. The concern isn't really whether he's able.
The concern is does he want to?
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
Second, the kid does have PHYSICAL talent but lacks the Mental and Emotional maturity to use it to its potential. So many young men have this issue where do I even begin.
Third, sure you listen to offers and a good team late 2nd round may jump in and make an offer on draft day for him HOPING to hit a home run by taking a risk. If a guy is on your board and a team calls you pull the trigger and eat the loss somehow (cap space that is....).
Fourth, most likely we hold onto Toney and hope the veterans and coaches rally around him and get him to "see the light" cause if Toney is a "problem" in camp he likely makes the roster as the 53rd man or is outright cut.
My dream scenario is Five: he wakes up and realizes his potential. At the end of the day only Toney knows what he is going to do and whether he wants it. But clearly if he doesn't want it then it doesn't matter what team he gets on he is a lost cause.
How the hell did we pick him KNOWING he had issues? I think much lake CB Baker we took a shot at a talent and missed yet again in round one which is why we are picking fifth and will likely pick early next year too as the team goes throw the trials of a new system, new coaches, and being honest lack of top end talent.
We must get two studs this year in the first round, probowler types and my thinking right now is Gardner and Cross are picked. Cross has probowl pass protect potential in a passing league and you can't pass that up for a pure RT like Neal. Ekwonu goes #4 I think.
So you're saying they are drafting Cross to play LT and move Thomas to RT? Neal has experience at both OT positions. I don't think Neal will reach #5, but if he's there I would pick him.
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
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Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
When have the Mets ever been irrelevant for decades?
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
As someone else pointed out above, you are literally arguing that the Senior Vice President of Player Personnel has no role in personnel matters... that saying so is some sort of conspiracy theory. And again, he is only one of three people that interviewed all of the candidates, but he's somehow irrelevant.
You can't make this stuff up.
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over the last few months despite many here not believing it would. And likely more coming in that front office after the draft and into the summer months. Maybe some more vets from the roster too if offers improve/materialize.
Schoen, Daboll & Co. now need to show us they are competent at their jobs, and dare I say...good. The mess left behind by that moronic boob of a GM is large but not insurmountable.
Be a grouch, don't be a grouch...whatever. But at least keep bringing the conspiracy theories about Chris Mara, mandates and the like because those at least add some comic relief to these threads...
As someone else pointed out above, you are literally arguing that the Senior Vice President of Player Personnel has no role in personnel matters... that saying so is some sort of conspiracy theory. And again, he is only one of three people that interviewed all of the candidates, but he's somehow irrelevant.
You can't make this stuff up.
No, I said he creates a handful of player evaluations each year that go on their server. And he gets to sit in the interview and draft rooms.
The rest you all are making up...
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
It's not an assumption, its the actual reported words versus guessing games.
And what's the alternative that's worse...Johnny Boy making bad decisions but all by himself?
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How do you know that? Why would you assume that?
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
It's not an assumption, its the actual reported words versus guessing games.
And what's the alternative that's worse...Johnny Boy making bad decisions but all by himself?
If your argument is that John Mara is the bigger problem, then we are on the same page. The buck stops with him.
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
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I'll also remind you of the following Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
I've never said he's the shadow GM...I've never used that phrase before... I am contending that he has a significant role in personnel. And I am arguing that he should not. I would imagine it made Reese, Gettleman, and now Schoen at least somewhat uncomfortable.
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In comment 15676990 Eric from BBI said:
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How do you know that? Why would you assume that?
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
It's not an assumption, its the actual reported words versus guessing games.
And what's the alternative that's worse...Johnny Boy making bad decisions but all by himself?
If your argument is that John Mara is the bigger problem, then we are on the same page. The buck stops with him.
Of course John is a big problem, no question. But that doesn't mean seemingly qualified GMs, scouts, front office people all have to suck at their jobs too. John wasn't telling Gettleman to make all those bad decisions for years. He just doesn't know any better and presumes his GM and HC should...
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In comment 15676993 Eric from BBI said:
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I'll also remind you of the following Steve Tisch saved the Giants from having Chris Mara as GM? - ( New Window )
Classic...so what? We all know John Mara has bad judgment.
And it shouldn't matter that he didn't get that title since its your contention that Chris is acting as shadow GM anyway. All these GMs since have been just doing his will and handling the pressers, right?
I've never said he's the shadow GM...I've never used that phrase before... I am contending that he has a significant role in personnel. And I am arguing that he should not. I would imagine it made Reese, Gettleman, and now Schoen at least somewhat uncomfortable.
There were plenty of guessing remarks made regarding what Chris' role is. I don't know if shadow GM were the exact words used by let's not mince things...that was your sentiment. I will let it go if you say no.
He said the rumors are true that Toney is being shopped.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
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Couldn't find it scrolling. Thanks
He said the rumors are true that Toney is being shopped.
Thank u sir
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Thank you for that explanation. I will take that into account in any future responses from you to me.
However, what you take as a lack of decorum is my visible frustration over the continued insistence by many that all is right in the world now that we have made changes at GM and HC - despite the fact that we have been down this path multiple times in the past decade.
There is a structural problem within this organization, and many simply refuse to want to see it. There are only a few constants here.
Eric - please continue to preach this truth as often and vigilantly as possible. You are not being cynical - you are being realistic. This board needs that from you. We don't need pollyanna, delusional feel-good nonsense. Nothing could be worse than this board turning into a shill for the organization, as have anything being put out by the Giants including Giants Access, The Joe Judge report and soon, I presume, the Brian Daboll report. Absolute nauseating charlatanism that has no place in sports.
This franchise is teetering on the brink of being irrelevant for decades ala the Knicks and Mets... Everyone on this board should be screaming with disgust at the top of their lungs...
As for the Mara's I can still hope they learn something and stick to their jobs. They still need to clear out scouting and petit, methinks. I'm thinking Chris is deballed, but Tim Mcdonell isn't going anywhere. I'm hoping he's more savvy than John.I don't care if abrams stays or goes.
Because the alternative is too painful to contemplate?
Those were all of his decisions, he failed at them, and they are more than enough to hang around his neck for accountability than the litany of others that quite frankly make little sense and often contradict themselves. Like Mara vetoed Parsons but was then somehow the guiding hand behind Toney - who had an actual arrest history.
the football decisions for the past decade are easily traced back to the football people in the positions of authority.
Jerry Reese (and marc ross) drafted and signed triangle athletes who lacked toughness and ignored trenches.
Gettleman drafted and signed hawg mollies but few panned out.
Shurmur and Bettcher brought in FA's with links to their old teams.
Judge and Graham and even Garrett did the same.
In Judge's 2 years 75% of the draft picks had played for coaches on his staff.
and guess what? So far the same is true with Schoen and Daboll - the majority of the players they've added are players they are familiar with. Either Mara finally got a decision right and they will do it better or we will be back in the same position in 2 years.
I'm personally a lot more troubled having to again rely on whether Mara got a rookie gm/coach right than whether or not he's dictating to them who they need to draft or sign.
If they are that weak in their own convictions, with their careers literally at stake, then their weakness is simply a symptom that he once again got their hirings wrong in the first place.
I'm not sure of that only because he has yet to prove he can hire someone good. the odds are strongly against any rookie gm/coach.
i think eric is right when he's said that it can always get worse. is it really so hard to fathom 2 years from now Daboll is out while the cowboys have somehow secured Payton or Harbough and look poised to be a SB contender for another 5-10 year window?
i just think some of the minutiae people get caught up in trying to put on his doorstep is silly and doesn't matter. either he hires the right people or not.
I do think we had a good process. I wanted Dodds from the Colts or one of the Ravens guys. But the process seemed sound.
I'm not sure what you've been reading from me, but I've been pretty negative on EVERYONE associated with the Giants... not just Chris Mara. I've long said there are issues everywhere in the front office (GM, scouting director, scouts, etc.). I also not too long ago said too much was being made of Chris Mara's influence.
But I changed my tune on Chris based on new evidence.... the fact that his brother was considering him for GM.... the fact that he was only one of three people conducting all of the interviews (hell, Tisch wasn't even there in person for many of the interviews).
My contention for months has been is that Chris has more influence than I originally thought. He shouldn't be involved in the process at all. It's not a good look, but more importantly, it can't be ideal for any GM to have a VP of personnel who owns the team hanging over your shoulder. It just can't be.
I do think we had a good process. I wanted Dodds from the Colts or one of the Ravens guys. But the process seemed sound.
the numbers agree - hiring in the NFL is very low proposition. CFB is in theory an easier place to hire than the NFL and even that is very low odds.
there's no major sport where hiring coaches is easy so i think i'm inclined to think almost all successful hires are more luck than skill.
i'd have gone big for Harbough since he was clearly listening and then let him hire whoever he wanted as GM. His run in SF was very Coughlinesque and while he hasn't been a grandslam at UM he made them relevant again. say what you want about him but he wins and this org is so far from winning i think that should have been the #1 priority. head coaches make 2-3x what GMs make, so i think there's actually an argument that the entire paradigm of a GM hiring a HC is a bit backwards if there's an experienced HC available.
i like what schoen and daboll have done so far but winning in the nfl requires more than logical personnel decisions - and that's the lesson most rookie coaches don't seem to get until it's too late.
I'm not sure what you've been reading from me, but I've been pretty negative on EVERYONE associated with the Giants... not just Chris Mara. I've long said there are issues everywhere in the front office (GM, scouting director, scouts, etc.). I also not too long ago said too much was being made of Chris Mara's influence.
But I changed my tune on Chris based on new evidence.... the fact that his brother was considering him for GM.... the fact that he was only one of three people conducting all of the interviews (hell, Tisch wasn't even there in person for many of the interviews).
My contention for months has been is that Chris has more influence than I originally thought. He shouldn't be involved in the process at all. It's not a good look, but more importantly, it can't be ideal for any GM to have a VP of personnel who owns the team hanging over your shoulder. It just can't be.
You're going round and round and it's not getting you anywhere. John's the CEO, Chris takes some SVP Player Personnel title because he wants to be known as a player evaluator and give an impression he is relevant. John sounds like he wants his brother's input on things and that is going to happen whether he is in the building or not. So you can sit and bitch about that all day long (as you have been) but it's not changing as they are owners.
The change that can make a big difference is if somehow these owners finally found somebody decent with their new GM and HC. Anybody of value reports up and into the GM as has been reported so let Schoen make his front office changes to scouting directors, scouts, etc. after the draft and over this next year and put his mark throughout the organization. Going round and round about the Mara brothers is pointless anyway because if Schoen is a strong evaluator of talent and can find a QB at some point the team will start becoming competitive again. And the Mara stuff will fall in line and/or become irrelevant to the fans.
This is getting absurd.
(And I'm the guy who says it can always get worse).
Hoping JS sets the franchise on a path back to restoring what has been missing for a decade.
Hoping JS sets the franchise on a path back to restoring what has been missing for a decade.
I wouldn't say the 2011 championship team had a balanced offense. Actually we were dead last in rushing. We had a great passing attack and a clutch QB. The Oline was serviceable.
We did have impact players on defense. Especially in the playoffs.
It was a unique year. A outstanding WR group and once that fell apart it really exposed the missing physical element on offense and then the OL further deteriorated and the D aged out other than JPP.
He called it an Eddie Spaghetti story lol - ( New Window )
1. they moved away from investing in the trenches
2. the rules changed away from coughlin's strengths to a more pass friendly league and they failed to adjust properly
I think those are 2 very key observations to almost every failure from 2011-2017. Letting the OL degrade, the David Wilson pick, letting Linval Joseph walk, ben 'modern offense' mcadoo, evan engram, and on and on.
in my opinion i dont see either of those 2 things having much to do with mara's influence on the franchise in a different way than he influenced it from 2005-2011. he mostly entrusted the same people and just wasn't strong enough to see how far off-course they'd steered. I personally don't give him an abundance of credit for the success from 2005-2011 as he basically inherited coughlin/reese. but i do find it a little hypocritical to not count those years on one hand but insist he was the reason those guys failed on the other.
1. they moved away from investing in the trenches
2. the rules changed away from coughlin's strengths to a more pass friendly league and they failed to adjust properly
I think those are 2 very key observations to almost every failure from 2011-2017. Letting the OL degrade, the David Wilson pick, letting Linval Joseph walk, ben 'modern offense' mcadoo, evan engram, and on and on.
in my opinion i dont see either of those 2 things having much to do with mara's influence on the franchise in a different way than he influenced it from 2005-2011. he mostly entrusted the same people and just wasn't strong enough to see how far off-course they'd steered. I personally don't give him an abundance of credit for the success from 2005-2011 as he basically inherited coughlin/reese. but i do find it a little hypocritical to not count those years on one hand but insist he was the reason those guys failed on the other.
The DL absolutely but the OL decline was before 2011 it was not great at all that year and a far cry from 2007. itās a miracle Eli survived and thrived but it caught up to him.
Second point is very valid, the Giants antiquated owners and front office were completely lost and still are. Letās hope that just changed